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Dante Valentine #5
To Hell and Back
The pulse-pounding finale to Lilith Saintcrow's urban fantasy series featuring Dante Valentine.
Dante Valentine has been through Hell. Literally. Her body shattered and her mind not far behind, she's dumped back into her own world to survive--or not--as a pawn in one of Lucifer's endless games.
Unfortunately, he's just messed with the wrong Necromance. And this time she's mad enough to do something about it.
This time, the Devil will pay.
Dante Valentine has been through Hell. Literally. Her body shattered and her mind not far behind, she's dumped back into her own world to survive--or not--as a pawn in one of Lucifer's endless games.
Unfortunately, he's just messed with the wrong Necromance. And this time she's mad enough to do something about it.
This time, the Devil will pay.
416 pages, Paperback
First published January 1, 2008
38 people are currently reading
1690 people want to read
About the author
Lilith Saintcrow
132 books4,512 followersLilith Saintcrow was born in New Mexico, bounced around the world as a child, and fell in love with writing stories when she was ten years old. She and her library co-habitate in Vancouver, Washington.
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Displaying 1 - 30 of 234 reviews
August 17, 2008
I was attracted to this series because I wanted to see how Saintcrow would blend science with magic in her fiction. She did a great job with that, really from beginning to end.
Her characterizations though, especially of the main character became difficult to stand. It began to seem too much that Saintcrow was working through personal problems through her characters. Too many reactions seemed to come from left field. Additionally, it became hard to maintain identification with character that never stops whining. Talk about high maintanance!
Finally, the tone of the books changed from the promising one of a tough, capable, albeit sarcastic heroine, battling evil from a difficult position to a brokendown, bitter person with conflicted love issues.
To have a promising science fiction series morph into a meandering romance story was a huge disappointment.
Her characterizations though, especially of the main character became difficult to stand. It began to seem too much that Saintcrow was working through personal problems through her characters. Too many reactions seemed to come from left field. Additionally, it became hard to maintain identification with character that never stops whining. Talk about high maintanance!
Finally, the tone of the books changed from the promising one of a tough, capable, albeit sarcastic heroine, battling evil from a difficult position to a brokendown, bitter person with conflicted love issues.
To have a promising science fiction series morph into a meandering romance story was a huge disappointment.
This entire review has been hidden because of spoilers.
September 1, 2018
Lots of action right from the first page, scrambling up from hell and into Jersey.
I know. Not much of an improvement, but at least she has friends.
This is the last book and it's all about getting herself and Jeph out of the position they find themselves in. Lucifer has a rival. And then there are two rivals. All in all, between the growing factions, the action, and the culmination, it's a pretty fun book. We knew this was where it was headed since the first book. A showdown against the devil.
And this is what we got.
My only complaint was the super rushed end. You know, the wrap-up. It's rather unsatisfying even though the end action was quite decent.
Is it enough to lose another star, though? No... I'm still quite happy and pleased with how it turned out, romance and constant betrayal and all. This is, after, demons we're dealing with. :)
I know. Not much of an improvement, but at least she has friends.
This is the last book and it's all about getting herself and Jeph out of the position they find themselves in. Lucifer has a rival. And then there are two rivals. All in all, between the growing factions, the action, and the culmination, it's a pretty fun book. We knew this was where it was headed since the first book. A showdown against the devil.
And this is what we got.
My only complaint was the super rushed end. You know, the wrap-up. It's rather unsatisfying even though the end action was quite decent.
Is it enough to lose another star, though? No... I'm still quite happy and pleased with how it turned out, romance and constant betrayal and all. This is, after, demons we're dealing with. :)
January 8, 2008
This book was not that great, and honestly, was more frustrating than anything else. The main character spent the majority of the time just jumping to the wrong conclusions and misunderstanding things. Normally that wouldn't bother me, except the book was written in 1st person view, and from the information the main character had, I would tell what was going on and what she should have done--but I couldn't understand why she jumped to the conclusions she did. I'm sure the author would claim it's because the character's mind is not all there/healed/whatever, but frankly, this character did the same sort of nonsense for the past three books.
If I were to suggest this series to anyone, I would suggest that they only read the first book and perhaps the second.
If I were to suggest this series to anyone, I would suggest that they only read the first book and perhaps the second.
August 15, 2008
I really enjoyed the first book in the series, the second was all right, but everything went downhill from there. What started out as a smart and tough protagonist ended up a traumatized, battered, weak moron, for all that she had the means to be smart right at her fingertips. The courses of action she should have taken were obvious to apparently everyone BUT Dante Valentine, and after three books' worth of this waffling crap, I was just ready for it to be over. It was tiring more than it was entertaining, but to Lilith Saintcrow's credit, the framework she laid down in books one and two was enough to keep me reading in order to find out once and for all what happened. Thank God, though, there's not a sixth book. I don't think I could've taken it.
January 7, 2015
This series had such promise. It started off well with a fast paced tale of a necromance on a quest against all odds to complete an assignment for the Devil and avenge her dead friend and, as it turns out in later books, lover. Dante was the kind of no nonsense, tough and practical heroine that, if not necessarily easy to like, at least does not get on your nerves immediately. Japhrimel was the enigmatic and surprisingly likeable (despite his radioactive eyes) demon assigned as Dante's familiar to help her on her task. And the endless repetition was easy to forgive due to the fantastic world-building.
This is a truly fascinating world that Ms Saintcrow has created. One that I have not seen before. Slicboards, hovercraft, plasguns, datbands and other sci-fi attributes here co-exist with shamans, demons, vampires (Nichtvren), werewolves (werecain), gods, magi and so on. It is a futuristic dystopian world that was transformed due to the insurgence (referred to as the Awakening) in the number of people with psionic abilities and the gradual exploration, acceptance (all be it reluctant and grudging) and development of those abilities and there is political social and economic history and theory to underpin this world which is glimpsed as the story unfolds.
HOWEVER
I guess my biggest problem with this series is that Saintcrow takes a strong and independent female character and, essentially, destroys her, for no good reason whatsoever. A journey of empowerment and self-discovery this is not. Dante gets attacked, mind-raped, controlled, manipulated, restrained, subdued, eviscerated and so on (she even has a hovercraft smash into her and blow up!) until all that is left is a hollow shell of a person, unable to interpret anything logically or to trust anyone, barely able to function at all amid the nightmares and the shock of her experiences. And there is no bigger message on the nature of war or oppression or anything meaningful to justify this. There is no greater good that is achieved through her suffering. Dante is merely a pawn, of Lucifer, Japhrimel, Eve, basically anyone who has the slightest inclination to try to manipulate her, in a game that is not her own, is barely relevant to her at all bar her relationship with Japhrimel and .
Combine that with the problematic nature of the relationship between the two protagonists (much of the manipulation, control and damage that Dante suffers is a result of Japhrimel's actions and, I am sorry, but I will act in what I deem to be your best interests, whether you will or not, while keeping you in the dark about everything that's going on, controlling everything that you do and physically overpowering you whenever I deem necessary and I am justified in doing so because I love you, I protect you and I know best just does not cut it for mes an excuse) and the mind-numbing repetitiveness of the writing and, I'm afraid, the main feeling that I am left with about this series is disappointment. It could have been so much more, but it just wasn't.
This is a truly fascinating world that Ms Saintcrow has created. One that I have not seen before. Slicboards, hovercraft, plasguns, datbands and other sci-fi attributes here co-exist with shamans, demons, vampires (Nichtvren), werewolves (werecain), gods, magi and so on. It is a futuristic dystopian world that was transformed due to the insurgence (referred to as the Awakening) in the number of people with psionic abilities and the gradual exploration, acceptance (all be it reluctant and grudging) and development of those abilities and there is political social and economic history and theory to underpin this world which is glimpsed as the story unfolds.
HOWEVER
I guess my biggest problem with this series is that Saintcrow takes a strong and independent female character and, essentially, destroys her, for no good reason whatsoever. A journey of empowerment and self-discovery this is not. Dante gets attacked, mind-raped, controlled, manipulated, restrained, subdued, eviscerated and so on (she even has a hovercraft smash into her and blow up!) until all that is left is a hollow shell of a person, unable to interpret anything logically or to trust anyone, barely able to function at all amid the nightmares and the shock of her experiences. And there is no bigger message on the nature of war or oppression or anything meaningful to justify this. There is no greater good that is achieved through her suffering. Dante is merely a pawn, of Lucifer, Japhrimel, Eve, basically anyone who has the slightest inclination to try to manipulate her, in a game that is not her own, is barely relevant to her at all bar her relationship with Japhrimel and .
Combine that with the problematic nature of the relationship between the two protagonists (much of the manipulation, control and damage that Dante suffers is a result of Japhrimel's actions and, I am sorry, but I will act in what I deem to be your best interests, whether you will or not, while keeping you in the dark about everything that's going on, controlling everything that you do and physically overpowering you whenever I deem necessary and I am justified in doing so because I love you, I protect you and I know best just does not cut it for mes an excuse) and the mind-numbing repetitiveness of the writing and, I'm afraid, the main feeling that I am left with about this series is disappointment. It could have been so much more, but it just wasn't.
January 29, 2016
Book 5, the last blessed book, in the Dante Valentine series. I found myself skimming A LOT in the this book. I just wanted to see what happened. The writing is frustrating, the characters are frustrating, the action scenes are too detailed. It was an ok-ish resolution for the main story line, but so many side stories were just left hanging. Eh. Kind of frustrated with myself for wasting so much time on it. And annoyed that I just couldn't put these books down and walk away - I just had to know how it all ended. Grrr.
February 12, 2009
I admit, I read through the Dante Valentine series because I was interested enough in Dante and her world, but as the books progressed, I grew more and more annoyed with Dante's character. Dante is so self-involved, and whole chapters are dedicated to the dragging step-by-step detailing of her emotions that everything else gets lost, including an interesting plot, and the same details about world-building get repeated over and over again. By the end, I wasn't satisfied with the conclusion at all, because of the tendency for the climactic scenes to always be just a tad bit too unclear or unexplained for my taste. I won't be trying any of her new books.
March 17, 2015
More dead than alive Dante escapes Hell and can´t remember anything what had happened to her. Japhrimel is furious and declares war to Lucifer and Eve and promises to help Dante to kill the Devil...
This last book in this series is full of action and fights, plots and counterplots and Dante´s getting more and more violent. She also questions Japh´s loyality (honestly when did she not?) but at least they find to a sort of truce and Dante tries to hold back her rage not to loose all her humanity. What "I" started to question was how Danny could go on and fight constantly - broken, battered, without much sleep and food as she was, even with her demon altered body it was a bit unrealitic in my opinion. Her obsession with Eve increases to new highs she isn´t able to listen to reasons anymore that maybe she´s only a pawn in Eve´s game of power too. When Dante isn´t my favorite character in this books Japh is. We learn more about what it truly means to be a Fallen and we learn how vulnerable he is regarding his Hedaira. A second complaint is I think there was too little romance in this book (yes I´m a sucker for it) I would have like to read about some more tender moments between Dante and Japh, I know they love each other but I´d wished for a bit more prove..sigh! And there are still some questions unanswered and left me wondering e.g. whtat about Eve? Is she really Dante´s daughter? Are things really resolved between Japh and Danny? What about Lucas the Deathless? I would have loved to learn more about the reasons the gods deny him death. It seems to me the questions were deliberately not answered to have a reason to go back sometime in the future to a sixth book in this series. I´d love that, I admit. But for now I have to say goodbye to Danny and Japh. The books were worth the time I spent reading them and I don´t regret doing so although my frustration with Danny´s characterization was sometimes palpable and I wanted to throw the book against the wall more than once but I always picked it up again to read more... what speaks for the author, doesn´t it??
Website of the author: http://www.lilithsaintcrow.com/journal/
This last book in this series is full of action and fights, plots and counterplots and Dante´s getting more and more violent. She also questions Japh´s loyality (honestly when did she not?) but at least they find to a sort of truce and Dante tries to hold back her rage not to loose all her humanity. What "I" started to question was how Danny could go on and fight constantly - broken, battered, without much sleep and food as she was, even with her demon altered body it was a bit unrealitic in my opinion. Her obsession with Eve increases to new highs she isn´t able to listen to reasons anymore that maybe she´s only a pawn in Eve´s game of power too. When Dante isn´t my favorite character in this books Japh is. We learn more about what it truly means to be a Fallen and we learn how vulnerable he is regarding his Hedaira. A second complaint is I think there was too little romance in this book (yes I´m a sucker for it) I would have like to read about some more tender moments between Dante and Japh, I know they love each other but I´d wished for a bit more prove..sigh! And there are still some questions unanswered and left me wondering e.g. whtat about Eve? Is she really Dante´s daughter? Are things really resolved between Japh and Danny? What about Lucas the Deathless? I would have loved to learn more about the reasons the gods deny him death. It seems to me the questions were deliberately not answered to have a reason to go back sometime in the future to a sixth book in this series. I´d love that, I admit. But for now I have to say goodbye to Danny and Japh. The books were worth the time I spent reading them and I don´t regret doing so although my frustration with Danny´s characterization was sometimes palpable and I wanted to throw the book against the wall more than once but I always picked it up again to read more... what speaks for the author, doesn´t it??
Website of the author: http://www.lilithsaintcrow.com/journal/
January 27, 2016
After how much I hated Dante in the last book, I was pleased to see she’s mainly – and I mean, mainly – decent in this one. She does come across at the end as the very unlikeable protagonist again. Seriously, I dislike her so much. With her IQ and personality, don’t see how she can keep anyone in her life. The ending really irritated me until the epilogue. Dante is a rage filled, moronic, selfish person who does so much without thinking about it first and the blindly accepts kindness from people around her who are actually more decent than she is.
This book is a bit better than the other because the story is a good one, some of the angst is shaken off to deal with plot and story. Tension is high and stakes are driven up. There is an epic ending battle. I just wanted to laugh in Dante’s face and say haha! See, everyone knew this very obvious thing in all the books except YOU, it was SOOOO obvious. Grrrr.
And finally at the last page you see there really isn’t much left for her to know about what she’s become – the thing she’s been whining about for three books almost non-stop. She knew everything already so we had all that unneeded angst for nothing. For the love of reading, WHY did the author put me through that then, WHY?
Why a decent rating then? Well, this book was hard to put down. I have invested in all the books so I wanted to finish it to the finale, which was a good one. The ride in this book was decent with discoveries, travels, and trials. Angst is slightly less so this is a pleasant surprise. Well, until the last half (sigh)
Overall the ending is nice and this is worth it to finish the series if you’ve read it thus far. I’m glad I read the series overall but ended up disliking it much more than liking it when it was all said and done. The first book or so filled me with excitement, but the last three filled me with annoyance and frustration. Weird mix from a book series.
This book is a bit better than the other because the story is a good one, some of the angst is shaken off to deal with plot and story. Tension is high and stakes are driven up. There is an epic ending battle. I just wanted to laugh in Dante’s face and say haha! See, everyone knew this very obvious thing in all the books except YOU, it was SOOOO obvious. Grrrr.
And finally at the last page you see there really isn’t much left for her to know about what she’s become – the thing she’s been whining about for three books almost non-stop. She knew everything already so we had all that unneeded angst for nothing. For the love of reading, WHY did the author put me through that then, WHY?
Why a decent rating then? Well, this book was hard to put down. I have invested in all the books so I wanted to finish it to the finale, which was a good one. The ride in this book was decent with discoveries, travels, and trials. Angst is slightly less so this is a pleasant surprise. Well, until the last half (sigh)
Overall the ending is nice and this is worth it to finish the series if you’ve read it thus far. I’m glad I read the series overall but ended up disliking it much more than liking it when it was all said and done. The first book or so filled me with excitement, but the last three filled me with annoyance and frustration. Weird mix from a book series.
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March 14, 2015urban fantasy without the gloss
Urban fantasy follows a known trajectory most times, particularly the romance variation. There's a connection between a human female and some version of an alien male, sometimes an actual alien and other times simply alien as in other. The male is insufferable, manipulative and abusive. The woman is strong but succumbs because deep down she wants to be held by the strength of a strong man. The abuse and manipulation is ignored for safety. There's variations on this but essentially most cover over the horrific connection with heaps of romantic cliches.
This story take that premise and removes the cliches, at least most of them. Gone is love conquering all. Gone is redemption. Gone is overlooking abuse. This is brutal unmitigated destruction at every level imaginable. What would truly happen in a human/alien union with such a ridiculous difference in power and a lack of understanding? What would happen if the manipulation and abuse were not falsely diminished by emotionalism?
The answer is this series. The sheer scope of the lies and manipulation and abuse are not removed. They come into fruition and death results. Dante is not a strong woman in love with a redeemed hero, she is a strong woman who walks forward despite being shattered. There's a lesson there, perhaps, but it's not one feel good about when reading.
Urban fantasy follows a known trajectory most times, particularly the romance variation. There's a connection between a human female and some version of an alien male, sometimes an actual alien and other times simply alien as in other. The male is insufferable, manipulative and abusive. The woman is strong but succumbs because deep down she wants to be held by the strength of a strong man. The abuse and manipulation is ignored for safety. There's variations on this but essentially most cover over the horrific connection with heaps of romantic cliches.
This story take that premise and removes the cliches, at least most of them. Gone is love conquering all. Gone is redemption. Gone is overlooking abuse. This is brutal unmitigated destruction at every level imaginable. What would truly happen in a human/alien union with such a ridiculous difference in power and a lack of understanding? What would happen if the manipulation and abuse were not falsely diminished by emotionalism?
The answer is this series. The sheer scope of the lies and manipulation and abuse are not removed. They come into fruition and death results. Dante is not a strong woman in love with a redeemed hero, she is a strong woman who walks forward despite being shattered. There's a lesson there, perhaps, but it's not one feel good about when reading.
August 29, 2024
So listening to this series has been like looking in a window on the most toxic, codependent relationship ever where the two participants get no joy out of it whatsoever. I know novels like this and Anita Blake were trailblazers for seeing strong female leads un urban fantasy and while I can appreciate their place in literary history, I have learned that I don't really like them, even if they are a product of their time and circumstance.
April 19, 2011
You know it’s not a good sign when you’re super glad a series ends. This series had such potential. The world Saintcrow built is great and the secondary characters are interesting. Good pacing. Honestly, after book five, those are about the nicest thing I can say about it.
By the end, I just wanted all the main characters dead and the book over. Dead. Dead. DEAD. I even know how it should have ended. Dante kills the Devil. Japh kills Eve. Dante gets mad and kills Japh. Then she kills herself over the guilt. The End. *sigh* I wish. Speaking of, the ending was completely unsatisfactory. It wasn’t quite “it was all a dream” or “the narrator’s in a psych ward.” But, it was definitely inadequate.
I won’t be reading any more of this author’s books because of her annoying writing quirks. Saintcrow is seemingly incapable of writing solid, uninterrupted dialogue. She is also unbelievably repetitive. Books one and two have a disturbing amount of nipples hardening in anticipation of battle. Book five must have used the nickname “Sunshine” about six billion times. If you cut out all the repetitive parts in books three through five, you would be left with a nice little novella.
By the end, I just wanted all the main characters dead and the book over. Dead. Dead. DEAD. I even know how it should have ended. Dante kills the Devil. Japh kills Eve. Dante gets mad and kills Japh. Then she kills herself over the guilt. The End. *sigh* I wish. Speaking of, the ending was completely unsatisfactory. It wasn’t quite “it was all a dream” or “the narrator’s in a psych ward.” But, it was definitely inadequate.
I won’t be reading any more of this author’s books because of her annoying writing quirks. Saintcrow is seemingly incapable of writing solid, uninterrupted dialogue. She is also unbelievably repetitive. Books one and two have a disturbing amount of nipples hardening in anticipation of battle. Book five must have used the nickname “Sunshine” about six billion times. If you cut out all the repetitive parts in books three through five, you would be left with a nice little novella.
November 28, 2008
Less than satisfying last 5 pages, thus the lack of 5 stars. Otherwise, really good book. I enjoyed this series immensely despite the main character sometimes (frequently actually) being hyper neurotic and annoying as crap. Still LOVED them, how weird is that?
June 16, 2009
I ended up skimming much of this book. The character, who I liked so much in the first book, was just so INCREDIBLY stupid. So stupid.
January 30, 2016
Ugh. RANT AHEAD
“I will lie to keep you safe. I will lie to save you pain. I will lie to ease your mind, and I will lie so you may be certain of me."
No. No. NO!
Does he even hear himself? I will lie so you may be certain of me? What the f—? It doesn't even make sense.
Japh, you're not an idiot. After four books, you can see the whole lying thing isn't working. So hey, yah know what, how about we try something new? Something wacky, waaaay out there, like TELLING THE TRUTH! Or, hell, I don't know, maybe answering one damn question. Give us something! Anything!
Finally, in book 5, Japh is suddenly able to answer questions instead of avoiding them, and once he does start talking, he becomes more likeable. Oh, right, the prophecy, the key. Hey, NEWSFLASH Japh, if you had told Dante any of this we could have saved ourselves a whole lot of nonsense.
And yeah, I get that the author is dragging it out t keep readers reading (I bought the entire series, so it worked on me) but it doesn't feel fair. We're not given anything. And then, inexplicably, ta-dah, the last book... But by then, it's just too late and anticlimactic.
This entire series is one massive whiplashing tease.
Dante's typical thoughts from any chapter:
Japh is bad, he's evil, he lies, he sneaks out when I need him the most, he's abusive and controlling. I hate him.
Japh I need you, you're the only one who understands me, we're the same, I don't know why I ever doubted you, I LOVE you!
Japh, you SOB, this is WAR.
Wait, did I say it was war? Oh, wait, silly me. That was then. Everything has changed now. I need you.
Japh, you motherf*cking demon, I'll kill you...
Four books of this backward-forward silliness. FOUR BOOKS! (She doesn't do this in Book 1) It wouldn't have been so bad if Dante stuck with her decision, so we, as the reader, can get behind her, but she changes her mind every damn chapter. And the same can be said for Eve, and pretty much all the characters around her. FFS. By the end of the five books I had no idea what was going on, who trusted who, who was working for whom.
By the end of the series, it had all just worn me down to beyond the point of caring.
Then there's Dante herself. She goes through the wringer, she's broken, spent, changed beyond recognition, but she never really becomes a kick-ass character we can get behind. She's pushed from pillar to post, abused, bullied, and yet she still makes the same stupid decisions over and over. The internal angst would have been worth it if we got our ass-kicking payoff, but it never really happens. It feels as though the author didn't know where she was going with the characters, and so we got this meandering, flip-flop of motivations that ends up as a head-spinning train wreck.
It gets two stars. Goodreads rating of 'It's okay'.
My advice for any new readers to this series? Stop at book 1. Save yourself the RAGE. It's not fun.
“I will lie to keep you safe. I will lie to save you pain. I will lie to ease your mind, and I will lie so you may be certain of me."
No. No. NO!
Does he even hear himself? I will lie so you may be certain of me? What the f—? It doesn't even make sense.
Japh, you're not an idiot. After four books, you can see the whole lying thing isn't working. So hey, yah know what, how about we try something new? Something wacky, waaaay out there, like TELLING THE TRUTH! Or, hell, I don't know, maybe answering one damn question. Give us something! Anything!
Finally, in book 5, Japh is suddenly able to answer questions instead of avoiding them, and once he does start talking, he becomes more likeable. Oh, right, the prophecy, the key. Hey, NEWSFLASH Japh, if you had told Dante any of this we could have saved ourselves a whole lot of nonsense.
And yeah, I get that the author is dragging it out t keep readers reading (I bought the entire series, so it worked on me) but it doesn't feel fair. We're not given anything. And then, inexplicably, ta-dah, the last book... But by then, it's just too late and anticlimactic.
This entire series is one massive whiplashing tease.
Dante's typical thoughts from any chapter:
Japh is bad, he's evil, he lies, he sneaks out when I need him the most, he's abusive and controlling. I hate him.
Japh I need you, you're the only one who understands me, we're the same, I don't know why I ever doubted you, I LOVE you!
Japh, you SOB, this is WAR.
Wait, did I say it was war? Oh, wait, silly me. That was then. Everything has changed now. I need you.
Japh, you motherf*cking demon, I'll kill you...
Four books of this backward-forward silliness. FOUR BOOKS! (She doesn't do this in Book 1) It wouldn't have been so bad if Dante stuck with her decision, so we, as the reader, can get behind her, but she changes her mind every damn chapter. And the same can be said for Eve, and pretty much all the characters around her. FFS. By the end of the five books I had no idea what was going on, who trusted who, who was working for whom.
By the end of the series, it had all just worn me down to beyond the point of caring.
Then there's Dante herself. She goes through the wringer, she's broken, spent, changed beyond recognition, but she never really becomes a kick-ass character we can get behind. She's pushed from pillar to post, abused, bullied, and yet she still makes the same stupid decisions over and over. The internal angst would have been worth it if we got our ass-kicking payoff, but it never really happens. It feels as though the author didn't know where she was going with the characters, and so we got this meandering, flip-flop of motivations that ends up as a head-spinning train wreck.
It gets two stars. Goodreads rating of 'It's okay'.
My advice for any new readers to this series? Stop at book 1. Save yourself the RAGE. It's not fun.
January 31, 2010
5 books and the last 4 were..
FRUSTRATION LIKE BEATING MY HEAD AGAINST A WALL!!!
I like to read books to relax and sometimes escape the everyday, but these books made me vibrate with annoyance and frustration. I really wanted to love them. I purchased the entire series based on how much I loved the first book, now I wish I had just checked them out from the library.
The writing isn't bad, just repetitious. Dante relives and repeats moments over and over and over again. The beginning of every chapter is a history lesson in the world that she lives in. I like world building when there is a payoff. But this world building was just descriptive, things that a writer needs to know to write, but not that I needed to know to read. I would have enjoyed it just as much without.
Dante is a flawed character. And while I usually root for that, I found myself cringing at every turn. She got played like a puppet and spent a lot of time mistrusting the ones around her that actually cared what happened to.
Dante seems to be trying to fix her past by making alliances with people (or demons) she doesn't really know. Eve- because she believes that she might be the daughter of her dead lover and possibly hers as well. Leanders who ends up betraying her reminded her of Jace... She clung to the familiar so hard she seemed to miss the fact that things were changing and the only person that seemed to actually care what happens to her is the one she keeps betraying and pushing away.
She seemed ok with the realtionship in the earlier books, when she believed that she was the one in charge and that he had to do what she said. Once she realized that he was actually more powerful, that's when the real problems began. He wanted to protect her and she resented him. He tried to let her make some choices and she ended up almost dead. He bargained for her life and she felt betrayed.
For all her talk of betrayal she seemed to forget that Japh was the only one that continued to keep her alive. And she turned on him every chance she got... yet he never stopped fighting for her. She spent a lot of time forgiving Eve because because she thought she was important, which she wasn't. Eve used her, and in the end I felt unsatisfied. The epilogue attempted to wrap everything up, but what I really needed was about 2 more chapters where I actually hear Dante say out loud that she was wrong. That she should have trusted Japh and that maybe just maybe she didn't always know best. I also needed to know that she has come to terms with being what she is and has loosened her white knuckle grip on what she used to be and who she used to be in a relationship with. I mean the relationship between her and Japh was crowded with ex-lovers I'm surprised there was room for him.. And the more curious part of me wanted some of the answers that I thought I'd get like what exactly are Vann, McKinley and Lucas. What's the deal with McKinley's hand? What did Lucas do to become deathless? Why was she dreaming about Jace?
END OF SPOILERS
In the end I think it was an ok series, not relaxing and not really anything I would enjoy ever re-reading. It's over and I think it needs to stay that way. I think some day I might try Lilith Saintcrow's Jill Kismet series, but that day is not in the near future.
FRUSTRATION LIKE BEATING MY HEAD AGAINST A WALL!!!
I like to read books to relax and sometimes escape the everyday, but these books made me vibrate with annoyance and frustration. I really wanted to love them. I purchased the entire series based on how much I loved the first book, now I wish I had just checked them out from the library.
The writing isn't bad, just repetitious. Dante relives and repeats moments over and over and over again. The beginning of every chapter is a history lesson in the world that she lives in. I like world building when there is a payoff. But this world building was just descriptive, things that a writer needs to know to write, but not that I needed to know to read. I would have enjoyed it just as much without.
Dante is a flawed character. And while I usually root for that, I found myself cringing at every turn. She got played like a puppet and spent a lot of time mistrusting the ones around her that actually cared what happened to.
Dante seems to be trying to fix her past by making alliances with people (or demons) she doesn't really know. Eve- because she believes that she might be the daughter of her dead lover and possibly hers as well. Leanders who ends up betraying her reminded her of Jace... She clung to the familiar so hard she seemed to miss the fact that things were changing and the only person that seemed to actually care what happens to her is the one she keeps betraying and pushing away.
She seemed ok with the realtionship in the earlier books, when she believed that she was the one in charge and that he had to do what she said. Once she realized that he was actually more powerful, that's when the real problems began. He wanted to protect her and she resented him. He tried to let her make some choices and she ended up almost dead. He bargained for her life and she felt betrayed.
For all her talk of betrayal she seemed to forget that Japh was the only one that continued to keep her alive. And she turned on him every chance she got... yet he never stopped fighting for her. She spent a lot of time forgiving Eve because because she thought she was important, which she wasn't. Eve used her, and in the end I felt unsatisfied. The epilogue attempted to wrap everything up, but what I really needed was about 2 more chapters where I actually hear Dante say out loud that she was wrong. That she should have trusted Japh and that maybe just maybe she didn't always know best. I also needed to know that she has come to terms with being what she is and has loosened her white knuckle grip on what she used to be and who she used to be in a relationship with. I mean the relationship between her and Japh was crowded with ex-lovers I'm surprised there was room for him.. And the more curious part of me wanted some of the answers that I thought I'd get like what exactly are Vann, McKinley and Lucas. What's the deal with McKinley's hand? What did Lucas do to become deathless? Why was she dreaming about Jace?
END OF SPOILERS
In the end I think it was an ok series, not relaxing and not really anything I would enjoy ever re-reading. It's over and I think it needs to stay that way. I think some day I might try Lilith Saintcrow's Jill Kismet series, but that day is not in the near future.
November 19, 2010
I really liked Dante's strong and honorable personality in the first two books and how she resolved the issues placed before her. However, Dante became more unlikeable as each book progressed, until I couldn't stand her in To Hell and Back. Dante is a rage filled, idiotic, untrusting, immature, hypocritical b*****. Dante seems to have no qualms about killing anyone and constantly has the desire to stab or kill people if they so much as talked when she was in a 'mood', her lover and team mates included. She has a very strong dislike for anyone who lies or betrays her. This is very understandable but she lies and betrays those close to her without a problem so she has no right to point fingers. She treats Japh horribly and doesn't trust him despite him constantly proving he would do anything to protect her. Granted, Japh doesn't explain everything that is happening but I don't recall an instant when he blatantly lied to Dante despite her insistence that he has. What I cannot comprehend and what horribly frustrated me is that Dante seems to believe whatever Eve says but wont even trust her lover who has proven his loyalty. Dante even goes so far in her trust with Eve that she is willing to fight and kill Japh to protect her.
Another issue I have with this series is all the things that were left unresolved and unexplained. I did like the overall plot of the series and I feel Saintcrow did a wonderful job in portraying a world where magic, demons, and gods are considered normal, but it seems like Saintcrow felt like the readers didn't deserve answers and closure. Why did Anubis ask Dante not to kill Mercy, what exactly is a Fallen and a Hedaira, who exactly IS Japh, why does Japh have a gray streak and wrinkles once he came back from hell, and what exactly is Vann and Maxwell? There are many other questions I have that were never answered but those are the main questions that come to mind. I really liked Japh as a character but it does not further your plot when the character with all the answers never reveals those answers.
Unfortunately, I was so utterly disgusted with Dante and the end of the series that I never plan to read a Lilith Saintcrow book again. The reason I have such strong negative feelings for the last few books is because I REALLY liked the first 2 books and feel very let down as a reader. The reason I gave To Hell and Back a 3 star rating instead of something lower is only because of the first two books in the series.
Another issue I have with this series is all the things that were left unresolved and unexplained. I did like the overall plot of the series and I feel Saintcrow did a wonderful job in portraying a world where magic, demons, and gods are considered normal, but it seems like Saintcrow felt like the readers didn't deserve answers and closure. Why did Anubis ask Dante not to kill Mercy, what exactly is a Fallen and a Hedaira, who exactly IS Japh, why does Japh have a gray streak and wrinkles once he came back from hell, and what exactly is Vann and Maxwell? There are many other questions I have that were never answered but those are the main questions that come to mind. I really liked Japh as a character but it does not further your plot when the character with all the answers never reveals those answers.
Unfortunately, I was so utterly disgusted with Dante and the end of the series that I never plan to read a Lilith Saintcrow book again. The reason I have such strong negative feelings for the last few books is because I REALLY liked the first 2 books and feel very let down as a reader. The reason I gave To Hell and Back a 3 star rating instead of something lower is only because of the first two books in the series.
May 21, 2009
A satisfying conclusion to this futuristic urban fantasy series. As I've said before, this is a dense, challenging read; it is not for everyone. It's set 600 years in the future. American English has evolved and the terms used in the book will give you pause now and then as you figure out what the author meant. It's a dark and violent urban fantasy, and the perspective is from the inside of Dante' head - you read her internal monologue alongside dialogue and narrative; it can be a bit confusing BUT, I really liked the futuristic world created by the author - I found it intriguing.
This concluded Dante's story. There are plots and counterplots too numerious to mention, but it boils down to Dante backing Eve vs. the devil. Japh only cares about saving Dante, so at times he seems to be pro-Eve other times anti-Eve. Sometimes he has bargains in effect with the Devil, other times he's double crossing him. Dante gets a lot more info about being a heidiera (bride of a fallen demon) in this book, and by the end, she seems to have as happy an ending as possible for her, given what she's been through. I like that the ending leaves an openning for more stories down the road.
This concluded Dante's story. There are plots and counterplots too numerious to mention, but it boils down to Dante backing Eve vs. the devil. Japh only cares about saving Dante, so at times he seems to be pro-Eve other times anti-Eve. Sometimes he has bargains in effect with the Devil, other times he's double crossing him. Dante gets a lot more info about being a heidiera (bride of a fallen demon) in this book, and by the end, she seems to have as happy an ending as possible for her, given what she's been through. I like that the ending leaves an openning for more stories down the road.
December 26, 2013
Well...that did not end at all like I thought it would. Talk about anti-climactic. Seriously, what changes in Dante's universe?? WHAT??
And I still have the same complaints as I did during the last book. I do not understand how Danny can treat Japh like such shit and BLINDLY follow Eve as if she is some kind of savior. I just don't get it. Some people call her on her shit, which she needed, but it wasn't enough. She is completely dense, always trusts the wrong people, always makes the wrong decisions, takes the wrong actions. All because she won't trust Japh.
I swear by the end of the series, I was totally hoping Japh would just say Fuck it, and walk out on it all.
Honestly the first book in this series was so awesome, but it steadily declined unfortunately. I highly suggest if you are looking into this series - read the first one - and that's it. The way this series ended left me unsatisfied and confused by all the open plot holes.
Disappointing about sums it up.
And I still have the same complaints as I did during the last book. I do not understand how Danny can treat Japh like such shit and BLINDLY follow Eve as if she is some kind of savior. I just don't get it. Some people call her on her shit, which she needed, but it wasn't enough. She is completely dense, always trusts the wrong people, always makes the wrong decisions, takes the wrong actions. All because she won't trust Japh.
I swear by the end of the series, I was totally hoping Japh would just say Fuck it, and walk out on it all.
Honestly the first book in this series was so awesome, but it steadily declined unfortunately. I highly suggest if you are looking into this series - read the first one - and that's it. The way this series ended left me unsatisfied and confused by all the open plot holes.
Disappointing about sums it up.
January 19, 2009
Last in the series, Dante is still conflicted by her feelings for Japh and after spending time in hell with Lucifer she's pretty worn down. The beauty of this character is that she has so much trouble trusting others and letting go of being in control which leads to her mistrust of Japh. Her dedication to Eve is easier because it's based on her love of her lover Doreen and the small chance that Eve may be her biological daughter. While Dante can give unconditional love and trust, she has a much harder time accepting it (from Japh). It's important to remember there are very few "breaks" - except between book one and two - as far as timeline, so by this final book, Dante is just plain tired. I'd whine a little, too.
The book is complicated and intense and does take (as the whole series does) a bit more focus than your average urban fantasy, but Saintcrow's originality and writing are worth it.
The book is complicated and intense and does take (as the whole series does) a bit more focus than your average urban fantasy, but Saintcrow's originality and writing are worth it.
March 21, 2011
Love this series of books. Love the Demon, but I'd like to slap some sense into the Necromance. What a self-indulgent child she is. Here she's got this guy (albeit a Demon) who gives up everything - and I mean everything for the love of her, and all she does is whine and bitch about how he doesn't tell her everything. Time and Place girl!! You're in deep doo doo with Lucifer on your tail and unfriendly Demons stacking up behind him trying to do you in - maybe you could just take your Fallen on faith for a while? Hmmm? You know, just until the dust has settled and you're both safe.
All the books in the series are action packed, extremely well written and with the exception of wanting to give a piece of my mind to the heroine (as mentioned above), has left me bereft after completing the final book in the series.
Please, read these books (and all of Lilith Saintcrows other books - that is, if you like to read exciting well written original stories :D
All the books in the series are action packed, extremely well written and with the exception of wanting to give a piece of my mind to the heroine (as mentioned above), has left me bereft after completing the final book in the series.
Please, read these books (and all of Lilith Saintcrows other books - that is, if you like to read exciting well written original stories :D
January 2, 2010
Meh.Japh gets to be right about everything and in the end Dante's world really is reduced to Japh and Gabe and Eddie's kid. I'm not impressed. Theoretically they're both trying but it still seems like Japh has almost all the power in the relationship and it really bothers me that he's borderline abusive and possessive and is completely right about everything. It really makes me want to avoid Lilith Saintcrow in the future. Especially since she seemed to repeat the pattern in [The Demon's Librarian:]. I don't know if that one is always right about everything but certainly the borderline abusive/possessive is still there. Pass.
This entire review has been hidden because of spoilers.
May 18, 2013
I'm lost. I didn't read this when it came right out. I waited a year. That was a mistake. What the hell happened? I'm so confused and this story didn't go out with a bang for me. I felt like I was reading a completely different storyline.
February 27, 2023
The GraphicAudio recording is excellent but the story is awful
The very few moments in this entire series, in which the half-demon necromancer, Dante, is feeling any emotion other than despair or rage, are when she is temporarily in the land of the dead and desperately hoping she has died. In the dystopian world of this novel, there is nothing to hang onto that brings anything but misery to the reader. Dante's entire life, from childhood until her present age of 40-something, has been an endless, rancid stream of abuse, abandonment, and alienation. As this book begins, she has just been dumped, half dead, back into the human world, after an indeterminate amount of time at Lucifer's mercy in hell, during which imprisonment (fortunately offstage), he beat her, raped her, and implanted in her belly some kind of vicious worm that is devouring her from the inside out. We find that out in the opening scene of this novel, and the story actually manages to go downhill from there.
In addition to her horrendous psychological trauma, Dante is torn apart emotionally because of conflicting loyalties to her demon lover, Japh, who has been Lucifer's personal assassin for millennia, and Eve, who is part human and part demon, has just escaped from hell, and has convinced Dante that she and Dante's beloved dead lover, Doreen, are genetically both her mother. Eve was created in a lab, by the demon Santos, who murdered Doreen brutally and whom Dante vanquished in the previous book, from genetic material of Lucifer, Doreen, and Dante. Unfortunately, it is never made clear if it is actually true that Dante is partly Eve's mother, but it is enough for Dante that Eve is the daughter of Doreen for Dante to constantly put her life at risk throughout this novel--and herself at odds with Japh--on behalf of Eve.
The relationship between Japh and Dante continues to be so dysfunctional that it is painful to witness the two of them interact virtually every moment that they are on stage together.
If you are hoping for a mitigation of the gloom and doom that permeates the entirety of this series with some kind of uplifting denouement in this, the final novel, you will be as disappointed as I was. Japh has endowed Dante with the next closest thing to eternal life, but it seems more like a curse than a blessing, given that Dante plods through life as a permanently depressed, PTSD survivor. Worse, rather than ever having a chance to heal, she is constantly incurring new trauma.
This whole series is like one big novel, because each of the books, except the final one, ends on a cliffhanger. If not for the brilliant GA performance for each book, I would have given up on this series after the second book.
Audio performance: 5 stars
Story: 1 star
Overall: 2 stars
The very few moments in this entire series, in which the half-demon necromancer, Dante, is feeling any emotion other than despair or rage, are when she is temporarily in the land of the dead and desperately hoping she has died. In the dystopian world of this novel, there is nothing to hang onto that brings anything but misery to the reader. Dante's entire life, from childhood until her present age of 40-something, has been an endless, rancid stream of abuse, abandonment, and alienation. As this book begins, she has just been dumped, half dead, back into the human world, after an indeterminate amount of time at Lucifer's mercy in hell, during which imprisonment (fortunately offstage), he beat her, raped her, and implanted in her belly some kind of vicious worm that is devouring her from the inside out. We find that out in the opening scene of this novel, and the story actually manages to go downhill from there.
In addition to her horrendous psychological trauma, Dante is torn apart emotionally because of conflicting loyalties to her demon lover, Japh, who has been Lucifer's personal assassin for millennia, and Eve, who is part human and part demon, has just escaped from hell, and has convinced Dante that she and Dante's beloved dead lover, Doreen, are genetically both her mother. Eve was created in a lab, by the demon Santos, who murdered Doreen brutally and whom Dante vanquished in the previous book, from genetic material of Lucifer, Doreen, and Dante. Unfortunately, it is never made clear if it is actually true that Dante is partly Eve's mother, but it is enough for Dante that Eve is the daughter of Doreen for Dante to constantly put her life at risk throughout this novel--and herself at odds with Japh--on behalf of Eve.
The relationship between Japh and Dante continues to be so dysfunctional that it is painful to witness the two of them interact virtually every moment that they are on stage together.
If you are hoping for a mitigation of the gloom and doom that permeates the entirety of this series with some kind of uplifting denouement in this, the final novel, you will be as disappointed as I was. Japh has endowed Dante with the next closest thing to eternal life, but it seems more like a curse than a blessing, given that Dante plods through life as a permanently depressed, PTSD survivor. Worse, rather than ever having a chance to heal, she is constantly incurring new trauma.
This whole series is like one big novel, because each of the books, except the final one, ends on a cliffhanger. If not for the brilliant GA performance for each book, I would have given up on this series after the second book.
Audio performance: 5 stars
Story: 1 star
Overall: 2 stars
November 18, 2017
http://delivreenlivres.blogspot.fr/20...
Je suis assez mitigée sur ce livre, dernier tome de la série. D'un coté je suis contente d'avoir fini l'histoire avec Lucifer de façon satisfaisante mais d'un autre j'ai trouvé qu'il manquait vraiment d'une fin pour les personnages eux même et leurs relations.
L'état de santé mentale de Danny n'a cessé de se dégrader tout au long de ce tome et la elle est véritablement brisée à la fin, à la limite de la folie (la vrai folie). Bon c'était déjà un personnage excessif avant mais la ça va bien plus loin. C'est vraiment extrême en fait. Je ne pensais vraiment pas qu'on puisse aller plus loin que le tome précédent mais l'auteur y arrive ici.
Après ce n'est pas forcement un point négatif ici ce coté la. Parce que du coup j'ai compris ce qu'elle ressentait, mieux que dans le précédent, ce qui fait que j'ai finalement préféré celui ci sur ce point précis. Je peux excuser certaines réactions chez un personnage brisé ou folle, plus que chez une personne censée être saine en gros. Elle n'en reste pas moins une emmerdeuse jamais contente, qui fait des scènes à tout bout de champ et qui ne supporte pas ne pas être aux commandes.
J'ai trouvé que finalement la fin était hyper pessimiste, bon le ton de la série et surtout de ce tome l'était aussi mais je ne m'y attendais pas quand même. Du coup on a un sentiment d'inachevé sur ce point la.
Ce qui fait bizarre c'est qu'on a un peu l'impression qu'un des sujets importants des trois derniers tomes était la relation Danny / Japh, non pas le coté amoureux car Danny aime Japh et elle ne veut pas le blesser, mais en même temps elle a peur de lui, elle ne lui fait pas confiance. C'est une relation totalement destructrice en fait.
Le fait est que Japh est trop vieux, trop différent, trop inhumain. Il se contente de suivre sa voie sans jamais s'expliquer, il est fidèle à lui même et ne se rend pas du tout compte d'à quel point il est en train de perdre Danny à cause de ça. Il a passé toute sa vie à comploter secrètement et à obéir au pire boucher de l'histoire et donc il ferra tout pour protéger Danny même lui mentir ouvertement ou la faire tomber dans ses propres pièges sans la prévenir si ça lui permet d’atteindre son but et de la maintenir en vie.
Et elle ne supporte pas ça, elle a l'impression qu'il passe son temps à la trahir et à lui mentir. Elle n'arrive plus à lui faire confiance et elle fini par faire catastrophe sur catastrophe à cause de ça, allant limite jusqu'à tenter se suicider à un moment pour ne pas qu'il la récupère.
Bref, la façon qu'ils ont de ne pas s'entendre et de ne pas se comprendre en permanence est au centre de l'intrigue. Et c'est la que la fin pèche.
J'attendais un final qui résoudrait ce conflit ou du moins qui nous permettrait d'espérer que leur relation soit s'améliorerait, soit se dissoudrait mais un changement quoi. Mais non, ça fini exactement comme c'était avant, ils se sont trop éloignés, ils ne se comprennent pas, et voila, final. On ne sais même pas si ils continuent à vivre ensemble après. Du coup je suis frustrée, j'ai l'impression qu'on m'a spolié de ma fin.
Après peut être qu'une suite a été envisagée à un moment ce qui explique ce fait, ou alors c'est volontaire parce qu'il ne peux pas y avoir de "fin" quand on est dans ce genre de relation et que du coup la laisser dans le vague était la seule solution, je ne sais pas.
Bref, finalement je n'ai parlé quasiment que de ça, et j'en suis désolée, mais c'est vraiment ce qui ressort le plus pour moi. Le reste était du même niveau que les précédents, c'était de ce coté la une fin tout à fait dans ce que j'imaginais. Elle est suffisamment originale pour que je ne m'y attende pas avant mais tout à fait dans l'esprit de la série, réussie quoi.
Du coup je ne sais pas du tout comment noter ce tome, si on ne compte que le plaisir de la lecture tout au long du tome je lui mettrait un 16/20 (un peu mieux que le précédent), mais après coup vu ma déception sur le non final des personnages, ça descend bien d'au moins 1 point.
Je suis assez mitigée sur ce livre, dernier tome de la série. D'un coté je suis contente d'avoir fini l'histoire avec Lucifer de façon satisfaisante mais d'un autre j'ai trouvé qu'il manquait vraiment d'une fin pour les personnages eux même et leurs relations.
L'état de santé mentale de Danny n'a cessé de se dégrader tout au long de ce tome et la elle est véritablement brisée à la fin, à la limite de la folie (la vrai folie). Bon c'était déjà un personnage excessif avant mais la ça va bien plus loin. C'est vraiment extrême en fait. Je ne pensais vraiment pas qu'on puisse aller plus loin que le tome précédent mais l'auteur y arrive ici.
Après ce n'est pas forcement un point négatif ici ce coté la. Parce que du coup j'ai compris ce qu'elle ressentait, mieux que dans le précédent, ce qui fait que j'ai finalement préféré celui ci sur ce point précis. Je peux excuser certaines réactions chez un personnage brisé ou folle, plus que chez une personne censée être saine en gros. Elle n'en reste pas moins une emmerdeuse jamais contente, qui fait des scènes à tout bout de champ et qui ne supporte pas ne pas être aux commandes.
J'ai trouvé que finalement la fin était hyper pessimiste, bon le ton de la série et surtout de ce tome l'était aussi mais je ne m'y attendais pas quand même. Du coup on a un sentiment d'inachevé sur ce point la.
Ce qui fait bizarre c'est qu'on a un peu l'impression qu'un des sujets importants des trois derniers tomes était la relation Danny / Japh, non pas le coté amoureux car Danny aime Japh et elle ne veut pas le blesser, mais en même temps elle a peur de lui, elle ne lui fait pas confiance. C'est une relation totalement destructrice en fait.
Le fait est que Japh est trop vieux, trop différent, trop inhumain. Il se contente de suivre sa voie sans jamais s'expliquer, il est fidèle à lui même et ne se rend pas du tout compte d'à quel point il est en train de perdre Danny à cause de ça. Il a passé toute sa vie à comploter secrètement et à obéir au pire boucher de l'histoire et donc il ferra tout pour protéger Danny même lui mentir ouvertement ou la faire tomber dans ses propres pièges sans la prévenir si ça lui permet d’atteindre son but et de la maintenir en vie.
Et elle ne supporte pas ça, elle a l'impression qu'il passe son temps à la trahir et à lui mentir. Elle n'arrive plus à lui faire confiance et elle fini par faire catastrophe sur catastrophe à cause de ça, allant limite jusqu'à tenter se suicider à un moment pour ne pas qu'il la récupère.
Bref, la façon qu'ils ont de ne pas s'entendre et de ne pas se comprendre en permanence est au centre de l'intrigue. Et c'est la que la fin pèche.
J'attendais un final qui résoudrait ce conflit ou du moins qui nous permettrait d'espérer que leur relation soit s'améliorerait, soit se dissoudrait mais un changement quoi. Mais non, ça fini exactement comme c'était avant, ils se sont trop éloignés, ils ne se comprennent pas, et voila, final. On ne sais même pas si ils continuent à vivre ensemble après. Du coup je suis frustrée, j'ai l'impression qu'on m'a spolié de ma fin.
Après peut être qu'une suite a été envisagée à un moment ce qui explique ce fait, ou alors c'est volontaire parce qu'il ne peux pas y avoir de "fin" quand on est dans ce genre de relation et que du coup la laisser dans le vague était la seule solution, je ne sais pas.
Bref, finalement je n'ai parlé quasiment que de ça, et j'en suis désolée, mais c'est vraiment ce qui ressort le plus pour moi. Le reste était du même niveau que les précédents, c'était de ce coté la une fin tout à fait dans ce que j'imaginais. Elle est suffisamment originale pour que je ne m'y attende pas avant mais tout à fait dans l'esprit de la série, réussie quoi.
Du coup je ne sais pas du tout comment noter ce tome, si on ne compte que le plaisir de la lecture tout au long du tome je lui mettrait un 16/20 (un peu mieux que le précédent), mais après coup vu ma déception sur le non final des personnages, ça descend bien d'au moins 1 point.
May 26, 2012
All in all, this was a satisfying conclusion to the series. The romantic turmoil was kept to an acceptable level, and there were times when I wasn't entirely certain what the outcome of the battle for Hell would be.
I continue to enjoy the glimpses of Earth's future, specifically Paris in this book. An afterword finally settled the "how long?" question I've had since the very beginning--that this is 600 years in the future. I like that even after that much time, under the technological, physical and political changes that are inevitable, people and the flow of the world are presented as inherently the same.
Now that it's over, I can't seem to stop the philosophical ramblings in my head--what is the real nature of their relationship? In the first book, I was willing to buy that he'd fallen in love with her (as always, allowing a bit of a lapse of credulity for the sake of romance in accepting someone could fall "in love" over the course of a few days, based on seemingly nothing more than the fact that she didn't treat him like a demon.) But over the last three books, I can't quite grasp why he would stay in love with her. Once in love, always in love? For all the statements that he doesn't understand her and that perhaps that's part of her appeal, it also seems like he doesn't TRY to understand her. Regardless, Japh does show over and over that he truly cares for Dante, even if he can barely manage to make an effort to give her the information she begs for repeatedly. He says he wants her to be happy, but doesn't seem to do anything to make her that way. So, ok, I'll justify this one as he knew what he was falling for, and no matter how prickly Dante gets, he accepts that and loves her in spite/because of her personality, even though he repeatedly does exactly the thing that's going to push her away rather than bring her closer. But what about Dante? What does she really feel? There certainly was no indication that she loved him back before he changed her, so does she truly love him or is it only the metaphysical connection? In the second book she certainly acted like someone in deep mourning over someone she loved. But was it really just guilt? And once Japh was back, then what? That he made her feel safe, I totally get, and for someone as damaged as Dante, maybe that's all it takes. And he did help her healing, so those years together must have established a pretty strong bond. But once any real strife started, I don't think Dante expressed the least bit of real affection--relief that he saved her repeatedly, yes, but the closest we got was an "I don't hate you." I can certainly understand her fighting his attempts to control her and being angry at him always keeping her in the dark, so does she really want to stay with him or did she just give in to the fact that she'd never get away from him? For goodness' sake, she tried to kill herself to escape his control of her! I think I would have liked a bit more between the end of the battle and the epilogue to get a better sense of where they really are in their relationship. Have they learned something from this and have reached some sort of compromise in their ways to deal with each other? Did she just give up on her attempts to learn more? I read the epilogue twice, and I still get no sense of how she truly feels about him. I think if it hadn't been for that dissatisfaction, I would have given it 5 stars.
I continue to enjoy the glimpses of Earth's future, specifically Paris in this book. An afterword finally settled the "how long?" question I've had since the very beginning--that this is 600 years in the future. I like that even after that much time, under the technological, physical and political changes that are inevitable, people and the flow of the world are presented as inherently the same.
Now that it's over, I can't seem to stop the philosophical ramblings in my head--what is the real nature of their relationship? In the first book, I was willing to buy that he'd fallen in love with her (as always, allowing a bit of a lapse of credulity for the sake of romance in accepting someone could fall "in love" over the course of a few days, based on seemingly nothing more than the fact that she didn't treat him like a demon.) But over the last three books, I can't quite grasp why he would stay in love with her. Once in love, always in love? For all the statements that he doesn't understand her and that perhaps that's part of her appeal, it also seems like he doesn't TRY to understand her. Regardless, Japh does show over and over that he truly cares for Dante, even if he can barely manage to make an effort to give her the information she begs for repeatedly. He says he wants her to be happy, but doesn't seem to do anything to make her that way. So, ok, I'll justify this one as he knew what he was falling for, and no matter how prickly Dante gets, he accepts that and loves her in spite/because of her personality, even though he repeatedly does exactly the thing that's going to push her away rather than bring her closer. But what about Dante? What does she really feel? There certainly was no indication that she loved him back before he changed her, so does she truly love him or is it only the metaphysical connection? In the second book she certainly acted like someone in deep mourning over someone she loved. But was it really just guilt? And once Japh was back, then what? That he made her feel safe, I totally get, and for someone as damaged as Dante, maybe that's all it takes. And he did help her healing, so those years together must have established a pretty strong bond. But once any real strife started, I don't think Dante expressed the least bit of real affection--relief that he saved her repeatedly, yes, but the closest we got was an "I don't hate you." I can certainly understand her fighting his attempts to control her and being angry at him always keeping her in the dark, so does she really want to stay with him or did she just give in to the fact that she'd never get away from him? For goodness' sake, she tried to kill herself to escape his control of her! I think I would have liked a bit more between the end of the battle and the epilogue to get a better sense of where they really are in their relationship. Have they learned something from this and have reached some sort of compromise in their ways to deal with each other? Did she just give up on her attempts to learn more? I read the epilogue twice, and I still get no sense of how she truly feels about him. I think if it hadn't been for that dissatisfaction, I would have given it 5 stars.
July 12, 2010
I don't want to give away too much, but this book is filled with so much action and suspense, it just blew me away. I don't know what to say without giving away too many spoilers, so I'll cut it short.
To Hell And Back is the Fourth and Final book in the Dante Valentine series by the amazing Lilith Saintcrow.
I'm a somewhat longtime reader of Saintcrow, and her books are always packed with a punch.
Six hundred years into the future, in a post-Apocalyptic world that knows of demons and all other supernaturals, Dante Valentine is fighting the devil himself. When Lucifer captured half-demon and powerful necromancer Dante, he did torturous things to her before dispatching her back to the mortal world in a Alley to live or die. At first Dante doesn't remember anything about her time in hell, which for any person, would be what you want. But Dante gradually recalls enough. And she is afraid. Very afraid. She learns also that in her absence, Japh has been tearing apart the world looking for her, and he has declared rebellion against Lucifer. When Japhrimel (Japh) finds her and see's what has been done to her, all hell breaks loose. Literally.
Throughout the book Dante is emotionally haggard. She's been through too much and is confused with her life. I just want Japh and Dante to be happy and have a somewhat normal life, but that will never happen in the world they live in. As for Eve, I didn't mind her, but I was glad to see it ended the way it did with her. Dante needs support and love, and that's hard for her to find with just anyone. Japh is that person. Japhrimel, a fallen demon, is one of the best character created in fantasy novel. I love him.
Lilith throws curve balls right until the last chapter.
I really loved this series, I hated to see it come to an end. I felt as if it hasn't ended, even thought it obviously was. I just wish we could have had another few chapters or even better, another book.
It would have been nice to have learned a bit more about Japh and his past, and why Japh fell for Dante. What happens next with
the two, etc. But if you have started this series, then you have to read this book. It is a great closing book in a powerful series. I immediately went on
to reading her Jill Kismit series after finishing this, and was also blown away by it's performance! I really enjoyed her Dante series by her Jill Kismit is my new favorite. Lilith Saintcrow is one heck of an writer!
To Hell And Back is the Fourth and Final book in the Dante Valentine series by the amazing Lilith Saintcrow.
I'm a somewhat longtime reader of Saintcrow, and her books are always packed with a punch.
Six hundred years into the future, in a post-Apocalyptic world that knows of demons and all other supernaturals, Dante Valentine is fighting the devil himself. When Lucifer captured half-demon and powerful necromancer Dante, he did torturous things to her before dispatching her back to the mortal world in a Alley to live or die. At first Dante doesn't remember anything about her time in hell, which for any person, would be what you want. But Dante gradually recalls enough. And she is afraid. Very afraid. She learns also that in her absence, Japh has been tearing apart the world looking for her, and he has declared rebellion against Lucifer. When Japhrimel (Japh) finds her and see's what has been done to her, all hell breaks loose. Literally.
Throughout the book Dante is emotionally haggard. She's been through too much and is confused with her life. I just want Japh and Dante to be happy and have a somewhat normal life, but that will never happen in the world they live in. As for Eve, I didn't mind her, but I was glad to see it ended the way it did with her. Dante needs support and love, and that's hard for her to find with just anyone. Japh is that person. Japhrimel, a fallen demon, is one of the best character created in fantasy novel. I love him.
Lilith throws curve balls right until the last chapter.
I really loved this series, I hated to see it come to an end. I felt as if it hasn't ended, even thought it obviously was. I just wish we could have had another few chapters or even better, another book.
It would have been nice to have learned a bit more about Japh and his past, and why Japh fell for Dante. What happens next with
the two, etc. But if you have started this series, then you have to read this book. It is a great closing book in a powerful series. I immediately went on
to reading her Jill Kismit series after finishing this, and was also blown away by it's performance! I really enjoyed her Dante series by her Jill Kismit is my new favorite. Lilith Saintcrow is one heck of an writer!
December 30, 2010
This is the 5th (and last) book in the Dante Valentine series by Lilith Saintcrow. It was okay; not as good as some of the previous ones, but okay.
The book starts with Dante (Danny) being expelled from Hell in an alley; she has taken quite a beating from Lucifer and can't remember much of it. Lucas comes to her rescue and Danny is soon reunited with Japh. Danny finds that in her absence Japh has been tearing apart the world looking for her, and he has declared rebellion against Lucifer. In order to kill the devil Japh is determined to get a special knife that was made for hedaira to wield against demons. He has determined that Danny will use it to kill the Lucifer. Of course Japh, is also out to kill Eve and Danny is hell-bent on protecting Eve. Danny exerts her independence against Japh and makes a "hell" of a mess out of everything...again.
There were a lot of things about this book that bothered me. I don't understand why Danny is so blindly faithful to Eve; Eve jerks her around just as much (if not more than) Japh. Danny is not blindly faithful to anyone; why should she be faithful to Eve? On the flip side Danny is horribly unfaithful to Japh. I don't understand why. Both characters lied to her a ton; yet only one of them was supportive of her.
By the end of this book I really, really disliked Danny as a character. She was a physical and emotional mess the whole book. She rarely took any action on her own. When she did take action, the action she took seemed to be thoughtless and to just be an excuse to use power. Danny basically screwed up through this whole book.
While Japh is not a perfect character; he seemed to act at least consistently throughout the book. It would have been nice to know a bit more about Japh and his past. It would have been nice to know more about why Japh fell for Danny. The only explanation he gave was that "She treated him like a human"; you can't tell me that that has never happened before to him in all of the thousands of years he has existed.
For some reason a lot of this book kind of got under my skin and irritated me. Maybe it was too drawn out or just too inconsistent. It left you with more questions than answers. While it was a decent ending to this series; I think it could have been better. Maybe Saintcrow will write a series about Japh or Lucas; I think they were much more interesting than Danny. I guess we will see.
The book starts with Dante (Danny) being expelled from Hell in an alley; she has taken quite a beating from Lucifer and can't remember much of it. Lucas comes to her rescue and Danny is soon reunited with Japh. Danny finds that in her absence Japh has been tearing apart the world looking for her, and he has declared rebellion against Lucifer. In order to kill the devil Japh is determined to get a special knife that was made for hedaira to wield against demons. He has determined that Danny will use it to kill the Lucifer. Of course Japh, is also out to kill Eve and Danny is hell-bent on protecting Eve. Danny exerts her independence against Japh and makes a "hell" of a mess out of everything...again.
There were a lot of things about this book that bothered me. I don't understand why Danny is so blindly faithful to Eve; Eve jerks her around just as much (if not more than) Japh. Danny is not blindly faithful to anyone; why should she be faithful to Eve? On the flip side Danny is horribly unfaithful to Japh. I don't understand why. Both characters lied to her a ton; yet only one of them was supportive of her.
By the end of this book I really, really disliked Danny as a character. She was a physical and emotional mess the whole book. She rarely took any action on her own. When she did take action, the action she took seemed to be thoughtless and to just be an excuse to use power. Danny basically screwed up through this whole book.
While Japh is not a perfect character; he seemed to act at least consistently throughout the book. It would have been nice to know a bit more about Japh and his past. It would have been nice to know more about why Japh fell for Danny. The only explanation he gave was that "She treated him like a human"; you can't tell me that that has never happened before to him in all of the thousands of years he has existed.
For some reason a lot of this book kind of got under my skin and irritated me. Maybe it was too drawn out or just too inconsistent. It left you with more questions than answers. While it was a decent ending to this series; I think it could have been better. Maybe Saintcrow will write a series about Japh or Lucas; I think they were much more interesting than Danny. I guess we will see.
Read
July 4, 2011It took me about a week to read all five books. Less if you count the two days I was celebrating my birthday.
These books are a good summer read if you're looking for a quick, action packed read. However if Saintcrow decides to write a book six I hope to God that it is about Dante and Japhrimel's amazing trip to a relationship counselor, and features Dante being interrogated by a therapist.
The books are full of amazing characters who aren't just superhuman in their nature and ability, but in their dysfunction as well. Nobody in these books seem to have any clue how to communicate. "I hate you because I love you." "I won't tell you anything, but I want you to trust me." "I won't trust you until you tell me everything." "Not telling you what you want to know is for your own good, but I won't tell you why." And it goes like this, around and around and around, for all five books. I swear I only read them all in hopes that by the end ONE of them would learn to communicate.
And Saintcrow can describe a scene to death. I would skip past paragraph after paragraph of detailed description of a bedroom.
Admittedly, the first book was a slog. Trying to keep up what was what and parse together the terminology. But that is to be expected when the story you're reading is set some 200+ years in the future. The following three flow well.
The final book, however, is just as frenzied and schizophrenic as Dante's mind. It's like Saintcrow had a half of two different stories and just mashed them together, laced together - loosely - by some questionable plot turns. It reminds me of the term papers I wrote at the last minute. Coherent, complete, but not well put together. I really feel like she wanted to find a way to kill off Dante but couldn't figure out how to do so without also killing off the second main character, Japhrimel.
These books are a good summer read if you're looking for a quick, action packed read. However if Saintcrow decides to write a book six I hope to God that it is about Dante and Japhrimel's amazing trip to a relationship counselor, and features Dante being interrogated by a therapist.
The books are full of amazing characters who aren't just superhuman in their nature and ability, but in their dysfunction as well. Nobody in these books seem to have any clue how to communicate. "I hate you because I love you." "I won't tell you anything, but I want you to trust me." "I won't trust you until you tell me everything." "Not telling you what you want to know is for your own good, but I won't tell you why." And it goes like this, around and around and around, for all five books. I swear I only read them all in hopes that by the end ONE of them would learn to communicate.
And Saintcrow can describe a scene to death. I would skip past paragraph after paragraph of detailed description of a bedroom.
Admittedly, the first book was a slog. Trying to keep up what was what and parse together the terminology. But that is to be expected when the story you're reading is set some 200+ years in the future. The following three flow well.
The final book, however, is just as frenzied and schizophrenic as Dante's mind. It's like Saintcrow had a half of two different stories and just mashed them together, laced together - loosely - by some questionable plot turns. It reminds me of the term papers I wrote at the last minute. Coherent, complete, but not well put together. I really feel like she wanted to find a way to kill off Dante but couldn't figure out how to do so without also killing off the second main character, Japhrimel.
April 9, 2012
I found the last two or three books of this series somewhat frustrating. Making allowances for psychological trauma and the deleterious effects that can have on self-control and deliberation, I still found Valentine's character to head off half-cocked too many times. With all the lies and information to the contrary of what she might have wanted to believe, and her (repeatedly reinforced) awareness that demons all manipulate, lie, and scheme, I found it difficult to believe that she would remain in such ignorance of Eve's plans/schemes, and I found it difficult to countenance that Japh would need to keep her in such ignorance of all the things that occur in the plot - which truly didn't seem that horrible such that she would not be able to retain sanity, or from which she would require protection mentally. It seemed too much like the narrative jumped from one place to another, because Japh needed to collect this thing and then that thing, or Eve wanted this to happen or that to happen, and Valentine simply reacted/was manipulated without reasoning things through. It was frustrating, too: either trust Japhrimel, in spite of the lies etc., or don't trust him, but the constant vacillation was irritating. I think one of the things I liked best was the portrayal of the world of the future, and things like the mythologies/construction of faiths, technology, and mutation of modern concerns into future concerns relatively seamlessly.
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