What do you think?
Rate this book
我的西域，你的東土【中國最敢言的作家王力雄探索新疆議題經典著作新版，新增〈十六年後續篇〉】
Ratings & Reviews
Friends & Following
Create a free account to discover what your friends think of this book!
Community Reviews
Displaying 1 - 15 of 15 reviews
February 25, 2023
书中最吸引人的部分当属穆合塔尔的观点，其间许多观点都颇具先见之明，指明了当今西域问题的核心，如大多伊斯兰国家在维族问题上都不会站在维族一边，因为他们的独裁政权的本质。书中探讨的中间路线如今已然不可实现，维族受到的压制愈加深重，如何解决东土之事的方案仍需深思。（尽管王力雄多次表达对维族遭遇的同情，但其观点中仍然存在很多汉族对于少数民族固有的观点）
April 8, 2024
作者的几次旅行记录很值得一看；与穆赫塔尔的对谈非常有意思，但总隐约觉得作者还是没有完全摆脱大汉族主义、大男子主义颐使气指（误）的口气。“跟中共谈，什么道路都没有希望”。对谈中多次提到流血与对未来可能会出现的如波黑战争般残酷景象的担忧，但估计谁也没想到2016年后形势会急转直下到如此。最后，希望穆赫塔尔还活着，但不知如今他对如今的形势有什么样的看法。
Read
October 14, 2024十年前读《天葬》，最近看user_fjifods998877的update终于下决心读这本。从亲身经历到对谈，从实际到理论，bottom up，还是王力雄的风格。读的过程中几度落泪。想到近几年的诸多新闻与在波士顿时听到对camp的证词，再次深刻体会到总加速师的厉害。看到最后对不管是穆赫塔尔还是王对未来自己国家的想象，都只感觉一种悲凉。另外在此期间参加了几个藏艺术展，体会到海外东土人和海外藏人在对西人的影响上的差距，艺术作为一种meta政治媒体为海外藏人一举提高其地位。查了一下，没想到王力雄至今仍居上海，可能是身份限制。
May 21, 2012
Wang Lixiong provides a realistic and unbiased view of current socio-economic and inter-ethnic problems in Xinjiang. He describes a dangerous situation of ethnic groups leading lives increasingly separated from each other and with ever less mutual understanding, trust and sympathy for each other and actually an increasing conflict potential. Chinese authorities have banned the book but I hope that politicians will still read it.
The Xinjiang problem Wang sees basically refers to a potential conflict between the Han Chinese or the Chinese state on the one hand and the local people, especially the Uyghurs on the other hand. There is a basic distrust of the other on both sides and even hatred of the Han on the Uyghur side. The Han Chinese are described to behave and be seen by local people as colonizers. They are dominant in economic activities and administration. The Han are the main beneficiaries of the policies to open up and develop the west of China. This policy is actually meant to appease the local minorities by giving them higher living standards. However, the central government seems to fail to understand that the basic problem is not an economic one, but a political one. The system, policies and demographic trends (Han immigration) seem to put the local people in an increasingly disadvantaged position. With adequate channels and rights to address these problems, distrust and hatred gradually builds up in the minority communities.. and might sooner or later explode.
Wang was arrested while researching for this book. He describes the whole experience in the book. The arrest was probably triggered by his obtaining a 'secret' document for his research, but the actual reason was never revealed to him. Wang became desperate when he found out that the interrogators were trying to make him blame or ‘sell’ other people. Unable to deal with the pressure and the prospect of bringing others in trouble, he decided to commit suicide. His attempt failed and after leaving hospital, he was brought to a state prison, where he met Mokhtar, an Uyghur intellectual. Ironically, although he was apparently imprisoned for his research of the XJ problem, his time in the prison enabled him to get a much better understanding of this problem.
The chapter "Conversations with Mokhtar" Wang gives the reader an Uyghur perspective of the XJ problem. The chapter (similar to the first chapter but in a more detailed and more worrying way) describes the basic distrust and hatred between the local people and the Han Chinese. Mokhtar makes a case for an independent East Turkestan and argues that the majority of Uyghurs want independence – either for political/historic or for religious reasons. He is generally optimistic that independence is achievable, although it may come at a considerable cost of human life. He does not totally reject a middle way, but wants a very high level of autonomy (even including passport controls) that would not be acceptable for the Beijing government. He says that Uyghurs are waiting for an opportunity, such as a tumultous democratisation process, to demand independence. He thinks that China would not be able to prevent a secession of East Turkestan in this situation, Wang disagrees with this, arguing that XJ’s Han Chinese would be able and willing to fend off any such attempt even without help from inner China, given their economic power and paramilitary organisations.
The last chapter consists of letter to Mokhtar, explaining Wang’s position on the Xinjiang problem. Interestingly, he does not think that an independent East Turkestan would be beneficial even to the Uyghurs. He argues that given the ethnic fragmentation of Xinjiang, it would be difficult to govern as an independent state, making it unlikely that the Uyghurs would be in a position dominant enough to rule to country without being challenged by the Han Chinese in East Turkestan or the various other minorities. Kazakhs or Mongol might in turn demand independence from East Turkestan. The Han Chinese might still dominate the cities and the economy. He is also concerned that the election of local rulers in a democratic system as Mokhtar favours it would result in polarisation between different ethnic groups. As a result of these concerns, Wang seems to favour a solution within China.
The Xinjiang problem Wang sees basically refers to a potential conflict between the Han Chinese or the Chinese state on the one hand and the local people, especially the Uyghurs on the other hand. There is a basic distrust of the other on both sides and even hatred of the Han on the Uyghur side. The Han Chinese are described to behave and be seen by local people as colonizers. They are dominant in economic activities and administration. The Han are the main beneficiaries of the policies to open up and develop the west of China. This policy is actually meant to appease the local minorities by giving them higher living standards. However, the central government seems to fail to understand that the basic problem is not an economic one, but a political one. The system, policies and demographic trends (Han immigration) seem to put the local people in an increasingly disadvantaged position. With adequate channels and rights to address these problems, distrust and hatred gradually builds up in the minority communities.. and might sooner or later explode.
Wang was arrested while researching for this book. He describes the whole experience in the book. The arrest was probably triggered by his obtaining a 'secret' document for his research, but the actual reason was never revealed to him. Wang became desperate when he found out that the interrogators were trying to make him blame or ‘sell’ other people. Unable to deal with the pressure and the prospect of bringing others in trouble, he decided to commit suicide. His attempt failed and after leaving hospital, he was brought to a state prison, where he met Mokhtar, an Uyghur intellectual. Ironically, although he was apparently imprisoned for his research of the XJ problem, his time in the prison enabled him to get a much better understanding of this problem.
The chapter "Conversations with Mokhtar" Wang gives the reader an Uyghur perspective of the XJ problem. The chapter (similar to the first chapter but in a more detailed and more worrying way) describes the basic distrust and hatred between the local people and the Han Chinese. Mokhtar makes a case for an independent East Turkestan and argues that the majority of Uyghurs want independence – either for political/historic or for religious reasons. He is generally optimistic that independence is achievable, although it may come at a considerable cost of human life. He does not totally reject a middle way, but wants a very high level of autonomy (even including passport controls) that would not be acceptable for the Beijing government. He says that Uyghurs are waiting for an opportunity, such as a tumultous democratisation process, to demand independence. He thinks that China would not be able to prevent a secession of East Turkestan in this situation, Wang disagrees with this, arguing that XJ’s Han Chinese would be able and willing to fend off any such attempt even without help from inner China, given their economic power and paramilitary organisations.
The last chapter consists of letter to Mokhtar, explaining Wang’s position on the Xinjiang problem. Interestingly, he does not think that an independent East Turkestan would be beneficial even to the Uyghurs. He argues that given the ethnic fragmentation of Xinjiang, it would be difficult to govern as an independent state, making it unlikely that the Uyghurs would be in a position dominant enough to rule to country without being challenged by the Han Chinese in East Turkestan or the various other minorities. Kazakhs or Mongol might in turn demand independence from East Turkestan. The Han Chinese might still dominate the cities and the economy. He is also concerned that the election of local rulers in a democratic system as Mokhtar favours it would result in polarisation between different ethnic groups. As a result of these concerns, Wang seems to favour a solution within China.
January 2, 2022
《我的西域，你的東土》可說是王力雄研究新疆問題的代表作。其實這本書已經出版了一段時間，只是之前一直沒有機會入手。這次趁著今年暑假回臺灣的機會，在政大巨流書城連同《天葬》一併購入。 2002年時去了一趟新疆，當時曾經對疆獨這個課題感到興趣。不過後來考慮到田調的困難以及潛在的風險，所以後來放棄了這個念頭。不過對於維吾爾族的興趣並沒有因此而減退。
王力雄這本書受到許多廣大讀者的推崇。目前的中文相關研究中，這本書的確是不可多得的著作。作者在獄中結識了維族朋友穆合塔爾。使得他有機會接觸到其他的維族朋友。這讓我聯想到Clifford Geertz在爪哇島上研究鬥雞時，在警察取締時與當地人一同逃跑後，他才被當地人所接受的經歷。這種共同受難的經歷，似乎普遍存在於外來者如何進入地方脈絡的過程中。這大概跟自己當兵時和同袍的革命情感類似吧。
另外，他認為民族問題並不是透過民主就可以解決的。特別是在今日的中國與新疆，維漢對立事實上是中共宣傳的自我應驗預言（self-fulfilling prophecy）。即使未來中國能夠民主化，現況可能不會更好，反而還會惡化。因為上臺的執政黨為了利用民族主義號召群眾支持，恐怕沒有太多空間允許新疆的維吾爾族高度自治甚至獨立。另外在與Gardner Bovington教授的討論中，我和他有同樣的憂慮，即中國的崛起以及其帶給中國政府與漢族高漲的自信心，恐怕不利於對現有路線的檢討與反思。
比較可惜的是，由於王力雄不懂維語，使得他在走訪新疆的過程中，無法了解維族朋友之間的維語對話。因而他對維族的了解，絕大部分是來自於他與少數擅長中文的維族朋友之間的中文對話。這對於他的取材來源不能不說是一個很大的限制。這也再次提醒自己研究語言的重要性。
另外，Gardner Bovington教授的博士論文《維吾爾人：故土上的陌生人》（The Uyghurs: Strangers in Their Own Land）即將於今年8月17日出版。目前已在Amazon網站預購，等到入手拜讀之後，也許再另外寫一篇感想吧。
Aug 10, 2010
王力雄這本書受到許多廣大讀者的推崇。目前的中文相關研究中，這本書的確是不可多得的著作。作者在獄中結識了維族朋友穆合塔爾。使得他有機會接觸到其他的維族朋友。這讓我聯想到Clifford Geertz在爪哇島上研究鬥雞時，在警察取締時與當地人一同逃跑後，他才被當地人所接受的經歷。這種共同受難的經歷，似乎普遍存在於外來者如何進入地方脈絡的過程中。這大概跟自己當兵時和同袍的革命情感類似吧。
另外，他認為民族問題並不是透過民主就可以解決的。特別是在今日的中國與新疆，維漢對立事實上是中共宣傳的自我應驗預言（self-fulfilling prophecy）。即使未來中國能夠民主化，現況可能不會更好，反而還會惡化。因為上臺的執政黨為了利用民族主義號召群眾支持，恐怕沒有太多空間允許新疆的維吾爾族高度自治甚至獨立。另外在與Gardner Bovington教授的討論中，我和他有同樣的憂慮，即中國的崛起以及其帶給中國政府與漢族高漲的自信心，恐怕不利於對現有路線的檢討與反思。
比較可惜的是，由於王力雄不懂維語，使得他在走訪新疆的過程中，無法了解維族朋友之間的維語對話。因而他對維族的了解，絕大部分是來自於他與少數擅長中文的維族朋友之間的中文對話。這對於他的取材來源不能不說是一個很大的限制。這也再次提醒自己研究語言的重要性。
另外，Gardner Bovington教授的博士論文《維吾爾人：故土上的陌生人》（The Uyghurs: Strangers in Their Own Land）即將於今年8月17日出版。目前已在Amazon網站預購，等到入手拜讀之後，也許再另外寫一篇感想吧。
Aug 10, 2010
June 26, 2021
The corruption of the authoritarian regime is so serious. If everyone pay one extra penny, the corresponding officials can embezzle tens of millions.
November 20, 2023
穆合塔尔有近乎天真的乐观，看得令人心碎。
June 23, 2020
The book mainly consists of the writer’s personal experience traveling in the region. Lot of anecdotal accounts. The overall narrative of the boon didn’t take the systematic and academic approach, as the writer had lost his access to any files after his untimely arrest. It’s a good attempt by a Han writer to explore life and problem in the region. Unfortunately and understandably he could only get the voice from the Uighur side through the man he befriended in the jail. The book was written around the time of September 11th terrorist attack, when the world had started to adopt a more skeptical view on Islam and terrorism. Much has changed, and much hasn’t been changed since the release of the book, I wish there’s an updated version of this book to include more recent events.
September 2, 2018
travel journal like peter hessler's observation
.not as systematic as author's masterpiece about tibet
像寻路中国一样的随笔，不如作者的天葬系统研究
.not as systematic as author's masterpiece about tibet
像寻路中国一样的随笔，不如作者的天葬系统研究
August 3, 2022
读到了57%
August 19, 2022
没有去过新疆，感谢作者和作者那位无所不谈的维族朋友，提供了一个汉族站在维族视角所撰写的新疆介绍。
十多年过去了，书中提到的问题不仅还在，情况甚至急转而下。不愿看到维族继续被压迫，不愿看到流血，也看不到第三条路的可能，绝望。
十多年过去了，书中提到的问题不仅还在，情况甚至急转而下。不愿看到维族继续被压迫，不愿看到流血，也看不到第三条路的可能，绝望。
November 27, 2023
最讓我瞠目結舌的是，穆合塔爾的許多觀點，和1944年阿巴索夫的綱領幾乎如出一轍。而阿巴索夫的綱領並沒有紙質材料傳下來。
November 2, 2024
整体写的比较零散
June 24, 2025
前半部分是旅行见闻和狱中生活的叙述，后半部分是和维族青年的对谈，都是 2000 年左右的吧，不知道现在是怎样一幅光景。对谈中能感觉出穆和塔尔的知识还是比较广的，本族的历史，世界政治等，那个时候还是有机会能接触到相关的书或者其他的渠道，不知道现在还能不能。
March 4, 2014
having read what happened in Kunming, I read and book. Meant to mark it as read on douban-- the Chinese version of goodreads, but realized that this penetrating book about ethnicity, state, and boundary and the rarely heard voice of the constructed 'Other', which was long banned in Mainland China, is not in record. What a shame. Deeply touched by the author's courage and integrity.
Displaying 1 - 15 of 15 reviews