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A dialogue
Then 47-year-old novelist James Baldwin is interviewed by 28-year-old poet Nikki Giovanni in a two-part presentation of WNET’s “SOUL!" Taped in London in 1971, the wide-ranging conversation explores Black life in America, the struggle for racial justice and evolving gender roles, while also offering insight into the work and artistic process of two literary icons.
112 pages, Paperback
First published January 1, 1971
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858 people want to read
About the author
James Baldwin
397 books17.1k followersLibrarian Note: There is more than one author in the Goodreads database with this name. See this thread for more information.
Works of American writer James Arthur Baldwin, outspoken critic of racism, include Go Tell It on the Mountain (1953), a novel, and Notes of a Native Son (1955), a collection of essays.
James Arthur Baldwin authored plays and poems in society.
He came as the eldest of nine children; his stepfather served as a minister. At 14 years of age in 1938, Baldwin preached at the small fireside Pentecostal church in Harlem. From religion in the early 1940s, he transferred his faith to literature with the still evident impassioned cadences of black churches. From 1948, Baldwin made his home primarily in the south of France but often returned to the United States of America to lecture or to teach.
In his Giovanni's Room, a white American expatriate must come to terms with his homosexuality. In 1957, he began spending half of each year in city of New York.
James Baldwin offered a vital literary voice during the era of civil rights activism in the 1950s and 1960s.
He first partially autobiographically accounted his youth. His influential Nobody Knows My Name and The Fire Next Time informed a large white audience. Another Country talks about gay sexual tensions among intellectuals of New York. Segments of the black nationalist community savaged his gay themes. Eldridge Cleaver of the Black Panthers stated the Baldwin displayed an "agonizing, total hatred of blacks." People produced Blues for Mister Charlie , play of Baldwin, in 1964. Huey Newton, co-founder of the Black Panther Party, defended Baldwin.
Going to Meet the Man and Tell Me How Long the Train's Been Gone provided powerful descriptions. He as an openly gay man increasingly in condemned discrimination against lesbian persons.
From stomach cancer, Baldwin died in Saint-Paul-de-Vence, France. People buried his body at the Ferncliff cemetery in Hartsdale near city of New York.
Works of American writer James Arthur Baldwin, outspoken critic of racism, include Go Tell It on the Mountain (1953), a novel, and Notes of a Native Son (1955), a collection of essays.
James Arthur Baldwin authored plays and poems in society.
He came as the eldest of nine children; his stepfather served as a minister. At 14 years of age in 1938, Baldwin preached at the small fireside Pentecostal church in Harlem. From religion in the early 1940s, he transferred his faith to literature with the still evident impassioned cadences of black churches. From 1948, Baldwin made his home primarily in the south of France but often returned to the United States of America to lecture or to teach.
In his Giovanni's Room, a white American expatriate must come to terms with his homosexuality. In 1957, he began spending half of each year in city of New York.
James Baldwin offered a vital literary voice during the era of civil rights activism in the 1950s and 1960s.
He first partially autobiographically accounted his youth. His influential Nobody Knows My Name and The Fire Next Time informed a large white audience. Another Country talks about gay sexual tensions among intellectuals of New York. Segments of the black nationalist community savaged his gay themes. Eldridge Cleaver of the Black Panthers stated the Baldwin displayed an "agonizing, total hatred of blacks." People produced Blues for Mister Charlie , play of Baldwin, in 1964. Huey Newton, co-founder of the Black Panther Party, defended Baldwin.
Going to Meet the Man and Tell Me How Long the Train's Been Gone provided powerful descriptions. He as an openly gay man increasingly in condemned discrimination against lesbian persons.
From stomach cancer, Baldwin died in Saint-Paul-de-Vence, France. People buried his body at the Ferncliff cemetery in Hartsdale near city of New York.
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April 20, 2025
Rest in Power, Nikki. June 7, 1943 – December 9, 2024
Rest in Power, Jimmy. August 2, 1924 – December 1, 1987
A Dialogue is a transcript of a taped conversation that James Baldwin and Nikki Giovanni held in 1971. The book is now out of print and impossible to find but you can still listen to the conversation on YouTube, I'd even recommend watching the video over reading the book, as the book leaves out certain passages, e.g. the now famous "Lie to me" passage that made this conversation go viral on social media in our day and age.
In this conversation, the then 28-year-old Nikki Giovanni and 47-year-old James Baldwin try to figure out why and how the gap between Black men and Black women grew so vast. They both argue from different perspectives. Nikki as a woman, Jimmy as a man. Nikki as a representation of the younger generation, Baldwin of the older generation. It's fascinating because they bud heads many times—mainly because Nikki is very self-assured and strong in her sometimes radical beliefs—but they manage to reach common ground. The mutual respect and love between these two is what makes this conversation stand out years later.
Their main point of dissent stems from the fact that Nikki is disappointed in Black men, and how they've let down Black women over the past decades. Nikki, apparently, grew up in an abusive household and seeing her father brutalise her mother deeply affected her. She says: "He knows that he is not being treated [at work] with the respect due to him as a person, as a Black man. In order to get that together, when he comes into the house he begins to brutalize my mother. Which becomes a strange phenomenon to me because I don't like white people and I'm afraid of Black men." It's a powerful admission, and a frightening. And unfortunately one that many Black women in our day and age would still echo.
Baldwin tries to explain that "When a man's sexuality is gone, his possibility, his hope, of loving is also gone." and that "A man comes home; he's in a situation which he cannot control. He is a human being; it's got to come out somewhere." But don't get it twisted, Baldwin doesn't want to defend the abuse, he just wants to penetrate its source: "It may be wrong, of course it's wrong, but we're dealing with human beings, you know. One cannot be romantic about human nature; one cannot be romantic about one's own nature." I still don't find his argumentation that strong. Sure, it's got to come out "somewhere", I would personally agree with that; but why does it have to come out at the person that's closest to you? Why doesn't it come out at your boss or society in general?
And so Nikki laments: "[Black men] are not lovable, they're not giving any love. They couldn't give a damn about me. And that's unfortunate, because I need love." She doesn't understand why Black men leave their women if they cannot provide for them: "Maybelle doesn't need a crib. The baby's going to sleep someplace. The baby's going to eat something. But what Maybelle needs at that moment is a man. [...] Maybelle understands there is no job. But what she needs is a man to come by and say, Hey baby, you look good. And Black men refuse to function like that because they say, I want to bring the crib when I come. You're never going to get the crib. Bring yourself." As a woman I understand Nikki's line of thinking. Leaving your family because you seemingly cannot provide for them is a cowardly one, and one that men can easily hide behind. Showing up and being present but being unable to provide "a crib" is obviously better than never showing up and still being unable to provide anything. It shouldn't be that hard to understand.
And Jimmy says that he does understand this. But that Nikki is only right from her point of view. And Jimmy wants her to understand the man's point of view as well: "In this civilisation a man who cannot support his wife and child is not a man. [...] You can blame him on a human level if you like, but I think it's more interesting to try to understand it, the bag the cat is in." Again, I might understand a man's desire to "be a man" but I think we as a society need to change what that means. I personally don't subscribe to the assumption that being a man equals being the sole provider of your family.
And Nikki sums up her frustrations, and the frustrations many Black women share, poignantly: "We have our dashikis and your hair is growing, but you're still trying to be little white men. It doesn't work." She's got a point, what can I say.
Before we move on to the other topics these two cover in this conversation, I need to quote the "Lie to me" passage in full because it was sadly cut from the written transcript (dear editors, why????), and I couldn't find a text version of it anywhere online. To me, this is one of the most powerful examples of two generations truly listening to and reckoning with one another:
The two, of course, touch on race a lot. And Jimmy says that "what the world does to you, if the world does it to you long enough and effectively enough, you begin to do to yourself. [...] you can hardly move by the time you're fourteen." He says you can only break free as a Black person (living in the US) "...when you begin to realize all of that, which is not easy, that you begin to break out of the culture which has produced you and discover the culture which really produced you."
Nikki, on the other hand, is mainly concerned with the question of power: "I would like—I would sell my soul—You know what I mean? What does it profit a man to gain the world and lose his soul? The world! You know what I mean? The world. That's what it profits him." She closes: "You can have Jesus but give me the world." Which is a bold statement and one that Jimmy, though having his problems with the Church in his own way, can't subscribe to fully. He stresses the importance of the Church for Black people, being one of the only places in which Black men can cry and let their emotions run free, being one of the few places they can gather and organize in public, though he also condemns the Church as an institution. Another interesting exchange between the two goes as follows:
Some other of my favorite passages include Jimmy explaining the problems with cops ("Yeah, and he may be a very nice man. But I haven't got the time to figure that out. All I know is, he's got a uniform and a gun and I have to relate to him that way. That's the only way to relate to him because one of us may have to die." — he's spot on and most Black men in the US would second his statement today), him retelling the story of how Lorraine gagged Bobby Kennedy (he really tells that story any chance he gets, like, it's a core memory for him. She loved our girl. Lorraine truly was the one, hun!) and him saying that he has disregarded his own generation altogether and is looking at young folks for the solution. I also love when he says: "But, baby, it takes people a very long time to learn very little." Because, hot damn, he's right.
One really powerful moment is when Jimmy says that "Well, as a Black man I've paid too much for America to be able to abandon it." and says that his father and his father's father all also certainly paid too much for it, and Nikki interjects: "Hell, I've paid too much for it. And I'm only 28."
Toward the end they talk a lot about the duties of an artist and they also touch on literary criticism, a topic, as you might imagine, that I find hella fascinating. Jimmy says: "No white critic can judge my work. I'd be a fool if I dependent on that judgement." And Nikki agrees with him. Gagged me a bit, not gonna lie. Good stuff. Toni echoes that sentiment in her interviews as well. So if the trifecta of brilliant African American writers says so, who are you to disagree?
There is so much that readers (or viewers) can take from this rich conversation. Ida Lewis puts it so brilliantly in her introduction: "Jimmy and Nikki are a cornerstone. The next brick is yours. You can hurl it or you can put it in place." I think imma hurl it but what you do is up to you. <3
Rest in Power, Jimmy. August 2, 1924 – December 1, 1987
A Dialogue is a transcript of a taped conversation that James Baldwin and Nikki Giovanni held in 1971. The book is now out of print and impossible to find but you can still listen to the conversation on YouTube, I'd even recommend watching the video over reading the book, as the book leaves out certain passages, e.g. the now famous "Lie to me" passage that made this conversation go viral on social media in our day and age.
In this conversation, the then 28-year-old Nikki Giovanni and 47-year-old James Baldwin try to figure out why and how the gap between Black men and Black women grew so vast. They both argue from different perspectives. Nikki as a woman, Jimmy as a man. Nikki as a representation of the younger generation, Baldwin of the older generation. It's fascinating because they bud heads many times—mainly because Nikki is very self-assured and strong in her sometimes radical beliefs—but they manage to reach common ground. The mutual respect and love between these two is what makes this conversation stand out years later.
Their main point of dissent stems from the fact that Nikki is disappointed in Black men, and how they've let down Black women over the past decades. Nikki, apparently, grew up in an abusive household and seeing her father brutalise her mother deeply affected her. She says: "He knows that he is not being treated [at work] with the respect due to him as a person, as a Black man. In order to get that together, when he comes into the house he begins to brutalize my mother. Which becomes a strange phenomenon to me because I don't like white people and I'm afraid of Black men." It's a powerful admission, and a frightening. And unfortunately one that many Black women in our day and age would still echo.
Baldwin tries to explain that "When a man's sexuality is gone, his possibility, his hope, of loving is also gone." and that "A man comes home; he's in a situation which he cannot control. He is a human being; it's got to come out somewhere." But don't get it twisted, Baldwin doesn't want to defend the abuse, he just wants to penetrate its source: "It may be wrong, of course it's wrong, but we're dealing with human beings, you know. One cannot be romantic about human nature; one cannot be romantic about one's own nature." I still don't find his argumentation that strong. Sure, it's got to come out "somewhere", I would personally agree with that; but why does it have to come out at the person that's closest to you? Why doesn't it come out at your boss or society in general?
And so Nikki laments: "[Black men] are not lovable, they're not giving any love. They couldn't give a damn about me. And that's unfortunate, because I need love." She doesn't understand why Black men leave their women if they cannot provide for them: "Maybelle doesn't need a crib. The baby's going to sleep someplace. The baby's going to eat something. But what Maybelle needs at that moment is a man. [...] Maybelle understands there is no job. But what she needs is a man to come by and say, Hey baby, you look good. And Black men refuse to function like that because they say, I want to bring the crib when I come. You're never going to get the crib. Bring yourself." As a woman I understand Nikki's line of thinking. Leaving your family because you seemingly cannot provide for them is a cowardly one, and one that men can easily hide behind. Showing up and being present but being unable to provide "a crib" is obviously better than never showing up and still being unable to provide anything. It shouldn't be that hard to understand.
And Jimmy says that he does understand this. But that Nikki is only right from her point of view. And Jimmy wants her to understand the man's point of view as well: "In this civilisation a man who cannot support his wife and child is not a man. [...] You can blame him on a human level if you like, but I think it's more interesting to try to understand it, the bag the cat is in." Again, I might understand a man's desire to "be a man" but I think we as a society need to change what that means. I personally don't subscribe to the assumption that being a man equals being the sole provider of your family.
And Nikki sums up her frustrations, and the frustrations many Black women share, poignantly: "We have our dashikis and your hair is growing, but you're still trying to be little white men. It doesn't work." She's got a point, what can I say.
Before we move on to the other topics these two cover in this conversation, I need to quote the "Lie to me" passage in full because it was sadly cut from the written transcript (dear editors, why????), and I couldn't find a text version of it anywhere online. To me, this is one of the most powerful examples of two generations truly listening to and reckoning with one another:
Giovanni: Okay. That's all that's gonna work. It takes two people to have a relationship. If you don't have a dream, fake it.If you watch the video you can see how taken aback Jimmy is by Nikki's words. He's so impressed with her, it's adorable.
Baldwin: You can't fake a dream.
Giovanni: You got to fake it. Because we don't got dreams these days. How the hell can you have a dream? For what? Everybody's jiving, so let's jive on that level.
Baldwin: If I love you, I can't lie to you.
Giovanni: Of course you can lie to me. And you will. If you love me and you're going off with Maddy some place, you're lying to me. Cause what the hell do I care about the truth? I care if you were there. What Billy Holiday say: “Hush now, don't explain.”
Baldwin: All right, I accept that.
Giovanni: Of course. Of course you lie to me. And I don't even wanna — what does the truth matter? And why you gon' be truthful with me when you lie to everybody else? You lied when you smiled at that cracker down the job, right? Lie to me. Smile. Treat me the same way you would treat him.
Baldwin: I can't treat you the—
Giovanni: You must. You must. Because I've caught the frowns and the anger. He's happy with you. Of course he doesn't know you're unhappy, you credit at him all day long. You come home and I catch you. Because I love you, I get least of you. I get the very minimum. And I'm saying, you know, fake it with me. Is that too much of the Black woman to ask of the Black man?
The two, of course, touch on race a lot. And Jimmy says that "what the world does to you, if the world does it to you long enough and effectively enough, you begin to do to yourself. [...] you can hardly move by the time you're fourteen." He says you can only break free as a Black person (living in the US) "...when you begin to realize all of that, which is not easy, that you begin to break out of the culture which has produced you and discover the culture which really produced you."
Nikki, on the other hand, is mainly concerned with the question of power: "I would like—I would sell my soul—You know what I mean? What does it profit a man to gain the world and lose his soul? The world! You know what I mean? The world. That's what it profits him." She closes: "You can have Jesus but give me the world." Which is a bold statement and one that Jimmy, though having his problems with the Church in his own way, can't subscribe to fully. He stresses the importance of the Church for Black people, being one of the only places in which Black men can cry and let their emotions run free, being one of the few places they can gather and organize in public, though he also condemns the Church as an institution. Another interesting exchange between the two goes as follows:
Giovanni: I think one of the nicest things that we created as a generation was just the fact that we could say, Hey, I don't like white people.I find it so wonderful and empowering that these two brilliant Black thinkers are able to bounce off one another so nicely. In general, it's interesting to see how in tune these two are, despite having their differences.
Baldwin: It's a great liberation.
Giovanni: It was the beginning, of course, of being able to like them.
Baldwin: Exactly.
Giovanni: Which, of course, upsets them but that's their problem.
Some other of my favorite passages include Jimmy explaining the problems with cops ("Yeah, and he may be a very nice man. But I haven't got the time to figure that out. All I know is, he's got a uniform and a gun and I have to relate to him that way. That's the only way to relate to him because one of us may have to die." — he's spot on and most Black men in the US would second his statement today), him retelling the story of how Lorraine gagged Bobby Kennedy (he really tells that story any chance he gets, like, it's a core memory for him. She loved our girl. Lorraine truly was the one, hun!) and him saying that he has disregarded his own generation altogether and is looking at young folks for the solution. I also love when he says: "But, baby, it takes people a very long time to learn very little." Because, hot damn, he's right.
One really powerful moment is when Jimmy says that "Well, as a Black man I've paid too much for America to be able to abandon it." and says that his father and his father's father all also certainly paid too much for it, and Nikki interjects: "Hell, I've paid too much for it. And I'm only 28."
Toward the end they talk a lot about the duties of an artist and they also touch on literary criticism, a topic, as you might imagine, that I find hella fascinating. Jimmy says: "No white critic can judge my work. I'd be a fool if I dependent on that judgement." And Nikki agrees with him. Gagged me a bit, not gonna lie. Good stuff. Toni echoes that sentiment in her interviews as well. So if the trifecta of brilliant African American writers says so, who are you to disagree?
There is so much that readers (or viewers) can take from this rich conversation. Ida Lewis puts it so brilliantly in her introduction: "Jimmy and Nikki are a cornerstone. The next brick is yours. You can hurl it or you can put it in place." I think imma hurl it but what you do is up to you. <3
December 12, 2024
5 stars
"It may be wrong, of course it’s wrong, but we’re dealing with human beings, you know. One cannot be romantic about human nature; one cannot be romantic for one’s own nature."
I'm going to be mulling over this for months, the discussion on intersectionality within the black community and how even Baldwin himself is not above criticism was fascinating. No matter how much has changed in society, nothing has changed. RIP to two brilliant minds.
"It may be wrong, of course it’s wrong, but we’re dealing with human beings, you know. One cannot be romantic about human nature; one cannot be romantic for one’s own nature."
I'm going to be mulling over this for months, the discussion on intersectionality within the black community and how even Baldwin himself is not above criticism was fascinating. No matter how much has changed in society, nothing has changed. RIP to two brilliant minds.
July 5, 2018
This dialogue is so layered with leaping brilliance and powerful observations that it feels like a crystalline oasis in the contemporary desert of media static. The conversation beautifully highlights the differences of perspective between Baldwin and Giovanni, in both their gendered and generational experience (at the time Giovanni was 28 and Baldwin 49). The conversation also happens to contain the best thinking I've read on the current racial problems in the United States, even though it took place over 40 years ago ... Some pages have so many pithy and powerful observations exchanged in short bursts, it's astounding to realize these two were just riffing in real-time, off the cuff. If you can get your hands on this hard-to-find book, I would consider it a must read.
June 30, 2016
This transcript of an hour long conversation between Baldwin and Giovanni gave me much to think about. Baldwin speaks with perfect candor about race relations in the US and why he decided to stay in France yet retain his American identity (and citizenship). Giovanni keeps up with him: celebrating, clarifying, refining, challenging, and rejecting Baldwin when his comments do not seem to include or consider the plight of black women in America. That this conversation even happened warms my heart; that this conversation was transcribed and preserved is a miracle. We need a new edition.
December 12, 2024
It’s insane that these conversations are still relevant today. Everything mentioned still rings true in America (and in other places I’m sure). This took place in the 70s and it’s been 50 years and we still have learned next to nothing. I’m in awe that this is an interview that’s been transcribed into a book, they speak so eloquently and talk about so many important conversations in the span of what, an hour? They touch on intersectionality, history, religion, police brutality, politics, sexuality and love. It’s all relevant today just the same as it was then. I also like that Baldwin and Giovanni had disagreements, each were able to take in what the other was saying even if they didn’t see eye to eye. I watched clips of this ages ago and never connected that this is a transcription until I read some of the quotes and put two and two together. I do think, that if you’re curious and love both of their respective works, you should either watch this interview or read it.
Quotes I personally liked:
Giovanni: Well, white people really deal more with God and black people more with Jesus.
Baldwin: No, they don’t even deal with God. God for them seems to be a metaphor for purity and safety.
Baldwin: One cannot be romantic about human nature; one cannot be romantic about one’s own nature.
Baldwin: Life is very short and it’s a very long time.
Baldwin: You go through life for a long time thinking, No one has ever suffered the way I’ve suffered, my God, my God. And then you realize- You read something or you hear something, and you realize that your suffering does not isolate you; your suffering is your bridge. Many people have suffered before you, many people are suffering around you and always will, and all you can do is bring, hopefully, a little light into that suffering.
Baldwin: Because the responsibility of a writer is to excavate the experience of the people who produced him. The act of writing is the intention of it; the root of it is liberation.
Baldwin: White people invented black people to give white people identity.
Baldwin: …They’re as alone as you are.
Giovanni: Because that becomes a responsibility, doesn’t it?
Baldwin: Well, it’s called love, you know.
Giovanni: We agree. Love is a tremendous responsibility.
Baldwin: It’s the only one to take, there isn’t any other.
Quotes I personally liked:
Giovanni: Well, white people really deal more with God and black people more with Jesus.
Baldwin: No, they don’t even deal with God. God for them seems to be a metaphor for purity and safety.
Baldwin: One cannot be romantic about human nature; one cannot be romantic about one’s own nature.
Baldwin: Life is very short and it’s a very long time.
Baldwin: You go through life for a long time thinking, No one has ever suffered the way I’ve suffered, my God, my God. And then you realize- You read something or you hear something, and you realize that your suffering does not isolate you; your suffering is your bridge. Many people have suffered before you, many people are suffering around you and always will, and all you can do is bring, hopefully, a little light into that suffering.
Baldwin: Because the responsibility of a writer is to excavate the experience of the people who produced him. The act of writing is the intention of it; the root of it is liberation.
Baldwin: White people invented black people to give white people identity.
Baldwin: …They’re as alone as you are.
Giovanni: Because that becomes a responsibility, doesn’t it?
Baldwin: Well, it’s called love, you know.
Giovanni: We agree. Love is a tremendous responsibility.
Baldwin: It’s the only one to take, there isn’t any other.
Read
July 20, 2023these are transcriptions... from an interview... their eloquence is truly mind-boggling... saw parts of the interview in the nikki giovanni doc...
December 25, 2022
FAVORITE INTERVIEW EVER.
June 28, 2021
Two brilliant people having a conversation in 1971 that’s still relevant. I watched this - this book is a transcript - their conversation was part of the PBS series Soul! which is available to watch now on various platforms.
January 16, 2008
so so hard to find but worth every minute of searching. if you want to sit in on a conversation with two of the greatest american writers, read this.
June 17, 2022
The generational exchange recorded between Baldwin and Giovanni is striking and valuable.
The dialog begins with Giovanni asking Baldwin a question about moving to Europe, and, for the most part, she is responsible for refocusing and restructuring their talk along the way. Near the beginning, I felt that she was prioritizing what Baldwin had to say, and we mainly observe the dynamic of a younger person interviewing a revered elder. They are largely in agreement, and the reader witnesses a pleasant back-and-forth between individuals who possess affection, admiration, and respect for one another.
As they continue speaking, they hit one or two points of contention, specifically surrounding the topic of black masculinity in the context of modern America. For me, this was the most powerful and personal part of their discussion. Reviewing the sections of the text that I underlined, I found them all to be from Giovanni, as she challenges Baldwin’s assertions in defense of black men. Of course, there are valid points on each side of the debate, which is what makes it even more impactful.
I am quoting a couple of sections here, to present what I view as the heart of their dialog.
Directly prior to the beginning of this next section, Baldwin describes how the black man in America has been denied entry into the predominate culture’s hierarchy of masculinity. The result has been the wholesale forfeiture of their sexuality and the destruction of their ability to express love in healthy and fulfilling ways.
Baldwin: … When a man’s sexuality is gone, his possibility, his hope, of loving is also gone.
Giovanni: He has no way to express—or he has only limited ways to express—love.
Baldwin: He has absolutely no floor on which to dance, no room in which to move, no way to get from one day to the next … Love is a journey two people have to make with each other.
Giovanni: But why do black men, why do we, allow this to happen?
Baldwin: Look, when one begins to talk about . . . When I begin to talk about the situation of black men with anyone under fifty I’ve got to avoid sounding in any way defensive. I don’t mean that I think you’re attacking me. But you asked me a question which I want to answer as honestly as I can, and in order to do so I have to look back over my entire life." . . .
At this point, Baldwin describes the experience of his father, as seen through his eyes:
“… Your manhood is being slowly destroyed hour by hour, day by day. Your woman’s watching it; you’re watching her watch it. The love that you have for each other is being destroyed hour by hour and day by day. It’s not her fault, it’s not your fault, but there it goes because the pressures under which you live are inhuman. My father finally went mad, and when I became a man I understood how that could happen … But it’s not your father’s fault and it’s not your fault; it’s the fault of the people who hold the power because they have deliberately trained your father to be a slave, and they have deliberately calculated that if he is a slave you will be a slave …”
In response, Giovanni identifies that, for this “syndrome” to arise, men must also buy into what we now refer to as hegemonic masculinity. She remarks that, “you’re still trying to be little white men”, and it doesn’t work. Effectively, she argues that the black men need to choose their families over the distractions of mainstream society’s superficial power structure:
“You have to decide who you are going to smile at. Job or no job. Future or no future. ‘Cause all those reasons you give me for your actions don’t make sense if I can’t enjoy you. I think men are very different from women. But I think men build their standards on false rationales. The question is: What makes a man? The question is: Can you be a man where you are and whatever the circumstances?”
---
But, still, if I had to condense it down further, I would choose these few lines:
Giovanni: … But I’ve seen so many people get so hung up in such crappy, superficial kinds of things that, for lack of being able to bring a steak in the house, they won’t come. I can get my own damn steak.
Baldwin: Nikki—
Giovanni: I need you.
Baldwin: But Nikki—
Giovanni: And that to me is what the black man has—
Baldwin: Nikki, you’re perfectly right but you’re also being perfectly rational.
The dialog begins with Giovanni asking Baldwin a question about moving to Europe, and, for the most part, she is responsible for refocusing and restructuring their talk along the way. Near the beginning, I felt that she was prioritizing what Baldwin had to say, and we mainly observe the dynamic of a younger person interviewing a revered elder. They are largely in agreement, and the reader witnesses a pleasant back-and-forth between individuals who possess affection, admiration, and respect for one another.
As they continue speaking, they hit one or two points of contention, specifically surrounding the topic of black masculinity in the context of modern America. For me, this was the most powerful and personal part of their discussion. Reviewing the sections of the text that I underlined, I found them all to be from Giovanni, as she challenges Baldwin’s assertions in defense of black men. Of course, there are valid points on each side of the debate, which is what makes it even more impactful.
I am quoting a couple of sections here, to present what I view as the heart of their dialog.
Directly prior to the beginning of this next section, Baldwin describes how the black man in America has been denied entry into the predominate culture’s hierarchy of masculinity. The result has been the wholesale forfeiture of their sexuality and the destruction of their ability to express love in healthy and fulfilling ways.
Baldwin: … When a man’s sexuality is gone, his possibility, his hope, of loving is also gone.
Giovanni: He has no way to express—or he has only limited ways to express—love.
Baldwin: He has absolutely no floor on which to dance, no room in which to move, no way to get from one day to the next … Love is a journey two people have to make with each other.
Giovanni: But why do black men, why do we, allow this to happen?
Baldwin: Look, when one begins to talk about . . . When I begin to talk about the situation of black men with anyone under fifty I’ve got to avoid sounding in any way defensive. I don’t mean that I think you’re attacking me. But you asked me a question which I want to answer as honestly as I can, and in order to do so I have to look back over my entire life." . . .
At this point, Baldwin describes the experience of his father, as seen through his eyes:
“… Your manhood is being slowly destroyed hour by hour, day by day. Your woman’s watching it; you’re watching her watch it. The love that you have for each other is being destroyed hour by hour and day by day. It’s not her fault, it’s not your fault, but there it goes because the pressures under which you live are inhuman. My father finally went mad, and when I became a man I understood how that could happen … But it’s not your father’s fault and it’s not your fault; it’s the fault of the people who hold the power because they have deliberately trained your father to be a slave, and they have deliberately calculated that if he is a slave you will be a slave …”
In response, Giovanni identifies that, for this “syndrome” to arise, men must also buy into what we now refer to as hegemonic masculinity. She remarks that, “you’re still trying to be little white men”, and it doesn’t work. Effectively, she argues that the black men need to choose their families over the distractions of mainstream society’s superficial power structure:
“You have to decide who you are going to smile at. Job or no job. Future or no future. ‘Cause all those reasons you give me for your actions don’t make sense if I can’t enjoy you. I think men are very different from women. But I think men build their standards on false rationales. The question is: What makes a man? The question is: Can you be a man where you are and whatever the circumstances?”
---
But, still, if I had to condense it down further, I would choose these few lines:
Giovanni: … But I’ve seen so many people get so hung up in such crappy, superficial kinds of things that, for lack of being able to bring a steak in the house, they won’t come. I can get my own damn steak.
Baldwin: Nikki—
Giovanni: I need you.
Baldwin: But Nikki—
Giovanni: And that to me is what the black man has—
Baldwin: Nikki, you’re perfectly right but you’re also being perfectly rational.
May 2, 2021
a review to commemorate the first interview transcript to draw tears from me:
giovanni as a poet understands joy better than any poet i can think of, and so to see giovanni the woman hurting the way we do here -- it feels like a tear through the fabric of what is right. and baldwin, who understands pain like the back of his hand -- baldwin shines light on the dark wound of this dialogue. the humility between them as they think of one another and the world is endless, like the sea. there is friction between their thought, between their generations and their moral codes and their understandings of what a person is. the divides are rich and wide enough to rip you in half. nikki speaks and you think, yes, and james speaks, and you think, yes. beautiful meditations on writing, on duty, on pain, and on children. glowing with brilliance. all five stars.
giovanni as a poet understands joy better than any poet i can think of, and so to see giovanni the woman hurting the way we do here -- it feels like a tear through the fabric of what is right. and baldwin, who understands pain like the back of his hand -- baldwin shines light on the dark wound of this dialogue. the humility between them as they think of one another and the world is endless, like the sea. there is friction between their thought, between their generations and their moral codes and their understandings of what a person is. the divides are rich and wide enough to rip you in half. nikki speaks and you think, yes, and james speaks, and you think, yes. beautiful meditations on writing, on duty, on pain, and on children. glowing with brilliance. all five stars.
February 16, 2021
A powerful edited transcript, in book form, of the Philadelphia Public Television current affairs program Soul! recorded in 1971. Giovanni and Baldwin talk about race, gender roles, literature, and more for nearly two hours. The book contains a short prefatory essay by Ida Lewis and an Afterword from Orde Coombs.
The video of the two episodes are available on YouTube, and is clarifying — it’s worth tracking down — of the few moments that are elided in the authors talking over each other, and revealing in the facial and physical expressions that are obvious to the viewer and in effect make clear some of the omissions, via physical communication, that the book doesn’t capture.
A wide ranging dialogue that include many illuminating moments like this:
“Giovanni: … I think that one of the nicest things that we created as a generation was just the fact that we could say, Hey, I don’t like white people.
Baldwin: That’s a great liberation.
Giovanni: It was the beginning, of course, of being able to like them.
Baldwin: Exactly.”
Ebook, 02/12/21.
The video of the two episodes are available on YouTube, and is clarifying — it’s worth tracking down — of the few moments that are elided in the authors talking over each other, and revealing in the facial and physical expressions that are obvious to the viewer and in effect make clear some of the omissions, via physical communication, that the book doesn’t capture.
A wide ranging dialogue that include many illuminating moments like this:
“Giovanni: … I think that one of the nicest things that we created as a generation was just the fact that we could say, Hey, I don’t like white people.
Baldwin: That’s a great liberation.
Giovanni: It was the beginning, of course, of being able to like them.
Baldwin: Exactly.”
Ebook, 02/12/21.
November 21, 2025
This conversation…I am obsessed. I watched the full two hour video for my class and also read the transcript so I could make better notes. I went into this to learn more about James Baldwin as an author and how he presents himself in a dialogue. However, Nikki Giovanni completely stole the scene for me. I had to keep reminding myself that my notes were meant to be on Baldwin and not her. I find her absolutely fascinating and I really want to read her work now. So let me know if you have any recommendations! Overall, I think this dialogue is such an important piece of history. It is so wonderful to see two writers in such a deep discussion like this, where they can push at eachother’s thoughts and ideas.
Read
August 11, 2025"And then you realize- You read something or you hear something, and you realize that your suffering does not isolate you; your suffering is your bridge. Many people have suffered before you, many people are suffering around you and always will, and all you can do is bring, hopefully, a little light into that suffering. Enough light so that the person who is suffering can begin to comprehend his suffering and begin to live with it and begin to change it, change the situation. We don't change anything; all we can do is invest people with the morale to change it for themselves." - James Baldwin
October 22, 2017
You have somehow to begin to break out of all of that and try to become yourself. It’s hard for anybody, but it’s very hard if you’re born black in a white society. Hard, because you’ve got to divorce yourself form the standards of that society.
The danger of your generation, if I may say so … is to substitute one romanticism for another. Because these categories — to put it simply but with a certain brutal truth — these categories are commercial categories.
The danger of your generation, if I may say so … is to substitute one romanticism for another. Because these categories — to put it simply but with a certain brutal truth — these categories are commercial categories.
October 13, 2020
BALDWIN: Of course. But, baby, it takes people a very
long time to learn very little. If you consider
your own life, if I consider my life, when I
think how little I've learned in, after all, a
fairly long time, and what it has cost me to
learn whatever I've learned, and then face
whatever it is I've learned, and then act on it,
it takes a long time.
long time to learn very little. If you consider
your own life, if I consider my life, when I
think how little I've learned in, after all, a
fairly long time, and what it has cost me to
learn whatever I've learned, and then face
whatever it is I've learned, and then act on it,
it takes a long time.
February 12, 2025
This passage hit me like a fucking truck. “Your manhood is being slowly destroyed hour by hour, day by day. Your woman’s watching it; you’re watching her watch it. The love that you have for each other is being destroyed hour by hour day by day. It’s not her fault, it’s not your fault, but there it goes because the pressures under which you live are inhuman.”
This entire review has been hidden because of spoilers.
July 20, 2025
Yes, this is the famous interview from which we often see many video clips from. It was really nice to finally read the transcripts.
I found their discussion on religion fascinating. But also Nikki Giovanni calling out James Baldwin’s glaring misogyny. Those parts were so frustrating because, as brilliant as Baldwin is as far as this conversation is concerned, it never clicked for him.
I found their discussion on religion fascinating. But also Nikki Giovanni calling out James Baldwin’s glaring misogyny. Those parts were so frustrating because, as brilliant as Baldwin is as far as this conversation is concerned, it never clicked for him.
June 6, 2020
Interesting information, just really not my style of writing. I'm excited to explore more of Baldwin's work! I would still recommend this book, and say it's worth the read, and its a pretty quick read.
June 29, 2021
i learned so much about james baldwin and his perspective (and obviously nikki's though i think i had her perspective more figured out than his). wonderful conversation–they say so much we already know but in such beautiful ways. definitely pair this with the youtube video!
June 7, 2024
Twitter sound-bytes brought me here, but the conversation immediately pulled me in and kept me. For me, this dialogue feels like being at the dinner table while listening to your two smartest friends philosophize on race, relationships, and gender.
July 12, 2024
This book contains so many layers of excellent discourse between Giovanni and Baldwin. Many of the topics discussed are still relevant today, 53 years later. A great read for everyone if change is to be made, especially in the Black community.
February 12, 2017
After watching Raoul Peck's documentary "I Am Not Your Negro," which is a composition of a 30 page manuscript written by James Baldwin and existing video clips, I was inspired to read whatever I could get my hands on immediately by James Baldwin.
There are so many quotes I loved (below). I love Baldwin's ability to clearly and eloquently state, the underpinnings of the social construct of race and how it relates to the individual. He is, in many ways, a Stoic. He is also an optimist! He believes in the power to expand an individual's mind, despite everything they have been conditioned to believe, in the hopes of achieving social progress.
I thought this interview was very interesting because Nikki Giovanni, the interviewer, starts to push him on gender relations. Despite all of Baldwin's intelligence, he prioritizes the black man and his quest for power and self-respect through the ability to provide over family bonds. I found this surprising, given that much of what Baldwin says resonates with me as a female in a male-dominated industry. It did not change my opinion of Baldwin, but it made me think more about survival, love, identity and class.
============== Quotes (= Spoilers?) ==============
Baldwin: You know, it's not the world that was my oppressor, because what the world does to you, if the world does it to you long enough and effectively enough, you begin to do to yourself. You become a collaborator, an accomplice of your own murderers, because you believe the same things they do. They think it's important to be white and you think it's important to be white; they think it's a shame to be black and you think it's a shame to be black. And you have no corroboration around you of any other sense of life. All the corroboration around you is in terms of the white majority standards---so deplorable they frighten you to death. You don't eat watermelon; you get so rigid you can't dance; you can hardly move by the time you're fourteen. You're always scrubbed and shining, a parody of God-knows-what because no white person has ever been as clean as you have been forced to become.
Baldwin: Look, the very first thing a writer has to face is that he cannot be told what to write. You know, nobody asked me to be a writer; I chose it. Well, since I'm a mad I have to assume I chose it; perhaps, in fact, I didn't choose it. But in any case, the one thing you have to do is try to tell the truth. And what everyone overlooks is that in order to do it---when the book comes out it may hurt you ---but in order for me to do it, it had to hurt me first. I can only tell you about yourself as much as I can face about myself. And this has happened to everybody who's tried to live. You go through life for a long time thinking, No one has ever suffered the way I've suffered, my God, my God. And then you realize---You read something or you hear something, and you realize that your suffering does not isolate you; your suffering is your bridge. Many people have suffered before you, many people are suffering around you and always will, and all you can do is bring, hopefully, a little light into that suffering. Enough life so that the person who is suffering can begin to comprehend his suffering and begin to live with it and begin to change it, change the situation. We don't change anything; all we can do is invest people with the morale to change it for themselves.
Baldwin: The artist is not free to do what he wants to do; the artist is free to do what he has to do.
Baldwin: People invent categories in order to feel safe. White people invented black people to give white people identity. Straight cats invent faggots so they can sleep with them without becoming faggots themselves.
Baldwin: If you're a writer you are forced to look behind the word into the meaning of the word...[Y]ou're responsible for what that word means, so you have to find the way to use that word to liberate the energy in that word, so it has a positive effect on the lives of people. There is such a thing as the living word. And that's not a mystical statement.
There are so many quotes I loved (below). I love Baldwin's ability to clearly and eloquently state, the underpinnings of the social construct of race and how it relates to the individual. He is, in many ways, a Stoic. He is also an optimist! He believes in the power to expand an individual's mind, despite everything they have been conditioned to believe, in the hopes of achieving social progress.
I thought this interview was very interesting because Nikki Giovanni, the interviewer, starts to push him on gender relations. Despite all of Baldwin's intelligence, he prioritizes the black man and his quest for power and self-respect through the ability to provide over family bonds. I found this surprising, given that much of what Baldwin says resonates with me as a female in a male-dominated industry. It did not change my opinion of Baldwin, but it made me think more about survival, love, identity and class.
============== Quotes (= Spoilers?) ==============
Baldwin: You know, it's not the world that was my oppressor, because what the world does to you, if the world does it to you long enough and effectively enough, you begin to do to yourself. You become a collaborator, an accomplice of your own murderers, because you believe the same things they do. They think it's important to be white and you think it's important to be white; they think it's a shame to be black and you think it's a shame to be black. And you have no corroboration around you of any other sense of life. All the corroboration around you is in terms of the white majority standards---so deplorable they frighten you to death. You don't eat watermelon; you get so rigid you can't dance; you can hardly move by the time you're fourteen. You're always scrubbed and shining, a parody of God-knows-what because no white person has ever been as clean as you have been forced to become.
Baldwin: Look, the very first thing a writer has to face is that he cannot be told what to write. You know, nobody asked me to be a writer; I chose it. Well, since I'm a mad I have to assume I chose it; perhaps, in fact, I didn't choose it. But in any case, the one thing you have to do is try to tell the truth. And what everyone overlooks is that in order to do it---when the book comes out it may hurt you ---but in order for me to do it, it had to hurt me first. I can only tell you about yourself as much as I can face about myself. And this has happened to everybody who's tried to live. You go through life for a long time thinking, No one has ever suffered the way I've suffered, my God, my God. And then you realize---You read something or you hear something, and you realize that your suffering does not isolate you; your suffering is your bridge. Many people have suffered before you, many people are suffering around you and always will, and all you can do is bring, hopefully, a little light into that suffering. Enough life so that the person who is suffering can begin to comprehend his suffering and begin to live with it and begin to change it, change the situation. We don't change anything; all we can do is invest people with the morale to change it for themselves.
Baldwin: The artist is not free to do what he wants to do; the artist is free to do what he has to do.
Baldwin: People invent categories in order to feel safe. White people invented black people to give white people identity. Straight cats invent faggots so they can sleep with them without becoming faggots themselves.
Baldwin: If you're a writer you are forced to look behind the word into the meaning of the word...[Y]ou're responsible for what that word means, so you have to find the way to use that word to liberate the energy in that word, so it has a positive effect on the lives of people. There is such a thing as the living word. And that's not a mystical statement.
April 17, 2018
A transcript of an interview between these two amazing minds. I loved it. There back and forth and disagreements were fascinating.
July 1, 2019
“no tyrant in history was able to read but every single one of them burned the books”
January 24, 2021
Nicki's & Baldwin's lucidity of thought and language skill is celestial. Pure genius.
November 26, 2021
When brilliant people speak? Mmmm yeah this is it.
December 4, 2023
Two of the smartest people ever just spitballing the most profound things.
December 16, 2024
full broadcast video linked here
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