The Incense Game

Sano Ichiro #16

by Laura Joh Rowland

Winner of RT Magazine's Reviewers' Choice Award for Best Historical Mystery

In the wake of a terrifying earthquake, Sano Ichiro races to solve a crime that could bring down the shogun's regime

When a massive earthquake devastates Japan in 1703, even the shogun's carefully regulated court is left teetering on the brink of chaos. This is no time for a murder investigation except when a nobleman's daughters are found dead from incense poisoning and their father threatens to topple the regime unless Sano Ichiro tracks down the killer.

As Sano and his wife strive to solve the case in a world that is crumbling around them, Laura Joh Rowland author of one of the "five best historical mystery novels" "(The Wall Street Journal) "brings us her most powerful and evocative thriller set in Feudal Japan yet, "The Incense Game.""

Genres: Mystery, Historical Fiction, Japan, Fiction, Historical Mystery, Historical, Crime

304 pages, Hardcover

First published January 1, 2012

About the author

Granddaughter of Chinese and Korean immigrants, Laura Joh Rowland grew up in Michigan and where she graduated with a B.S. in microbiology and a Master of Public Health at the University of Michigan. She currently lives in New Orleans with her husband. She has worked as a chemist, microbiologist, sanitary inspector and quality engineer.

Reviews

[Brooke Banks · Rating 4 out of 5]

I JUST finished this and I'll be back with a full review, but I wanted to add some notes.

TW: Transphobia, Rape, Pedophlia, Suicide,

--At first I was impressed with how0 they kept using someone's preferred pronouns. Then the situation took a nasty turn. It was disturbing how the character's started describing them, how all of a sudden their birth sex was apparent and how they'd been fooled! To make matters worse, they were not transgender by choice but were the villain by choice. So again, in a book with a setting where m/m, f/f, and bisexuality is accepted as normal and unremarked upon, the T gets phobia and villainy. Sano doesn't even agree about keeping "the secret" because of respect, but because it threatens his master's regime! UGH.

--While the shogan doesn't have an active harem of boys in this installment, just pages at this time, there are references to his history and I'm sure he won't be celibate for long.

--There is a victim of rape with her brother being the perpetrator. This is referred to as "incest" as if she was a willing participant. The victim blaming is excruciating and society is her adversary to justice and peace. She has PTSD, anxiety, and is the one to commit suicide.

An aside: Apparently in this society, incest is perfectly normal as is it resulting in children.

--I'm always impressed how Rowland keeps things fresh, evolving, and progressing.
--Holy fucking shit, that ending!!

[Katherine · Rating 5 out of 5]

Beginners beware, this is not the place to start this excellent series; you'll spend too much time wondering who is who, and not enough marveling at Rowland's ability to spin a murder mystery in the middle of a tale about recovery from terrible disasters. The story opens with the murder itself, which takes place just prior to the earthquake of 1703, also vividly described. Rowland deftly juxtaposes the small tragedy against the backdrop of the larger one, as people scramble to recover from the disaster that's leveled much of the city. I think one of the strongest testaments to her storytelling power is that even sixteen volumes in, I still remember and care about each of the characters. I think she only needed a sentence to remind me of who they were and the problems they're facing. I often wish these books had a larger fandom and/or could be made into a compelling mini-series; there is so much rich plot and character development in them that they would catch on like wildfire. What an excellent read, and with a plausible but completely surprising twist about three quarters of the way through.

[D. T. · Rating 3 out of 5]

At sixteen books into this series, Rowland still manages to write an intriguing mystery and set it amidst the historical backdrop of the devastating 1703 earthquake. As always, it's a quick, light read with plenty of political machinations and personal perils that keep the pages turning.

HOWEVER…

My continuing irritation with the series is once again Hirata and the increasingly ridiculous mystical, magical martial arts. It adds so very little to the series and detracts too much from the meticulously constructed reality she's created. Worse yet, his subplot in this installment seems like such a perfunctory afterthought that you could edit him out entirely and really only have to alter one scene. It's an annoyance that makes my eyes roll and keeps me from rating it higher. Again, I ask why Rowland has taken such care to craft an immersive, realistic, and believable world in detail, plot, motives, and explanation, only to muck it up with supernatural and fantastical elements that belong in an entirely different novel. Kill off the character and/or end the subplot, please. It drags down an otherwise enjoyable mystery.

[Mieczyslaw Kasprzyk · Rating 3 out of 5]

I'm going to keep this short... What the hell has Rowland done? She's taken an interesting series of detective stories set in Seventeenth/Eighteenth Century Japan, with all its political machinations and feudal undertones... and ruined it! She has introduced an element of... FANTASY! Super-hero ninja-type samurai, evil spirits... Excuse me? I know that the Chinese Asian culture fantasises about their ability to tap into some sort of self-discipline which enables them to become amazing super-warriors but we also know that this IS a fantasy, that it belies the truth and has no place in historical fiction.
Beneath this rubbish was a very interesting story. Yes, it continues to have that slightly whining tone as Sano has to kowtow to the whims of the Shogun and get involved in the power game that seems to have permeated Japanese society at the time, but the basic storyline is interesting and, at times gripping, but I feel that this new element Rowland has introduced may well see our relationship come to an end!

[Denise · Rating 5 out of 5]

Another brilliant historical mystery by Laura Joh Rowland, this newest installment in the Sano Ichiro series is set against the backdrop of the devastating 1703 Edo region earthquake. This has been one of my favourite series for a long time, and this book was IMO one of its best. And of course I'm very glad to see Yanagisawa back in business after the events of the last book - noone does scheming and intriguing quite as delightfully as him. Can't wait to see what the next book will have in store!

[Thrillers R Us · Rating 3 out of 5]

Edo, Month 11, Genroku Year 16, aka Stardate, December 1703, Tokyo. Feudal Japan. The whole crew is back for the 16th iteration of the Sano Ichiro Saga: Sano, Yanagisawa, Dr. Ito, Reiko, Shogun Tokugawa and more. Sano (alas, the entire cast) soon finds himself on familiar ground: the unhappy Shogun, a power hungry vassal, a friend's betrayal and an ultimatum that promises death and dishonor should Sano fail...

This time, Laura Joh Rowland throws in a little extra; a disaster strikes in the form of a massive earthquake, creating food shortages, people in despair, and the threat of insurrection that could lead to a coup against the Shogun. Sounds like 2020 - The Year in Review. THE INCENSE GAME was published in 2012 and has vibes of being precocious. Surely, earthquakes have been around since cave paintings were the latest rage, though the extensive use of the word 'earthquake' feels recent and almost anachronistic for feudal Japan. Another matter as old as man is murder, almost as if it's hard wired into the DNA. Laura Joh Rowland makes good use of this, assembled the usual suspects and rolled the die to see where it heads. THE INCENSE GAME is yet another compromising situation where Sano Ichiro is threatened, abused and required to meet impossible demands by the Shogun himself.

Fans of the detective genre in general and the Sano series in specific can rejoice. THE INCENSE GAME delivers the goods that the previous fifteen entries have set up and there is comfort in the routine and expected. Mystic martial arts and artists have found a thread in this series for the last 2-3 books now and this chapter in the Saga will test your literary faith and patience. Laura Joh Rowlands's work is spot on and feudal Japan pops off the page, from Edo castle, to Samurai in full regalia, the Nihonbashi bridge and the Yoshiwara pleasure quarters. Interestingly enough, there is no mention of Namazu, a giant underground catfish enshrined at Kashima and believed to cause earthquakes, and its guardian, the god Takemikazushi. THE INCENSE GAME approximates a great line from ONCE UPON A TIME IN THE WEST (1969) and delivers the verdict with what is probably the best dialogue of the novel: "Good enough for a bastard. But some bastards get more than others, don't they?" Friends of Sano Ichiro, this investigation will not disappoint, so step right up - THE INCENSE GAME goes on, who's next to play?

[Kevin Vrieze · Rating 5 out of 5]

One of the best in the series. Very complex. All the characters played significant parts and there were very few loose ends. The mystic thread of the story fit nicely. The return of Yanagisawa had a great twist. Hard to do a story set in the devastation of a major earthquake, but Rowland did very nicely. The part children played in this one was subtle, but very interesting. The relationships of the children to their parents and to the world around them in their various positions was fascinating. Sano comes through this one superbly. As he observes, the positive results from the various chances and disasters he recounts is remarkable and born out in this book. Well worth the read, and well worth a re-read,or two.

[Yva · Rating 3 out of 5]

3.5 stars would have been a good option.

I think it is very impressive how the writer made her story so believable. You can just imagining it all happening.
I also liked Reiko's charater. To my knowledge she was very realistically portrayed. Her character is that of the not so stereotypical wife, but it wasn't over done. She still only went where a lady would go and left bigger things to her husband. A good character overall.

But yet the story didn't grab me. It didn't blow me away and even though the book wasn't very thick, it felt like a very long book. Everyone had a secret agenda and trying to give all those agenda's some attention in the story made it a bit long...

[Kris · Rating 1 out of 5]

Did not finish. Got halfway through and I still didn’t care about the characters or the politics. Perhaps if I’d read the previous books in the series, I might have cared more. But the characters seemed wooden, and the author kept making the amateur blunder of *telling* me what the characters were thinking and doing, instead of *showing* me. I expected better from an author with such a successful series.

I was massively disappointed in this book, as I have been to Japan and generally love books set there. But this was just a slog. Not even wanting to know “who done it” could keep me reading.

[GBL · Rating 5 out of 5]

Another adventure in the career of Sano Ichiro as he attempts to solve a difficult case of murder in the context of an earthquake that has destroyed the city of Edo and the surrounding area. Again Sano and his family are in danger as the political climate around the Shogun becomes volatile in the context of the natural disasters. Yanagisawa, Sano's enemy, makes a dramatic return to the political battlefield after mourning the death of his son and the book ends with the murders solved but the political battle still to be fought.

[Mililani · Rating 4 out of 5]

I've been off of the Rowland bandwagon of novels for several months mostly because I could not find the books I needed to read in the sequence at the library. My remedy to the problem was to change the library I visited and Voila! I found books. This novel has the same major characters and villains with a few more added into the mix. Although Sano -san is high ranking, he cannot get away from his investigation responsibilities. A couple of interesting twists at the end.

[Mary · Rating 4 out of 5]

Going into this book I was not aware of the others that came before. So much past history that was mentioned as a reference. I loved the murder mystery aspect of this story which had a most satisfactory conclusion. Not sure what to make of the mystical and ghost side of the story.

[Nancy Cook Lauer · Rating 3 out of 5]

An enjoyable little mystery set in feudal Japan. Well plotted, thoroughly researched with a lot of interesting detail about social mores of the time. The writing style is very simplistic, almost as if it were translated from another language, although there is no indication that is true.

[D. Wickles · Rating 4 out of 5]

In this book Sano, his wife and now their young son all work together to solve a murder in the aftermath of a devastating earthquake. This series is just as good in book 16 than any of the earlier ones. Love this series!

[Marcy · Rating 4 out of 5]

A murder mystery set in feudal Japan -- a good read and good diversion for this weekend. I enjoyed the detective work and the characters, not so much the fantasy/spirits part. I will definitely go back and read other books in this series to see what else Sano et al get up to!

[Charles Jackson · Rating 3 out of 5]

Nearing the end of the Sano series. They are all the same, which is why I keep reading them. Character descriptions and development are rudimentary but I love the journey back in time to early 18th century Japan, and Rowland's portrayal of the interior landscape of its inhabitants.

[tessie ozzy · Rating 4 out of 5]

plot twist was so unexpected

[Inna · Rating 3 out of 5]

heavy on the politics and somewhat flat in tone, but has a nice surprising twist.

[Jessica L Seay · Rating 5 out of 5]

Great read

Had me up all night at times wanting to see what happened next! I couldn't put it down! Loved it!

[Mary Ann · Rating 4 out of 5]

This story takes place after the great earthquake which struck Edo (modern Tokyo). It's another good mystery, with lots of period history. Reiko and San triumph again, with some help from mystics.

[Katheyer · Rating 5 out of 5]

TBA

[Peggy · Rating 4 out of 5]

Great story and a whodunit. Love that it ties into an actual event.

[Dan · Rating 2 out of 5]

2.5 / 5. I read this because it was recommended for a trip to Japan and some of the history for the places we were visiting.

[Blue North · Rating 4 out of 5]

The Incense Game by Laura Joh Rowland is a mystery which happens during a natural disaster in the ancient time of 1763, Year 16. The natural disaster is an earthquake and a Tsunami. This is Feudal Japan. The shogun is the ruler. Each character in the mystery adds wonderful detail to the novel. It's well into the novel before the secret of the shogun's heart are told. His secret reminded me of the lion in Wizard of Oz. The lion in the Wizard of Oz is cowardly, always afraid. He wants to be courageous like other lions. Although he wasn't the main character or my favorite character, I felt sorry for him. How ironic that a man with so much power is afraid to make a decision, afraid of his own shadow.

The mystery begins oddly enough with a game, The Incense Game. Usugumo is the lady who oversees the game. When the mystery begins, it involves two sisters who are playing the game with her. The mystery will involve the murder of all three women. The mystery is difficult to solve because so many people have a motive including the two sisters who play the game and also, Usugumo. She may be good at leading a game, but she treats people with disrespect through blackmail. The two women who come to play despise one another for an assortment of reasons. It's highly plausible that one of them could have poisoned the other one out of sheer hatred and jealousy. Usugomo only becoming a murdered victim because she happened to partake of the poisoned incense in this scenario.

However, this is only one or two scenarios for the murders. Sano and Reiko will reach many other conclusions before hitting on the real reasons for the murders. The solution to the crimes totally shocked me. I had no idea. A shocking ending makes a wonderful mystery. After reading the solution to the crimes, I just had to hold the book for a while sitting in awe of how one person's life became totally changed because of the choices made by people around him. These bad choices set this person off on a murderous trail which didn't seem to ever come to an end. However, this is no excuse for the murders.

I did feel that Laura Joh Rowland wanted a strong woman to play the part of a main character. Reiko is very strong minded. However, toward the end of the novel she became stronger and stronger, unbelievably strong for a woman in her condition. If the author didn't have the intention to make Reiko a superwoman with an "aura," then, she failed. Reiko, without aura, became a comical sideshow.

If Reiko did have aura, a mind with super powers, then, the character worked well and accomplished the display of a super mind with super strength. So, one answer about Reiko makes the difference whether I can accept her as a person who might have really lived as a wife and mother in Japan.

Who is my favorite character? I'm not sure. The side characters could become characters in a novel where they act as main characters. Obviously, the author does a super job when developing characters. The earth quake and Tsunami could have been developed more, I thought. There were a few shattered buildings, but not enough development of either disaster to make me say, "I hope to never live through an earthquake or Tsunami." The descriptions of the disasters were scattered at best. The bomb that is thrown and hits Sano and Reiko's children was more developed than the natural disasters. Also, the winter, the snow, in Japan is well developed. I really came away from reading the novel knowing Japan can become very cold. Again, not the natural disasters are slipped pass as incidentals.

Still, I will glad read another novel by Laura Joh Rowland. She does a fantastic job of keeping the killer concealed and giving the murderer a motive or motives. I'm still in shock. I am glad to see she has a long list of novels written. I have heard there is one newer than The Incense Game. There is a map at the beginning of the novel which I enjoyed. I would have also liked a listing of pronunciations of the Japanese names. I was curious how to really pronounce the names. In the end, the novel by Laura Joh Rowland is fine Historical fiction. holymtn.com/gods/FragranceJapaneseLife In the novel, the author writes in detail about The Incense Game. laurajohrowlandsano

[Deanna Drai Turner · Rating 3 out of 5]

About 5 chapters in, I was fidgeting in my chair and sweat was beading on my upper lip. I thought, oh dear, this is a book about Feudal Japan. I don't really enjoy books on Feudal Japan. Then I looked at the cover again and saw the tagline below the title "A novel of feudal Japan." Ooops. I had been so drawn in by the lovely woman on the cover and the title "The Incense Game" that I failed to really pay attention. I wanted, after all, to know what the heck the incense game was. As it turns out, we hear very very little about the game itself. Still not sure, even after finishing this book that I have any idea what that is...hmmm. I slogged through this book, slow as a sloth. I really struggled with the characters. We had Yanagisawa and Yoshisato and Yoritomo and Yokichicka...that just in ONE family. Phew. I suspect that in Japanese these are all very distinct like John, Joe and James...but boyo, they sounded all about the same to me. It was tough. I thought seriously about quitting and then somewhere discovered that i had actually stumbled into a rather good story of intrigue. It was 1703 after a terrible earthquake and tsunami devastated Edo, which we now know as Tokyo. Think big bad Godzilla destroys all cites, and streets kind of destruction. Inside the root of this story we experience a childish and ridiculously selfish despot the Shogun, and the resulting courage or deviousness of those in his service. Three women are mysteriously killed by the freakin' incense game, and it is made to look like it occurred as part of the earthquake. Threats everywhere. Espionage. Covert investigations. Threats of mutiny. Treason. Starving and suffering people everywhere. The dead and sewage and falled down buildings everywhere. We dont know who is lying, who is cheating, who to trust, sympathize with or despise. Lots of depth of relationships, and children, secret magical rituals in the woods, ancient spirits, tattoos, card-sharking, looting, tent jails, horses, coolio mutant ninja warrior outfits, padded cotton coats that make everyone look fat fat fat...And the next thing i knew i could not put it down and could not wait to see how it ended. I was pleased with the cleverness of the murder mystery completion, but groaned when I came to the last 2 paragraphs and realized there would be a sequel. ああくそ...方法はありません (translate: oh shit, nooooo way.)

[Pmalcpoet Pat Malcolm · Rating 5 out of 5]

The Incense Game takes place in feudal Japan, and is the sixteenth in a series featuring able detective Sano Ichiro. We have witnessed the changing events and allegiances which have allowed Sano to rise to his current position as Honorable Chamberlain, second in command only to the shogun himself, dictator and ruler of all Japan. This story takes place in 1703, in the aftermath of an earthquake which has devastated Edo, the capital, and the surrounding countryside. Much of the city has been flattened by the earthquake and by the fires which have ensued. The palace and its fortifications have not escaped, and many of its troops and other officials have been killed. Every available man is set to work rebuilding the city, and functions of the state messenger service and others have been suspended. Winter is coming on. During the search for survivors three women are found in the wreckage, seemingly alive, but as a searcher lowers himself into their sanctuary he is overcome. It soon becomes apparent that the women are dead, poisoned, and two of them are the daughters of a powerful feudal lord, or daimyo. Sano must turn his attention to solving the mystery of the women's deaths or risk civil war. As the tale unfolds we find there are more risks, and plots in every direction, threatening the shogun and his government, and every member of Sano's family and inner circle as well. The hallmark of a thriller is uncertainty, and it can be hard to sustain a series under these conditions, especially one like the Sano Ichiro series, in which the protagonist has full loving family relationships and a loyal, lifetime circle bound by feudal law. But Laura Joh Rowland is a master storyteller, and juggles the complicated web of loyalties and relationships, the ancient Samurai code, and feudal Japanese history and culture. She deftly achieves the necessary uncertainty, the feeling of the ground never being quite solid beneath one's feet, with or without an earthquake. Dishonesty, betrayals, surprising turns at court, and a return from obscurity are accompanied by what promises to be a long-term new plot direction into the realm of the supernatural. These combine to breathe new life into the ongoing saga, and all is not resolved by the end of the book. Thriller, indeed.

[Mekdelawit Yitayih · Rating 4 out of 5]

Historical Fiction/Mystery & Detective
An earthquake hits Edo(present day Tokyo) in Dec. 31, 1703. This unexpected earthquake ruined the castle and the homes of the people. Many people lost their families and friends which left them devastated. Sano Ichiro, the protagonist of this book, escaped the earthquake with his wife and two kids before the house collapsed on them. Sano is an honorable and brave samurai who loves his wife and kids and deeply cares about his country. He was forced to investigate a murder case instead of helping the people who lost their houses and families. During that time, he faces many difficulties searching for the murderer. However, Reiko, Sano's wife, kept him strong and helped him with the investigation. Reiko loves her husband and kids. She is a very kind and thoughtful person who helps everyone, especially the poor. She tries to understand peoples' problems and sorrows. The antagonist is the Shogun who is a selfish ruler of Edo and has no care for his people. He is like a spoiled child because he wants everything. His greed has no limits. He doesn't even try to help his people during the earthquake. He cares about his thinking instead of considering other peoples' thoughts.
The main idea/theme of this book is the search for the truth. Sano tried to find the truth of a murder which led him to a pile of suspects. However, he showed perseverance and kept on going. Love and kindness can be another theme. During hard times, Reiko supported her husband all the way through. This book shows the love for one's country. It also shows selfishness, greed, ignorance, and the fight for power instead of helping people and showing love to the country. People who like to read historical books & mysteries might enjoy this book. I enjoyed the book because it was suspenseful and had some twists and turns to find the culprit of a murder. There was some fantasy in it that made it more interesting. Generally, "The Incense Game" is a fascinating mystery book and I would truly recommend it.

[Amy Lignor · Rating 3 out of 5]

Readers may be surprised to learn that this interesting title is actually book #16 in this author’s series featuring Sano Ichiro, who is now the Honorable Chamberlain, not to mention the Shogun’s second in command. (Let’s face it, when you’ve written sixteen novels about a character, you know that it’s one of the ‘best-of-the-best’ in literature).

The year is 1703 in Edo (Tokyo), Japan. Sano is about to look for the truth behind a suspicious suicide that was made to look like an ‘Incense Game,’ (an innocent game that was once played by many).

The tale begins when a very powerful earthquake flattens the city and provinces. The people threaten to overthrow the Shogun’s administration when he refuses to do anything about the travesty, choosing instead to send Sano to oversee the relief and rebuilding of the city.

While doing his job, Sano comes across the well-preserved bodies of three women that would have been seen as a casualty of the quake, but with a further look turns out to be ‘murder by incense poisoning.’ Sano is asked by a powerful landowner—the grief-stricken father of two of the women—to find out the real reason why his daughters were murdered.

As Sano hunts for leads and suspects, including some powerful members of the government, he travels the length of the city observing the aftermath of the horrible force of nature. With the help of his family, he soon stumbles upon a so-called ‘secret’ society; its members are bound together with the sole purpose of weakening the government of the Shogun. Add to all this the fact that there is someone (the previous Chamberlain) who wants Sano’s job and will stop at nothing to get it back, and you have a novel filled with intrigue.

Sano is a longtime hero who’s very likable and highly interesting. The mystery is strong, and offers an added bonus of giving several ‘hints’ as to how the next installment will be written.

Until Next Time, Everybody,
Amy

[Beverly · Rating 4 out of 5]

• I find that I need to “like” the characters in a mystery series and Sana Ichiro and his wife Lady Reiko are very engaging and intriguing characters, so the books are more enjoyable to me.
• This is more than a mystery but a very good period literature – the combination of the mystery with real events – in this case the devastating earthquake of 1703 – with the description of the Japanese feudal society is interesting and informative.
• Enjoyed how I learned about the culture/history without it seeming like a history lesson – learning about the incense game was interesting and that classes were given to help participates hone their skills.
• The mystery is well done with overt clues, hidden evidence, foreshadowing, and red herrings. While the main mystery storyline is successfully resolved there are several other continuing storylines that had some interesting twist and turns and sets the reader up for the next installment.
• Once again Sano had to struggle with his commitment to the code of Bushido (samurai) and his personal integrity code and how his actions play out against a very rigid society with harsh consequences for those who break the rules.
• The scandals and the backstabbing that goes in the books is another technique that hooks the readers.
• I have only read two books in the series but will look to this series when looking for an enjoyable historical mystery.
• The author provides enough background information that each of the stories can stand on their own.
• I recommend to those who are interested in reading a history mystery with intriguing characters.

[Iejones · Rating 5 out of 5]

AMAZING!! The graceful and passionate story telling of Rowland has kept me coming back lo her 15+ Sano Ichiro stories. The Incense Game - took me a long time- but was worthy it!! The earthquake in Edo - would have been an historical fact - however, after experiencing an earthquake on the east coast I have a new appreciation for technology and the modern age. The carnage that people experienced and the fallout and clean-up must have been tremendously involved and timely. Sano and his ilk - the integrity-based and justice loving encountered the baselessness of hard times and the opportunity for "get what you can" in the midst of chaos.

Rowland displays the pathos and wreckage amongst the larger palace intrigue and death of an incense master along with two participants. Things are not what they appear - and Sano learns the ugly truth which places him in a dire position. Hirata is conflicted. Reiko holds a secret and Mashiro is becoming a young man and diplomat. The former chamberlain Yanisgawa continues to pose s threat - of what magnitude - one does not known. WOW!! This book explores the depth of character and the humanness of living with principle in dicey times. Historical, poetic, telling and revealing, Rowland has reached a new level in story telling - that convicts and impels the reader to do and become more than simply a thinking being - but to become a feeling and grounded one also - regardless of the consequences.