Here But Not Here: My Life with William Shawn and The New Yorker

by Lillian Ross

In this fascinating and beautiful memoir, the renowned New Yorker writer Lillian Ross tells a remarkable love story of the passionate life she shared for forty years with William Shawn, The New Yorker's famous editor."All enduring love between two people, however startling or unconventional, feels unalterable, predestined, compelling, and intrinsically normal to the couple immersed in it, so I would have to say that I had an intrinsically normal life for over four decades with William Shawn. . . . I have a lasting sense of the normalcy of it all. It was a normalcy that Bill Shawn was able to create for himself and for me against all normal odds."Shawn was married, yet Ross and Shawn created a home together a dozen blocks south of the Shawns' apartment, raised a child, and lived with discretion. Their lives intertwined from the 1950s until Shawn's death, in 1992. Ross describes how they met and the intense connection between them; how Shawn worked with some of the best writers of the period; how, to escape their developing liaison, Ross moved to Hollywood, and there wrote the famous pieces that became Picture, the classic story of the making of a movie--John Huston's The Red Badge of Courage--only to return to New York and to the relationship. The love of Shawn and Ross for each other made it impossible for them ever to part. ----This book is a gem, an exquisitely told real-life story more potent than fiction.

Genres: Memoir, Nonfiction, New York, Biography, Biography Memoir

240 pages, Paperback

First published January 1, 1998

About the author

Lillian Ross was an American journalist and author, who was a staff writer at The New Yorker from 1945 until she retired.

Librarians note: There is more than one author in the Goodreads database with this name.

Reviews

[Tessa · Rating 1 out of 5]

Lillian Ross wants us to believe that her decades-long affair with her boss at the New Yorker, William Shawn, was a great love story and a true marriage in fact if not in law. But the tone she strikes is so false, so self-glorifying, so emotionally obtuse, that I was left wondering how much of her story was true and how much is self-consoling fantasy. She insists that her affair with Shawn gave her no career advantage, that they never, ever quarreled, that the sex was always terrific, that Shawn's wife and children were perfectly reconciled to the senior Shawn's pseudo-bigamous arrangement, and dozens of similar claims that leave the reader saying, again and again, "Really, Lillian? Really?"

Because Ross's memoir sticks so resolutely to its happy-talk line of argument, it's pretty thin and not very interesting, not even the New Yorker anecdotes. But Ross herself comes across as quite a monster--a great character for some other writer to really do something with.

[Laurie · Rating 2 out of 5]

It's too bad that Bill Shawn was not around to edit this mess. Loads of repetition and self-congratulating drivel. And likely a very hurtful book to Shawn's wife and children. She also said nasty things about Dorothy Parker which put her in my 'bad books' right off the bat. A look back with rose-colored glasses - her decades-long affair seems to have been sanctioned by the Gods themselves.

I purchased this (second hand- thank God ) because the words "The New Yorker" were in the title - and that's the reason I was generous with two stars.

[Lobstergirl]

Gardner Botsford: "Lillian Ross had been busy in the ranks, but she was more or less a joke - her and Shawn's assumption that nobody noticed that they were an item was a comic staple in the office. Then I read Here but Not Here, Ross's self-aggrandizing effort to establish herself as the real Mrs. Shawn and as privy council to Shawn in running the magazine, and I realized she was no joke. I now knew not only the who but the why."

[Liz Gray · Rating 2 out of 5]

Ross was the long-time (40+ years) mistress/lover/partner of fabled New Yorker editor William Shawn (father, with wife Camille, of actor Wallace and musician Allen). Ross describes their meeting, their lives working and living (sort of) together, and their romantic relationship. Ross is an excellent writer of nonfiction, author of many memorable New Yorker profiles, but she misses the mark in this memoir, a rosy paean to Shawn that reveals little. Everything was always wonderful, their love was perfect, and everyone understood. Not only does the story not ring true, but it also left a bad taste in my mouth. And I found the name-dropping irritating.

[Scott Collins · Rating 1 out of 5]

Ugh. A New Yorker writer's attempt to glue rhinestones on her squalid affair with her boss, the legendary William Shawn. Unedifying and unsatisfying upon reading, and the passage of some years hasn't softened the initial verdict. Should have stayed on the slush pile.

[Boyd · Rating 1 out of 5]

A perfectly appalling book, so self-congratulatory, unreflective, and riddled with purple prose that I couldn't finish it, despite my interest in the legendary _New Yorker_ editor William Shawn.

[Alana Cash · Rating 2 out of 5]

The title says that this book is about a true love story - that intrigued me - but the author never got there. The book is poorly structured so that it's all over the place and not in chronological order which would have been more interesting. Particurly since Ross claims to have given writing advice to Truman Capote, telling him that "...the key elements [in reporting] were the characters, their interaction with one another, and the background and dramatic development to their situation."

There were a lot of words of admiration of her love, Bill Shawn, and lots of use of the word love, but nothing really showed it to me, and anyway, the book is really about Lillian Ross's career and who she met (loads of name-dropping). There's no real descriptions - where was her office in regard to Shawn's? Why not describe the layout of the offices of The New Yorker because most of her readers will not have been there? What did she and Shawn enjoy about a movie so much that they would see it 3 times in a week? She stated that Shawn was phobic about cold weather - well, how about some cold weather description in the book. She said her writing made Shawn laugh - what was funny. I, personally, do not find The New Yorker to be laugh outloud. Amusing at most.

There was one wonderful description of the author ]and Shawn] looking out the window of her apartment at the building across the street - looking into 3 windows and seeing what the people were doing - why not more of that? Because, I needed to see what they saw, hear what they heard, smell, taste, etc. Just saying "we loved each other" doesn't make me feel that.

I did feel her love for her son. So how did that come across and her 40-year love affair did not. That she admired Shawn is clear, but that she loved him is not.

There was some silliness to the writing. For example, about the August 31, 1946 issue of The New Yorker, she writes...[the magazine issue was devoted to] John Hersey's "Hiroshima" about the tragic effects on the individuals in the city of the first atomic bombing in history." Okay, so there have been exactly 2 atomic bombings, so it's not necessary to say this was the first because the name Hiroshima already says"atomic bomg" in everyone's consciousness.

Some pages in the book were lists of names, reading like acknowledgements. I began to feel that this was designed so that those people would purchase the book - or several copies to give to friends. And the book was quite repetitive - how many times do you have to mention a phobia? Or "here but not here?"

Okay, so I gave the book 2 stars [instead of 1 star] because of that one wonderful description of New York via the apartment house across the street which I mentioned earlier, and because the author gave a lot of references to various articles in The New Yorker that I now intend to read.

[jana · Rating 3 out of 5]

quasi un meset amb aquet llibre. quina història tu. mira, a reus fan una fira que es diu Epíleg i com toca, a casa sempre hi anem. així doncs, passejant vam parar-nos a la parada de Saldonar i ens vam trobar amb un noi que ens va atendre com si fòssim uns reis, un do total de tranquil·litat i d’encatarinament. li vaig dir que el meu primer contacte amb la seva editorial havia estat la biografia de Murià i que m’havia encantat. així doncs, ell convençudíssim em va convèncer a comprar aquetes memòries. a més, parlant amb ell en dir-nos el seu nom vaig reconèixer-lo, era el traductor de la sally rooney, l’octavi!!!! per tant, va ser compra assegurada, unes memòries a nova york d’una jove periodista i amor, es va treure ràpid la cartera. ara, havent-lo llegit, puc dir que malgrat que l’edició i la traducció siguin excel·lents, costa de llegir. no puc entendre perquè una dona que fa les SEVES memòries és incapaç de parlar d’ella mateixa i es dedica a parlar constantment d’un reconegut escriptor, periodista i editor, cap del new yorker amb qui ni tan sols era parella de veritat perquè ell seguia casat i fent vida amb la seva dona! evidentment que és interessant i que m’agrada tota la narrativa que l’envolta i que és un bon producte, però m’he posat molt nerviosa llegint-lo i se m’ha fet llarg. a favor de les dones empoderades i que fan la feina segures i bé, sobretot, però tens més vida tia! a més a més, alguns comentaris els he trobat fora de lloc, tot i que suposo que és ‘normal’ per l’època…
va 3,5, no ho sé

[Joana · Rating 3 out of 5]

There is one word for this book: delusional. The author is truly delusional if she believes what Shawn was telling her all those years, including that his wife knew about and was OK with their relationship. Given that after Shawn died he left everything to his wife and made no mention of her or her son in his will and given that she was not invited to his cremation ceremony, how could she continue believing all she did?

She also is delusional if she expects readers to believe that she received no favoritism at the magazine. How many other writers were able to bring their children to work? How many other writers could take off as much time as they wanted whenever they wanted to stay home with their children? How many other writers remained on the payroll while, by her own admittance, essentially not writing anything?

The author seems to have the personality of one of those women who fall into cults. An interesting read because it is just so delusional but a terribly unflattering portrayal of the author and Shawn.

[David · Rating 2 out of 5]

I don't know that I have ever come across a writing style as ill-fitted for a memoir as the approach here. It seemed like a design flaw in two opposite directions at once. On one hand, despite this being a memoir, her (I presume) reporter's detachment was so prevalent you would have thought she hardly knew of whom she was writing at all. On the other hand, she was so completely emotional, the reader learned very little about her or anyone in her life. In the end you have an odd book about odd people in an odd relationship.

[Anita · Rating 4 out of 5]

The story of her life with William Shawn and the The New Yorker. Interesting memoir of a writer and mistress of the New Yorker editor. I liked the history of The New Yorker.

[Paul Wilner · Rating 2 out of 5]

Not her best work.

[Lilli · Rating 4 out of 5]

Fascinating look into the private life of Lillian Ross.

[Lizzie · Rating 3 out of 5]

I'm a sucker for anything about the New Yorker. The parts of this I found most interesting were her descriptions of how she became a writer and learned her craft. At one point she goes to Hollywood to put distance between her and Shawn, and writes a book about the making of a movie. I liked finding out how she struggled with how to portray the players in the drama of getting that done, and how she eventually decided to just record and let the events tell the story. Other writers criticized her for not putting her opinions into her stories, but she found a method that worked for her.

Ross was a wonderful editor, sensitive to all his writers, and put aside his own writings to help them. She appreciated him first as a great editor and kindred spirit at work, then he approached her romantically and she resisted for a long time. But finally she accepted the inevitable and they began a long affair that his wife knew about. He nursed his sorrow at being "there but not there" with his wife as he and Ross built a life together. If I sound judgmental, I'm not. It sounds like they all made the best of a difficult situation.

The parts about her life with Shawn were ultimately a dull hagiography. Apparently he and Lillian never had a quarrel or harsh words. He said things to her like "We must arrest our love in midflight. And we fix it forever as it is today, a point of pure light that will reach into eternity." I'm glad she found that romantic because it's rather incomprehensible to me. It sounds like they had a wonderful relationship and a good life together, but that doesn't make for a very interesting book.

[Beth Browne · Rating 4 out of 5]

I did not expect to like this book. I picked it up after finishing Nora Ephron's wonderful book, I Remember Nothing, in which she recounts two very unpleasant encounters with Lillian Ross. But, I was intrigued by the idea of this long term relationship within the context of his marriage. Plus, you know, being a native New Yorker and having practically learned to read on The New Yorker (my father was a lifetime subscriber)I couldn't help but be curious about the inner workings of this revered magazine.

Ross does an amazing job of telling this story without sentimentality or becoming maudlin, both of which could easily have happened. Her writing is crisp and clear and the story is told, not without emotion, but with heroic bravery. I was surprised to learn that she literally ran away from William Shawn, more than once. The fact that he was quite unable to let her go emotionally, but able to let her go physically, was fascinating. It was also a little creepy in a stalkerish sort of way, but I guess since it all worked out for them, it's okay.

Shawn is a very interesting character, to say the least, and this book seems a good portrayal. Ross is her own interesting character and she can certainly tell a tale. This one held me spellbound (I did get a little tired of the namedropping, but that was her world) and left me in tears at the end. A beautiful tribute to a remarkable man, by the woman who stayed by his side until parted by death. Or I should say, *one* of the women, for Shawn's wife Cecille is with him always as well. Sadly, Ross never regretted not having a marriage certificate, until the very end of Shawn's life.

[Bob · Rating 2 out of 5]

I was looking for anecdotes, but the book was the author's reminiscences of her love for William Shawn and an attempt to explain their unusual relationship. The tone of the book was curiously distant, and the title is apparently taken from a remark William Shawn had made to her that he felt that his life was unreal, that he was "there but not there." Anecdotes are more easily found in Brendan Gill's Here at the New Yorker or Thurber's The Years With Ross.
Still, if this is an accurate account of William Shawn's personality, it makes his already remarkable achievement even more inspiring.

[David Jordan · Rating 3 out of 5]

Ross, one of the pioneers of New Journalism, writes about her life and career. She admits at the outset that as a longtime reporter (mostly for The New Yorker) she found writing about herself instead of others difficult, and it shows. The understated style she wielded so deftly in magazine pieces and nonfiction books like “Picture” makes her personal reminiscences feel distant, almost cold, especially as she recounts the strange 40-year love affair she conducted with the married editor of The New Yorker, quirky William Shawn.

[Vikki · Rating 4 out of 5]

I got interested in this book because I had just read, Wish I Could Be There by Allen Shawn. This book is a biography of William Shawn written by Lillian Ross, his second wife. I found it all very interesting. I don't think Mr. Shawn could have lived with phobias if it wasn't for having two families. Ross seemed flip while Allen Shawn's book was sensitive and heartfelt. This book was much about journalism in New York in the 40's, 50's and 60's. A different time! Great book.

[Adam Piontek · Rating 3 out of 5]

I found the book scattershot as some have said, but also an intriguing look at some of the figures behind the mid-20th Century New Yorker magazine, and an intriguing look at an alternative-love pattern in a world less prepared for it than ours is today. Non-monogamy is behind many of the curtains of history, and here's but one window...

[Anna Paola · Rating 3 out of 5]

Given her background as a writer, I was surprised that this book was not better written. I did, however, find the story interesting because of their situation and because it was a New York story. To those who think this could not, in actual fact, have taken place- think again. It happens all the time. I have a similar story that spanned two decades, and I'm not even famous!

[Laura Hancock · Rating 3 out of 5]

Since this book is about an affair, and I have strong opinions about adultery, it was a difficult topic to swallow. On the other hand, I've always been a fan of Lillian Ross and it was interesting to learn about her life as a writer.

[Among Others · Rating 4 out of 5]

A fascinating memoir of a non-monogamous relationship, partaken by two clearly highly self-reflective individuals. Problems come through and readers are left with unanswered questions, but it's fascinating.

[Diz White · Rating 5 out of 5]

Lillian Ross's incredible journey as the an author on The New Yorker and her complicated relationship with its editor. Well written, sad, funny and a cautionary tale for women who fall in love with a married man.

[Sue Kozlowski · Rating 3 out of 5]

Non-fiction. Lillian Ross had an affair with William Shawn, Editor of the New Yorker. Even though he was married, they had a place together and also raised a child! He died in 1992. Amazing what a hidden life they led. Reminded me of Spencer Tracy and Hepburn.

[Jessica · Rating 3 out of 5]

Poignant but lost interest midway through. I didn't like part of this book but I can't figure out why...

[Mary · Rating 2 out of 5]

Book written to justify transgressions. The protagonists in this weary story are certainly fascinating people in another light. Should have kept it to herself.

[sendann · Rating 4 out of 5]

More mid century New Yorker office gossip delight.

[Jenny R · Rating 2 out of 5]

Oy. This should have been Jenny-candy: an inside look at The New Yorker during its heyday, a complicated love affair, two complex personalities. Instead, Ross writes with an air of "here's some ways in which I'm awesome, and a list of celebrities (film and writers) I know." Literally -- some pages are just lists of people. And the rest is a repetitive, surface-level explanation of the Ross/Shawn love story.

Some parts are lovely: a description of their budding romance, some anecdotes about Hemingway and John Huston. But I didn't feel as if I knew William Shawn any better (well, maybe 25 percent better). He's at best two-dimensional in this portrayal: editor and lover.

I was most frustrated by maddening editing errors: jumps around in time with no markers, people who show up with no explanation as if we know who they are, even misplaced commas and apostrophes. From someone who extols the virtue of the written word, I expected much more. 1.5 stars.