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The Great Good Place: Cafes, Coffee Shops, Community Centers, Beauty Parlors, General Stores, Bars, Hangouts and How They Get You Through the Day
Describes informal meeting places around the world, looks at how each reflects its culture, and argues that suburbs are leading to their decline
338 pages, Hardcover
First published July 1, 1989
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9071 people want to read
About the author
Ray Oldenburg
4 books27 followersRay Oldenburg was an American urban sociologist who is known for writing about the importance of informal public gathering places for a functioning civil society, democracy, and civic engagement. He coined the term "third place" and is the author of The Great Good Place (which was a New York Times Book Review Editor's Choice for 1989) and the 2001 Celebrating The Third Place.
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March 5, 2012
Parts were very thought provoking and informative, but it was too focused and biased toward the third places of men. Even when women and children were present in a third place, they were discussed in terms of how the affected the activity and community of men. Much more of the book should have addressed the third places of women in history and recommendations for how to create new third places for everyone. Third places of the past will not meet the needs and physical environment of today and the future.
With the shear size of American metropolitan areas and the need for cars, how can we create third places in our new reality instead of waxing on about what has been lost? The book was also written before social media existed and the rise of Starbucks. How has social media affected the need for and existence of a third place? How have Starbucks and other coffee houses provided or stifled third places?
"What got us here won't get us there." - Leslie Wexner
With the shear size of American metropolitan areas and the need for cars, how can we create third places in our new reality instead of waxing on about what has been lost? The book was also written before social media existed and the rise of Starbucks. How has social media affected the need for and existence of a third place? How have Starbucks and other coffee houses provided or stifled third places?
"What got us here won't get us there." - Leslie Wexner
January 25, 2013
If one spends most of one’s time at home (even if asleep a good deal of that time) and the second biggest block of time at work, that means home is your first place and work is your second place. What then, is your third place? The third place is the social venue where one has informal interaction with a group of regulars and potential newcomers such that one experiences novelty, perspective, spiritual uplift, and friends by the set (as opposed to befriending individuals). It is an enriching crossroads of culture but one that seems to be vanishing (pp. 43-44). Hence, sociologist Ray Oldenburg offered the landmark study on the “third place,” The Great Good Place in that last few years of the 20th century. If anything, his survey is more needed today than when it was initially published.
One reason we need third places is because our first and second places both have constant populations such that they lose diversity and “…people come to expect too much from too few people in a duality of settings in which surprise, adventure, risk, and excitement are alien commodities.” (p. 45) Such should not be the case in a third place that harbors a diverse population where people are accepted and liked by those from many different walks of life. “For all the persiflage, silliness, unresolved arguments, joking, and banter of third places, an outlook on life is asserted there and, because it evolves from a disinterest impossible in home and work settings, it is a particularly valuable one.” (p. 51)
Oldenburg goes on to explain third places by the German word, Gemutlich (the “u” actually has an umlaut), referring to the inclusive nature of the group (p. 56). He calls “associations” and interest groups the “instant community” idea for the automobile culture, but points out that there is no base and no sense of place in those groups (p. 61). Third places, then, provide space for affiliation and friendship by the aforementioned “set.” (p. 63) This “set” is large enough to provide the bonus of a sense of belonging without the requirement of individual emotional output (p. 64).
Indeed, Oldenburg counts the diminishment of public places capable of providing “third places” as particularly ironic in the United States of America where the taverns provided a democratic forum which functioned as a catalyst for the American Revolution, taverns where ‘there existed that full and free interplay of spontaneous and responsible group association which appears to be a necessary condition of a healthy social order.” (p. 67, quoting Carl and Jesse Bridenbaugh) As a result of this diminishment of public space, we are better informed of global than local affairs. Hence, the j’accuse that we ‘live in the hole of an informational doughnut.’ (p. 70) I also liked the little tidbit where the book reminds us that the Greek word from which we get idiot applies to those who only understood their private worlds and didn’t understand the way they connected to society (p. 71).
I didn’t appreciate his indictment of the Protestant (and Puritan) church as seeking “to ensure the life of the church over the life of the community.” (p. 74) I didn’t appreciate it because an inclusive, growing, and active church is precisely the kind of “third place” for which Oldenburg advocates. To be sure, my experiences in ministering to English Ministries of “immigrant” churches may color my perspective but I know that these types of churches have informal, playful, insightful, and encouraging conversations, relationships, and activities (social and recreational, as well as spiritual) and that many are open to Caucasians and those of ethnic minorities as well. It is ironic that Oldenburg counts out the local church and I personally suggest that it is probably because the churches with which he is familiar are primarily Sunday AM only congregations with little or no interaction through the week. But he’s probably right that much of the church’s earlier ranting about “keeping the Sabbath” by limiting amusements and public gatherings was largely a matter of taking care of the pastor’s livelihood (p. 100).
This reflects a historical tension between church and recreation. Oldenburg quotes that iconic social worker in Chicago, Jane Addams, as stating, “Since the soldiers of Cromwell shut up the people’s playhouses and destroyed their pleasure fields, the Anglo-Saxon city has turned over the provision for public recreation to the most evil-minded and most unscrupulous members of the community.” (p. 220) Citing U.S. cities with limited municipal swimming facilities because most of the planners and councilpersons have private pools, Oldenburg questions our current value system for public places of any kind, much less the conversational third places for which he advocates.
On the other hand, he seems dead on when he states that the mass media (and presumably, in the last decade, the narrow-cast pages of the web) provide so much entertainment and information that they encourage people to stay at home. Since “time spent in isolation is time lost to affiliation” this means a drop in social capital (p. 77). He also compares the authorities at the workplace (second place) unfavorably with the authorities at the “third place” by citing an old Latin proverb, Asperius nihil est humili cum surgit in altum (“Nothing is cruder (lit. rougher) than a humble [person] lifted to a height.”), and suggesting that the gatekeepers of the “third place” earn their place by common accord and approbation (p. 78).
Another insightful case is made when Oldenburg observes that U.S. citizens have become satisfied with an attitude that public spaces aren’t owned by anyone as opposed to being the communal property of everyone. As a result, we do a poor job of taking care of our public spaces, expecting governmental employees or contractors to pick up our messes (p. 83).
The amazing thing about “third places” all over the world is how many of them are based on serving alcohol: German beer gardens that spawned interest groups which formed drama clubs, debating societies, singing groups, volunteer fire departments, etc. (pp. 103-4); English pubs where “three-fourths of the drinking done in England still takes place in public settings…” (p. 123); French bistros, also known as the “clubs of the poor” (p. 146), providing something of another office for writers and planners; and American taverns and saloons on the frontier that provided the “melting pots for an ethnically diverse population.” (p. 166) It must have something to do with the talking-drinking synergism (p. 167). A survey conducted in 1974 indicated that tavern regulars drink far less than one would expect—45% only consuming one drink during a visit but staying a lengthy period to talk (p. 168). As the book quotes Kenneth Davids, “Every social lubricant has its home away from home, its church, as it were…” (p. 183)
There was also some interesting history. I always wondered about the early closing hours in England. I didn’t realize that the culture changed at the beginning of World War I in order to increase worker productivity (p. 137). It’s actually ironic that countries like those in Europe (Western Europe, at least) where there is lots of public consumption of alcohol, there is a negative correlation between drunkenness and the number of pubs in various regions of England (p. 159).
Of course, The Great Good Place would also suggest the classic coffeehouses of the 17th-19th centuries in both England and Austria. Not only did the coffeehouses spawn insurance agencies and stock exchanges in the former, but it is also credited with being a source of news and “education.” As Oldenburg quotes a late 17th century poet:
“So great a Universitie
I think there ne’er was any
In which you may a scholar be
For spending of a Penny.” (p. 185)
Of course, the English coffeehouse of that era wasn’t universally approved because they were the exclusive domain of males. As a result,
I was amused to read about The Women’s Petition Against Coffee as being responsible for the emasculation of the English male (p. 187). Some have speculated that this hostility toward the coffeehouse culture may have inspired the adoption of “tea” as the more important ritual beverage in the English lifestyle than coffee (p. 188).
In the German-Austrian tradition, those who regularly frequent one of the classic Viennese-style coffeehouses is known as a Stammgast (lit. “root” or “trunk” customer) and their regular table (as well as those who sit at it) are known as the Stammtisch (“root” table), a close-knit group with an unstated but obvious proviso that visitors need not apply (p. 195). Rather, one must be invited to that table. As an aside, this does happen in U.S. establishments. For years, the business of Chicago (both licit and illicit) was handled at a particular table in a particular restaurant near the center of power where representatives of the “Outfit” (aka “mafia”) met with representatives of the politicians. In addition, I remember visiting a small restaurant in a Southwestern town of less than 700 people where there was a Stammtisch that met regularly each morning and to which table one must be “invited” to sit.
In the last third of the book, Oldenburg presents his view of the progressively hostile environment toward “third places” in the United States. He notes that “third places” are generally “older” structures where the regulars can insinuate themselves and loiter, lounge, or hang out (depending on how you view such behavior), but all urban planning and zoning restrictions tend to discourage the social use of establishments from having an informal public life (pp. 204, 218). So “places” have been replaced by “newer” structures which the author calls “nonplaces” because of their sterility and lack of opportunity for leisurely interaction (p. 205). This sterilization is blamed on two factors: failure to consult those who might use the facilities and imitation of the same basic designs (p. 208). For example, note his cautionary word on venues designed specifically for children: “Whenever anyone takes the trouble to monitor the use that is made (or not made) of places created especially for children, the results usually indicate that the basic idea may be wrong.” (p. 280) Venues designed just for children tend to sit vacant and unused.
This is why citizens of the U.S. are estimated to spend 90% of their leisure time in their homes (my emphasis, but quoted from p. 214), a difficult way to experience cross-pollenization of ideas, indeed. And, while single-use facilities may be efficient for straightforward production uses, it doesn’t really work well for effective socialization (p. 215).
Remember, of course, that Oldenburg is a sociologist. As a result, at the very time he is lauding the value of same-sex “third places” in terms of solidifying gender roles and assisting acculturation, he drops a tidbit about romance and attraction that I’ve shared with others but not worded as well. “…sexual contact represents a spark of intensely erotic interest that bridges a gap between partners. The gap results from conflicts, tensions, antagonisms, or barriers that tend to keep potential partners apart. The principle is a simple one: no gaps, no sparks.” (p. 250) Another intriguing sociological canapé was his observation that marriage and family textbooks now refer to childfree couples rather than childless couples, making a virtue out of what was once seen as unfulfilled (p. 266).
In summary, the thesis can be advanced, “Eventually Americans will learn that the fast and hectic pace of urban life is not due to modernity but to bad urban planning.” (p. 287) As an individual, I couldn’t agree more. I do hope, however, that virtual communities (I place a higher value on them than Oldenburg, even though they were quite nascent when this book was originally published.) will actually stimulate the re-thinking of “actual” communities. We need “third places” to revitalize our sense of communities, togetherness, commitment, and creativity.
One reason we need third places is because our first and second places both have constant populations such that they lose diversity and “…people come to expect too much from too few people in a duality of settings in which surprise, adventure, risk, and excitement are alien commodities.” (p. 45) Such should not be the case in a third place that harbors a diverse population where people are accepted and liked by those from many different walks of life. “For all the persiflage, silliness, unresolved arguments, joking, and banter of third places, an outlook on life is asserted there and, because it evolves from a disinterest impossible in home and work settings, it is a particularly valuable one.” (p. 51)
Oldenburg goes on to explain third places by the German word, Gemutlich (the “u” actually has an umlaut), referring to the inclusive nature of the group (p. 56). He calls “associations” and interest groups the “instant community” idea for the automobile culture, but points out that there is no base and no sense of place in those groups (p. 61). Third places, then, provide space for affiliation and friendship by the aforementioned “set.” (p. 63) This “set” is large enough to provide the bonus of a sense of belonging without the requirement of individual emotional output (p. 64).
Indeed, Oldenburg counts the diminishment of public places capable of providing “third places” as particularly ironic in the United States of America where the taverns provided a democratic forum which functioned as a catalyst for the American Revolution, taverns where ‘there existed that full and free interplay of spontaneous and responsible group association which appears to be a necessary condition of a healthy social order.” (p. 67, quoting Carl and Jesse Bridenbaugh) As a result of this diminishment of public space, we are better informed of global than local affairs. Hence, the j’accuse that we ‘live in the hole of an informational doughnut.’ (p. 70) I also liked the little tidbit where the book reminds us that the Greek word from which we get idiot applies to those who only understood their private worlds and didn’t understand the way they connected to society (p. 71).
I didn’t appreciate his indictment of the Protestant (and Puritan) church as seeking “to ensure the life of the church over the life of the community.” (p. 74) I didn’t appreciate it because an inclusive, growing, and active church is precisely the kind of “third place” for which Oldenburg advocates. To be sure, my experiences in ministering to English Ministries of “immigrant” churches may color my perspective but I know that these types of churches have informal, playful, insightful, and encouraging conversations, relationships, and activities (social and recreational, as well as spiritual) and that many are open to Caucasians and those of ethnic minorities as well. It is ironic that Oldenburg counts out the local church and I personally suggest that it is probably because the churches with which he is familiar are primarily Sunday AM only congregations with little or no interaction through the week. But he’s probably right that much of the church’s earlier ranting about “keeping the Sabbath” by limiting amusements and public gatherings was largely a matter of taking care of the pastor’s livelihood (p. 100).
This reflects a historical tension between church and recreation. Oldenburg quotes that iconic social worker in Chicago, Jane Addams, as stating, “Since the soldiers of Cromwell shut up the people’s playhouses and destroyed their pleasure fields, the Anglo-Saxon city has turned over the provision for public recreation to the most evil-minded and most unscrupulous members of the community.” (p. 220) Citing U.S. cities with limited municipal swimming facilities because most of the planners and councilpersons have private pools, Oldenburg questions our current value system for public places of any kind, much less the conversational third places for which he advocates.
On the other hand, he seems dead on when he states that the mass media (and presumably, in the last decade, the narrow-cast pages of the web) provide so much entertainment and information that they encourage people to stay at home. Since “time spent in isolation is time lost to affiliation” this means a drop in social capital (p. 77). He also compares the authorities at the workplace (second place) unfavorably with the authorities at the “third place” by citing an old Latin proverb, Asperius nihil est humili cum surgit in altum (“Nothing is cruder (lit. rougher) than a humble [person] lifted to a height.”), and suggesting that the gatekeepers of the “third place” earn their place by common accord and approbation (p. 78).
Another insightful case is made when Oldenburg observes that U.S. citizens have become satisfied with an attitude that public spaces aren’t owned by anyone as opposed to being the communal property of everyone. As a result, we do a poor job of taking care of our public spaces, expecting governmental employees or contractors to pick up our messes (p. 83).
The amazing thing about “third places” all over the world is how many of them are based on serving alcohol: German beer gardens that spawned interest groups which formed drama clubs, debating societies, singing groups, volunteer fire departments, etc. (pp. 103-4); English pubs where “three-fourths of the drinking done in England still takes place in public settings…” (p. 123); French bistros, also known as the “clubs of the poor” (p. 146), providing something of another office for writers and planners; and American taverns and saloons on the frontier that provided the “melting pots for an ethnically diverse population.” (p. 166) It must have something to do with the talking-drinking synergism (p. 167). A survey conducted in 1974 indicated that tavern regulars drink far less than one would expect—45% only consuming one drink during a visit but staying a lengthy period to talk (p. 168). As the book quotes Kenneth Davids, “Every social lubricant has its home away from home, its church, as it were…” (p. 183)
There was also some interesting history. I always wondered about the early closing hours in England. I didn’t realize that the culture changed at the beginning of World War I in order to increase worker productivity (p. 137). It’s actually ironic that countries like those in Europe (Western Europe, at least) where there is lots of public consumption of alcohol, there is a negative correlation between drunkenness and the number of pubs in various regions of England (p. 159).
Of course, The Great Good Place would also suggest the classic coffeehouses of the 17th-19th centuries in both England and Austria. Not only did the coffeehouses spawn insurance agencies and stock exchanges in the former, but it is also credited with being a source of news and “education.” As Oldenburg quotes a late 17th century poet:
“So great a Universitie
I think there ne’er was any
In which you may a scholar be
For spending of a Penny.” (p. 185)
Of course, the English coffeehouse of that era wasn’t universally approved because they were the exclusive domain of males. As a result,
I was amused to read about The Women’s Petition Against Coffee as being responsible for the emasculation of the English male (p. 187). Some have speculated that this hostility toward the coffeehouse culture may have inspired the adoption of “tea” as the more important ritual beverage in the English lifestyle than coffee (p. 188).
In the German-Austrian tradition, those who regularly frequent one of the classic Viennese-style coffeehouses is known as a Stammgast (lit. “root” or “trunk” customer) and their regular table (as well as those who sit at it) are known as the Stammtisch (“root” table), a close-knit group with an unstated but obvious proviso that visitors need not apply (p. 195). Rather, one must be invited to that table. As an aside, this does happen in U.S. establishments. For years, the business of Chicago (both licit and illicit) was handled at a particular table in a particular restaurant near the center of power where representatives of the “Outfit” (aka “mafia”) met with representatives of the politicians. In addition, I remember visiting a small restaurant in a Southwestern town of less than 700 people where there was a Stammtisch that met regularly each morning and to which table one must be “invited” to sit.
In the last third of the book, Oldenburg presents his view of the progressively hostile environment toward “third places” in the United States. He notes that “third places” are generally “older” structures where the regulars can insinuate themselves and loiter, lounge, or hang out (depending on how you view such behavior), but all urban planning and zoning restrictions tend to discourage the social use of establishments from having an informal public life (pp. 204, 218). So “places” have been replaced by “newer” structures which the author calls “nonplaces” because of their sterility and lack of opportunity for leisurely interaction (p. 205). This sterilization is blamed on two factors: failure to consult those who might use the facilities and imitation of the same basic designs (p. 208). For example, note his cautionary word on venues designed specifically for children: “Whenever anyone takes the trouble to monitor the use that is made (or not made) of places created especially for children, the results usually indicate that the basic idea may be wrong.” (p. 280) Venues designed just for children tend to sit vacant and unused.
This is why citizens of the U.S. are estimated to spend 90% of their leisure time in their homes (my emphasis, but quoted from p. 214), a difficult way to experience cross-pollenization of ideas, indeed. And, while single-use facilities may be efficient for straightforward production uses, it doesn’t really work well for effective socialization (p. 215).
Remember, of course, that Oldenburg is a sociologist. As a result, at the very time he is lauding the value of same-sex “third places” in terms of solidifying gender roles and assisting acculturation, he drops a tidbit about romance and attraction that I’ve shared with others but not worded as well. “…sexual contact represents a spark of intensely erotic interest that bridges a gap between partners. The gap results from conflicts, tensions, antagonisms, or barriers that tend to keep potential partners apart. The principle is a simple one: no gaps, no sparks.” (p. 250) Another intriguing sociological canapé was his observation that marriage and family textbooks now refer to childfree couples rather than childless couples, making a virtue out of what was once seen as unfulfilled (p. 266).
In summary, the thesis can be advanced, “Eventually Americans will learn that the fast and hectic pace of urban life is not due to modernity but to bad urban planning.” (p. 287) As an individual, I couldn’t agree more. I do hope, however, that virtual communities (I place a higher value on them than Oldenburg, even though they were quite nascent when this book was originally published.) will actually stimulate the re-thinking of “actual” communities. We need “third places” to revitalize our sense of communities, togetherness, commitment, and creativity.
September 7, 2021
This is one of the best books I have read all year. In it, sociologist Ray Oldenburg reflects on and laments the loss of "third places" in Western culture. Human beings spend much of their time at home and a work but a third place (or "great good place") is a locale that fosters an informal public life away from the first two places.
Oldenburg describes the character of third places, noting that they tend to be older, that they attract loyal patrons, that they thrive on deep conversation, that they are "levelers" that welcome all regardless of social class (or worldview; in a social media age, we are increasingly driven into "filter bubbles" that place us with those of similar/identical beliefs but third places, because they are places "loved for their own sake," attract all comers of differing worldviews), and that "regulars" of third places not only help inculcate the third place culture but they also enjoy certain unspoken privileges or benefits due to their loyal longevity. A host plays an important role in a third place but so too do regulars who can choose to accept and include newcomers. Examples of third places include the lager beer gardens of German immigrants, Main Street, English pubs, French cafes, American taverns, and classic coffeehouses (particularly those modelled after Vienna coffeehouses), all of which have chapters dedicated to them in Oldenburg's book.
Third places have declined in the post-WWII era because of urban planning that seeks to maximize profits and that does not take into account the need for local, communal connections. The suburbs are the prime example of this; in the postwar era, housewives were confined to their homes where they felt isolated and lonely (Oldenburg provocatively suggests that Baby Boomer girls saw the misery of their lonely mothers and sought escape from a similar fate and that this helped contribute to the rise of the women's movement) and since the suburbs were not zoned for third places, they lacked the neighbourhood taverns, the corner stores, the bowling alleys that offered arenas for informal public life; instead, suburban America had to drive everywhere, thereby missing out on local connections that could be gained by strolling to the nearby commercial strip.
Oldenburg insists that third places have played a crucial role in nurturing good relations between the sexes. Women have at times been barred from third places (such as the early English coffeehouses) but they have effectively wielded influence over the domestic realm. At times, they have viewed third places as threats because their husbands spend so much time (for instance) at the local bar. But Oldenburg believes that third places helped to foster close male friendships that have now sharply declined in today's culture. Oldenburg also notes that the shift towards companionate marriages had a major impact on marital relationships:
“Men’s attention turned away from male bonding and the third place settings in which it had been celebrated on a daily basis. A new appreciation of one’s mate and a different marital relationship were being cultivated. In the face of repeated moves and the consequent loss of other stable ties, the husband came to rely upon his wife as a female sidekick whose growing presence in his life supplanted the lost continuity of male relationships. A new marital intimacy took shape around the fact that the spouse had become the man’s one hope for a durable relationship in life” (p. 245).
Third places DO take men (and women) away from their spouses, but this absence creates longing in the spouses for one another that can then be released when they are both at home. By not smothering one another, by both having meaningful friendships with other people, they become happier with one another because the spouse does not have to then be the "be-all-and-end-all" for the other person. There is much food for thought here for Christians navigating marriages; many evangelicals have adopted the principle that you "marry your best friend" (companionate marriages) but how can Christian couples encourage one another in their close same-sex friendships (to me, this seems easier for women than for men so I think particular care should be given towards fostering close male friendships for husbands).
Some moral conservatives, such as those in the temperance movements, have sharply objected to drinking. Yet Oldenburg laments that public drinking has declined while private drinking has increased. One can be grateful that this perhaps contributes to less drunk driving accidents, but at the same time, public drinking can discourage EXCESSIVE drinking; someone drinking at home has no witnesses who might "tut-tut" them from over-drinking.
To me, Oldenburg's book is charged with the spirit of G.K. Chesterton and Wendell Berry, champions of the common man and local culture. Indeed, as Oldenburg explains in his chapter on French cafes:
"Conservatism grows with the investment in a locality. The longer individuals remain in a given area, the more they resist both change and the idea of moving. Once the French worker finds a tolerable work situation, a suitable dwelling for his family, and a bistro at which to enjoy the companionship of his pals, he becomes an immovable object. Why should he move?...Having established his first, second, and third place, the Frenchman wisely proceeds to enjoy them. They are satisfied individuals, neither lonely nor dependent upon tomorrow to bring life’s rewards. The American, having achieved an outwardly similar situation, is far more easily dislodged from it, for the American is conditioned not to be satisfied" (p. 154).
Corporations like Starbucks or McDonald's may provide a third space (for the latter see Chris Arnade's wonderful Dignity: Seeking Respect in Back Row America) but their obsessive thirst for maximizing profits undermines their value as third spaces. Thus, third spaces are not typically chains but local business and establishments that have roots in the neighbourhood.
One aspect of great good places that is all-too-briefly touched on is how ethnic pluralism impacts third places. Oldenburg mentions how the Russian "Polya Club" operated as an "ethnic enclave" and helped encourage cultural traditions among old and young in the eastern USA but when Oldenburg discusses cultural assimilation he mostly refers to European cultures - English, French, German, Italian, Russian. Third places DO help maintain cultural traditions but in heavily pluralistic metropolises such as Los Angeles, New York, Vancouver, and London, it seems to me that ethnic pluralism and great good places may clash (especially since third places thrive on deep conversation and some new immigrants may not be able to communicate with their fellow citizens); as indicated in the places Oldenburg explores, these locales originated from particular ethnicities and in order to maintain their character and charm, patrons must respect their unique cultural ethos. At the same time, the desire to be welcoming and hospitable to all can dilute this uniqueness which can be a barrier to newcomers (indeed, Oldenburg describes how many great good places remodeled their decor and revamped their menus to suit yuppies and professional women who began frequently these establishments, even though this meant changing what longtime regulars were accustomed to).
I was also surprised that churches were not given more attention. Churches are the "third place" for many people - the Sunday school teacher, the youth group leader, the prayer group member. Many committed Christians do not confine their religious activity to just Sunday mornings but are involved in church throughout the week (and in the past, many Christians attended services in the morning AND the evening on Sundays). Still, I suppose churches don't have the same low-barriers to membership that cafes and pubs do; a Southern Baptist, an atheist, a communist, an environmentalist, and a transgender activist can all go to the pub together but only the Christian would naturally feel comfortable in the pews.
I had heard of third places before reading this book but 'The Great Good Place' was an illuminating exploration of their character and customs. I highly recommend this book. It has inspired me to think about how I can cultivate third places, even in limited ways, in my own life. And, you really come to appreciate the genius of 'Cheers' - a televised sitcom of a third place where "everybody knows your name and they're always glad you came."
Oldenburg describes the character of third places, noting that they tend to be older, that they attract loyal patrons, that they thrive on deep conversation, that they are "levelers" that welcome all regardless of social class (or worldview; in a social media age, we are increasingly driven into "filter bubbles" that place us with those of similar/identical beliefs but third places, because they are places "loved for their own sake," attract all comers of differing worldviews), and that "regulars" of third places not only help inculcate the third place culture but they also enjoy certain unspoken privileges or benefits due to their loyal longevity. A host plays an important role in a third place but so too do regulars who can choose to accept and include newcomers. Examples of third places include the lager beer gardens of German immigrants, Main Street, English pubs, French cafes, American taverns, and classic coffeehouses (particularly those modelled after Vienna coffeehouses), all of which have chapters dedicated to them in Oldenburg's book.
Third places have declined in the post-WWII era because of urban planning that seeks to maximize profits and that does not take into account the need for local, communal connections. The suburbs are the prime example of this; in the postwar era, housewives were confined to their homes where they felt isolated and lonely (Oldenburg provocatively suggests that Baby Boomer girls saw the misery of their lonely mothers and sought escape from a similar fate and that this helped contribute to the rise of the women's movement) and since the suburbs were not zoned for third places, they lacked the neighbourhood taverns, the corner stores, the bowling alleys that offered arenas for informal public life; instead, suburban America had to drive everywhere, thereby missing out on local connections that could be gained by strolling to the nearby commercial strip.
Oldenburg insists that third places have played a crucial role in nurturing good relations between the sexes. Women have at times been barred from third places (such as the early English coffeehouses) but they have effectively wielded influence over the domestic realm. At times, they have viewed third places as threats because their husbands spend so much time (for instance) at the local bar. But Oldenburg believes that third places helped to foster close male friendships that have now sharply declined in today's culture. Oldenburg also notes that the shift towards companionate marriages had a major impact on marital relationships:
“Men’s attention turned away from male bonding and the third place settings in which it had been celebrated on a daily basis. A new appreciation of one’s mate and a different marital relationship were being cultivated. In the face of repeated moves and the consequent loss of other stable ties, the husband came to rely upon his wife as a female sidekick whose growing presence in his life supplanted the lost continuity of male relationships. A new marital intimacy took shape around the fact that the spouse had become the man’s one hope for a durable relationship in life” (p. 245).
Third places DO take men (and women) away from their spouses, but this absence creates longing in the spouses for one another that can then be released when they are both at home. By not smothering one another, by both having meaningful friendships with other people, they become happier with one another because the spouse does not have to then be the "be-all-and-end-all" for the other person. There is much food for thought here for Christians navigating marriages; many evangelicals have adopted the principle that you "marry your best friend" (companionate marriages) but how can Christian couples encourage one another in their close same-sex friendships (to me, this seems easier for women than for men so I think particular care should be given towards fostering close male friendships for husbands).
Some moral conservatives, such as those in the temperance movements, have sharply objected to drinking. Yet Oldenburg laments that public drinking has declined while private drinking has increased. One can be grateful that this perhaps contributes to less drunk driving accidents, but at the same time, public drinking can discourage EXCESSIVE drinking; someone drinking at home has no witnesses who might "tut-tut" them from over-drinking.
To me, Oldenburg's book is charged with the spirit of G.K. Chesterton and Wendell Berry, champions of the common man and local culture. Indeed, as Oldenburg explains in his chapter on French cafes:
"Conservatism grows with the investment in a locality. The longer individuals remain in a given area, the more they resist both change and the idea of moving. Once the French worker finds a tolerable work situation, a suitable dwelling for his family, and a bistro at which to enjoy the companionship of his pals, he becomes an immovable object. Why should he move?...Having established his first, second, and third place, the Frenchman wisely proceeds to enjoy them. They are satisfied individuals, neither lonely nor dependent upon tomorrow to bring life’s rewards. The American, having achieved an outwardly similar situation, is far more easily dislodged from it, for the American is conditioned not to be satisfied" (p. 154).
Corporations like Starbucks or McDonald's may provide a third space (for the latter see Chris Arnade's wonderful Dignity: Seeking Respect in Back Row America) but their obsessive thirst for maximizing profits undermines their value as third spaces. Thus, third spaces are not typically chains but local business and establishments that have roots in the neighbourhood.
One aspect of great good places that is all-too-briefly touched on is how ethnic pluralism impacts third places. Oldenburg mentions how the Russian "Polya Club" operated as an "ethnic enclave" and helped encourage cultural traditions among old and young in the eastern USA but when Oldenburg discusses cultural assimilation he mostly refers to European cultures - English, French, German, Italian, Russian. Third places DO help maintain cultural traditions but in heavily pluralistic metropolises such as Los Angeles, New York, Vancouver, and London, it seems to me that ethnic pluralism and great good places may clash (especially since third places thrive on deep conversation and some new immigrants may not be able to communicate with their fellow citizens); as indicated in the places Oldenburg explores, these locales originated from particular ethnicities and in order to maintain their character and charm, patrons must respect their unique cultural ethos. At the same time, the desire to be welcoming and hospitable to all can dilute this uniqueness which can be a barrier to newcomers (indeed, Oldenburg describes how many great good places remodeled their decor and revamped their menus to suit yuppies and professional women who began frequently these establishments, even though this meant changing what longtime regulars were accustomed to).
I was also surprised that churches were not given more attention. Churches are the "third place" for many people - the Sunday school teacher, the youth group leader, the prayer group member. Many committed Christians do not confine their religious activity to just Sunday mornings but are involved in church throughout the week (and in the past, many Christians attended services in the morning AND the evening on Sundays). Still, I suppose churches don't have the same low-barriers to membership that cafes and pubs do; a Southern Baptist, an atheist, a communist, an environmentalist, and a transgender activist can all go to the pub together but only the Christian would naturally feel comfortable in the pews.
I had heard of third places before reading this book but 'The Great Good Place' was an illuminating exploration of their character and customs. I highly recommend this book. It has inspired me to think about how I can cultivate third places, even in limited ways, in my own life. And, you really come to appreciate the genius of 'Cheers' - a televised sitcom of a third place where "everybody knows your name and they're always glad you came."
September 1, 2017
Definitely too long. This book had been on my list for several years and it took what felt like several years to finish it. I don't disagree with his conclusions but it could have been said much more concisely. My concise version: "Community is necessary and necessitates a place for it to happen."
Thank you! Proceeds may be sent to me at this account...
Thank you! Proceeds may be sent to me at this account...
October 8, 2009
I liked the idea behind this book, which is what prompted me to pick it up and read it. Here we are, a month and a half later, having finished three good books in the interim, and I've finally finished it. The fist part was interesting, albiet dry and slow going. The second part was also interesting although parts of it started to lose its appeal. The final part was filled with outrageous claims that at times made me question the author's sanity.
Anyways, the opening explains the point of the book. The author laments the loss of an informal public life, which had been maintained by third places (the first place being your home and the second place being your work).
The second part goes through a description of several different third places ranging from French Cafes to Main Street in small town America. Again, this part was interesting.
Finally, the author tried to draw conclusions and give the book an ending. This part really lost it. It dropped the review down a few stars. The author starts out sounding like an old man complaining about the way things were, but some of the author's claims are just insane. They make no sense. Which is frustrating because he still has one or two nuggets of information which get lost amid the sea of craziness. The simple fact is that not all of soceity's problems would be solved if everyeone went to a neighborhood bar for a beer or two every night. The author has serious problems with car-centered suburbia which I totally agree with but he makes no difference between car-centered suburubia and anything else. I live in the city. I don't even own a car. I can walk or take public transportation anywhere I go. Anyways, I'll give you just an idea of some of the author's outrageous claims. I apologize in advance for not offering all the context of each of these statements, but if I did that, this review would get too long and be a little too dry. And no context would fully explain these statements. 'Perceptive people often note the difference in their friends or acquaintances when the spouse is present and when he or she is not. They are stuck by the wondrous transformation when the spouse is not present. A husband may regard his wife, along with all other women, as 'dumb' or 'childlike.' He may be exceedingly 'touchy' and respond to everything she says with belligerence. He may level a steady stream of criticism at her in an attempt to bolster his self-esteem. Women often seem hyperconcerned about the impressions their husbands make in the company of others. They may correct their husbands, excuse or apologize for their shortcomings; they may critically monitor everything their husbands have to say. The male at middle age is noted for his passivity under this form of oppression. He doesn't try to be witty, interesting, or to enjoy himself when his wife is around.' 'Only in adolescence do males and females 'hang out' fairly well together.' 'A woman's mood in her home is enhanced by the presence of her spouse but depressed by the presence of her children.' 'In today's schools no less than earlier ones, the abiding concern is with accounting for the location of bodies and not the development of minds.' 'Eventually Americans will learn that the fast and hectic pace of urban life is not due to modernity but to bad urban planning.' There are more that I can't find at the moment, including the one drawing correlations between lack of a third place and domestic violence.
The author doesn't even mention the internet. I know this book was first published in 1989, but this edition was republished years later with an updated preface and the author makes no mention of the social benefits of the internet and how the younger generation uses it to socialize and keep in touch with friends across the country and around the world. This is an obvious ommission.
Just as I regretting picking Nickel and Dimed rather than the Working Poor. I really regret reading this instead of Bowling Alone.
Anyways, the opening explains the point of the book. The author laments the loss of an informal public life, which had been maintained by third places (the first place being your home and the second place being your work).
The second part goes through a description of several different third places ranging from French Cafes to Main Street in small town America. Again, this part was interesting.
Finally, the author tried to draw conclusions and give the book an ending. This part really lost it. It dropped the review down a few stars. The author starts out sounding like an old man complaining about the way things were, but some of the author's claims are just insane. They make no sense. Which is frustrating because he still has one or two nuggets of information which get lost amid the sea of craziness. The simple fact is that not all of soceity's problems would be solved if everyeone went to a neighborhood bar for a beer or two every night. The author has serious problems with car-centered suburbia which I totally agree with but he makes no difference between car-centered suburubia and anything else. I live in the city. I don't even own a car. I can walk or take public transportation anywhere I go. Anyways, I'll give you just an idea of some of the author's outrageous claims. I apologize in advance for not offering all the context of each of these statements, but if I did that, this review would get too long and be a little too dry. And no context would fully explain these statements. 'Perceptive people often note the difference in their friends or acquaintances when the spouse is present and when he or she is not. They are stuck by the wondrous transformation when the spouse is not present. A husband may regard his wife, along with all other women, as 'dumb' or 'childlike.' He may be exceedingly 'touchy' and respond to everything she says with belligerence. He may level a steady stream of criticism at her in an attempt to bolster his self-esteem. Women often seem hyperconcerned about the impressions their husbands make in the company of others. They may correct their husbands, excuse or apologize for their shortcomings; they may critically monitor everything their husbands have to say. The male at middle age is noted for his passivity under this form of oppression. He doesn't try to be witty, interesting, or to enjoy himself when his wife is around.' 'Only in adolescence do males and females 'hang out' fairly well together.' 'A woman's mood in her home is enhanced by the presence of her spouse but depressed by the presence of her children.' 'In today's schools no less than earlier ones, the abiding concern is with accounting for the location of bodies and not the development of minds.' 'Eventually Americans will learn that the fast and hectic pace of urban life is not due to modernity but to bad urban planning.' There are more that I can't find at the moment, including the one drawing correlations between lack of a third place and domestic violence.
The author doesn't even mention the internet. I know this book was first published in 1989, but this edition was republished years later with an updated preface and the author makes no mention of the social benefits of the internet and how the younger generation uses it to socialize and keep in touch with friends across the country and around the world. This is an obvious ommission.
Just as I regretting picking Nickel and Dimed rather than the Working Poor. I really regret reading this instead of Bowling Alone.
February 27, 2018
If you're like me, raised in the suburbs but strangely attracted to cities and newer suburbs, the opposite of the places where planning departments, homeowners associations, and elected officials have created disjointed subdivisions that lack the vitality of newly revitalized urban areas, read this book.
When I visit places like Richmond, Raleigh, Tampa and I see people who live in the same places they work, shopping, walking, visiting small bistros, taverns, wine bars, tiny parks, local barber shops and down-sized grocery stores, one knows why suburbia is so boring, sterile, and homogenous.
We've banished any commercial development in our neighborhoods. We've banished diversity. There's nowhere to conduct business or meet others unless we get into a car and drive to it. Our children are chauffeured to everything from school to baseball practice and other activities with adults always present in great numbers.
Apartments and condos are placed far out of sight of single-family dwellings, such that people of different means no longer co-mingle or associate.
We've lost the ability to keep a neighborhood tavern family friendly because with our segregation came a loss of civility. A tavern in our neighborhood? Bring on the fistfights and out of control behavior. An apartment building within eyesight of my home? Shudder the thought.
Learn what we've lost and what we are--hermits trapped in our suburban homes and neighborhood, reliant on cars for even the most basic of social interactions.
When I visit places like Richmond, Raleigh, Tampa and I see people who live in the same places they work, shopping, walking, visiting small bistros, taverns, wine bars, tiny parks, local barber shops and down-sized grocery stores, one knows why suburbia is so boring, sterile, and homogenous.
We've banished any commercial development in our neighborhoods. We've banished diversity. There's nowhere to conduct business or meet others unless we get into a car and drive to it. Our children are chauffeured to everything from school to baseball practice and other activities with adults always present in great numbers.
Apartments and condos are placed far out of sight of single-family dwellings, such that people of different means no longer co-mingle or associate.
We've lost the ability to keep a neighborhood tavern family friendly because with our segregation came a loss of civility. A tavern in our neighborhood? Bring on the fistfights and out of control behavior. An apartment building within eyesight of my home? Shudder the thought.
Learn what we've lost and what we are--hermits trapped in our suburban homes and neighborhood, reliant on cars for even the most basic of social interactions.
August 13, 2021
Best book I've read all year ! A thousand- no, a million stars for The Great Good Place !
November 4, 2007
Read this in Library School and really enjoyed it. Now I need to read Bowling Alone.
March 26, 2018
I think I first became familiar with the phrase "third place" in relation to libraries when I was in grad school for library science, and I've been interested by the concept ever since. A lot of television series have portrayed the "third place" well ("Cheers" is a good example). I enjoyed reading about how events in history, as well as urban development and other things, have affected the third place, and what the consequences have been. I've been intrigued by some new apartment developments in the Triangle that have included nearby grocery stores and shopping areas. Maybe "third places" are making a comeback.
August 24, 2022
I don't really buy the idea the author is selling, and anyway he isn't selling it to me but to the American readers. That aside, as a homebody and an introvert, it is simply difficult for me to imagine how important the third places are. Obviously I need to think in context of my surrounding for it to make sense, and the only third places that I can think of in Malaysia are those nameless "gerai makan" and Mamak restaurants. And I can't imagine lauding the invigorating impact of those places to the society, in the next ten years or ever. As the author put it, I am one of those people who are likely to view those places as "melepak" (loitering) along with the negative connotation with it. Basically, I am a lost cause.
I do agree with some of the author's points and I do think there are interesting ideas here. That the society has become a consumer society, to the point consumerism is subconsciously seen as "solving" our problems (when you're stressed out, you cheer yourself up by ordering craps from Shopee), is something I agree about. The impact of cars in how we live (urban planners making it so shops and conveniences are located at a distance you can't conveniently walk to, so we're driving everywhere) is a reform point many have been raising. Like Eixample in Barcelona which is aiming to more or less become carless. But as a whole, I don't believe that the third place is the cure-all that will solve all the problems the author claims it will.
There are also discrepancies and contradictions in his arguments, as far as I can see. One of the characteristics of a third place according to the author is it acts as a leveler. Everyone can come and be treated as equal when they go to a third place, regardless of their social standing. And yet, in the chapter he dedicated to the English pub as his example of third place, the customers were said to be segregated, there were areas where certain class of people went to so they didn't have to mingle with the great unwashed at the other part of the pub. This kind of contradiction occurs many times in the examples of third places the author listed. One could presume the characteristics were there just as a guide, except the author made a point that a third place had to have all those characteristics or they didn't count (in his attempt to exclude the likes of Nazi's beer halls from his perfect picture of a third place).
I picked up the book partly because of the mention of bookstore but there is barely any mention of it as a third place. Instead it's all talks about drinking. The social lubricant. I don't drink so another reason why this book and its idea don't speak to me. But I think the author even insisted that drinking didn't lead to drunk driving and traffic accident, and that's just overreaching.
Also, if you are a woman, the book may disagree with you at some levels. For me personally, the idea that my partner needs to spend hours at Mamak every day to invigorate himself is just as bad as saying "Bros before hoes". And while I agree that maybe it's not good for a couple to be glued to each other 24/7, the author makes it sound as if spending hours with your spouse is so emotionally taxing and socially debilitating on a man. There is a lot of lamenting for the loss of men's places.
I am sure there is something to be garnered here especially by the urban planners. But I am just not sold on the idea.
I do agree with some of the author's points and I do think there are interesting ideas here. That the society has become a consumer society, to the point consumerism is subconsciously seen as "solving" our problems (when you're stressed out, you cheer yourself up by ordering craps from Shopee), is something I agree about. The impact of cars in how we live (urban planners making it so shops and conveniences are located at a distance you can't conveniently walk to, so we're driving everywhere) is a reform point many have been raising. Like Eixample in Barcelona which is aiming to more or less become carless. But as a whole, I don't believe that the third place is the cure-all that will solve all the problems the author claims it will.
There are also discrepancies and contradictions in his arguments, as far as I can see. One of the characteristics of a third place according to the author is it acts as a leveler. Everyone can come and be treated as equal when they go to a third place, regardless of their social standing. And yet, in the chapter he dedicated to the English pub as his example of third place, the customers were said to be segregated, there were areas where certain class of people went to so they didn't have to mingle with the great unwashed at the other part of the pub. This kind of contradiction occurs many times in the examples of third places the author listed. One could presume the characteristics were there just as a guide, except the author made a point that a third place had to have all those characteristics or they didn't count (in his attempt to exclude the likes of Nazi's beer halls from his perfect picture of a third place).
I picked up the book partly because of the mention of bookstore but there is barely any mention of it as a third place. Instead it's all talks about drinking. The social lubricant. I don't drink so another reason why this book and its idea don't speak to me. But I think the author even insisted that drinking didn't lead to drunk driving and traffic accident, and that's just overreaching.
Also, if you are a woman, the book may disagree with you at some levels. For me personally, the idea that my partner needs to spend hours at Mamak every day to invigorate himself is just as bad as saying "Bros before hoes". And while I agree that maybe it's not good for a couple to be glued to each other 24/7, the author makes it sound as if spending hours with your spouse is so emotionally taxing and socially debilitating on a man. There is a lot of lamenting for the loss of men's places.
I am sure there is something to be garnered here especially by the urban planners. But I am just not sold on the idea.
December 21, 2022
So interesting and captivating! Many great points were brought to my attention! However, at least half of this book left me leaning back with a concerned frown on my face, asking myself, “Isn’t this [insert line, chapter, phrase, joke]…kinda misogynistic?” Got a bit of whiplash bouncing so fast between some very modern, feminist thinking and suddenly to a very heteronormative, almost blatantly sexist comment. When the chapter on the sexes was 1) mostly about men 2) somewhat derogatory towards the impact on and from women in The Third Place. And not to mention what was virtually no mention of the LGBTQ community and their own creation of their Third Places, which started in the ‘50s.
I would love to see a modern revisitation to this book. The concept of The Third Place is timeless, but it’s evolution is one that ebbs and flows constantly. In a post-pandemic world, I would be fascinated to see how much as changed, for better and for worse— and especially with more insight involving women, LGBT communities, and diverse cultural, racial, and religious communities.
I would love to see a modern revisitation to this book. The concept of The Third Place is timeless, but it’s evolution is one that ebbs and flows constantly. In a post-pandemic world, I would be fascinated to see how much as changed, for better and for worse— and especially with more insight involving women, LGBT communities, and diverse cultural, racial, and religious communities.
Want to read
January 27, 2024Notes as I read it
If you are interested in the authors suggested reading list look in my want to read items from Jan 2024.
The preferred and ubiquitous mode of urban development is hostile to both walking and talking. In walking people become part of their terrain, they meet others,they become custodians of their neighborhood. In talking, people get to know one another, they find and create their common interests and realize the collective abilities essential to community and democracy.
20 percent of the US population changes residence each year.
If you are interested in the authors suggested reading list look in my want to read items from Jan 2024.
The preferred and ubiquitous mode of urban development is hostile to both walking and talking. In walking people become part of their terrain, they meet others,they become custodians of their neighborhood. In talking, people get to know one another, they find and create their common interests and realize the collective abilities essential to community and democracy.
20 percent of the US population changes residence each year.
Read
November 7, 2023starbucks creator really said “copy paste” … but oldenburg lowkey spit with this
Want to read
June 11, 2025TikTok rec
July 18, 2022
Worth reading I think. A little dated in some respects and in other respects clearly representative of a particular (white, male) point of view but overall very engaging and thought-provoking (and sometimes yearning-provoking. I yearned.)
May 10, 2024
Very very good. Hauntingly predicts a lot of future bullshit we now deal with. He almost gets 4.5 stars at the end for me, because of dated language and ignorant assumptions. However, he redeems himself in the last chapter and earns 5 stars.
October 25, 2024
Mid book. Part I was probably the best part, then everything started to get yappy and then probably too obsessed with the author's own initial discoveries towards the end.
As written elsewhere, I thought an anthropologist would probably write this book better than a sociologist would.
As written elsewhere, I thought an anthropologist would probably write this book better than a sociologist would.
July 2, 2022
A Great Good Place or “third place” as Ray Oldenburg coined is a meeting place where people can gather and put aside the stresses and concerns of home and work (first and second places). As the United States made its entry into a post World War II era, these community gathering places such as taverns, coffee shops, and cafes began to diminish from civilization. The local pub or tavern was replaced with the comforts of television and living rooms. The private dwelling had slowly taken center stage. There was no longer as much of a need to go out carousing, drinking, and relaxing with fellow regulars and neighbors at the local tavern.
What the Great Good Places does is promotes these local establishments and gets into the history of the “third place” and its importance in how we build and function in a society. Any City Planner would be remiss if this book does not hold a position on their book shelf. Oldenburg takes the reader on a history course through German beer gardens, main streets, English pubs, French cafes, American taverns, and classic coffeehouses to explain their importance in social life and the city landscape. These are places that neighbors could walk to, meet with regulars, and discuss the coming and goings of daily life.
This was a very detailed book and written more as a text book on social gathering places. Oldenburg’s explanation of these places’ benefits helps promote their importance for incorporating them into modern life. Thinking about third place in my own community in Spokane, Wa - there are a few of these places within short walking distance of my home. Perhaps being this book was written in the late 80s, the call from Oldenburg has been heeded and these gathering places are now more prevalent today than when the book was written. We have perhaps even gotten back to pre World War II levels.
I would be curious to know Oldenburg’s thoughts on where we are as a society in terms of social connection. While we are certainly more connected now than ever before through social media, how often are we meeting face to face with one another? At the time of his writing, Americans were spending 90% of their leisure time at home. And why not? Our homes were made larger and filled with endless devices to keep us occupied. And with the inclusion of Amazon and home delivery, we can just about survive without ever leaving our homes. Perhaps we hit a peak of time spent at home and the more we begin to feel that “cabin fever” set in, the more likely we are to go in search of a third place.
With Covid-19 sweeping across the globe, we may have found value in third places more than ever before. Our homes were acting as both dwelling and workspace. Third places were nonexistent or limited in many capacities. If people are confined to their homes and continue to use them as workspaces, then we’ll need our third places more than ever before.
I highly recommend the book for anyone that enjoys a low-light classic, local dive bar, the local coffee shop, or for anyone that simply enjoys bellying up to the bar to converse with their favorite bartender. Whether in America or elsewhere, we need this book now more than ever before. I highly recommend it. It may not be one you read word for word, but a good one to reference and revisit from the shelf every now and then.
What the Great Good Places does is promotes these local establishments and gets into the history of the “third place” and its importance in how we build and function in a society. Any City Planner would be remiss if this book does not hold a position on their book shelf. Oldenburg takes the reader on a history course through German beer gardens, main streets, English pubs, French cafes, American taverns, and classic coffeehouses to explain their importance in social life and the city landscape. These are places that neighbors could walk to, meet with regulars, and discuss the coming and goings of daily life.
This was a very detailed book and written more as a text book on social gathering places. Oldenburg’s explanation of these places’ benefits helps promote their importance for incorporating them into modern life. Thinking about third place in my own community in Spokane, Wa - there are a few of these places within short walking distance of my home. Perhaps being this book was written in the late 80s, the call from Oldenburg has been heeded and these gathering places are now more prevalent today than when the book was written. We have perhaps even gotten back to pre World War II levels.
I would be curious to know Oldenburg’s thoughts on where we are as a society in terms of social connection. While we are certainly more connected now than ever before through social media, how often are we meeting face to face with one another? At the time of his writing, Americans were spending 90% of their leisure time at home. And why not? Our homes were made larger and filled with endless devices to keep us occupied. And with the inclusion of Amazon and home delivery, we can just about survive without ever leaving our homes. Perhaps we hit a peak of time spent at home and the more we begin to feel that “cabin fever” set in, the more likely we are to go in search of a third place.
With Covid-19 sweeping across the globe, we may have found value in third places more than ever before. Our homes were acting as both dwelling and workspace. Third places were nonexistent or limited in many capacities. If people are confined to their homes and continue to use them as workspaces, then we’ll need our third places more than ever before.
I highly recommend the book for anyone that enjoys a low-light classic, local dive bar, the local coffee shop, or for anyone that simply enjoys bellying up to the bar to converse with their favorite bartender. Whether in America or elsewhere, we need this book now more than ever before. I highly recommend it. It may not be one you read word for word, but a good one to reference and revisit from the shelf every now and then.
June 1, 2010
After Elise read this book and liked it, I had high expectations. I had just finished reading "Bowling Alone" and was excited to continue reading on the topic of community (see also "Little Chapel On The River"). Ultimately, though, I felt pretty disappointed in this book. In contrast to Robert Putnam, Oldenburg makes very little effort to incorporate academic research into his book. He may well be a highly skilled sociologist, but his totally casual style ends up making him seem more fly-by-night than Putnam. Thus his argument seems fairly sentimental--which does not mean it's not worthwhile, but perhaps does mean that it would be better expressed in fiction or memoir form. Certainly Wendy Bounds is essentially making the same argument in "Little Chapel", and I find that book much more meaningful.
One point that I can't avoid making is that I also found Oldenburg to be pretty off-puttingly chauvinist. (I was surprised to find that I was more upset by this than Elise was!) The "third place" is traditionally a male-dominated hangout, and RO makes only token attempts to address gender disparities in the past and going forward (which to me is even worse than not addressing them at all). He often comments on how the presence of a spouse may inhibit a person's interactions with others in the third place, but his characterizations of those inhibitions are clearly, if implicitly, stereotypically female. Perhaps relatedly, RO also makes one (fairly offhanded) remark about homosexuality that I found pretty offensive.
One point that I can't avoid making is that I also found Oldenburg to be pretty off-puttingly chauvinist. (I was surprised to find that I was more upset by this than Elise was!) The "third place" is traditionally a male-dominated hangout, and RO makes only token attempts to address gender disparities in the past and going forward (which to me is even worse than not addressing them at all). He often comments on how the presence of a spouse may inhibit a person's interactions with others in the third place, but his characterizations of those inhibitions are clearly, if implicitly, stereotypically female. Perhaps relatedly, RO also makes one (fairly offhanded) remark about homosexuality that I found pretty offensive.
December 31, 2020
Finished reading Ray Oldenburgs’s The Great Good Place, where he originally coined the term ‘Third Place’ that I use to describe part of our approach as Stichting Lokaal. Less based on research than I had hoped and expected, the book does provide many examples that are both identifiable and food for thought. With the American suburbs as distopian reference, the book reviews the old Main Street, French bistro, English pub, German biergarten (also the imported biergartens in New York, those vibrant communities of immigrants from all nationalities) and others places that each may exemplify that ideal ‘third place’. When you remember that the book was first published in 1989, the outdated view on gender roles and the social acceptation of daily alcohol use can be seen in perspective. As with Carolyn Steel’s reference to ‘food desserts’ in her book Hungry City, it struck me once again that our little country - even its ‘vinex wijken’ - are not much like America’s suburbs. Still, our way of life has an increasing resemblance to theirs, with all the focus on work, individualism, personal development and money making that provides less and less space (mental, physical as well as financial) for vibrant local communities, where people regardless age, class, gender or colour hang out together.
December 10, 2020
The thesis of this book is wonderful but Oldenburg loses himself in nostalgia and a meandering story. The examples feel contrived and all of history is viewed from the perspective of men. Grateful for the thesis on the importance of third places and community. But the rest of the book is outdated and repetitive.
November 14, 2017
“The third place” as a term began in this book, almost thirty years ago. Ray Oldenburg wanted to make the case for the informed public life, which, in the late eighties, he found in cafés, bookshops, diners and similar places. But he also found these places disappearing as suburbs of that period drained some cities of the people who populated these spots. And that’s what inspired this book. After home and work, third places now make a resurgence in older cities with active walkable neighborhoods.
Social media and their influence arrived long after this book published, so his thoughts feel dated in many sections. Oldenburg, nonetheless, offers a deep history into “the happy gathering places” that we think of as the homes away from home. The stranger feels at home in these informal public gathering places. Think of Paris with its sidewalk cafés, London pubs, Florence piazzas.
Third places everywhere share common but essential features, writes Oldenburg. They are on neutral ground and they function as a leveler of people from different strata. Conversation is the main activity.
The rules for conversation, which seem quaint today, included these: stay quiet during your share of the time, then speak in as low a voice that will allow others to hear you. Bores talk louder, writes Oldenburg.
But these days, the abrasive background music of many cafés with hard walls means finding a quiet table away from the main room. And, if you want to read a book, pack earplugs to filter the noise.
The regulars set the mood and manner that give a place its style of interaction, Oldenburg writes. Every regular began as a newcomer. Regulars of third places come as they are.
Today’s informal gathering spots enjoy a long tradition.
French bistros and sidewalk cafés emerged five hundred years ago, about the time of the first coffeehouses in Saudi Arabia. Bistros became favored places for writing books and letters. Londoners imported the habit and dropped in to their coffeehouses several times a day for the news, before newspapers and daily mail. The democratic atmosphere of the coffeehouse contrasted with the drunks at inns and taverns.
Milwaukee Germans almost two hundred years ago, the author explains, fashioned a collective life in the city. Beer gardens welcomed everyone. From there, bands, reading clubs and other organizations emerged. German immigrants understood the importance of informal public gathering places. In Milwaukee, by the eighteen-sixties, its best taverns offered good beer, music, conversation and food, often free.
Because the concept of the third place intrigued me for years, this book lived on my to-read shelf for a long time. Although anchored in the eighties, it was a worthwhile read. The book needed a good editor. But, by now, the topic needs a new book, using this as the beginning. Three and a half stars.
Social media and their influence arrived long after this book published, so his thoughts feel dated in many sections. Oldenburg, nonetheless, offers a deep history into “the happy gathering places” that we think of as the homes away from home. The stranger feels at home in these informal public gathering places. Think of Paris with its sidewalk cafés, London pubs, Florence piazzas.
Third places everywhere share common but essential features, writes Oldenburg. They are on neutral ground and they function as a leveler of people from different strata. Conversation is the main activity.
The rules for conversation, which seem quaint today, included these: stay quiet during your share of the time, then speak in as low a voice that will allow others to hear you. Bores talk louder, writes Oldenburg.
But these days, the abrasive background music of many cafés with hard walls means finding a quiet table away from the main room. And, if you want to read a book, pack earplugs to filter the noise.
The regulars set the mood and manner that give a place its style of interaction, Oldenburg writes. Every regular began as a newcomer. Regulars of third places come as they are.
Today’s informal gathering spots enjoy a long tradition.
French bistros and sidewalk cafés emerged five hundred years ago, about the time of the first coffeehouses in Saudi Arabia. Bistros became favored places for writing books and letters. Londoners imported the habit and dropped in to their coffeehouses several times a day for the news, before newspapers and daily mail. The democratic atmosphere of the coffeehouse contrasted with the drunks at inns and taverns.
Milwaukee Germans almost two hundred years ago, the author explains, fashioned a collective life in the city. Beer gardens welcomed everyone. From there, bands, reading clubs and other organizations emerged. German immigrants understood the importance of informal public gathering places. In Milwaukee, by the eighteen-sixties, its best taverns offered good beer, music, conversation and food, often free.
Because the concept of the third place intrigued me for years, this book lived on my to-read shelf for a long time. Although anchored in the eighties, it was a worthwhile read. The book needed a good editor. But, by now, the topic needs a new book, using this as the beginning. Three and a half stars.
March 26, 2024
If I had to review when I read the first 100 pages, I would’ve given this five stars. However, I’m frankly shocked at the sexism in this book. I’m not being hyperbolic—I can’t remember a time I’ve ever felt so shoved out of a narrative. The third place belongs to all of us—I truly believe that—but Oldenburg means “us” as in “us boys.” I truly felt sorry for his wife reading this because of how he depicted women to be nothing more than a burden to their husband or a mandatory caretaker whose third place is nowhere at all—we should be home raising children. And if you don’t want children? You’re the reason the country is facing a massive crisis in community; not the infrastructure! There’s even a few startling jabs that tavern culture in America suffers because people don’t hire hot barmaids (where is Ray going? I’m surrounded by hot female bartender friends?) and that women SHOULD be a sex object so men have something to miss. Women are discussed as old nags who are jealous of the third place, but if I were Mrs. O, I would be delighted if my husband would leave me the fuck alone. Oldenburg also dismisses homosexuality by claiming intimacy between men deletes any erotic feelings because there’s “no competition” and therefore refreshes men’s zest to get to a woman STAT after a night with the boys. I hate to break it to you, Ray, but some of those beloved bars you celebrate are GAY. Also kind of flabbergasted by the white washing in this book. People of color are never discussed, and all third place examples are heavily Anglo Saxon with a quick nod to Arabic coffeehouses before merrily skipping along. Lastly, I enjoy a drink, but Oldenburg is seemingly insulted with our culture moving away from alcohol dependency. My parents met at AA, but they had plenty of third places throughout their 26 year marriage—coffee shops, a deaf club, their church’s social nights…but Oldenburg gets frustrated even discussing coffeeshops not providing enough “social lubricants.” It’s frustrating. I really thought I would love this book because I do believe we need a Third Place. I just want one where I’m welcomed.
November 2, 2024
It took me a year to read it for a reason 😅
I honestly expected more. :/
There were plenty of detailed examples of different (albeit mostly European) cultures history with third places and their effects on society through time, even if these descriptions sometimes dragged in overburdening extraneous details. The discussions were often interesting and filled with astute observations on how the devaluing of community life has caused massive harm to the wellbeing of the individual and society as a whole. But the reader is not left with any hope or direction whatsoever in how they as an individual or community can help to remedy the degradation of third places.
Additionally, the blatant sexism and homophobia was frustrating and icky in the “The Sexes and Third Places” chapter - it was misogynistic to blame women being integrated into society more as they entered the work force and thus requiring men to step up as fathers and husband as the cause of men being isolated from their friends and their third places rather than the isolation that capitalism has forced single family units into individualist nonsense thus reducing stamina for socialization outside of work and home life. Additionally there was almost no discussion of women’s third places or how stay at home mothers/wives lacked “second” places at all. And there were weird classist and ageist attitudes that were hypocritical of the author’s proclamation of prioritization of community wellbeing as a whole which left some of the discussions to fall flat. Additionally, the book would’ve been bolstered by discussions on how community spaces need to accommodate more than just those like us. Community spaces without community care are exclusionary by their nature of those who often need it most.
I honestly expected more. :/
There were plenty of detailed examples of different (albeit mostly European) cultures history with third places and their effects on society through time, even if these descriptions sometimes dragged in overburdening extraneous details. The discussions were often interesting and filled with astute observations on how the devaluing of community life has caused massive harm to the wellbeing of the individual and society as a whole. But the reader is not left with any hope or direction whatsoever in how they as an individual or community can help to remedy the degradation of third places.
Additionally, the blatant sexism and homophobia was frustrating and icky in the “The Sexes and Third Places” chapter - it was misogynistic to blame women being integrated into society more as they entered the work force and thus requiring men to step up as fathers and husband as the cause of men being isolated from their friends and their third places rather than the isolation that capitalism has forced single family units into individualist nonsense thus reducing stamina for socialization outside of work and home life. Additionally there was almost no discussion of women’s third places or how stay at home mothers/wives lacked “second” places at all. And there were weird classist and ageist attitudes that were hypocritical of the author’s proclamation of prioritization of community wellbeing as a whole which left some of the discussions to fall flat. Additionally, the book would’ve been bolstered by discussions on how community spaces need to accommodate more than just those like us. Community spaces without community care are exclusionary by their nature of those who often need it most.
September 12, 2025
I read it because Mina Le's video essay on third places and epidemy of loneliness was fascinating and I wanted to engage academically with the topic.
I can only blame myself for reaching for a book written in 80s from a perspective of white American man and getting annoyed at how dated it felt. Oldenburg has some interesting observations - I definitely agree that we need community based solutions to problems of capitalism, rather than focusing solely on individual. It's not academically rigorous enough though, as Oldenburg keeps mixing his opinions with facts. You can't just say that something is true because you think it is in a nonfiction book. It is very male centric too, even though he makes some important observations about loneliness among housewives. And why all his third places ideas must be related to alcohol consumption? (he address it, but I still feel like that he could include at least one 'third place' that's not a version of pub)
I can only blame myself for reaching for a book written in 80s from a perspective of white American man and getting annoyed at how dated it felt. Oldenburg has some interesting observations - I definitely agree that we need community based solutions to problems of capitalism, rather than focusing solely on individual. It's not academically rigorous enough though, as Oldenburg keeps mixing his opinions with facts. You can't just say that something is true because you think it is in a nonfiction book. It is very male centric too, even though he makes some important observations about loneliness among housewives. And why all his third places ideas must be related to alcohol consumption? (he address it, but I still feel like that he could include at least one 'third place' that's not a version of pub)
abandoned
December 27, 2021" It is widely assumed that high levels of stress are an unavoidable condition of modern life, that these are built into the social system, and that one must get outside the system in order to gain relief... ... while Germans relax amid the rousing company of the bier garten or the French recuperate in their animated little bistros, Americans turn to massaging, meditating, jogging, hot-tubbing, or escape fiction..."
and other such gems.
The trouble is that this book is dated for 2021-22. "Dish-antennas" are the peak of entertainment technology that this book refers to. Online Social networks did not exist when this book was written and hence misses that perspective. On one hand, it amounts to pages of less consequential material, and on the second hand it raises interesting questions on the impact of online social networks and other such things that came about in the 21st century
and other such gems.
The trouble is that this book is dated for 2021-22. "Dish-antennas" are the peak of entertainment technology that this book refers to. Online Social networks did not exist when this book was written and hence misses that perspective. On one hand, it amounts to pages of less consequential material, and on the second hand it raises interesting questions on the impact of online social networks and other such things that came about in the 21st century
January 29, 2023
I think Ray is badass. It’s been 30 years and we still ain’t got shit going on in the semi-public realm of informal life. People will talk about third places now in a way that makes me unsure if they know for real what it’s all about, but if y’all wanna get serious, this book is the place to be. It goes way beyond just how cute it would be to have a corner cafe. We go from the pleasures of being able to sit in a restaurant booth to play cards during off-peak hours to the literal collapse of civilization. That’s why we have to fight what we’ve built, to break the cycle, to learn to love and learn from each other, free humanity, and bring balance to the force.
June 7, 2025
soms is het scary hoe goed problemen vroeger voorspelt zijn geweest, anyway frequent ur third places!!
December 1, 2022
I thought this book was super repetitive, most of what he was trying to say could’ve been broken up into a series of essays (not an entire book). Got bored and skimmed parts 2&3 but like overall the message was good. We need some community places in the US… that’s it that’s the gist.
Also kinda weird with how the places he talks about are mostly men’s spaces.
Also kinda weird with how the places he talks about are mostly men’s spaces.
May 4, 2016
In Our Oriental Heritage, Will Durant wrote that man is not willingly a political animal, that we do not love society so much as we fear solitude. As much as I love Durant's work -- the grandness of his historical approach and the rich eloquence of the language with which he expressed it -- here I must disagree with him. We are social creatures at our roots: to borrow from Augustine, we are made for each other, and our hearts are restless until we find companionship together. Such is the lesson of Roy Oldenburg’s magnificent The Great Good Place, which examines the important role of social centers in human lives, discusses the consequences of their decline in the United States today, attempts to account for why they are struggling, and appeals for their resurrection. It is a timely and momentous work.
I’ve long been tangentially familiar with the phrase, “the third place”, which refers to common gathering places for people in their communities, a place apart from home and work (the first and second places in our lives). But here is that phrase’s origin. Oldenburg begins by establishing what the third place is: a site that attracts people and allows for spontaneous meetings between friends and strangers. These places have been ubiquitous in urban environments throughout human history…at least, until the late 1940s when the United States decided to try a different approach to urban planning, creating ‘sprawls that no longer deserve the the dignity of of being called a city’*. Oldenburg’s opening chapters document the third place’s vital role in creating a sense of community, in fostering political cohesion and providing a platform for civic engagement. But not only that – they’re fun. People like to spend time together, and giving them a place to do it makes society better and improves our quality of life.After establishing this, Oldenburg then moves on some specific examples: English and Austrian coffee houses, French cafes and bistros, American taverns, and main streets. (Although the cover refers to barbershops and salons as third places, the best in his view have been these "watering holes".) This is a book strongly reminiscent of Robert Putnam's Bowling Alone: the Decline and Revival of American Community, but while Putnam examined the disintegration of American public life at large, Oldenburg zooms in to everyday life.
If the third place is so important, so vital to healthy personal and national life, how have we allowed ours to be destroyed? Hindsight is always perfect vision: in this case, third places are so normal to the human experience that we take them for granted, and only their loss makes us realize their importance. While third places can be destroyed by the short-sightedness of business owners who discourage "loitering" and convert attractive sitting places into yet more display areas, ultimately the problem is foundational: America's urban landscape is atrocious; "badly staged", in Oldenburg's words. Time and again he scolds planners for creating municipalities where no one can walk anywhere, of building pod after pod of "nothing neighborhoods", of abandoning the diverse density of cities for suburbia's lifeless homogeneity.
The Great Good Place is a fascinating combination of sociology and history with a lot of insight. The loss of third places goes beyond people not having a place to have a drink together. One of the consequences Oldenburg explores is that as community life fades as an alternative, people are forced to look for solace on their own, by attempting to buy happiness in the stores -- and the more they focus on themselves, the less inclined they are to seek connections with other people and the more miserable they are. The fascinating link between alienation and advertising is one of the many gems found in here.
Books like these are why I read in the first place. This isn't a subject of mere academic interest: this is a book that tells us something important about ourselves, with ideas that can change our lives and help Americans concerned about the United States' declining health begin to recover from it. Although the absence of any mention of the internet might date it (a book like this published today would have to address social networking sites), it's never more timely. Ten years after Oldenburg published this, the New Urbanism movement took off -- and reaffirming and reestablishing community life is at the heart of it. As America's urban pattern is forced to change in recognition of suburban's fiscal failure, I hope when we begin building we keep Oldenburg's insights in mind, and build third places.
I cannot recommend this highly enough.
Related:
Bowling Alone: the Decline and Revival of American Community, Robert Putnam
Suburban Nation, Andres Duany et. al
I’ve long been tangentially familiar with the phrase, “the third place”, which refers to common gathering places for people in their communities, a place apart from home and work (the first and second places in our lives). But here is that phrase’s origin. Oldenburg begins by establishing what the third place is: a site that attracts people and allows for spontaneous meetings between friends and strangers. These places have been ubiquitous in urban environments throughout human history…at least, until the late 1940s when the United States decided to try a different approach to urban planning, creating ‘sprawls that no longer deserve the the dignity of of being called a city’*. Oldenburg’s opening chapters document the third place’s vital role in creating a sense of community, in fostering political cohesion and providing a platform for civic engagement. But not only that – they’re fun. People like to spend time together, and giving them a place to do it makes society better and improves our quality of life.After establishing this, Oldenburg then moves on some specific examples: English and Austrian coffee houses, French cafes and bistros, American taverns, and main streets. (Although the cover refers to barbershops and salons as third places, the best in his view have been these "watering holes".) This is a book strongly reminiscent of Robert Putnam's Bowling Alone: the Decline and Revival of American Community, but while Putnam examined the disintegration of American public life at large, Oldenburg zooms in to everyday life.
If the third place is so important, so vital to healthy personal and national life, how have we allowed ours to be destroyed? Hindsight is always perfect vision: in this case, third places are so normal to the human experience that we take them for granted, and only their loss makes us realize their importance. While third places can be destroyed by the short-sightedness of business owners who discourage "loitering" and convert attractive sitting places into yet more display areas, ultimately the problem is foundational: America's urban landscape is atrocious; "badly staged", in Oldenburg's words. Time and again he scolds planners for creating municipalities where no one can walk anywhere, of building pod after pod of "nothing neighborhoods", of abandoning the diverse density of cities for suburbia's lifeless homogeneity.
The Great Good Place is a fascinating combination of sociology and history with a lot of insight. The loss of third places goes beyond people not having a place to have a drink together. One of the consequences Oldenburg explores is that as community life fades as an alternative, people are forced to look for solace on their own, by attempting to buy happiness in the stores -- and the more they focus on themselves, the less inclined they are to seek connections with other people and the more miserable they are. The fascinating link between alienation and advertising is one of the many gems found in here.
Books like these are why I read in the first place. This isn't a subject of mere academic interest: this is a book that tells us something important about ourselves, with ideas that can change our lives and help Americans concerned about the United States' declining health begin to recover from it. Although the absence of any mention of the internet might date it (a book like this published today would have to address social networking sites), it's never more timely. Ten years after Oldenburg published this, the New Urbanism movement took off -- and reaffirming and reestablishing community life is at the heart of it. As America's urban pattern is forced to change in recognition of suburban's fiscal failure, I hope when we begin building we keep Oldenburg's insights in mind, and build third places.
I cannot recommend this highly enough.
Related:
Bowling Alone: the Decline and Revival of American Community, Robert Putnam
Suburban Nation, Andres Duany et. al
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