Il sogno della camera rossa: Romanzo cinese del secolo XVIII

by Cao Xueqin, Franz Kuhn (Editor), Clara Bovero (Translator)

"Come il Tao, Ts'ao Hsüeh-ch'in insegue una forma suprema, che insinua il meraviglioso nel banale, il vero nel falso, l'irreale nel reale... e ogni opposto prende il luogo dell'altro in un gioco di riflessi che non ha fine... forse nessun romanziere occidentale possiede l'oggettività di Ts'ao Hsüeh-ch' l'occhio chiaro e comprensivo, che fonde severità e dolcezza nella precisione della giustizia; l'intelligenza che maschera l'implacabilità del fato con la dolcezza soave dei modi. Cosi l'ambizione della letteratura moderna dopo Cechov è stata realizzata in questo libro, in questa cattedrale incompiuta, da un grande artista che diceva di averlo scritto per gioco, per ingannare la noia delle sere piovose." (Pietro Citati)

Genres: China, Fiction, Classics, Chinese Literature, Asia, Literature, Roman

722 pages, Paperback

First published January 1, 1792

About the author

Xueqin Cao (Chinese: 曹雪芹; pinyin: Cáo Xuěqín; Wade–Giles: Ts'ao Hsueh-ch'in, 1715 or 1724 — 1763 or 1764) was the pseudonym of a Qing Dynasty Chinese writer, best known as the author of Dream of the Red Chamber, one of the Four Great Classical Novels of Chinese literature.
It has been suggested that his given name was Zhan Cao (曹霑) and his courtesy name is Mengruan (夢阮; 梦阮; literally "Dream about Ruan" or "Dream of Ruan")[...]

Reviews

[Maren · Rating 4 out of 5]

4,5 Sterne
Eigentlich ein Nachtrag, hatte nicht die Zeit, nochmal mehr als 800 Seiten zu lesen, habe aber die (gute!) Erinnerung "aufgefrischt".
Dieses chinesische Meisterwerk erzählt vom Aufstieg und Niedergang der wohlhabenden Jia-Familie im China des 18. Jahrhunderts.
Im Zentrum steht Baoyu, ein sensibler junger Mann, der sich zwischen seiner kranken, nachdenklichen Cousine Daiyu und der ausgeglicheneren Baochai hin- und hergerissen fühlt.

Der Roman beschreibt mit viel Detail den Alltag, die Feste und die kleinen Konflikte im großen Haushalt.
Gleichzeitig geht es um die Frage, wie flüchtig Glück und Erfolg sind.
Vieles entpuppt sich als schöner Schein.

Wer Interesse an chinesischer Kultur und vielschichtigen Familiengeschichten hat, findet hier ein eindrucksvolles Werk.

[Noah · Rating 4 out of 5]

"Der Traum der roten Kammer" ist eines der berühmtesten Werke der chinesischen Literatur, so unentbehrlich gar, dass es sich - wie in Deutschland Goethes "Faust" seine Beliebtheit durch alle politischen Systeme hindurch erhalten hat und seine Erforschung und Kommentierung heute noch ganze Institute füllt. Aus heutiger Sicht, entbehrt die buddhistische Rahmenhandlung, die an das "Shakuntala" des Kalidasa erinnert, jedweden Reizes. Der Kernroman ist indes aus dreierlei Hinsicht interessant. Zum einen ist er ein unentbehrliches Zeitdokument für das höfische Leben des chinesischen Barock, vergleichbar etwa dem Erkenntnisgehalt von Casanovas Tagebuch für das höfische Leben des Rokoko in Europa. Zum anderen ist es eine klassische Saga vom Abstieg einer Familie, gut vergleichbar den "Buddenbrooks" oder dem "Gottopardo" von Lampedusa. In gewisser Hinsicht ist dieses Werk aber auch eine coming-of-age Novel, voll überspannter jugendlicher Charaktere, die in jedem Missverständnis einen Weltuntergang sehen und sich Wertherhaft nur zu gerne umbringen. Alles in allem sehr lesenswert, auf wenn das Werk ziemliche Längen hat und meine Ausgabe (soweit ersichtlich die einzige vollständige deutsche Ausgabe) von einer sorgfältigen Kommentierung sehr profitiert hätte. Leider fehlt dies bei Diogenes Ausgaben fast immer. Zudem nervt die Diogenes-typische) mikroskopisch kleine Schrift auf zu dünnem Papier.

[Literarischunterwegs · Rating 2 out of 5]

Nach jetzt der Hälfte des Buches, habe ich endgültig aufgegeben und beschlossen, mich nicht weiter damit zu befassen.
Ich finde es sehr schade, da ich einerseits Bücher nur sehr sehr ungerne abbreche und dies auch nur in ganz seltenen Fällen tue und dies auch noch nicht oft getan habe. Aber mit diesem Buch werde ich definitiv nicht mehr warm. Dies finde ich ebenfalls sehr schade, da die Geschichte als solche sehr interessant ist und auch viel Potential hat.
Was mich an dem Buch stört, sind hauptsächlich die vielen Nebensächlichkeiten, die eingebaut und erzählt werden. An manchen Stellen erinnert mich die Erzählweise an Kindererzählungen, die es auch nicht schaffen, auf den Punkt zu kommen. Die eigentliche Aussage versteckt sich hinter zu vielen beschreibenden und nichtssagenden Gedanken. Dies erschwert das Lesen und das in der Handlung bleiben ungemein.
Das zweite ist die Übersetzung, die mich stört. Zum Teil enthält sie wunderschöne Sprachgefüge, aber dann auch wieder Worte oder Gedanken, die befremdlich sind, weil sie eine platte Alltagssprache an den Tag legen, die nicht zur Zeit, nicht zur Situation und schon gar nicht in diese Kultur passen.
Und dabei bietet die Geschichte, wie bereits oben erwähnt, jede Menge Potential in ganzen vielen Bereichen:
- politisch
- spirituell
- philosophisch
- gesellschaftlich
- zwischenmenschlich
- sexuell
- bezüglich des Beziehungsgeflechts: Mann und Frau – Herr und Untergegebener –
Männerfreundschaften …
Der Plot bietet alles. Nur leider kann der Erzähler dies nicht so komprimiert erzählen, dass sich ein Lesefluss beim Leser einstellen kann, der meines Erachtens aber notwendig ist, um der Geschichte auf über 800 Seiten mit Motivation folgen zu wollen.
Mir wurde es beim Lesen der Geschichte immer langweiliger und dadurch verlor ich zunehmend das Interesse an den Personen, den Ereignissen und den Entwicklungen, ganz zu schweigen von den zwischen den Zeilen sicherlich vorhandenen kritischen Gedanken und Aussagen, die ich nicht mehr finden wollte.
Wirklich schade, denn ich hatte mir sehr viel mehr von dieser zu den chinesischen Klassikern zählenden Lektüre versprochen.

[Sara XuHerondale · Rating 4 out of 5]

4 stars
I liked this book a lot! My only drawbacks were the translation (I read it in Croatian), and I wish we had more of Bao Yu and Dai Yu, but it's okay. One of the main plot points is the decaying middle Chinese class, and the slowish degradation of the large wealthy family. But to be completely honest, I enjoyed the love story and it's main character much more. I really liked reading about him and his untraditional behavior, the way he's drawn to women and despises doing "manly work", including politics. One day I will read this novel in Chinese, and I can't wait to see how I will feel about it then.

[Laura Walin · Rating 4 out of 5]

Kirjoja osuu haaviin erilaisia reittejä. Tämä eräästä tietokilpailusta, jossa kysyttiin, mistä teoksesta on painettu eniten fyysisiä kappaleita maailmassa. olihan näin suosittu kirja pakko päästä lukemaan. Ihan autenttisen kokemuksen äärelle tässä ei päästä, sillä saksannoksesta 1950-luvulla tehty suomennos on pituudeltaan noin puolet ja tapahtumien osalta noin 2/3 alkuperäisestä.

Suomennoksen teksti on mukavalla tavalla vanhanaikaista, ja kirjaa lukee kuin satua. On se samalla tietynlainen kasvukertomuskin, kun yksi keskushenkilöistä kasvaa pojasta mieheksi kirjan edetessä. Korruptio vaikuttaa olleen voimissaan ja ihmishenki - varsinkin naisten - varsin halpaa.

Yhtäkaikki Punaisen huoneen uni on mielenkiintoinen kurkistus kiinalaisen ylimystön elämään kolme sataa vuotta sitten. Tekstistä tulee vahvasti mieleen Tuhannen ja yhden yön tarinat, kun seurataan erilaisten naimakauppojen kohtaloa ja palatsin juonitteluja. Henkimaailmakin puuttuu välillä peliin, joskin vähemmän kuin olisin odottanut.

[Joseph Fountain · Rating 3 out of 5]

3 1/2 Stars

Your earthly destiny is fulfilled! Do not delay now, but follow us! ~ Buddhist monk and Taoist priest to Pao Yu

One of China's Four Great Classical Novels

My review of Dream of the Red Chamber

[Roger]

How can one presume to write a review of a book that is considered one of the monuments of Chinese literature? The task is further complicated by the fact that this volume is not just a translation, but a translation of a translation. This version was translated from Chinese to German by Franz Kuhn in the 1930s, and then from German to English in 1958. Also, it’s abridged but it’s still 580 pages of small type. The main character is an adolescent boy belonging to the aristocratic Jia (spelled Chia in this version). His name is Baoyu meaning Precious Jade because he was born with a stone in his mouth. For this reason, the book is also known as The Story of the Stone. The novel chronicles in great detail the daily lives of the idle rich. But the Jia Family is in decline, and as the story progresses, the adversities pile up. It’s worth noting that there is a predominance of female characters, and that servants have a great deal of influence in how events play out. The English prose in this translation is fluid, expressive, and very accessible. Whether or not the translation is accurate, I cannot say, but I would recommend this version to get your feet wet. If you find yourself intrigued, you can commit to David Hawkes’ 2,339 page version.

This translation can be accessed at the following location:
https://archive.org/details/dreamofre...

[Kang · Rating 4 out of 5]

I read (parts of) Hong Lou Meng when I was very young (probably in middle school or maybe early high school); right after I read Monkey, an abridged translation of Xi Yiou Ji. I have no idea if this is the translation I used; I am merely rating the story, and not the translation/editorial apparatus. After this, I was going to read Romance of the Three Kingdoms, but that work proved beyond my ability to read, even in translation. At some point, I am going to have to finally tackle San Guo Yian Yi, which may very well be the greatest book (I had originally written "novel," but that classifies it according to categories foreign to the material, in more than one sense of that word) in Chinese literature. It status in Chinese literature in unparalleled by anything in the West. One would have to combine so-called pragmatic history (some of Herodotus and much, perhaps all, of Thucydides), the historical dramas of Shakespeare, and the great epic novels (such as, most obviously War and Peace), to have an inkling of its place in Chinese culture.

[Eileen O'Donohue · Rating 1 out of 5]

The novel is stillborn, but at least I am more cultured for reading it. The Red Dust story was recommended to me because I like symbolism in literature. I found it funny that Pao-yu's father means false and true, or perhaps that could mean his father's whole name means half-truth. Clever. The only down fall, is everything else in this book. Pao-yu is put on a lame pedestal and makes advances on all the women; the women behave bratty and sucidial, because every woman is for herself; and Lotus is only in the picture to have the worst happen to her in the beginning, and the worst to happen to her in the end.

[Obione_TdG · Rating 3 out of 5]

Le premesse dicevano che sarebbe stato il piu' grande romanzo della letteratura cinese (o almeno uno dei migliori). Ma la trama non era poi cosi' coinvolgente, sinceramente ci si aspettava molto di piu'.

[Cathy · Rating 4 out of 5]

One of the Four Great Classics. I read the children's version when I was little, with some nice pictures and a very simplified storyline. Although the English version is also a simplified version, I'm glad I got to know more about the characters and the story!

[Melody Chang · Rating 5 out of 5]

i like this book because it cut deeply into the complex facets of human beings.

[Daniela Underheaven · Rating 5 out of 5]

Ho letto Il sogno della camera rossa perché è un classico, e recensirlo non è semplice. È una lettura lenta, quasi ipnotica, che alterna momenti di lirismo e introspezione a scene di vita quotidiana dell’aristocrazia cinese del XVIII secolo.

C’è un lato esoterico e onirico che attraversa tutto il romanzo: sogni, presagi, simboli, che sembrano guidare i destini dei personaggi. Alcune figure restano impresse, come Lin Daiyu, che si vittimizza in maniera così patetica da diventare quasi affascinante nella sua costanza.

Il libro apre una prospettiva sulla morte, sull’onore, sui rapporti di potere, sul ruolo del denaro e su come veniva gestito (o sprecato) in una società rigidamente gerarchica. La lentezza dell’azione non è un difetto, ma un riflesso del tempo e della mentalità dell’epoca: un mondo in cui anche la sofferenza, le gioie e le perdite si consumano lentamente, e dove il ricordo dei morti continua a influenzare le vite dei vivi.

Dopo che Shogun mi aveva fatto amare la cultura giapponese di un tempo, ho voluto avvicinarmi a quella cinese. Non so se lo consiglierei a tutti, ma per me è stato un tassello importante per capire un mondo lontano, non solo nello spazio e nel tempo, ma anche nello spirito.

⸻

🇬🇧

I read Dream of the Red Chamber because it’s a classic, and it’s not an easy book to review. It’s a slow, almost hypnotic read, alternating between moments of lyrical introspection and glimpses into the daily life of 18th-century Chinese aristocracy.

There’s an esoteric, dreamlike undercurrent running through the novel: dreams, omens, and symbols that seem to shape the characters’ fates. Some figures stand out, like Lin Daiyu, who victimizes herself in such a pitiful yet strangely captivating way.

The book offers a perspective on death, honor, power dynamics, and the role – and often the waste – of money in a strictly hierarchical society. The slowness of the action isn’t a flaw but a reflection of the time and mindset of the era: a world where joys, sorrows, and losses unfold at a measured pace, and where the memory of the dead continues to shape the lives of the living.

After Shogun inspired me to appreciate the Japanese culture of the past, I wanted to explore the Chinese one as well. I’m not sure I’d recommend it to everyone, but for me, it was an important step in understanding a world distant not just in space and time, but also in spirit.

[Kai Weber · Rating 5 out of 5]

In the face of this pinnacle of Chinese literature and culture and the voluminous research by specialized scholars I am too timid to say anything about the work itself here in a spontaneous little Goodreads review. It is certainly a must-read for anyone interested in Chinese literature, history, and culture, and it is well worth it. Furthermore this work deserves a higher recognition in the canons of world literature.
What I want to speak about a little more here is the particular German translation by Franz Kuhn. It is not only the first German translation, but also the first "complete" translation in any Western language. The term "complete" has to be taken with a grain of salt, though, as this is a subject of heated debate. Kuhn himself admits in his afterword that he left away some side tracks of the story, but claims to have translated five sixth of the work. The German Wikipedia article claims that only one third has been translated by Kuhn. When talking about this matter, we need to consider what it means to translate. If a translator is losing her/his occupational title when she/he sums up some passages, then Christoph Martin Wieland did not translate William Shakespeare. While reading Franz Kuhn's version of the Hong Lou Meng, I watched the Chinese TV series from 2010 and the missing pieces in Kuhn's book were really much closer to one sixth than to two third. So: the plot is nearly all covered, the reader just cannot expect the way the plot is presented to be too closely following the presentation in the Chinese original.
Another point of consideration is Kuhn's diction. It probably already sounded very outdated in 1932, when it was first published. But then again this is a novel written in the second half of the 18th century, and to use 18th century style German sounds quite appropriate to me.
Overall I do think the claim is justified: It's the first Western translation that allowed European readers to get a good impression on classical Chinese literature and Chinese life in Ming and/or Qing dynasties. It is still well worth reading today.

[Góczán Judit · Rating 4 out of 5]

Mindig izgalmas élmény más kultúrából származó történeteket meghallgatni, elolvasni. Főleg, ha nem csak a tér, hanem az idő is olyan távol van az itt és mosttól. Regénynek tűnő alkotás, de a sok szereplővel, rengeteg történettel inkább novella-füzérnek tekinthető. Olyan nagyszámú szereplő-gárdája van és olyan sok szálon futnak az események, hogy egy brazil szappanopera is megirigyelhetné a fordulatokat. (Lehet, hogy innét vették az ötletet?)
Nagy kaland az óriási kínai kultúrával megismerkedni. Szokások és hagyományok, az új és a régi keveredése... Bámulatos részletességgel ismerhetjük meg a főúri szokásokat, a családi élet rituáléit, a különböző társadalmi osztályok egymásra utaltságát, a hivatalos gyógyítók és a kuruzslók tevékenységét, a sokféle vallás és hit-elem keveredését.
A történet azonban kevés lehetőséget ad a harmonikus családi élet bemutatására. Ezért rideg egy kissé a családtagok viszonya, kevés a tiszta, szeretetteljes megnyilvánulásokra utaló magatartás akár a házastársak, akár a szülő-gyermek párosok között.

[Ann Klefstad · Rating 5 out of 5]

A very great work, but chatty and personal in all its greatness. Full of wonderful small stories and sharply observed social turns. Jane Austen in China, somehow joined at the hip with Chekhov. The story of the farm woman who had all her life lived in fear of falling into poverty and losing the farm, now a beggar on the street, speaking about what a relief it was not to fear it any more. Not minimizing the misery, but able to seize on the relief of life in the present moment . . . there's a full-blooded gutsiness to this book. It acknowledges what kinds of creatures we are, we humans, the whole damn range.

[Czar · Rating 4 out of 5]

Beautiful ending with interesting stories combined into a lengthy masterpiece of a novel. The story is often tragic yet inspiring and very long, somehow, I managed to get through the entire book thanks to being bored to death in Chemistry class.

I do not recommend the translation by Florence and Isabel McHugh, do not read that edition unless you want to be bored to death by lengthy and overbearing descriptions.

[Jessica · Rating 1 out of 5]

Couldn't ever get through it, and as hard as I try I don't think I'll ever go back.

[Sebastian]

Ich habe ein Buch bei BookCrossing.com registriert!
http://www.BookCrossing.com/journal/11329671

[Manu Db · Rating 5 out of 5]

Un capolavoro, sopratutto i capitoli finali.

[貝晨珊 · Rating 4 out of 5]

The last 200 pages made up for whatever confusing and sometimes boring mess happened in the first 600??!?!?

[Vitschne · Rating 5 out of 5]

Die chinesischen Buddenbrooks, Der Pate und Die Brüder Karamasow in einem, genial! Schreckhaftes Erwachen!

[Gas · Rating 4 out of 5]

Un mondo completamente diverso