Visul din pavilionul roșu

by Cao Xueqin, Ileana Hogea-Velişcu (Translator), Iv. Martinovici (Translator)

For more than a century and a half, Dream of the Red Chamber has been recognized in China as the greatest of its novels, a Chinese Romeo-and-Juliet love story and a portrait of one of the world's great civilizations. Chi-chen Wang's translation is skillful and accurate.

Genres: Classics, Fiction, China, Historical Fiction, Asia, 18th Century, Historical

703 pages, Paperback

First published January 1, 1791

About the author

Xueqin Cao (Chinese: 曹雪芹; pinyin: Cáo Xuěqín; Wade–Giles: Ts'ao Hsueh-ch'in, 1715 or 1724 — 1763 or 1764) was the pseudonym of a Qing Dynasty Chinese writer, best known as the author of Dream of the Red Chamber, one of the Four Great Classical Novels of Chinese literature.
It has been suggested that his given name was Zhan Cao (曹霑) and his courtesy name is Mengruan (夢阮; 梦阮; literally "Dream about Ruan" or "Dream of Ruan")[...]

Reviews

[J · Rating 5 out of 5]

This is the fascinating story, the epic story of the Jia Clan.
A story of Baoyu born with a stone in his mouth.
A love story of Bayou and his nieces, connected in difficult friendships and tragic love.
A story of Baoyu losing the magical stone…

A journey through interwoven chambers in the luxurious Jia estate where manners, protocols, feudal forms steer intrigues, powerplays. The lazy life of poetry and pleasure, play and perfect idleness, protected by privileged ties with the emperor.

A journey in the Red Chambers where women rule, plot, compromise and loose themselves in cover-ups to keep the reputation up in the feudal patriarchy.
But the tragic downfall of the Jia Clan is looming behind the many many intertwined stories, behind the hundreds of colorful characters.

It is said that this novel remains so popular that even the Cultural Revolution under Mao was unable to censor it from the libraries, even if it was completely at odds with the communist ideology.

A masterpiece.
Impossible to grasp the complexity, the depth, the range of this masterpiece in one read.
This is definitively a must read and re-read! It is worth the effort.

Looking forward to start again.

[Ian · Rating 4 out of 5]

The Kindle edition of Dream of the Red Chamber was released earlier this year! Now you can own this 1000+ page epic for only 10 dollars!

This book is one of the essential Chinese classics with well over 300 developed characters, Buddhist and Taoist philosophy lessons, and serves as a beautiful portrait of Qing dynasty China in the 1700s. It also broke new ground by using several dialects and common vernacular mixed in with the high language spoken at court. It is a semi-autobiographic, psychological novel that provoked much controversy for its refusal to shy away from sexual content.

Since this is a very demanding and complex novel, I really need to re-read this at some point. There's a LOT to take in.

[Paul Lemcke · Rating 3 out of 5]

Such a big project for this reader who has so little experience with Chinese literature and culture. Overall I enjoyed it, but I fear that I missed so much along the way. The attention to family names, the social niceties, the social hierarchy among the elites of this period, the rules for how men and women relate to each other, and the generosity. On the other side is the blunt meanness, and the retribution.
I think I understand why this novel is so important to Chinese literature, and I am glad I read it.

[A G]

A very, very complicated, lightly "censored" and literal translation of the first 56 chapters (out of 120) of the novel. Any translator living with illusion that, in order to transmit the beauty of the source language completely, one should translate every word and most idioms literally into the the target language, should read this edition. He/she will be permanently cured.

No rating from me here, as this edition on Goodreads it bundled up with the original and other translations.

[Ian · Rating 2 out of 5]

Even this edited and abridged version is 500 pages long and has an enormous cast list. A pillar of Chinese literature, but I failed to engage enough with it. I did find it enlightening on Chinese attitudes to authority, patronage, family, servants and particularly women, but that is about it. The culture gap was just too wide for me to appreciate its subtleties or what makes it such a revered text.

[Karla Yu · Rating 5 out of 5]

I encountered this book way back when I was in high school and, since then, have been searching for a copy for myself.

I can't wait to relive the story.

[Clarenz]

I THINK I'LL ENJOY READING THIS BOOK

[Never · Rating 4 out of 5]

I love the mysticism and the tragic romance. Brilliant characterizations. Rich display of Chinese culture.

[Andrew Nease · Rating 3 out of 5]

Oh, boy...

This was really kind of the same thing as happened with my review of Aristotle's Metaphysics: the rating I've given it is a tentative one, resulting from my complete inability to follow the dry-as-dirt and dull-as-dishwater text I was reading, and slated to be reviewed upon my completion of a reread at some point in the future to be determined.

Unlike the Metaphysics, however, I have a firmer idea of what's the actual book and what's the translator, and I'm pretty confident that that rating will actually be a much more favorable one.

The Dream of the Red Chamber is an interesting book. In addition to being one of the monolithic Four Great Novels you hear about in Chinese literature, its basic elevator plot sounded intriguing to me: a chronicle of life in the women's quarters of a great house, mixing satire, mysticism, and some light sexiness. Hell, there's a whole academic discipline -- redology -- dedicated to studying this one, particular book. That's the kind of shit that I'm a fool for. And there's enough of the original book that shines through this version that I can tell that it's everything it's cracked up to be.

But that's in spite of the translation, not because of it.

So, this translation was apparently written by a British consular official in early twentieth-century Macau who, quite tragically, died young, having only completed the first fifty-six chapters. And, don't get me wrong: I WANT to like that; I can certainly respect someone being so moved by a work of literature -- especially a work of a foreign literature, at that time not particularly known or respected in the West -- that he feels the need to share it with people, and I'm sorry the guy died. But this translation is HORRIBLE!!!!!!

No, I'm not a redologist; no, I can neither speak nor read Chinese, and so can't objectively judge it against the original. But it doesn't matter: the problems are basic ones of style that have nothing to do with what's being translated, though they certainly hurt it. Imagine the worst possible Edwardian/late Victorian novel of manners, written by the most disgraceful hack of that era you can imagine: that's basically what this reads like.

Some of the problems are ones where the translator simply has no faith in his readers' ability or willingness to understand that they're reading about a different culture, sort of equivalent to when old-school dubs of anime series used to have people giving prices in dollars or talking about what they were going to do for Christmas. Or, better yet, when they awkwardly spliced Raymond Burr into Godzilla. Like, I'm pretty sure that when characters here are playing 'dominoes,' they're actually playing mahjongg. I don't know WHAT stringed instrument(s) characters are playing in certain scenes (at least one of them is probably a samisen), but I'm pretty sure it's not a 'guitar,' and it's sure as fuckfire not a goddamn 'BANJO!' And then he poetically refers to the moon as 'fair Selene,' or describes two young lovers 'in Venus's embrace,' and you want to pull your goddamn hair out.

Some of the times, the problem is that his choice of language is just laughably precious. So you'll have the hierarchical relationships in families indicated by calling them 'Master/Miss/Mr./Mrs. Secundus/a,' which is just such a pretentiously douchy upper-class Victorian thing to say and as jarringly out of place in the refined Chinese milieu as the idea that these people are playing dominoes or a-strummin' on the ol' ban-joe. Add to this the what-the-fuck habit of referring to people as 'uterine siblings' (I... guess he means people born of the same mother, as opposed to the half-siblings that would be common in a family dynamic where the father of the family might have secondary wives... but then why the hell not just say 'full siblings?') and the inexplicable (and damn-near CONSTANT!) habit of using the non-word 'eatables' when he means 'food' (and, for that matter, 'repast' instead of 'meal'), and the sheer number of characters who 'ejaculate' when they talk (which, normally, I defend... but it happens ALOT, and most of the characters couldn't possibly be excited enough to justify it), and you just want to tell the poor guy to stop making an ass of himself. And that's BEFORE he calls someone's face their 'phiz.' Yeah. He does that.

And, to round out the offenses, there are a couple of times where you have to wonder if he even understands what words mean. And, like, not even especially uncommon words. There are a couple of moments where it seems like he thinks 'smile' refers to a tone of voice. Like, he'll say something like '"it's a pity you were so deep in the embrace of our totally established Chinese mythological figure Morpheus that you missed all the eatables at the repast, and half of the game of dominoes, Uterine Sister Septima," smiled Character Name knowingly.' I mean... Jesus, what even IS that!? And, also... I'm not wrong, right? The word 'hussy' is like a G-rated way of calling someone a slut, isn't it? Like you call someone a hussy and you mean she's kind of easy, wants it a little too much, doesn't mind making a fool of herself in the process... right? That's what it's always meant? Well, the translator here, several times, has a character call another character a hussy as if he assumed that it meant something like 'dummy' or 'silly goose:' like a gentle and friendly way of saying someone's not too bright. It eventually got to the point where I wouldn't have felt more like I was reading something in a language I didn't speak, and certainly would have been less annoyed, if I was just staring at a copy written in the original Chinese.

And, to some extent, that reflects poorly on the publisher. Like, I get that there's apparently only one complete English translation, and it's so recent that it's probably still under copyright, but there have to be BETTER incomplete translations than this? In fact, by the end I was ready to thank God fasting that there WASN'T more included than this.

So, some day I'm going to read that complete translation, which I hear is a decent one. And, when that happens, I think I could see that rating going up to four, or even five stars. But if I could have separated the translation from the book it was translating, it probably would have been the first thing on here that I'd be willing to give a two-star rating to.

[Lance Noel · Rating 3 out of 5]

WARNING! THIS IS NOT THE COMPLETE STORY! IT IS ONLY 56 OUT OF THE 120 CHAPTERS!!

I bought this book and found out as i started reading that this is only less than half the full story because the translator literally died (??) during the translation, and they just put out whatever was done?? What da heck?!? Literally the last line of the book is:

"But what she wanted to tell him is not yet known, so, reader, listen to the circumstances recorded in the subsequent chapter."

Only there is no subsequent chapter!! I had to buy 3 other books from another translation to finish this, and i'm going to move onto it next.... On top of all this, the translation is very awkward. There's no notes, appendices, anything that could provide any context (I noted that the other books i bought do indeed have this). Indeed, it's fortunate i know some chinese since i was able to understand some of the translation better than what Joly did....

Anyway, it's a fun and solid actual story, so 4 stars for that, but 2 stars for the translation itself

[Amanda · Rating 4 out of 5]

In reading The Story of the Stone by Cao Xuequin one is in for wild bouts of passion, drama, and entanglement. Much like soap operas in today’s television, casting the inner workings of often time a family or a large character list, The Story of the Stone enraptures its reader thus, making the page turn quite quickly for what’s to happen next. When watching or reading anything in entertainment there is always a main character or even a romantic couple that garners the focus of one’s attention, it’s these individuals that often become the driving force of the story.

Throughout the narrative I found that the main character to be of importance was Bao-yu, Dai-yu, and Bao-chai. These characters I found were tumultuous, often in a back and forth rapport with one another—Bao-yu being the main agitator. Their importance being that as a whole in regard to the story they show the interworking of not only a family of high standard in China but, display emotion that despite any title is purely human—love. Dai-yu and Bao-chai by themselves in the story are important especially because they are a foil of each other. They are a sort of yin and yang of each other’s personality and form. Where Bao-chai is the definition of her title and decorum, voluptuous, highly intelligent, and predestined to marry Bao-yu, Dai-yu isn’t. Dai-yu being the emotional one, is prone to having fits of jealousy, her physical presence dainty and as well as an accomplished musician and poet. In reflection, these girls exemplify the contrasting inclinations Bao-yu is prone to not only be attracted to romantically but, also displays erratic characteristics he has within his personality.

Symbols throughout this story are prevalent, as well as an important key to reading between the lines in regards to the mystical theory behind the Jia family. However, two symbols in the story that can be seen is the mentioning of flowers and the use of food. First, in chapter 27 Dai-yu buries flowers as a hobby, which overall articulates that flowers represent women which are looked at as a symbol of purpose instead of beauty. The second symbol mentioned was the used of food. In chapter 26 the Jia family has an abundance of food, and as customary they insist on the extended family to enjoy the food with them. This small insistence represents a larger view; food is used as the center of social interaction.

Cao Xuequin’s narrative is not only viewed by most as “…an embodiment of [the Chinese’s] national identity” (Rearick), but also a good representation of vernacular literature. The story is told in a detailed description with lively dialogue and encapsulates the likes of oral storytelling. Vernacular Chinese literature, unlike classical, is unrelenting in its approach to unblemishing what was previously omitted in topics concerning sex, violence, humor, and in general creative plots. The Story of the Stone was written in a time of experimentation and freedom from its classical reigns much like the Romanticism age in British Literature.

[Jon · Rating 3 out of 5]

Credit working a second job and general length of the book for making me take so long to get through this one. Or perhaps credit the fact that this book, although a classic of Chinese literature, goes nowhere. It reminded me of the Japanese classic The Tale of Genji, insofar as it is largely about court intrigues and relationships among a well-to-do family. Single chapters are great. Indeed, I read an excerpt from this book in an anthology, which made me look forward to reading this text. But the episodic nature of the book and the fact that the writer often introduces plot points that go nowhere ultimately make this something of a frustrating read.

The early chapters of the book recount the disappearance of a young woman and the family's reaction to it. It's a great set-up (where'd she go? what happened? don't know), but eventually, we end up spending time mostly with the family of one Pao-yu Secundus, a fifteen-year-old with many female cousins and servants who sloughs off at his schooling and displeases his father. As a portrait of this portion of China at this time, it's intriguing. Pao-yu forges a close friendship with one other male at one point, who then traipses off to other places. He forges close relationships with his various maids and cousins. They get together to write poetry and start a poetry club. Families of the maids visit. One lower-class mother of one of the maids visits, gets drunk, and makes a full of herself. One maid is given the opportunity to be the second wife to a rich older man, which she rejects, much to the shock of others. Pao-yu travels far off to a temple, unbeknownst to his family, indeed, hiding the very fact. Each of these things is told in discrete chapters, which alone are interesting enough. Together, not so much. Court life is tedious.

The book ends--or at least the version of the book I read--ends with Pao-yu meeting a doppelganger, another boy named Pao-yu, this one twelve years old, but otherwise similar in personality and looks and even class situation. He is even, at one point, somewhat mistaken for the other boy. Intriguing. But alas, it was just a dream. Not so intriguing. "And if you'd like to know what happens next, reader, you'll need to turn to the next chapter." That is, the book ends with the same ending that all other chapters carry, as if the author were writing a serial that was cancelled in its midst, with discrete chapters that feature the same characters but not always plot points that go from start to finish.

[Ele · Rating 5 out of 5]

"[...] but [birds] have mothers and fathers just the same. Can't you see how cruel it is to take them away from their nests and make them perform for people's amusement?"

This was the first Asian classic I've started, and it will most definitely not be the last. I read this in volumes and I think that also helped in the reading experience, for book this size can be daunting. It's a tragedy that non-European classics are never as well-known or as readily available as they should be. I wish it were not this way, because that we still do not have much classics from these cultures show how very narrow-minded we still remain.

This book was very much a learning experience. The day-to-day life of Qing dynasty is preserved through these pages, and the characters are so fascinatingly modern. They talk of the silliness of not allowing women an equal education, homosexuality is completely normalized and accepted amongst the upper classes, and even some things the characters may say sound as if said today, from a very edgy almost emo statement to the very lovely quote about birds that I have placed above. It also shows even the prescriptions when a character falls ill - I've never learned so much about one era in any other book.

The ending of this novel was the most precious thing I've ever read. I don't want to spoil it for you, so.... Cao Xueqin himself is featured, being given the story that was written by a stone so that he can turn it into a proper book.

The pacing of Chinese novels are very different than those Europeans and Americans are used to, an there is barely a plot. The best way to describe it is that they are many different stories clumped together, some of which may lead to the big reveal at the end. I enjoyed this, but many may be confused when they sit down to read and find it to be so.

Of course, not everything is good; the first volume (first 26 chapters) had many particularly disgusting moments. But thankfully, it becomes so much better once this volume is finished, so don't just drop it because you don't like the first part.
One may also find it to be annoyingly petty, as it has a focus on the upper-class, who are not always the most, well, not aggravating to read about.

If you want to see my singular reviews for the volume, here is the link to the first one: https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

[Ron · Rating 2 out of 5]

Baoyu is a thirteen-year-old scion of a wealthy 18th Century Chinese family, still ensconced with the female cousins and servants of his large household at the well-appointed family compound/mansion. Handsome and well-dressed Baoyu was born with a piece of jade in his mouth, and keeps the good-luck charm about his person.

The sexual coming-of-age of Baoyu is about as close as this tome ever has to having a story. And it accounts for less than 5% of the text. Otherwise we get a hopelessly large and confusing cast of characters, repetitively involved in a meditative way with family visits, arguments over money, reflections on natural beauty and styles of dress, tea, wine, eatables, and poetry.

I read this book out of some sense of duty, but it was a long and difficult haul. I am struggling to understand why the book is so well-regarded and famous. Could be that the social satire and consumption fantasy around this depiction of 18th Century Chinese aristocrats gets lost in translation, and it could be I'm not yet much of a poetry fan. Even if I loved poetry, it's hard to see how poetry can survive translation as you lose all of the meter and rhyming and alliterations.

At best, it is a pleasant visit with Baoyu and his soul-mate cousin Daiyu, and the lovely Baochai, and the beautiful and nurturing servant girl Xiren, and the harsh old supervisor of servants Lady Feng. Sort of like Downton Abbey in a different country and century, where you get to like hanging out with the gang even if nothing much is really happening.

[Jamie · Rating 3 out of 5]

This was the last of the 4 Chinese classics I read and probably the most difficult for me personally. There's just so much going on. There's hundreds of characters and all these details about relationships and rites and life during this period that I had to get the CliffNotes and go back. This is also how I discovered my copy only had 2/3rds of the story. I was a little disappointed when I thought I was so close to the end and discovered I missed the big tragedy and final arc of BaoYu's development.

However, despite my own struggles to grasp at all the relationships and ideas at work in this book, there were still things I enjoyed. It was easy enough to understand and come to like Granny Liu, whose simple life is the butt of jokes and so strongly in contrast to all the politicking that goes on in these wealthy families (that are declining). I was also really intrigued by the opening chapter with the stone and how that sets up the rest of the story.

All in all, this book was a bit hard but fascinating and I wish I understood more/had more guidance when reading it. Was also disappointed when I realized I hadn't actually finished the story even though I had finished the book. I may look for a TV show or drama to help me put a face to the different characters and better follow what is happening.

[Vintagebooklvr · Rating 3 out of 5]

2 1/2 stars. It is always interesting to read a classic of another culture. It reveals much about the time period it was written and what a culture continues to hold important. However, this story loses in the translation. Some forms of Chinese literature is very different than Western culture and does not have an equivalent. For some poetry the beauty of the characters used to write down the poetry is a part of the experience. That does not translate into Western culture.

In addition, there is a lot of explanation of how people are related to each other, which is needed because there are so many characters in the story but it also becomes boring after a while. Don't get me wrong, it is a good story and the quality is evident. It just not my cup of tea.

[Cinnamingirl]

I have been reading this for months, and that's enough. I don't think it's a bad book, but the translation seems poorly done - there are so many things in the story that don't make sense to someone who doesn't have a background in Chinese history and the translator doesn't seem to have made any attempt to help with those (as well as weird plot things - lady feng seems so cool and then suddenly she changes into this deceptive liar?) Also, this particular edition of the Kindle book has a lot of weird spacing errors.

When I was reading it everyday it wasn't bad, but I wasn't itching to pick it up again. There are other things that I am excited about, so I am moving on to those.

[Debbie · Rating 2 out of 5]

#50
I think I understand why this was such an important book in Chinese literature, and there were definitely parts that I enjoyed.
But the poetry was painful to get thru (perhaps the beauty of the poetry did not translate well into English) and I was probably half-way thru the book before I really understood the sarcasm / hidden emotions behind the overwhelming us of 'smile'.
I can't say that I would recommend this book to anyone who is wanting to read something they will enjoy, but I do think I have a better understanding of Chinese culture / family dynamics in the late 18th century.

[Thomas · Rating 3 out of 5]

This is an interesting account of every day life in 18th century China.

It is mostly the story of a young man named Jia Baoyu, who appears to be a reincarnated mystical stone, along with a large number of mostly female relatives.

There are so many characters in this book that it was impossible to keep them all straight. Not much of any great importance seems to happen. I think many of its literary qualities might be lost in translation.

This really comes across to me like a great Chinese soap opera.

[Sarah · Rating 4 out of 5]

Beautifully written (albeit sometimes drawn out). It is clear to see how this is one of the great Chinese classics. The author's depiction of 18th century China makes the reader feel as though they are right in the midst of it. Highly recommended.

[rebecca · Rating 2 out of 5]

Great to have an insight to Chinese culture, but nothing was explained, like the smiling, so this is better for those learning the language or some such. It's unfinished and very confusing - you can see that the writer doesn't really know what he's doing, which made for a very tedious read.

[Louis Hendrison · Rating 5 out of 5]

Don't get the book if it's written by H. Bencraft Joly. It's utter garbage if you don't have a wide understanding of english. It uses such complex words to the level that it is not enjoyable.

[Priya]

DNF I really tried to complete this book both in audio and kindle but just couldn't get into it.

[Bob Kaufman · Rating 3 out of 5]

There was not a well defined storyline. It consists more of a series of discourses on social, familial, literary, medical, culinary, philosophical aspects of eighteenth century Chinese culture.