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November #7
Ivan Kosin
In a post-catastrophic world, a ruthless government interrogator with a dark past is transformed into a carrier, and must learn to navigate his new world to find redemption and love. Words:46318 COMPLETE.
139 pages, ebook
First published September 1, 2009
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Displaying 1 - 6 of 6 reviews
July 12, 2014
7/11/14
Having not read the earlier installments, I have no baggage coming into this. As such, I have no qualms about feeling sympathy for Ivan. Of course, since I remember this story not at all at this point, this would probably be a good point for me to stop, read the rest of the series, then come back and see how I still feel about Ivan. I got to Chapter 5, and have already re-sympathizing with him, though.
D: but I wanna read this one now...
Later:
You know what? I don't give a crap. I went to the first one, went to "Entire Work," looked for "Ivan" and "Kosin," read briefly, and decided I don't care. I'm not a "filthy normal" (<-- inside joke I'm technically not even "in" on oh well) and I don't ascribe to binary morality.
If you're an asshole enough to think Ivan deserves all of the shit that happens and has happened to him (or that anyone would deserve any sort of shit that happens to them), then you're a filthy normal and an idiot and deserving of my scorn and ridicule, too.
'Sides. I feel like the MCs of the first few would have just pissed me off for being too normal.
Sure, his past doesn't exactly excuse the actions he takes in his present, but by being so blindly moralistic, you help perpetuate the sort of system that would create this sort of ideation. Besides, you can't excuse one set of people for their past and not another. And sure, it's all about context, and what most people fail to do is realign their cognition to consider the context from the flip side, but it still annoys me.
I'm done with my self-righteous blathering for the time being. More on my thoughts when/as I finish rereading.
HERE'S THE REST:
The thing gets away from me a bit, so I feel compelled to disclaim: typical rambling musings and speculations, jotted notes, half-finished thoughts, all typed as they came to me and abandoned when I felt like the stream dried up or I rambled so far I got lost.*
The formatting is a bit odd, at least on AO3, where I read it.
The writing is a bit rough, too. Cosmetically speaking, at the very least. I'm hard-pressed to pin down what it is at the moment that seems a bit raw (not a polished rawness, if that makes sense, but a raw sort of rawness, an undeliberately unrefined sort of feel). It's not a big problem, just something I noticed.
I do like the way the author frames things, though. The subtle notes of Ivan's ideation is well done. It's (mostly) apparent enough to make sense to the readers, but not so obvious as to seem disingenuous. He's been through shit, had to deal with it, tough it out, and that's there on the surface, but all of the scars and internal hurt still bleeds through, and sometimes bleeds through in the fact that things that probably should hurt don't hurt anymore, or at least he doesn't (or tries not to, suppresses) feel them anymore. All of the scar tissue has deadened his overt pain, but we sympathize and feel the pain he can no longer feel, made more poignant because that part has been killed out of him.
Having read numerous A/B/O fics in the meanwhile (since my first review/read, that is), I do view the whole universe construction differently now. Maybe it’s true, then, about carrier psychology. If, viewed from a more in-context POV and not an IRL POV, maybe that’s just how these people are constructed, and that’s not necessarily bad.
It’s also a bit like the 50’s housewife stereotype/archetype.
^half-assed attempt at gender analysis
Eh. It’s odd because you can see what seems to be a change in his ideation. It’s hard to tell if he thought this way before or not since a “before” isn’t really present, but it starts conforming to...well, I’d call it typical omega ideation.
There’s an interesting distinction between “Ivan” and “Kosin” later on, after the part. It’s quite poignant/evocative and telling. “Ivan” is the budding carrier, while Kosin is the harder more jaded interrogator. For the most part, Ivan’s around, but sometimes, the Kosin part more manifests. Not quite DID, as I previous speculated - it’s not that distinct a divide, per se - but differing aspects of personality dynamics.
I mean, when I consider the universe in terms of A/B/O dynamics, it makes sense. I see the parallels there. Which kind of makes me wonder, when did I start normalizing A/B/O dynamics? There must have been a period of time when all of this was new and odd and I had to wrap my mind around it. In fact, even in my old review, you can see how I couldn’t quite wrap my mind around it and tried to force it into RL constructs.
The problem with the way Malcolm is treating Ivan isn’t exactly his fault, I see. Of course, since we the readers are in Ivan’s head, I can see that he needs to be treated with a bit more delicacy, or subtle maneuvering. I mean, as I see it, the way things are happening now aren’t bad, given Mal’s apparently depthless patience. They’ll get there in the end, and as approaches go, they’re not bad. I think why I have partial issue with it is that I don’t want Mal to just manage Ivan, I want him to figure out all the shit that’s gone on in Ivan’s life and help...I don’t want to say “fix,” but that’s the only term I can think of at the moment. I want Ivan to be able to work through the issues caused by his past that are still affecting him today, and for Mal to be aware of all that and possibly help him through and actually heal instead of just managing. I mean, it wouldn’t be bad for him to just manage, but with the healing, it wouldn’t be ignoring his past self for the creation of a new one but evolving his past self in a self-aware manner.
Another interesting thing is you can see my self development in the shelf choices. Old shelves: lul-wut, o_o, read, reviewed
New ones: be-still-my-heart, evocative-or-edifying, favorites, read, reviewed, visceral, whumpity-whump-whump
The only things in common are “read” and “reviewed.”
I mean, I can see the structural basis, but for way the carriers are treated, but it also irks me as sexist and condescending.
And again, the way everyone’s handling Ivan...it’s like they’re creating work-arounds instead of actually guiding some sort of self-actualization, and that irks me.
I understand the value of positive self-talk, but at the same time, it feels like they’re ignoring the issue(s) in hopes that they’ll go away.
Eh. And then the other thing. Maybe I wouldn’t have an issue with it if the idiot males didn’t tell themselves they were helping the carriers find themselves, and the carriers believed it. It’s...breaking them. At least, they’re trying to break Ivan. They don’t want Ivan to grow into his submission and whatnot. They want to break him and make him docile, not encourage it. I mean, I kind of want Ivan to break completely, go catatonic, or start dissociating. Poor guy.
Eh, and no, it’s still true. The systematic re-education comment I made. And somewhat cult-like, too O_o
OH WAIT. No, it’s brainwashing. Behavioral engineering. Clever, if manipulative. Dark, really, and unsettling, given my pesky propensity for advocating free will - informed free will, that is. Radical restructuring of an existing personality...too much like murder for my liking. In that case, you can’t claim that the person did what you’re claiming they did; it’s not them anymore, it’s this alternate personality you’ve created. Based in the original, sure, but you’ve radically rewritten their cognition. I hardly think the original person can be held accountable.
But gah. Eradicating the existing personality.
The other comment still holds. It’s like one of those alternative Nifty-type stories, but distributed through “legitimate” means (since I’m reading off AO3 and not AFF). I suppose by legitimate, though, I mean...eh, not as reality-bending? These type of stories have, I dunno, completely different constructs of what’s okay and what isn’t, and...I think it’s the free will thing. Or the personality thing. Eh. I dunno. But there's a distinction in there somewhere.
9/16/13
*le gasp*
This blurb. This blurb. It's so beautiful.
Can I skip to this one first? Please? Pretty please?
post-read:
At about 1/3 the way through Ivan Kosin, I thought to myself, "I agree with Emma; I'd kill myself."
Not that this world is any better. I mean, in some ways it is, and there are probably a lot of not-chauvinist men, but there are definitely those ones out there, and some of them, if anything, have been driven deeper into their chauvinism by the spread of "more liberal" ideas.
It's...weird. Unsettling. Horribly thought-provoking. It sucks you in, you know?
And then you start viewing the world through Ivan's eyes, and that's when it gets really horrible.
I kind of...took a step back, though. Well, technically I fell asleep in the middle of reading. Either way, that gave me the break from this universe's reality that I probably needed. In many ways, you've got to admire how systematically and purposefully everything is done. The behavioral engineering...they've got that down to an art. Mal is a blundering fool, but that's a given.
Except then the dynamics changed, and it was really about Mal and not Ivan, and now I'm confused. Was the beginning part a dual side of the whole deal or was it just Mal and his ignorance? Can I take it now because the dynamics really have changed or has my brain adjusted itself to this new equilibrium?
...Behavioral engineering on both sides. Huh. That...no, that makes sense.
Holy fuck. It's a cult. It's a fucking goddamn cult, and that's probably one of the weirdest revelations I've ever had while reading an m/m thing.
Actually, is this much different from Dom/sub dynamics? Except it's not. Ah. I know what it is. That insidious edge of "it's not quite completely uncoerced." It's more like Puppy Love than, say, Deviations, and that...unsettles me. It's like What Worse Place Can I Beg in Your Love? It's the mindfuck and then the character finding his equilibrium in the mindfuck and insisting he's still in his full capacities. Of course, who are we to judge, right? Perhaps the character really has discovered himself. Perhaps this sort of thing is really what he wanted after all.
It just still feels like there's the edge of "well, this is as good as it's going to get, which means it's great." Is there a way back from that, though? After such a change in one's cognition? Theoretically the answer is yes, but practically, the answer seems more like no.
This reminds me of the stories in that one mind-control erotica shady website I found once. It's probably not actually that shady, but it's one of those erotica sites...kind of like Nifty? I don't actually have much experience with Nifty.
But anyways, it's like one of those stories, except it's proliferated "legitimate" channels (I know, I know. extreme bias and bigotry and all that). That makes it even weirder...
I really don't like how that weird indoctrination happened, and then they decided Ivan was mostly fixed or something, but really, the trauma's just buried under more trauma, and with all this shit on top of other shit, I don't know if he'll ever "heal" exactly. He's not okay. He seems it but what they really did was created a different cognition and that's the one being accessed.
All in all, I'd say it was more trauma for the readers than for the characters, since they get to go on in their indoctrinated oblivion of bliss.
Having not read the earlier installments, I have no baggage coming into this. As such, I have no qualms about feeling sympathy for Ivan. Of course, since I remember this story not at all at this point, this would probably be a good point for me to stop, read the rest of the series, then come back and see how I still feel about Ivan. I got to Chapter 5, and have already re-sympathizing with him, though.
D: but I wanna read this one now...
Later:
You know what? I don't give a crap. I went to the first one, went to "Entire Work," looked for "Ivan" and "Kosin," read briefly, and decided I don't care. I'm not a "filthy normal" (<-- inside joke I'm technically not even "in" on oh well) and I don't ascribe to binary morality.
If you're an asshole enough to think Ivan deserves all of the shit that happens and has happened to him (or that anyone would deserve any sort of shit that happens to them), then you're a filthy normal and an idiot and deserving of my scorn and ridicule, too.
'Sides. I feel like the MCs of the first few would have just pissed me off for being too normal.
Sure, his past doesn't exactly excuse the actions he takes in his present, but by being so blindly moralistic, you help perpetuate the sort of system that would create this sort of ideation. Besides, you can't excuse one set of people for their past and not another. And sure, it's all about context, and what most people fail to do is realign their cognition to consider the context from the flip side, but it still annoys me.
I'm done with my self-righteous blathering for the time being. More on my thoughts when/as I finish rereading.
HERE'S THE REST:
The thing gets away from me a bit, so I feel compelled to disclaim: typical rambling musings and speculations, jotted notes, half-finished thoughts, all typed as they came to me and abandoned when I felt like the stream dried up or I rambled so far I got lost.*
The formatting is a bit odd, at least on AO3, where I read it.
The writing is a bit rough, too. Cosmetically speaking, at the very least. I'm hard-pressed to pin down what it is at the moment that seems a bit raw (not a polished rawness, if that makes sense, but a raw sort of rawness, an undeliberately unrefined sort of feel). It's not a big problem, just something I noticed.
I do like the way the author frames things, though. The subtle notes of Ivan's ideation is well done. It's (mostly) apparent enough to make sense to the readers, but not so obvious as to seem disingenuous. He's been through shit, had to deal with it, tough it out, and that's there on the surface, but all of the scars and internal hurt still bleeds through, and sometimes bleeds through in the fact that things that probably should hurt don't hurt anymore, or at least he doesn't (or tries not to, suppresses) feel them anymore. All of the scar tissue has deadened his overt pain, but we sympathize and feel the pain he can no longer feel, made more poignant because that part has been killed out of him.
Having read numerous A/B/O fics in the meanwhile (since my first review/read, that is), I do view the whole universe construction differently now. Maybe it’s true, then, about carrier psychology. If, viewed from a more in-context POV and not an IRL POV, maybe that’s just how these people are constructed, and that’s not necessarily bad.
It’s also a bit like the 50’s housewife stereotype/archetype.
^half-assed attempt at gender analysis
Eh. It’s odd because you can see what seems to be a change in his ideation. It’s hard to tell if he thought this way before or not since a “before” isn’t really present, but it starts conforming to...well, I’d call it typical omega ideation.
There’s an interesting distinction between “Ivan” and “Kosin” later on, after the part. It’s quite poignant/evocative and telling. “Ivan” is the budding carrier, while Kosin is the harder more jaded interrogator. For the most part, Ivan’s around, but sometimes, the Kosin part more manifests. Not quite DID, as I previous speculated - it’s not that distinct a divide, per se - but differing aspects of personality dynamics.
I mean, when I consider the universe in terms of A/B/O dynamics, it makes sense. I see the parallels there. Which kind of makes me wonder, when did I start normalizing A/B/O dynamics? There must have been a period of time when all of this was new and odd and I had to wrap my mind around it. In fact, even in my old review, you can see how I couldn’t quite wrap my mind around it and tried to force it into RL constructs.
The problem with the way Malcolm is treating Ivan isn’t exactly his fault, I see. Of course, since we the readers are in Ivan’s head, I can see that he needs to be treated with a bit more delicacy, or subtle maneuvering. I mean, as I see it, the way things are happening now aren’t bad, given Mal’s apparently depthless patience. They’ll get there in the end, and as approaches go, they’re not bad. I think why I have partial issue with it is that I don’t want Mal to just manage Ivan, I want him to figure out all the shit that’s gone on in Ivan’s life and help...I don’t want to say “fix,” but that’s the only term I can think of at the moment. I want Ivan to be able to work through the issues caused by his past that are still affecting him today, and for Mal to be aware of all that and possibly help him through and actually heal instead of just managing. I mean, it wouldn’t be bad for him to just manage, but with the healing, it wouldn’t be ignoring his past self for the creation of a new one but evolving his past self in a self-aware manner.
Another interesting thing is you can see my self development in the shelf choices. Old shelves: lul-wut, o_o, read, reviewed
New ones: be-still-my-heart, evocative-or-edifying, favorites, read, reviewed, visceral, whumpity-whump-whump
The only things in common are “read” and “reviewed.”
I mean, I can see the structural basis, but for way the carriers are treated, but it also irks me as sexist and condescending.
And again, the way everyone’s handling Ivan...it’s like they’re creating work-arounds instead of actually guiding some sort of self-actualization, and that irks me.
I understand the value of positive self-talk, but at the same time, it feels like they’re ignoring the issue(s) in hopes that they’ll go away.
Eh. And then the other thing. Maybe I wouldn’t have an issue with it if the idiot males didn’t tell themselves they were helping the carriers find themselves, and the carriers believed it. It’s...breaking them. At least, they’re trying to break Ivan. They don’t want Ivan to grow into his submission and whatnot. They want to break him and make him docile, not encourage it. I mean, I kind of want Ivan to break completely, go catatonic, or start dissociating. Poor guy.
Eh, and no, it’s still true. The systematic re-education comment I made. And somewhat cult-like, too O_o
OH WAIT. No, it’s brainwashing. Behavioral engineering. Clever, if manipulative. Dark, really, and unsettling, given my pesky propensity for advocating free will - informed free will, that is. Radical restructuring of an existing personality...too much like murder for my liking. In that case, you can’t claim that the person did what you’re claiming they did; it’s not them anymore, it’s this alternate personality you’ve created. Based in the original, sure, but you’ve radically rewritten their cognition. I hardly think the original person can be held accountable.
But gah. Eradicating the existing personality.
The other comment still holds. It’s like one of those alternative Nifty-type stories, but distributed through “legitimate” means (since I’m reading off AO3 and not AFF). I suppose by legitimate, though, I mean...eh, not as reality-bending? These type of stories have, I dunno, completely different constructs of what’s okay and what isn’t, and...I think it’s the free will thing. Or the personality thing. Eh. I dunno. But there's a distinction in there somewhere.
9/16/13
*le gasp*
This blurb. This blurb. It's so beautiful.
Can I skip to this one first? Please? Pretty please?
post-read:
At about 1/3 the way through Ivan Kosin, I thought to myself, "I agree with Emma; I'd kill myself."
Not that this world is any better. I mean, in some ways it is, and there are probably a lot of not-chauvinist men, but there are definitely those ones out there, and some of them, if anything, have been driven deeper into their chauvinism by the spread of "more liberal" ideas.
It's...weird. Unsettling. Horribly thought-provoking. It sucks you in, you know?
And then you start viewing the world through Ivan's eyes, and that's when it gets really horrible.
I kind of...took a step back, though. Well, technically I fell asleep in the middle of reading. Either way, that gave me the break from this universe's reality that I probably needed. In many ways, you've got to admire how systematically and purposefully everything is done. The behavioral engineering...they've got that down to an art. Mal is a blundering fool, but that's a given.
Except then the dynamics changed, and it was really about Mal and not Ivan, and now I'm confused. Was the beginning part a dual side of the whole deal or was it just Mal and his ignorance? Can I take it now because the dynamics really have changed or has my brain adjusted itself to this new equilibrium?
...Behavioral engineering on both sides. Huh. That...no, that makes sense.
Holy fuck. It's a cult. It's a fucking goddamn cult, and that's probably one of the weirdest revelations I've ever had while reading an m/m thing.
Actually, is this much different from Dom/sub dynamics? Except it's not. Ah. I know what it is. That insidious edge of "it's not quite completely uncoerced." It's more like Puppy Love than, say, Deviations, and that...unsettles me. It's like What Worse Place Can I Beg in Your Love? It's the mindfuck and then the character finding his equilibrium in the mindfuck and insisting he's still in his full capacities. Of course, who are we to judge, right? Perhaps the character really has discovered himself. Perhaps this sort of thing is really what he wanted after all.
It just still feels like there's the edge of "well, this is as good as it's going to get, which means it's great." Is there a way back from that, though? After such a change in one's cognition? Theoretically the answer is yes, but practically, the answer seems more like no.
This reminds me of the stories in that one mind-control erotica shady website I found once. It's probably not actually that shady, but it's one of those erotica sites...kind of like Nifty? I don't actually have much experience with Nifty.
But anyways, it's like one of those stories, except it's proliferated "legitimate" channels (I know, I know. extreme bias and bigotry and all that). That makes it even weirder...
I really don't like how that weird indoctrination happened, and then they decided Ivan was mostly fixed or something, but really, the trauma's just buried under more trauma, and with all this shit on top of other shit, I don't know if he'll ever "heal" exactly. He's not okay. He seems it but what they really did was created a different cognition and that's the one being accessed.
All in all, I'd say it was more trauma for the readers than for the characters, since they get to go on in their indoctrinated oblivion of bliss.
December 29, 2014
Ehm. 3.5. It was 5 stars and I truly felt this was the most introspective installment, and then Ivan's punishment at the party happened and the whole ritual business lost me. But I loved the ending.
July 12, 2015
Okay, this was a good addition.
My low ranking is because of my personal preference of wanting this guy to get tortured in the lowest depths of depravity for what he did to Carriers in the previous book. Torturing them, subjecting them to humiliation and worse, sending them to the Rowe House... and he gets an HEA.... without any real remorse for his actions or making amends for what he has done. Seriously?
~Rasberry~
My low ranking is because of my personal preference of wanting this guy to get tortured in the lowest depths of depravity for what he did to Carriers in the previous book. Torturing them, subjecting them to humiliation and worse, sending them to the Rowe House... and he gets an HEA.... without any real remorse for his actions or making amends for what he has done. Seriously?
~Rasberry~
March 11, 2015
Wow, very long story about what happens to the officer who tried to rape a 14 year old carrier in August. What sweet revenge to be caught, red handed, and shot with the serum that makes a man become a carrier. In some ways this book is less about carriers and men and more about struggling to be who you really are. There are some profound moments, see my progress for a quote that sums up the carrier/man philosophy.
Kosin is a very unlikable MC. He becomes the wife of Malcom, a man who does not want to give physical punishment or malltreatment to his carrier wife. But becuase Kosin is so disgusted that he was turned into a carrier and disgusted with his former life of terrorizing carriers, he is constantly testing boundries and continuing to be a fucked up human.
This type of book is not what I search out for reading enjoyment, yet I am continually drawn into these weird dramas (Special Forces, The Substitute).
Very well written although not for the faint of heart.
Kosin is a very unlikable MC. He becomes the wife of Malcom, a man who does not want to give physical punishment or malltreatment to his carrier wife. But becuase Kosin is so disgusted that he was turned into a carrier and disgusted with his former life of terrorizing carriers, he is constantly testing boundries and continuing to be a fucked up human.
This type of book is not what I search out for reading enjoyment, yet I am continually drawn into these weird dramas (Special Forces, The Substitute).
Very well written although not for the faint of heart.
July 2, 2013
I liked this quite a bit. The only thing that really bothered me wa that this book is about Ivan Kosin and we were supposed to feel bad for him. Kosin was a total asshole and a horrible human being in an early fic and I just found it very hard to scrounge up any sympathy for him. I didn't find it as sad when bad things would happen to him because I felt as though he had it coming. I think I would have enjoyed the story more if were about someone else. Maybe that's just me though?
August 31, 2025
Even though I really disliked him, I really enjoyed watching him come to terms with his new life as a carrier. He kind of annoyed me with how he was acting at time but hey, that's Ivan. Malcolm was nice until the...incident and now I'm wondering what the hell made him want to bring Ivan to a damn CULT of all places. Ivan learned to love Malcolm in some form in the end and Malcolm learned...the ways of the Manor men??? But anyway, they seemed pretty content in the end even though they ended up in a weird poly cult. The other carriers were nice enough, especially George, I really liked his character. Even though I really hated Ivan in August, I'm glad he was able to become somewhat comfortable in this new chapter of his life.
This entire review has been hidden because of spoilers.
Displaying 1 - 6 of 6 reviews