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Dining With the Devil: The Megachurch Movement Flirts With Modernity (Hourglass Books) by Os Guinness
What shapes the message of the church? The Bible and Spirit? Or society and culture? Os Guinness points out perils of compromise in the church growth movement.
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First published August 1, 1993
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About the author
Os Guinness
87 books350 followersOs Guinness (D.Phil., Oxford) is the author or editor of more than twenty-five books, including The American Hour, Time for Truth and The Case for Civility. A frequent speaker and prominent social critic, he was the founder of the Trinity Forum and has been a visiting fellow at the Brookings Institution and a guest scholar at the Woodrow Wilson Center for International Studies. He lives near Washington, D.C.
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Displaying 1 - 11 of 11 reviews
December 18, 2019
Dining with the Devil is the first book by Os Guinness that I have had the pleasure to read. I'm familiar with Guinness from numerous interviews and lectures, all of which have been excellent and edifying. I am pleased to find that he is an excellent writer, and not just a thinker and speaker; or, to put it another way, that he has a gifted pen as well as a gifted mind and tongue.
The greatest benefit I derived from reading this somewhat dated book was the probing examination of modernity's influence on the culture and the church. The arguments herein are very similar to what David Wells argues in No Place for Truth. The main difference is that David Wells takes 20 pages to delineate what Guinness puts down in 20 lines, and sometimes 2. This brevity left me wishing for more fleshing out and explanation from time to time, but it made for a clear, punchy style that I liked.
The other main difference is that Wells is looking at all of evangelicalism broadly while Guinness is focused on the megachurch movement (church growth movement in general). His posture is one of encouragement and caution, celebrating the good aspects of the movement but raising for consideration many warnings and pitfalls. In this respect he is a lot more winsome than other critiques I have encountered which were more dismissive and mocking. Here is what he says about his approach: "My approach is to examine trends, raise issues, and set out principles so that we may engage with this vital movement with our eyes open and our ears alert, being as self-critical and discerning as the gospel requires."
In this passage, you see his approach at work: "At its best, it should be applauded. Where it is not at its best, it requires criticism so it might be. The church of Christ concerned for the glory of Christ needs more - not less - of the best of true church growth."
Part of the reason his insights are so useful is that he is so well steeped in church history and literature. He references with ease and ability from a huge scope of writing: Kierkegaard, Origen, Dostoevsky, Nietzsche, Chesterton, Nathaniel Hawthorne, and others. This helps give his critiques a historical perspective and weight which is lacking when the critique is coming from another pastor on the other side of town who has a different approach to ministry.
One of the most surprising emphases of the book was authority. If someone asked me what the main problem with the megachurch movement might be, authority wouldn't be first in my mind, or even top five. But Guinness makes a compelling case, first in the introduction ("Modernity and the Search for Lost Authority") and then even more so in the first chapter ("One Main Question"). Take note that the introduction runs 23 pages (which is far more than any subsequent chapter) and contains much of the distilled power of the book's insights. Here are some highlights:
"Modernity is the central fact of human life today: Modernity is the first truly global culture in the world and the most powerful culture in history so far. Thus the empire of modernity is the great alternative to the kingdom of God." p17
"Modernity represents the crux of the contemporary challenge to the gospel because it is the greatest single opportunity and the greatest single challenge the church has faced since the apostles. In the first case, it is the equivalent of the Roman roads in the first century and printing presses in the sixteenth. In the second, it is our equivalent of the challenges of persecution and gnosticism rolled into one." p17
"Modernity... makes discipleship harder, because practicing the lordship of Christ runs counter to the fragmentation and specialization of modern life." p18
Here he summarizes the main point of his book: "In short, the argument is that the megachurch movement is flirting dangerously with modernity. Or, more prosaically, that church growth on the basis of the church-growth movement's "new ground" is no answer to the crisis of modernity because the use of the "new ground" itself is an uncritical accommodation to modernity. Far from leading to an exodus, modern church growth often uses the ideology and tools of Egypt to make the life of the people of God more comfortable in captivity." p21
I thought this was particularly helpful: "What of the megachurch's subordination of worship and discipleship to evangelism, and all three to entertainment, a problem that is already the Achilles' heel of evangelicalism?" p27.
It does have the feel of a book that was put together a bit quickly, so in terms of structure and flow, it isn't the smoothest read. But the quality of the content and the wisdom of Guinness's approach was so impressive to me that it deserves the 5 stars nonetheless.
The greatest benefit I derived from reading this somewhat dated book was the probing examination of modernity's influence on the culture and the church. The arguments herein are very similar to what David Wells argues in No Place for Truth. The main difference is that David Wells takes 20 pages to delineate what Guinness puts down in 20 lines, and sometimes 2. This brevity left me wishing for more fleshing out and explanation from time to time, but it made for a clear, punchy style that I liked.
The other main difference is that Wells is looking at all of evangelicalism broadly while Guinness is focused on the megachurch movement (church growth movement in general). His posture is one of encouragement and caution, celebrating the good aspects of the movement but raising for consideration many warnings and pitfalls. In this respect he is a lot more winsome than other critiques I have encountered which were more dismissive and mocking. Here is what he says about his approach: "My approach is to examine trends, raise issues, and set out principles so that we may engage with this vital movement with our eyes open and our ears alert, being as self-critical and discerning as the gospel requires."
In this passage, you see his approach at work: "At its best, it should be applauded. Where it is not at its best, it requires criticism so it might be. The church of Christ concerned for the glory of Christ needs more - not less - of the best of true church growth."
Part of the reason his insights are so useful is that he is so well steeped in church history and literature. He references with ease and ability from a huge scope of writing: Kierkegaard, Origen, Dostoevsky, Nietzsche, Chesterton, Nathaniel Hawthorne, and others. This helps give his critiques a historical perspective and weight which is lacking when the critique is coming from another pastor on the other side of town who has a different approach to ministry.
One of the most surprising emphases of the book was authority. If someone asked me what the main problem with the megachurch movement might be, authority wouldn't be first in my mind, or even top five. But Guinness makes a compelling case, first in the introduction ("Modernity and the Search for Lost Authority") and then even more so in the first chapter ("One Main Question"). Take note that the introduction runs 23 pages (which is far more than any subsequent chapter) and contains much of the distilled power of the book's insights. Here are some highlights:
"Modernity is the central fact of human life today: Modernity is the first truly global culture in the world and the most powerful culture in history so far. Thus the empire of modernity is the great alternative to the kingdom of God." p17
"Modernity represents the crux of the contemporary challenge to the gospel because it is the greatest single opportunity and the greatest single challenge the church has faced since the apostles. In the first case, it is the equivalent of the Roman roads in the first century and printing presses in the sixteenth. In the second, it is our equivalent of the challenges of persecution and gnosticism rolled into one." p17
"Modernity... makes discipleship harder, because practicing the lordship of Christ runs counter to the fragmentation and specialization of modern life." p18
Here he summarizes the main point of his book: "In short, the argument is that the megachurch movement is flirting dangerously with modernity. Or, more prosaically, that church growth on the basis of the church-growth movement's "new ground" is no answer to the crisis of modernity because the use of the "new ground" itself is an uncritical accommodation to modernity. Far from leading to an exodus, modern church growth often uses the ideology and tools of Egypt to make the life of the people of God more comfortable in captivity." p21
I thought this was particularly helpful: "What of the megachurch's subordination of worship and discipleship to evangelism, and all three to entertainment, a problem that is already the Achilles' heel of evangelicalism?" p27.
It does have the feel of a book that was put together a bit quickly, so in terms of structure and flow, it isn't the smoothest read. But the quality of the content and the wisdom of Guinness's approach was so impressive to me that it deserves the 5 stars nonetheless.
July 19, 2023
The title pretty well sums up the book, and it's hard to dispute the observation. What's good about this book is the author doesn't just wallop the movement with a pole; he provides nuance and acknowledges the good. That being said, Dr. Guinness spareth not the rod. What a book.
September 30, 2009
I liked this little book; Os Guinness brought clarity to some of my frustrations with the 'seeker' mentality of doing church.
OK, the idea that we have to be in the culture but not of the culture is a mission strategy --- I get that.
My little perspective on how pastors and music directors do church, has a lot to do with the performance mentality and 'star presence' of the upfront people and less to do with being missionaries to the culture to identify with them. The lines get blurred, but being so sensitive to that, I get bored and frustrated with the excuse........
Anyway, to borrow another person's review, I liked much of how the book was summarized:
Everywhere we look we see the popular themes of Rick Warren and Bill Hybels,(although Willow Creek is getting back to a more traditional service-) The Church in America is often running after methods and teaching that generates more people without questioning the teaching and music and the believers sense of community about it.. Pragmatic, and sometimes unbiblical, doesn't seem to matter anymore.
Os Guinness takes direct aim at Rick Warren, Bill Hybels, Andy Stanley, C. Peter Wagner, and George Barna in this short book by addressing the seeker sensitive, megachurch mentality that exists and is being pushed in nearly every seminary in America. He writes that the Church is flirting with modernity and loosing sight of our original purpose.
The Bible, discipleship, expository preaching, prayer, and living the Spirit-filled life is being ignored for numbers, results, prestiage?, money/bottom-line balance sheets?.
OK, the idea that we have to be in the culture but not of the culture is a mission strategy --- I get that.
My little perspective on how pastors and music directors do church, has a lot to do with the performance mentality and 'star presence' of the upfront people and less to do with being missionaries to the culture to identify with them. The lines get blurred, but being so sensitive to that, I get bored and frustrated with the excuse........
Anyway, to borrow another person's review, I liked much of how the book was summarized:
Everywhere we look we see the popular themes of Rick Warren and Bill Hybels,(although Willow Creek is getting back to a more traditional service-) The Church in America is often running after methods and teaching that generates more people without questioning the teaching and music and the believers sense of community about it.. Pragmatic, and sometimes unbiblical, doesn't seem to matter anymore.
Os Guinness takes direct aim at Rick Warren, Bill Hybels, Andy Stanley, C. Peter Wagner, and George Barna in this short book by addressing the seeker sensitive, megachurch mentality that exists and is being pushed in nearly every seminary in America. He writes that the Church is flirting with modernity and loosing sight of our original purpose.
The Bible, discipleship, expository preaching, prayer, and living the Spirit-filled life is being ignored for numbers, results, prestiage?, money/bottom-line balance sheets?.
September 21, 2012
Another great book promoting discernment on an enormous movement within the church. Os calls this book dining with the devil because of Christianity's struggle with the spirit of the age: Modernity. Our modern day focus on methodologies and growing our churches in numbers through physical means, rather than being concerned with true biblical spiritual development of the people. I think the greatest part is how he ends with a short vinette by Nathanael Hawthorne. This poem really incapsulates the message of the whole book by showing what a modern day look of the pilgrims progress would look like. Instead of going the hard way by walking they build a train to the gates of heaven to by pass all the struggle. A great read and a very challenging book. It has helped me think more critically and to use discernment with everything.
January 15, 2017
Very thought-provoking book. Some of this book is a bit dated since it was written during the 90s before the megachurch movement came into full throttle, but the book is very good nonetheless, and Guinness' position in writing this as the megachurch movement was developing lends to a unique perspective. I really appreciated the way that Guinness analyzed the impact of modernity on churches and how even things as 'simple' as counting numbers and using them can be theologically foolish (David saw his kingdom devastated for doing so). It gave me a lot to think about in terms of what the modern mindset offers the Church and how cautious the Church needs to be that the use of such techniques not cloud our minds concerning the true Reason for the growth of the church. A quick but thought-provoking read.
Rating: 4-4.5 Stars (Very Good).
Rating: 4-4.5 Stars (Very Good).
January 28, 2023
A CAUTION ABOUT THE MODERN ‘MEGACHURCH’ MOVEMENT
Os Guinness is a writer who has taught at places such as L’Abri, the Brookings Institution, and the Williamsburg Charter Foundation.
He wrote in the Introduction to this 1993 book, “ ‘One-Stop shopping’ is a theme common to all of the megachurches… Once a growing church reaches the critical mass of one thousand, the sky is the limit for its financial and organizational potential for further growth through a myriad of dazzling modern insights and technologies. The modern megachurches are a prominent new feature of the church-growth movement… I use the term ‘church growth,’ [as] all these individuals and churches are part of a much wider and more important movement that is linked … to renewal of the church through renewal of the local church, as opposed to the denomination or parachurch ministry… the church-growth movement is a ‘back to basics’ movement with a special modern twist.” (Pg. 12-13)
He continues, “My purpose is not to dismiss this vital movement, or even to assess it comprehensively from a theological perspective, but to critique the perils and pitfalls that come from the ‘new ground.’ … My approach is to examine trends, raise issues, and set out principles so that we may engage with this vital movement with our eyes open…” (Pg. 14)
He begins the first chapter with the question, “In implementing its vision of church growth, is the church of Christ primarily guided and shaped by its own character and calling---or by considerations and circumstances alien to itself?... is the church of Christ a social reality truly shaped by a theological cause, namely the Word and Spirit of God? In sum, what---in practice---is the church’s decisive authority?” (Pg. 35)
He observes, “In the great heyday of secularism… everything modern was automatically taken as ‘progressive] … while everything religious was reactionary and fated to be both wrong and biased. Many Christians… are so relieved that modernity is not as bad as they thought that they have thrown out an estimate of its real damage along with the exaggerated accounts.” (Pg. 47)
He suggests, “If fundamentalists as modernity’s former misfits have become its more ardent missionaries, liberals… appear somewhat sobered. Liberals, far more than evangelicalism, is marked today by its ‘recovery movements’ that delve back into tradition. Liberals, not evangelicals, are in the forefront of writing serious new systematic theologies.” (Pg. 62)
He states, “Nothing can take away from the joy in heaven over every sinner who has repented… But four things must be pointed out: First, many megachurches make much of their front-door statistics (who comes in and why) but less on their back-door statistics … (who leaves and why)… Second, a very large part of church-growth success in the West… is growth by transfer, not conversion… Third, most of the ‘unchurched’ reached would be better described as ‘semi-churched’ [who] are really spiritual refugees from the collapse of three groups---legalistic fundamentalism, watered-down liberalism, and overritualistic traditionalism… Fourth… those reached recently by the church-growth movement are hardly examples of ‘persuasion’…” (Pg. 81-82)
He asserts, “The megachurches’ disdain for theology and the seminaries is particularly striking… Theology is said to be cerebral, theoretical, wordy, divisive, specialized, remote… The success of the superchurches, it is aid, is the wave of the future. The traditional seminaries and their training can be ignored. They are on their way to join the Dodo bird.” (Pg. 84)
He concludes, “here are two concluding reminders and two cautions to ponder. The first reminder concerns the paradox surrounding change and relevance… The second reminder concerns the paradox surrounding success… in matters of the spirit, nothing fails like success… The first caution … is historical. In the early eighties when the Christian Right was the dominant trend, criticism of the movement was often treated as treason. Today… many former enthusiasts wonder why then did not recognize its shortcomings earlier. Could it be that the church-growth movement … is also a movement waiting to be undeceived? It would be wise to raise our questions now. The second caution is theological… Only an impossible God, revealing impossible truths and making impossible demands can call out an impossible people adequate for this challenge.” (Pg. 89-90)
This book will appeal to those seeking sympathetic Christians analyses of the movement.
Os Guinness is a writer who has taught at places such as L’Abri, the Brookings Institution, and the Williamsburg Charter Foundation.
He wrote in the Introduction to this 1993 book, “ ‘One-Stop shopping’ is a theme common to all of the megachurches… Once a growing church reaches the critical mass of one thousand, the sky is the limit for its financial and organizational potential for further growth through a myriad of dazzling modern insights and technologies. The modern megachurches are a prominent new feature of the church-growth movement… I use the term ‘church growth,’ [as] all these individuals and churches are part of a much wider and more important movement that is linked … to renewal of the church through renewal of the local church, as opposed to the denomination or parachurch ministry… the church-growth movement is a ‘back to basics’ movement with a special modern twist.” (Pg. 12-13)
He continues, “My purpose is not to dismiss this vital movement, or even to assess it comprehensively from a theological perspective, but to critique the perils and pitfalls that come from the ‘new ground.’ … My approach is to examine trends, raise issues, and set out principles so that we may engage with this vital movement with our eyes open…” (Pg. 14)
He begins the first chapter with the question, “In implementing its vision of church growth, is the church of Christ primarily guided and shaped by its own character and calling---or by considerations and circumstances alien to itself?... is the church of Christ a social reality truly shaped by a theological cause, namely the Word and Spirit of God? In sum, what---in practice---is the church’s decisive authority?” (Pg. 35)
He observes, “In the great heyday of secularism… everything modern was automatically taken as ‘progressive] … while everything religious was reactionary and fated to be both wrong and biased. Many Christians… are so relieved that modernity is not as bad as they thought that they have thrown out an estimate of its real damage along with the exaggerated accounts.” (Pg. 47)
He suggests, “If fundamentalists as modernity’s former misfits have become its more ardent missionaries, liberals… appear somewhat sobered. Liberals, far more than evangelicalism, is marked today by its ‘recovery movements’ that delve back into tradition. Liberals, not evangelicals, are in the forefront of writing serious new systematic theologies.” (Pg. 62)
He states, “Nothing can take away from the joy in heaven over every sinner who has repented… But four things must be pointed out: First, many megachurches make much of their front-door statistics (who comes in and why) but less on their back-door statistics … (who leaves and why)… Second, a very large part of church-growth success in the West… is growth by transfer, not conversion… Third, most of the ‘unchurched’ reached would be better described as ‘semi-churched’ [who] are really spiritual refugees from the collapse of three groups---legalistic fundamentalism, watered-down liberalism, and overritualistic traditionalism… Fourth… those reached recently by the church-growth movement are hardly examples of ‘persuasion’…” (Pg. 81-82)
He asserts, “The megachurches’ disdain for theology and the seminaries is particularly striking… Theology is said to be cerebral, theoretical, wordy, divisive, specialized, remote… The success of the superchurches, it is aid, is the wave of the future. The traditional seminaries and their training can be ignored. They are on their way to join the Dodo bird.” (Pg. 84)
He concludes, “here are two concluding reminders and two cautions to ponder. The first reminder concerns the paradox surrounding change and relevance… The second reminder concerns the paradox surrounding success… in matters of the spirit, nothing fails like success… The first caution … is historical. In the early eighties when the Christian Right was the dominant trend, criticism of the movement was often treated as treason. Today… many former enthusiasts wonder why then did not recognize its shortcomings earlier. Could it be that the church-growth movement … is also a movement waiting to be undeceived? It would be wise to raise our questions now. The second caution is theological… Only an impossible God, revealing impossible truths and making impossible demands can call out an impossible people adequate for this challenge.” (Pg. 89-90)
This book will appeal to those seeking sympathetic Christians analyses of the movement.
December 31, 2020
Great concepts, and wonderful takeaways. I would give it four or five stars if I could understand the language better, there were so many big words used that it made it hard for me to understand what Guinness was trying to convey.
My takeaway was to remember that obedience and discipleship is more important than numbers, or success (of the church), and the importance of “engaging in a world of modernity freely but faithfully.”
My takeaway was to remember that obedience and discipleship is more important than numbers, or success (of the church), and the importance of “engaging in a world of modernity freely but faithfully.”
June 18, 2018
Guinness has some good points but seems half invested in writers like Universalist George Macdonald some 4-5 times which seem to point to some wild inconsistency. If you're going to critique modernism, you should try to not quote a heretic like Macdonald to make your points.
March 24, 2015
I feel mixed on this one. It is good information, but I didn't enjoy reading it as much. I found it odd how it was set up. Everything had sort of a list feel to it that kept leading to more and more points. It is definitely Godly information, although it may be a bit out dated as it was written in the early 1990s. I’m sure it was incredibly timely when published, though.
Good stuff, just a b it of a chore to read.
Good stuff, just a b it of a chore to read.
June 5, 2014
A very balanced book. I've seen this book many times and finally decided to dig in. I'm so glad I sat at the feet of Os Guinness on this topic. You can't tell this book is nearly 20 years old. If you are in a mega church or muti-site church this is a good must read to stay the course for Jesus.
November 2, 2009
A reasoned, fair and not unkind critique of the megachurch movement.
Displaying 1 - 11 of 11 reviews