Entre el cielo y la tierra: Monseñor Jované y su siglo

by Jorge Thomas

Panamá. 21 cm. 322 p. 1 mapa. Encuadernación en tapa blanda de editorial ilustrada.. Este libro es de segunda mano y tiene o puede tener marcas y señales de su anterior propietario.

Genres: Religion, Nonfiction, Catholic, Spirituality, Theology, Faith, Christian

Paperback

Published January 1, 2000

Reviews

[Jan Rice]

This is what a book club will do for you! I never ever would have read a book like this if it hadn't been for the book club.

I don't mean because of the authors but because it's a book composed of a dialogue two people had had. My assumptions were that it would be lightweight, just to have something to publish.

By the way, there are two authors, not only the (at the time) cardinal but also a rabbi friend of his in Argentina, Abraham Skorka, both celebrating the value of dialogue.

At first my preconceptions about the book were right on. The dialogues were hard to follow, starting one place and veering off. Since footnotes were limited to biblical references and a few for unfamiliar terms or history, there was not an emphasis on where ideas were coming from. As often happens when two people are talking, they seemed at pains to emphasize points of agreement. And as also often happens, they would pick something--or some other group--to target. They would also say one thing and then turn around later and contradict themselves. Or, they would be bandying about conventional ideas. So at first I was working pretty hard at understanding what they were saying and the provenance of their ideas.

At that point I was thinking two stars.

Then it occurred to me to take what they were saying as a series of homilies or divrei Torah (words of Torah)--sermonettes. That, allowed me to relax and read--a useful approach, especially when time is limited.

And, lo and behold, ideas began coming into focus. Unfortunately, now they've gone and drifted again--but let's see!

Both these guys were conservative, emphasizing the importance of institutions in upholding values. Begoglio wants divorced people inside the church but social change is occurring too rapidly for everything to fit. He, more than Skorka, bemoaned the impact of the Enlightenment in taming religion. Communism did away with the idea of afterlife, which was seen as the opiate of the people and making them stay in their place in this life. Capitalism, on the other hand, permits a "tamed transcendence:"

Something like: "Behave yourself, do some crooked things, but not too many." There would be good manners and bad customs: a civilization of consumerism, of hedonism, of political arrangements between the powers or political sectors, the reign of money. All are manifestations of worldliness. (p. 152)

So, Bergoglio sometimes forgets to say "wild" or "unmitigated" capitalism and does sound Marx-like in describing it. And later he says the poor must not just be patronized but need jobs--presumably where they'd earn--money. Both of these guys are well-read; that comes through. The cardinal says Communism failed because people lacked incentive. He says private property is real but carries obligations.

Here's more of a middle road:

Everyone thinks the Church is against Communism, and yet it is as against Communism as it is against the wild economic liberalism we see today. We have to seek equal opportunities and rights and strive for social benefits, dignified retirement, vacation time, rest, and freedom of unions. All of these things build social justice. No one should be dispossessed and there is no worse dispossession--and I want to emphasize this--than not being able to earn one's own bread. (pp. 172-173)

Both men speak of the importance of power in this world. The cardinal say political power is a gift, the way love is brought into reality. The rabbi quotes a teaching to the effect that an hour of repentance, returning to God, and good deeds in this world is better than an entire life in the world to come and that one hour of tranquility of spirit in the world to come is better than a whole life in this world.

Begoglio and Skorka differ in respect to religion in the public schools. Predictably, it's the former who wants Catholicism taught. He does not agree doing so constitutes discrimination, but, rather, than not being able to do so would be discriminatory.

Not opening the doors to a religious worldview in the academic environment cripples the harmonious development of children because this concerns their identity, the transmission of the same values their parents have.... They are deprived of a cultural and religious inheritance. If in education you take away the tradition of the parents, only ideology remains. Life is seen with biased eyes, there is no unbiased hermeneutic even in education. The words are full of history, of experience of life. When someone leaves a void, it is filled with different ideas from the family tradition; that is how ideologies are born. (p. 131)

So we confront that idea and its dilemmas once again. It depends on your perspective!

Here's another point on perspective: The cardinal says that the media shouldn't see "the Church" as only "the bishops, the priests, the hierarchy" but as the whole Church, the people of God. But, then, shouldn't the Church see the economic system not only as the "wild capitalists" but as everyone in the system? For everyone in the system is somewhat a capitalist, somewhat an entrepreneur.

Keep on dialoguing!

As always there is blaming of various entities, for example "the media," making things black and white, emphasizing conflict over unity. And yet, in making that criticism, isn't one doing the same thing?--seeing "the media" as the opponent, and in that opposition all is black and white.

Dichotomies, me good, you bad is what really gets me going. Dichotomies may be the common factor every time I want to argue and debate, for one cannot dichotomize and assign blame without participating in the condemned behavior. People say you have to take sides, you have to blame, but most of the time you don't. All are responsible; few are guilty.

I gained an insight from the cardinal's treatment of the poor, according to which he called them treasures of the Church and said,

We glory in the weakness of our people, the ones we help to get ahead. The poor are the treasure of the Church and we must care for them. (p. 173)

And a few pages later,

This is a very Christian belief: Jesus is in every suffering person. We complete in our suffering what is lacking in Christ's Passion. (p. 180)

So it almost sounded to me like needing the poor, which gave me my insight on that matter of siding with the underdog (having an underdog to side with), if the underdog has salvific value.

In Judaic theology suffering doesn't have the central position that attention to Jesus' suffering imparts to Christianity, and I think it's fair to say living not suffering or dying is uppermost in the mainstream, but it has gotten into perceived theology because of history, and you sometimes hear Jews refer to suffering or even that "chosen" means chosen for suffering, but even though charity and caring for the needy is very important, what the cardinal said with its shade of needing the poor and their suffering--that was different.

This book is divided into 29 chapters of dialogue topics--God, the Devil, Atheists, Religions, Euthanasia, Abortion, Divorce, Science, and so on. When the book club met I heard that these dialogues were televised. That information isn't in the book so it must have been in a review somewhere. Apparently I read reviews when trying to decide whether to read a book, so I had missed that point.

All in all, not lightweight. Not necessarily recommended, but if you do read it, it isn't empty calories.

[Matthew]

The title should be different.

This book is a series of conversations between Jorge Mario Bergoglio (now our new Pope Francis) and Rabbi Abraham Skorka. They talk about a wide array of topics giving both Jewish and Christian answers respectively.

I really liked the style of this book. The respectful conversation between these two men really impressed me.

It offers a great insight into the mind of our new Pope. This is maybe the best look at what he thinks about issues that I have found to date.

I was also very impressed with Rabbi Skorka. He is a very intelligent man and I've learned a lot about Jewish views on many issues.

I highly recommend this book for both Christians and Jews alike! We have a lot to learn from each other.

[Anne]

This is a dialogue between Cardinal Bergoglio (now Pope Francis) and his friend Rabbi Abraham Skorka. Observing the nuances of the way they dialogue is almost more important than what they say, as it is intended to model healthy interreligious dialogue-- the culture of encounter that Pope Francis speaks of so frequently. He quotes a German Lutheran theologian, Oscar Cullman, re: how to bring together the Christian denominations as a foundational philosophy for cooperation: "He says we should not seek that everyone, from the outset, affirm the same thing, but instead he proposes that we walk together in a reconciled diversity." These religious leaders model this act of journeying together as they discuss a variety of topics related to society and the spiritual life.

[Nancy Bielski]

This was absolutely lovely. The Rabbi and Pope said some really thought-provoking things. Very well articulated. I would recommend this to anyone who is interested in faith and religion. I think what they discuss doesn't necessarily push any specific religious doctrine, but instead discusses faith in general. It was great.

[Katie Bagley]

Generally, it was a great book. The only reason it lost a gavel from a perfect score is because, since the book was in the form of a conversation, there were several topics discussed that were particular to Argentine social history that could have done with some additional explanation or background. It caused me to look up a series of events/issues online, but that’s never a bad thing.

[Joe]

Wonderful book to really get acquainted with Pope Francis. I enjoyed the dialogue with the Rabbi and listened to the Audible version I liked how the two readers read it. I can rest assured that the Church is in good hands and the Pope Is much deeper and obviously true to the teaching of the church then the media portrays him in soundbites.

[Jason Theobald]

Like many others, I am sure, I was most interested to pick up this book because it was our new Pope in his own words. When I heard that this book was out there, I was intrigued; rarely do we get an insight into a Pope's mind like this, where it is not teaching but rather simply discussion. From the outset of this book, you get a good idea of what the the book will be like: friendly, intriguing dialogue which is not about debate but rather about finding common ground and looking at life from one's own perspective. As the Pope says in his introduction to this book, "Dialogue is born from a respectful attitude toward the other person, from a conviction that the other person has something good to say" (p. XIV). With this in the introduction, one learns a lot about how the actual dialogue will play out: a dialogue which involves truly listening to the other and discussing the things which the other person has to say on the world.

Due to the nature of this book as a personal conversation and not a theological analysis, it is quite readable for nearly any audience. While both of these men have deep convictions about their faith and the world, they do not allow their convictions to destroy conversation, but rather they are used to further dialogue. Whether the reader is Jewish, Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, Atheist, or of any other belief system, this book is one that would be an interesting read about the state of world affairs and two well-learned men's opinions on dealing with current issues. In reading this book you will learn a lot about what is happening and has happened in Argentina over the last half-century, as well as a lot about the way that a Catholic or Jewish worldview would go about dealing with these specific problems. On top of reading the opinions, what you will also experience in reading this book is a personal look at the man who is the new Pope; whether you are Catholic or not, he is an important man in the world, and it is good to know a little bit more about him.

Dialogue in Respect and Love

Since the book has 29 unique chapters touching on subjects from God to guilt to fundamentalism to science to the family and including nearly everything in between, it will be impossible here to discuss any of their thoughts in a profound or really worthwhile way. What I want to look at, instead, is the way that the whole book is framed in conversation, and what we can learn from reading the way that these two men interact. One of the most fascinating encounters of the book, for me, was in the Chapter "On Death" (Chapter 10), in which the two men's views differ quite drastically. Often in this book, one will notice that the basis for viewing the world is very similar in Judaism and Christianity; here, however, we find that this is not the case. Cardinal Bergoglio's understanding of death and the afterlife comes from the Catholic understanding of original sin, which he explains is what leads to death (cf. p.77). Rabbi Skorka, in his response to the Cardinal, lays out the Jewish point of view when it comes to the Garden of Eden, heaven and hell, and sin and death, which are all very different from the Catholic perspective on these things. When it is time for the Cardinal to respond, he does not spend time laboring these points in debating theology, but immediately finds common ground by picking out the topic of "inheritance" which Rabbi Skorka had mentioned and discussing this point. For me, this was a perfect example of what the whole book was about: he didn't need to argue or debate here, as these are points of intricate theology which would be difficult to discuss in a cursory way as they do with many topics, but rather he wants to find common ground, and allow his point of view to come across in a way that the Rabbi can relate to. This, I believe, is something which is often missing in the dialogue which we experience today; today, we will argue our point of view vehemently, without finding common ground. What our new Pope does here has a profound point: if you ever want to get somewhere in argument, you can't start by trying to destroy their points, but rather you must start by showing an understanding of common ground and building from that point.

Impressions

Overall, I thoroughly enjoyed this book. For someone who wants to understand the mind of Pope Francis, this is a great place to start. It is important to note, however, that more time in many parts of this book is definitely given to Rabbi Skorka's words as compared to the length of responses given by Pope Francis. If you are simply looking to read Pope Francis, then, this might catch you off guard; the Rabbi, though, is a brilliant man, and his insights are worth the time to read. I would encourage anyone, no matter where they are on their journey in life and in faith, to take the time to read this book. Whether or not you agree with the arguments, you will learn something; if nothing else, Americans can learn a lot from this book about recent history in Argentina and the way that it has affected those who are from there.

Unity of Truth

As a final note, I would like to draw back to what I think is the most important and concrete thing I have taken from my reading of this conversation, the importance of dialogue based on respect and care for the other. In Chapter 27 of this book, which is on Israeli-Palestinian conflicts and other conflicts, Cardinal Bergoglio has a section where he talks about an idea presented by German theologian Oscar Cullman. Cullman's idea is that in dealing with conflicts we need to start by affirming the things which are the same between the two parties, and using that sameness to begin moving forward hand-in-hand instead of throwing rocks at one another (cf. p.217). I would like to close this review with a quote from Pope Francis which concludes his comments in this section, which to me wraps up the way that we see these two men interact. This interaction involves much respect for the other person as an individual worthy of love and respect, an individual who is seeking truth and needs to be respected before they can be encountered in dialogue. In this quote, Pope Francis tells us that when dealing with others who think differently, we always need to go forth with "(e)ach one, from their identity, in reconciliation, seeking the unity of truth" (p.218, emphasis added).

[Sherrie-Lynne]

I really enjoyed seeing the conversation between Catholic and Jewish viewpoints. Pope Francis (then Msgr. Jorge Mario Bergoglio) and Rabbi Abraham Skorka do talk a lot in terms of their Argentinian lives, but their perspective is enlightening to read. It is interesting just how much both religions have in common in their perspectives. Definitely worth the read, especially if you are interested in better understanding Pope Francis.

[Stacey]

A written version of conversations between the Pope and a Rabbi, this book provides insight into the many similarities between religions and how we can all be better.

[Jennifer]

Found it very interesting the back and forth between rabbi and priest to see similarities in our religions

[Rivka V.]

Very interesting read, a respectful conversation on various topics between Skorka and Bergoglio 👌🏼

[Luboš]

Pomůžu si slovy Roberta Pelikána, který psal pro časopis Respekt: „Jsem bez vyznání, a vnitřní záležitosti katolické církve mne proto vždy nechávaly chladným. Habemus papam tak pro mne vždy bylo pouhé habent (oni mají) – o mého papeže tu vskutku nešlo.

Překvapené nadšení, které nejen ve mně vyvolává papež František, vypovídá mnoho nejen o stavu katolické církve, ale i o stavu našeho světa.
...
Zneklidňující, neb nás to usvědčuje z pohodlnosti, nesnažíme-li se sami alespoň občas a alespoň na chvilku být dobrými a lepšími lidmi. A útěšné, když nám to ukazuje, že to opravdu jde, že takoví lidé žijí a nejsou jen v pohádkách. A že se dokonce, světe, div se, mohou stát třeba i samotným papežem.

Habeo papam.“

---citace---
Nezeptal jsem se ho. Některá mlčení v sobě ukrývají náznaky a odpovědi. (Skorka)

…vždyť celá Bible možná není nic jiného než volání: nebuď lhostejný k duchovním věcem, Bohu a svému bližnímu. (Skorka)

Každá kultura se koneckonců rodí z odpovědi na tři otázky: jak daná kultura pojímá Boha, člověka a přírodu. (Skorka)

Názor, že pedofilie je následkem celibátu, je naprosto scestný. K více než sedmdesáti procentům případů pedofilie dochází v rodině a v nejbližším okolí: ze strany příbuzných, otčímů, sousedů. (Bergoglio)

Z talmudské literatury známe jeden aforismus: „Každého respektuj a každého podezírej současně.“ (Skorka)

Skutečná almužna neznamená, že se vzdáme toho, co nám přebývá, ale že si musíme něco odříct. (Bergoglio)

Myslíme-li si, že smrtí vše končí, že se obrátíme v prach, jak stojí psáno v Bibli, nebudeme se tolik snažit o nějaký přesah, budeme se soustředit jen na teď a tady, na hédonistické sobecké, narcistní pojetí života. (Skorka)

Opravdová síla medicíny se neprojeví tím, že prodlouží život člověka v konečném stadiu o tři dny nebo o dva měsíce, ale tím, že zajistí, aby co nejméně trpěl. (Bergoglio)

Byly doby, kdy se sebevrazi nepohřbívali, soudilo se, že přestali kráčet k cíli, že svévolně ukončili cestu. Sebevrah je ale člověk, který nedokáže překonat potíže. (Bergoglio)

Na péči o staré lidi nezbývá čas. Je ale důležité, abychom věděli, že staří lidé žijí opuštěni; ať už proto, že jejich přátelé zemřeli, nebo proto, že přes kulturní propast, která leží mezi nimi a jejich potomky, lze jen obtížně navázat dialog. (Skorka)

V naší konzumní, hédonistické, narcistní civilizaci si zvykáme na to, že mezi námi žijí „lidé na vyhození“. A to především staří lidé. Rodiče pracují a o dědečka se musí postarat starobinec. Ale často ani nejde o pracovní vytížení, jen o pracovní egoismus: staří doma překážejí a páchnou. Takže do starobince s nimi, stejně jako se v létě ukládají zimníky do skříně. (Bergoglio)

Kdyby byla úcta k rodičům něco snadného, nemluvilo by se o tom v Božím přikázání. (Skorka)

Často jsme svědky toho, že všichni mají nějaký názor, aniž by měli přesné informace a znalosti… (Skorka)

Tatínek mi vždycky říkal: „Zdrav lidi, když jdeš nahoru, protože je potkáš, až půjdeš dolů. Nebuď namyšlený.“ (Bergoglio)

Chudého člověka degraduje, že nemá olej, který ho pomazává důstojností, totiž práci. (Bergoglio)

Jisté je to, že spíše než ptát se, kde byl Bůh při šoa, bychom se měli ptát, co dělali lidé? Ať už ti, kteří se aktivně zapojili, či ti, kteří nemilosrdně a uboze působili tím, že nic nedělali. Tedy jak ti, co zabíjeli, tak také ti, kteří se dívali jinam. (Skorka)

Historický rozbor je vždy třeba konat s ohledem na dobové hodnoty, s vlastní hermeneutikou. Nikoliv proto, abychom nějaké skutky omlouvali, ale abychom jim rozuměli. Je zkrátka nezbytné zkoumat dějiny v kulturním kontextu okamžiku, v němž ke studované události došlo. (Bergoglio)

Dnes možná můžeme upozorňovat na malé počty věřících, nicméně v některých dobách bylo právě toto chápáno pozitivně. (Bergoglio)

[Jean]

On Heaven and Earth Pope Francis on Faith, Family, and the Church in the Twenty-First Century is a fascinating book, in which the man who would become Pope Francis -- Jorge Mario Bergoglio, archbishop of Buenos Aires, warmly and casually converses with Argentinian Rabbi Abraham Skorka on a diverse range of topics. Some of these topics include: religion, prayer, euthanasia, women, homosexuality, abortion, divorce, money, poverty, politics, and power. Originally published in 2010, this book documents a series of conversations between Bergoglio and Skorka as they seek to promote inter-religious dialogue and build bridges between Catholicism and Judaism.

Written in a clear, comprehensible style, On Heaven and Earth is presented in a conversational format. It is as if you are present as a spectator, listening to the conversation between the two men, which has the advantage of making you feel as if you are a first-hand observer. There can be no skimming through this material, however, not if you want to grasp the interchange of ideas and the camaraderie between the two men. As a Catholic, I was obviously more interested in what Pope Francis had to say about each topic and had considered just reading the Holy Father’s portions of the conversation and skipping over the rabbi’s words. However, I am glad I did not do this, as I would have missed some profound insights and some new discoveries about the Jewish faith.

Much of what the Holy Father has to say about each topic is not surprising, but the way he expresses himself, the way in which he interacts with the rabbi, and the way in which he explains Catholicism is what made this book special for me. Pope Francis does not mince words, yet his responses reflect his deep humility, his congeniality, his wit, and his wisdom. As I read, I highlighted and underlined many of his brilliantly succinct and beautiful responses on these important issues.

Despite the fact that I enjoyed this book, I was disappointed with it in two ways. First, I was expecting the issues to be covered in a more in-depth manner. Instead, the issues are discussed briefly, for the most part, and the tone is informal, presented in the style of a casual conversation between two friends. The pope’s general audience would probably provide more in-depth information than is presented in this book on a specific topic. Second, there are many specific references in the book to Argentinian politics and culture, which may seem a little alien to those who are not South American historians. Although I am somewhat familiar with the political history of Argentina, it was occasionally difficult to follow the conversation when the names of specific leaders and detailed events of a certain era were discussed.

Overall, I enjoyed On Heaven and Earth: Pope Francis on Faith, Family, and the Church in the Twenty-First Century. It was an interesting look at how the Holy Father interacts with a religious leader of another faith and it also provided some insight as to what he believes on a variety of topics. Most of all, it reveals his personality and character. It is a good introductory book on Pope Francis and I recommend it as such.

[gaby]

Vaya. Sinceramente, no sé que pensar de todo lo que leí.

Primero que nada, sobra decir que tengo una verdadera dualidad a la hora de leer. Jamás, en todos mis años que llevo de vida, y en ellos los que llevo amando leer, me hubiera creído capaz de empezarme y acabarme un libro tan religioso como panameño, sobre un monseñor que vivió dos siglos atrás; es decir, no tenía razón alguna para interesarme o gustarme en lo más mínimo. Pero fue todo lo contrario.

Este es el último libro que tengo prestado de mi abuela. Lo tomé hace mucho tiempo, y por mucho tiempo se quedó en mi repisa, ocupando espacio y esperando a que empezara la lectura de su capítulo III, en la cual había dejado el separador puesto hace tanto tiempo que me es difícil saber cuando exactamente fue.
Recuerdo, eso sí, haberlo agarrado porque era uno de los libros del escritor favorito de mi abuela, Juan David Morgan —de seudónimo Jorge Thomas—, a parte que me llamó mucho la atención el título y su portada.

Finalmente, retomé el libro donde lo había dejado y gracias a Dios así fue. Me empezó a interesar de a poco, y fue cuando llegó al apartado de Abigaíl Cabarcas, que me dejó sin palabras a la hora de ver como eran descritos los pensamientos profundos de Fermín.
Era indescriptible, sinceramente, ver a un futuro cura sentir tanta atracción por la carne de la mujer. Y como eso prácticamente lo persiguió toda la vida, lo definió como monseñor y persona, y se podría decir también que esos pensamientos suyos, sus tanto pesadillas como sueños, ¿fue lo que lo condenó a vivir una vida de servicio pleno a Dios, pero sin sentido alguno?

Es lo que me pregunto; yo, que he recibido educación católica desde la primaria, secundaria, y actualmente universitaria, jamás me había planteado ponerme en los zapatos de los servidores devotos a Dios hasta leerme esta novela.
¿Tuvieron alguna duda de su elección de vida? Como Fermín, en su solitaria preparación para convertirse en cura, la tuvo en ocasiones, nombrando su futura vocación como un destino que, casi sin darse cuenta, otros trazaron por él.
¿Tuvieron anhelos ocultos e ilícitos —como el poder, el dinero, la gloria, y sobre todo, la mujer— que desaparecieron de sus vidas al recibir las órdenes sacerdotales? Como le ocurrió a Fermín a lo largo de toda su vivencia. ¿Los seguirán teniendo? Como, incluso ya de viejo y con tantas pérdidas que sobrellevar en su vida, también fue el caso del Monseñor Jované.

Actualmente me encuentro realizando mi labor social universitario en un convenio de monjas, y cuando las veo pasar o se dirigen hacia mi, no puedo evitar pensar en estas mismas preguntas para ellas, ¿por qué habrán escogido este camino de servidoras a Dios? ¿Habrán tenido sus dudas? ¿Habrán experimentado anhelos proscritos? ¿Habrán tenido algún amor imposible como el de Fermín y Francisca? Uno por el cuál habría valido la pena sacrificar y abandonarlo todo, inclusive sus sentidos y vocaciones de vida.

Podría hablar de esto todo el día, pero no puedo evitar hacerle mención a una de las últimas conversaciones que tuvo Monseñor Jované junto a su amada:
«Fermín, ¿acaso fue pecado nuestro amor?»
«No, Francisca, cuando se ama tanto no se puede pecar.»
POR DIOS, UNA BALA EN EL ESTÓMAGO DOLÍA MENOS.
Y cuando le contó que estaba embarazada de su primer hijo juntos, y él estaba dispuesto a abandonarlo todo, la Iglesia, su vocación, su sentido de vida, por segunda vez consecutiva, por ella.
Basta, debo dejar de sufrir por amores prohibidos.

Son muchísimas preguntas que me han surgido a lo largo de mi lectura, me pregunto si mi abuela me las podrá contestar. Nuevamente me debería sentir más orgullosa de mi misma de lo que realmente me siento, porque jamás creí acabarme un libro que contuviese este tipo de historia. Sé que ya lo dije anteriormente, pero es en serio, me sorprendo demasiado.
Creo que mucho de esto se debe a mi interés en saber la historia de un cura que llegó a tener hijos, algo que jamás había imaginado posible. Pero supongo que por eso mismo Fermín los hacía llamar anhelos ilícitos a lo largo de la novela.

Pero a veces me pregunto, ¿todo valió la pena al final, Fermín? Vivir una vida de servicio pleno al señor, pero renunciar a todas las cosas que te terminaron atormentando y tentando toda tu vida. ¿Valió la pena? No ser capaz de amar a Francisca por toda su vida, independientemente de que hayas vivido más que ella, su muerta la describiste como “un dolor que ya jamás te abandonaría.” Francisca, cuyos ojos azules marcaban en ti destellos de luz imposibles de olvidar; ojos, que inclusive en el último día con vida, fuiste incapaz de no hacerles mención, diciendo «… y Francisca, mi querida Francisca. ¿Se verán tan azules sus ojos en el cielo?

Es que, con tanto que abarcar sobre tus razones de porqué no hacerlo, porqué no tomar ese camino y continuar como otro joven istmeño descendiente de españoles, uno más del montón, ¿como esperas que no te cuestione tu decisión, Fermín? La pérdida te marcó a tu familia desde antes tú nacer, y los siguió hasta el último de tus días.
Y en lugar de estar más tiempo con ellos, te tocaba ir de aquí para allá, de allá para acá, cumpliendo misiones que nadie más que tu mismo te exigías y te proponías cumplir; huyendo siempre del verdadero y único amor de tu vida, convertida en el más profundo fruto prohibido de tu ser, la única mujer a la que amaste incondicionalmente. ¿Valió la pena? ¿O todo fue en vano?
Me dejas como enseñanza, acaso, ¿qué servirle fielmente a Dios es prácticamente imposible? ¿Qué ese camino nunca sería fácil para nadie? ¿Qué, quitando la espiritualidad, estás conduciéndote a vivir una vida solitaria, prácticamente para siempre?

En fin, me gustó mucho el libro. No le doy más de ⭐️⭐️⭐️ puesto que, si me gusto, no me encantó. Habían momentos de pura política y eso es algo que realmente no tolero y ya he dicho antes en una reseña mía anterior. Aunque si, ya sé que todo el tema de la política tocado en el libro era de suma importancia para entender toda la trama y la historia del monseñor. Y en serio me quedé pensando, al igual que Virginia, ¿por qué en las escuelas, principalmente las católicas, jamás se enseñó el hecho de que en un tiempo de nuestro país se cerraron todas las iglesias y se exiliaron a todos los que fueran devotos servidores del señor? ¿Es que acaso estaban intentando ocultar algo tan grande importancia como esto? ¿Se sentían avergonzados? Algo interesante en lo que pensar, ¿sabes?
—Y sobra explicar mi absoluta aborrecía hacía Raúl Alberto López. Maldito adultero, insensible e infiel. Dios, no lo soportaba—.
Quitando esos detalles, sin duda me gustó el libro, te deja cuestionando muchas cosas en la vida, el sentido que llega a tenerlo todo, inclusive el destino, que es por lo que realmente vale la pena sacrificarlo todo, y hasta que punto uno debe colocar límites en su propia vida.

Nuevamente, gracias abuelita por un libro tan profundo como este. Siempre sabes como sorprenderme y ampliar mis gustos y mi biblioteca, e inspirar mis reseñas. A ti te lo dedico y agradezco todo 🫶🏽

[Maria Beltrami]

Scritto in tempi non sospetti, questo libro raccoglie i dialoghi tra il capo spirituali della chiesa cattolica e quello dell'ebraismo in Argentina. Non è una dotta disputa teologica sulle due religioni, perché i due interlocutori SONO dotti teologi, e non devono dimostrare niente a nessuno, ma piuttosto una chiacchierata amichevole in cui ciascuno dice la sua sugli argomenti più disparati, assentendo o dissentendo sulle altrui opinioni in uno spirito di rispetto estremo, come devono fare i veri amici.
Interessanti e illuminanti le opinioni del futuro papa su diversi argomenti su cui da anni c'è un dibattito animato: eutanasia e fine vita, celibato dei preti, sacerdozio femminile, rapporto tra stato e chiesa, tanto per fare qualche esempio. E' già qui l'incredibile simpatia personale di un uomo che in pochi minuti ha mostrato che si può essere papi senza dimenticare di essere uomini, e che, per spiegarsi meglio, non disdegna di usare come riferimento, invece che le Scritture, i fumetti di Mafalda.

[Debra]

This very quick read is an only mildly interesting exchange between two religious leaders on topics that include past interfaith exchanges, abortion, divorce, euthanasia, fundamentalism, same-sex marriage, the holocaust, science, women – even a very brief discussion of pedophilic clergy - and others. The trend of the conversations is predictable, and the book really doesn’t offer anything new for the reader to discover. The reader expecting to get a glimpse into the minds of these two men will be disappointed. As representatives of the faith, working to achieve interfaith cooperation, they merely float above issues and do not even skim the surface of the serious matters the text claims to discuss. They may as well have said, “Hi. How are you?”
“I’m fine.”
“God is love.”
“Yeah, God is love.”
“Cool. Let’s agree to like each other.”
“Alright.”
“Until next time…God be with you.”
“And also with you.”

[Sue Coleman]

EXCELLENT BOOK!!!

A priest and a rabbi... (no really--that's who wrote the book).

I am neither Catholic nor Jewish, but I absolutely loved reading this book. It is a journal of dialog between two prominent leaders in their respective religious communities (one of them now the current Pope). An excellent example to us all in breaking down our walls of religiosity and overcoming predjudice. I found a great deal of insight, wisdom, comfort, and satisfaction in reading the interviews that took place between these two godly men.

I happily recommend this book to anyone without reservation. It is definitely a keeper.

[H (trying to keep up with GR friends) Balikov]

Argentinians, Bergoglio and Skorka, are scientifically trained and also religious leaders. This would be interesting in itself, but when one becomes the current Roman Catholic Pope Francis, there is more incentive to mine what has been said. The novelty of having both Catholic and Jewish points of view expands the discussion. The format is a series of dialogues on topics such as, religious leaders, death, women, the elderly, the devil, politics and power, poverty, abortion, same-sex marriage, and money.

Any one of these topics could spark a long book group discussion. There were times I was nodding along and times I was shaking my head, but I am very glad I read it.

[Bobby Morales]

This book has given me a better understanding on how the church should face current issues, as well as the crucial importance of interrelations dialogue for the good of all people. Peaceful and thought-provoking ideas are all throughout the book that will help Christians better understand the world around them. It's a short-simple to read book of edifying dialogue between Pope Francis and an Argentinian Rabbi. Thanks be to God for these men and their literary contribution! I highly recommend this book.

[Bob]

The cover describes it as 'las opiniones del papa Francisco I sobre la familia, la fe, y el papel de la Iglesia en el siglo XXI' but the conversations themselves offer much more -- Rabbi Skorka's insights on all these things, the role of religion in Argentine history, a Latin American perspective on world events, and a model of genuinely civil dialog on genuinely divisive topics. While the conversations have been carefully edited, there are spontaneous moments:
B."¿le conté la anécdota del Rolex de oro?"
S. "No."
B. "Una vez, cuando ya era obispo..." (p. 161)

[Sarah]

I read this as spiritual reading for the last month or so, and I can't emphasize enough how wonderful a read it is. The book is a conversation between Pope Francis (back when he was Cardinal Archbishop of Buenos Aires, Jorge Bergoglio) and Rabbi Abraham Skorka. They cover all sorts of topics, some of which I had no interest in until I read what they had to say. I found myself highlight as much of Skorka's thought as I did Bergoglio's. Overall, highly recommended.

[Jill]

A great dialogue between Pope Francis and Rabbi Skorka. It had enough depth to encourage thought, but generally just gave a brief overview of each topic. Not deep enough to truly give a full understanding of the teachings of the Catholic Church or of the Jewish faith, but gave a fair introduction to the shared values as well as the differences between the two. The mutual respect and openness to dialogue are a great example of what true ecumenism should be. Well worth reading.

[Casey Taylor]

An interesting way to be introduced to (the now) Pope Francis as he dialogues with a rabbi friend about a range of topics, including national issues (Argentina), sexuality, politics and the future of religion.

The text is interesting mostly because it sheds light onto Francis, but it's not the most exciting read. Premised on interfaith dialogue between friends, It's mostly agreements: "Oh, I like that! Yes, I agree."

[Lynne]

Loved this book. It's an honest dialogue between a Christian and a Jewish person about "life." It's great how principles and morals are the same and it illustrates how all religions can coexist. I've always believed there is one God but believers just choose different paths to get there!

[Filip Struhárik]

Dávam tri hviezdičky, lebo aj keď boli niektoré kapitoly dobré a (aj pre laika) veľmi zaujímavé, iné boli spracované slabo, povrchne. Posledné kapitoly s politickým a historickým presahom boli už naozaj slabšie, bez dostatočnej argumentácie a zdrojovania.

[Marianna]

I actually found that the rabbi's voice resonated more for me. An excellent example of what constructive, open-minded dialogue is.

[Teresa Weaver]

I enjoyed hearing the views of Pope Francis and Abraham Skorka. The book focused on similarities between the Catholic and Jewish religon.

[D]

Great dialogue between two men of great faith.

Ernesto Sabato - One and the Universe “One sets off for distant lands, or seeks the knowledge of man, or investigates nature, or searches for G-d; only afterwards does he realize that the phantom he was chasing was Himself.”

Dialogue requires that each participant become acquainted with the other person.
“G-d’s candle is man’s soul which reveals the innermost parts of his being.” Prov 20:27
In its most profound sense, to have a conversation is to bring one’s soul nearer to another’s in order to reveal and illuminate his or her core.

The Divine Breath, which both possess, knows to unite the two and then form a link with Him that will never weaken, as it is written, “A cord of three strands is not quickly torn apart” Eccl 4:12

One day we set a time and place so that we could just sit together and talk.

The dimensions of spiritual life that one attains by oneself only acquire meaning when they are used to help uplift others.

Friendship means sharing meals and spending time together, but the sign of real friendship is the ability to reveal what is in one’s heart to the other person.

I cannot do without the path. One encounters God walking, moving, seeking Him and allowing oneself to be sought by Him. They are two paths that meet.

Every person must look inside himself. DIstraction is an interior fracture. It will never lead the person to encounter himself for it impedes him from looking into the mirror of his heart. Collecting oneself is the beginning. That is where the dialogue begins. Seek the experience of entering into the intimacy of your heart, to know the experience, the face of God.

Micah explains to the Israelites: Do justice and love goodness, and walk humbly with your G-d.

The work of man must maintain a balance between the gift and the task. When he keeps the gift alone and does not do the work, he does not complete his mission and remains primitive; when man becomes overly zealous in work, he forgets about the gift, creating a constructivist ethic. We receive creation in our hands as a gift.

Teachers that act as if everything they say is absolutely correct - you cannot trust
There always has to be room for doubt

Skorka Politics and religion are two systems that deal with the same problem - man & his difficulties. Education is the people’s only defense against leaders that would do them harm.

Bergogglio Celibacy is in the Western rite, but the Catholic Byzantine, Ukrainian and Greek rites can marry; bishops cannot - they remain celibate. Until 1100, Catholic priests chose celibacy little by little. Later, in Eastern Churches, they continued noncelibacy tradition as a personal option, and in the West it was the other way. It can change.

Skorka Aphorism in Talmudic literature: Respect everyone, and suspect them as well.

The verb “to pray” in Hebrew is “l’hitpalal’ which means to judge oneself. Every time we want to get closer to G-d, the first thing we do is determine our personal defects

Bergogglio Part of teaching includes not replacing another person’s decision. The priest who adopts an attitude of only being a boss nullifies and emasculates those who are searching for God. The priest proposes the truth as it is revealed, and accompanies. Though he may witness failure, he accompanies. The teacher who nullifies the decision-making for his disciple is not a good priest; he is a dictator, denying others their religious personalities.

Skorka In today’s world where there is such terrible uncertainty, where things change from one minute to the next, many people crave something that is ‘true,’ even if it is superficial; something solid to hold onto in the midst of an ever-changing reality. There are certain truths with respect to G-d that we can only find by ourselves. In Judaism, as in other religions, one can find leaders that dictate how others should live, denying the religious feelings that are supposed to emanate from within each person.

Bergogglio In Catholicism, the teacher presents the truth of God and shows the path. But if he is a true teacher, he allows the disciple to walk and he accompanies him in his spiritual life.

Skorka Fundamentalism is an attitude - things are understood to be a certain way and there is nothing to discuss -- there is no other way

No one can arbitrarily impose ‘the truth’ on anyone else. We should teach and guide people, after which each person will live the truth as they understand it, based on their sincere feelings. These are things that fundamentalism rejects.

Bergogglio This type of restorationist fundamentalism is an opiate because it takes you away from the living God. Opium is an idol that alienates you, as any idol does. It reduces God to a being that you can manage with prescriptions. If I do this, everything will be fine… It is a form of buying comfort, well-being, fortune and happiness, but it leaves behind the living God, He who accompanies you along the way.

Skorka Fundamentalism goes even further than that; it entails evaluating and judging others. Since that person does not live the way I believe G-d says they should, I can kill them. That is the type of extreme fundamentalism that leads to hatred.

When all is said and done, institutions are built by men.


Bergogglio My grandmother taught me 2 rhymes: "Mira que te mira Dios, / mira que te está mirando, / mira que te has de morir, / mira que no sabes cuándo" (Rodríguez Marín - perhaps?). See that God watches you, see that He is watching you; see that you will have to die and you do not know when.

Man who walks, stop and think about your pace, your steps, the final step.

The danger is to fall in love with the path and lose the vision of the goal; and another danger is quietism: to be looking at the goal and not do anything on the way. Christianity had very strong periods of quietist movements that went against the command of God, which says that one has to work and transform the earth.

Skorka (when visiting a terminally ill man) In Hebrew, I told him, “Stay at peace.” This man was completely at peace. He said goodbye to this life, with life. He passed away two days later.

Bergogglio Anguish exists. It is the moment of detachment, of separation. Detachment is not easy but I believe that God is there ready to take your hand when you are about to leap. One has to abandon oneself in the hands of the Lord; alone, one cannot survive.

The feminine presence in the Church has not been emphasized much, because the temptation of chauvinism has not allowed for the place that belongs to the women of the community to be made very visible.

Woman has been the object of use, of profit, of slavery, and was relegated to the background; but in the Scriptures we have cases of heroic women that have transmitted to us what God thinks about them, like Ruth, Judith…

Part of the great adventure, as you said, is to mutually decipher ourselves. There was a priest who said that God made us man and woman so that we would love one another and be needed by one another. In preaching on marriage, I usually say to the grom that he has to make the bride more of a woman and the bride that she has to make the groom more of a man.

There is a difference between a professor and a teacher. The professor presents his material in a detached manner, while the teacher involves others; it is profoundly testimonial. There is also a coherence between his conduct and his life. He is not merely a transmitter of science, as is a professor. We need to help men and women to become teachers, so they can be witnesses; that is essential in education.

Skorka charity is assistance that is urgently needed and extended to those in need quickly and immediately. Tzedakah - is a tax that we should pay to help the needy. Tzedek means justice. Any society with people in need is intrinsically unjust and through tzedakah we can try to correct this failure, at least in part.Another concept in Talmudic literature is that of gemilut hasadim translated as “acts of loving-kindness.” Every act of tzedakah should be performed with mercy.

Pope Pius XII was educated in the environs of the Vatican and his family was connected to the Holy See. He was part of a group that believed that anything could be achieved through diplomacy, and if a solution could not be found through diplomacy, then there was no solution. Roncalli, John XXIII, came from a humble family and a small village where people were taught how important it was for everyone to take care of one another through quick, practical solutions - the complete opposite of diplomacy. Therein perhaps lies the reason for the differences between the two popes.

Bergogglio John XXIII, until the moment of his death, continued being a rural peasant. On his death bed, his sister placed on his head cold cloths with vinegar, just like they did in the country.

Historical interpretation has to be understood from the hermeneutic of that time. As long as we use extrapolated hermeneutics, we distort history and become unable to understand it. If we do not study cultural contexts, we make outdated interpretations that are out of place; like what happens when we talk about the Crusades.

[hermeneutics = the branch of knowledge that deals with interpretation, especially of the Bible or literary texts]

“Little Susan” or Susanita is the most unsympathetic and judgmental character from Mafalda, one of the most popular comic strips in Argentina. Similar to Charlie Brown, most of the characters that surround Mafalda, who is the melancholic, though philosophical, protagonist, are children.

When one has a problem, only a mountain can be seen ahead and nothing else. Somebody has to say, “It would be better if you go over here, or try over there.” When I have a problem with someone, it helps me to have the same attitude that the Egyptian monks had at the beginning of Christianity. They accused themselves so they could find a solution; they put themselves in the defendant’s seat to see what things were not working well inside of themselves. I do it to observe how things are not working well inside of me. This attitude gives me freedom to, later, be able to forgive the fault of the other person. The mistake of the other person does not need to be emphasized too much because I have made my own mistakes and both of us have failures. The harmony between people is made by searching for ways; that is the manner to resolve animosities.

Skorka The truth can only be attained through humility.

Bergogglio The way of putting things in black and white is a sinful tendency that always conflicts over unity. Humility is what levels the paths for an encounter; favoring conflict only puts obstacles in the path, and the Spirit of God manifests itself in that leveling.

German Lutheran theologian, Oscar Cullman, proposes that we walk together in a reconciled diversity; he resolves the religious conflict of the many Christian denominations by walking together, by doing things together, by praying together. He asks that we not throw rocks at each other, but rather than we continue walking together. It is the way of advancing the resolution of a conflict with the virtues of all, without nullifying the diverse traditions or falling into syncretism. Each one, from their identity, in reconciliation, seeking the unity of truth.

syncretism = the amalgamation or attempted amalgamation of different religions, cultures, or schools of thought.

Skorka Man lives in conflict, wherein lies his greatness, and his possible downfall. There is a place in the Talmud that says that man has both angelic and animalistic traits. The angels are completely spiritual beings but they do not have free will as they simply comply with G-d’s commands. Man, on the other hand, does have free will, animal traits and spiritual traits. These characteristics are in constant conflict with each other.

[Aira]

"On Heaven and Earth" offers a unique perspective on faith and religion in the modern world. The book is a collection of conversations between Jorge Bergoglio and Rabbi Abraham Skorka. Both Argentinian religious leaders, Bergoglio and Skorka engage in a thoughtful and friendly exchange of ideas, exploring themes of faith, family and the challenges facing the Catholic Church in the 21st century.

One of the book's strengths is the interfaith dialogue. By bringing together a Catholic leader and a Rabbi, the book highlights the common ground between these two major religions, while also acknowledging their differences. This even-handed approach can be refreshing for readers of any faith background or even those with no particular religious affiliation.

The discussions range from personal stories and family life to complex theological concepts. Readers interested in Pope Francis' thinking before he became the head of the Catholic Church will find particularly valuable insights. While the book delves into philosophical and religious ideas, it also stays grounded in real-world issues. Bergoglio and Skorka discuss topics such as poverty, globalization, and the role of religion in society.

"On Heaven and Earth" is by no means a dense theological treatise. It's a thoughtful conversation between two respected religious leaders, offering a glimpse into their faith and their perspectives on the world. Those seeking a deeper understanding of interfaith dialogue or Pope Francis' approach to Catholicism would find this book to be a worthwhile read.

[Jason]

This is very much, in spite of the name, a duet from the Pope and an influential rabbi (Judaism doesn't have the hierarchy that Catholicism does). People that understand religion won't be that surprised to find that the two agree on almost everything (as probably will people with highly evolved moralities independent of religion, for that matter). Some of the arguments made feel bizarre and kinda weak - like Pope Francis on feminism - but overall this was one of the better books I've read about the Pope.