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Demon: The Fallen
Book by Michael B. Lee, Greg Stolze, Adam Tinworth
304 pages, Hardcover
First published November 11, 2001
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Michael Lee
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For other authors of this name, see:
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Displaying 1 - 9 of 9 reviews
August 31, 2007
Falls into the same pitfalls as the most successful of White Wolf's various rehashings of their original Vampire. Namely, the powers are ill-explained and leave one wondering whether one can only do certain explicitly-defined things, or whether these are merely guidelines for the sorts of available behaviors. In a game based primarily on story, one suspects the latter, but the book does not provide with a strong enough sense of just what the boundaries to one's skills are, leaving all involved fairly lost.
Of course, the feel should lie with the GM, but in a system with powers which should theoretically be balanced against one another (not really something White Wolf is known for doing well), the rules become more important.
The strength of the setting lies not in the rules, however, nor in the cookie-cutter humanity/evil, power set, or sectarian character classes. No, the strength of Demon is in the bizarrely deep and undeniably Miltonian setting which borrows liberally from all manner of newer Satanic readings, such as The Screwtape Letters, Dogma, or the Prophecy films. Unfortunately, much of the setting was clearly left deliberately vague in the promise of innumerable support books which never came.
Another work which makes me curse the irrelationship between popularity and quality.
Of course, the feel should lie with the GM, but in a system with powers which should theoretically be balanced against one another (not really something White Wolf is known for doing well), the rules become more important.
The strength of the setting lies not in the rules, however, nor in the cookie-cutter humanity/evil, power set, or sectarian character classes. No, the strength of Demon is in the bizarrely deep and undeniably Miltonian setting which borrows liberally from all manner of newer Satanic readings, such as The Screwtape Letters, Dogma, or the Prophecy films. Unfortunately, much of the setting was clearly left deliberately vague in the promise of innumerable support books which never came.
Another work which makes me curse the irrelationship between popularity and quality.
March 30, 2019
I have a soft spot for this book, but it has not held up so well over the years. Perhaps the issue is more that society and the hobby have moved on. There's still a lot to like, and this game would benefit greatly from a 20th anniversary edition to clean up the warts.
Honestly, the largest problem is the general disrespect it has for the source material it draws from. While I would never go after it for imperfectly fitting any particular angelology, but basically ignoring all of them and naming the seven Houses of the Fallen after gods and sacred/mythic animals from various ancient traditions is not great. Plus, the Hebrew was horrific, to the point of being mildly offensive, calling the angels "elohim" as though that was a plural term and not in active use in a real world minority religion (especially given that "malakim" is a perfectly good word for them, and is used in a specific angelic name in the book, most of which are also terrible). Oh, and of course, it does include an offhand remark that "severely autistic people" are less fully human. That...needs to be excised.
However, when viewing it as a Milton-esque exercise it succeeds quite well when you get past those trappings. The Factions are all logical responses to the trauma of the rebellion and time in hell, and it combines themes from Vampire, Mage and Changeling in generally creative ways. The mechanics are solid and will need minimal updating for compatibility with 20th anniversary rules.
But the cultural insensitivity issues and the lack of research into the mythology that they're building on are sticking points. If the book were being written today, more research, more care with languages, better choice of proper nouns (even just using names for demons from different traditions instead of just gods, like calling one House Sheydim would not bother me, as an example) and of course, not putting "severely autistic" people into the same category as people who are comatose, braindead, and who've had their souls snuffed out.
So, a good game, but running it in a way that avoids these problems would take significant work.
Honestly, the largest problem is the general disrespect it has for the source material it draws from. While I would never go after it for imperfectly fitting any particular angelology, but basically ignoring all of them and naming the seven Houses of the Fallen after gods and sacred/mythic animals from various ancient traditions is not great. Plus, the Hebrew was horrific, to the point of being mildly offensive, calling the angels "elohim" as though that was a plural term and not in active use in a real world minority religion (especially given that "malakim" is a perfectly good word for them, and is used in a specific angelic name in the book, most of which are also terrible). Oh, and of course, it does include an offhand remark that "severely autistic people" are less fully human. That...needs to be excised.
However, when viewing it as a Milton-esque exercise it succeeds quite well when you get past those trappings. The Factions are all logical responses to the trauma of the rebellion and time in hell, and it combines themes from Vampire, Mage and Changeling in generally creative ways. The mechanics are solid and will need minimal updating for compatibility with 20th anniversary rules.
But the cultural insensitivity issues and the lack of research into the mythology that they're building on are sticking points. If the book were being written today, more research, more care with languages, better choice of proper nouns (even just using names for demons from different traditions instead of just gods, like calling one House Sheydim would not bother me, as an example) and of course, not putting "severely autistic" people into the same category as people who are comatose, braindead, and who've had their souls snuffed out.
So, a good game, but running it in a way that avoids these problems would take significant work.
May 1, 2022
Se você já conhece o sistema da White Wolf, não terá nenhum problema com esse livro, já que ele segue exatamente a proposta dos outros rpgs da companhia, como Vampiro, a Máscara. Se você não conhece, o livro traz todo o set de regras bem explicado e exemplificado.
Demônio: A Queda é um rpg que puxa mais para a filosofia do que para o combate. Não que esse tenha sido negligenciado, de fato, houve uma óbvia tentativa de facilitar o mesmo com uma simplificação das doutrinas (poderes) desse livro. Enquanto outros rpgs extrapolam na criatividade, este prefere se valer de coisas já conhecidas por doutrinas religiosas.
Agora, por que um rpg se focaria mais na filosofia, e consequentemente, narrativa? Exatamente porque o tema é um vespeiro. Sendo baseado totalmente na mitologia judaico-cristã, muitos jogadores podem se sentir incomodados ou até ofendidos com algumas coisas citadas aqui. Por isso há vários avisos no livro inteiro, é apenas um jogo!
O nome é bem sugestivo para algo semelhante a Vampiro... é possível arregimentar congregações, ser um lobo solitário, influenciar mortais, etc. Mas o rpg inteiro foca na premissa de que o mundo está acabando (como em todos os outros rpgs do Mundo das Trevas) e você está no meio da guerra.
Uma das grandes sacadas dessa edição é que a história acontece focada nos jogadores, ao invés de ao redor deles. Não importa se você tentando um mortal, procurando a redenção ou combatendo. Tudo na história remete ao protagonismo.
Isso merece palmas, Demônio: A Queda é recheado de referências, pequenos contos, dicas sobre o que está acontecendo para que, se o mestre quiser, ancorar bem sua narrativa. De lambuja, ainda há menções há Lobisomem, Vampiro e Changeling.
Demônio: A Queda é um rpg que puxa mais para a filosofia do que para o combate. Não que esse tenha sido negligenciado, de fato, houve uma óbvia tentativa de facilitar o mesmo com uma simplificação das doutrinas (poderes) desse livro. Enquanto outros rpgs extrapolam na criatividade, este prefere se valer de coisas já conhecidas por doutrinas religiosas.
Agora, por que um rpg se focaria mais na filosofia, e consequentemente, narrativa? Exatamente porque o tema é um vespeiro. Sendo baseado totalmente na mitologia judaico-cristã, muitos jogadores podem se sentir incomodados ou até ofendidos com algumas coisas citadas aqui. Por isso há vários avisos no livro inteiro, é apenas um jogo!
O nome é bem sugestivo para algo semelhante a Vampiro... é possível arregimentar congregações, ser um lobo solitário, influenciar mortais, etc. Mas o rpg inteiro foca na premissa de que o mundo está acabando (como em todos os outros rpgs do Mundo das Trevas) e você está no meio da guerra.
Uma das grandes sacadas dessa edição é que a história acontece focada nos jogadores, ao invés de ao redor deles. Não importa se você tentando um mortal, procurando a redenção ou combatendo. Tudo na história remete ao protagonismo.
Isso merece palmas, Demônio: A Queda é recheado de referências, pequenos contos, dicas sobre o que está acontecendo para que, se o mestre quiser, ancorar bem sua narrativa. De lambuja, ainda há menções há Lobisomem, Vampiro e Changeling.
January 24, 2023
Of all the classic World of Darkness games, this is probably the strangest and to me, the most difficult to grasp, as the characters are in essence far beyond any other supernatural creature in this family of games, their concerns regarding the whole of Creation across millennia, instead of any one particular aspect.
The background is solid enough, a sort of George MacDonald-esque take on the biblical theme of the Fall, evidently drawing on the same sources as seminal works like the comic book Lucifer. It's interesting that there is great and consistent emphasis on Hebrew lore, instead of the usual (and later) Christian versions, for instance the typical hellscape being an era of Earth, while the place of imprisonment and punishment of the Fallen being a version of Sheol.
The Fallen are basically deities with PTSD, and it's a game inviting you to explore the more uncomfortable truths about humanity in general, and you as a player personally. Definitely intriguing.
One thing White Wolf never learned during that era, was that walls of text are not the ideal approach to impart information, especially with small, elaborate and highly unreadable fonts - though thankfully, this problem is confined to a handful of chapter intro pages that can be skipped.
The background is solid enough, a sort of George MacDonald-esque take on the biblical theme of the Fall, evidently drawing on the same sources as seminal works like the comic book Lucifer. It's interesting that there is great and consistent emphasis on Hebrew lore, instead of the usual (and later) Christian versions, for instance the typical hellscape being an era of Earth, while the place of imprisonment and punishment of the Fallen being a version of Sheol.
The Fallen are basically deities with PTSD, and it's a game inviting you to explore the more uncomfortable truths about humanity in general, and you as a player personally. Definitely intriguing.
One thing White Wolf never learned during that era, was that walls of text are not the ideal approach to impart information, especially with small, elaborate and highly unreadable fonts - though thankfully, this problem is confined to a handful of chapter intro pages that can be skipped.
February 11, 2019
This is a core sourcebook for the World of the Darkness, showing how to play or run a roleplaying game in that setting where the main characters are demons. Alas, this particular book feels more disconnected from the rest of the World of Darkness, although it offers vivid detail on the various types of demons within it and the humans whom interact with them. The back story is very Judeo-Christian, offering an interesting and complex perspective on biblical lore. The variety of quotes was more limited in the volume, nor was the artwork as striking as it’s been in other World of Darkness core books. Some of the writing was excellent, offering sound advice not only on running or playing a Demon chronicle, but on constructing or crafting a story itself. This book’s strengths make it well worth reading, plus the way a demon comes to interact with the modern world is fascinating, very like that described in Mummy: The Resurrection. If you enjoy the original World of Darkness corebooks, I’d recommend picking this one up.
December 18, 2022
Fascinating concept, but botched mechanical execution which was only corrected in later supplements. Full review: https://refereeingandreflection.wordp...
September 19, 2011
Demon: The Fallen in a rules compendium on playing a Demon in White Wolf's fabled "Old World of Darkness". This book lists everything you need to make a character, get started, and play. As a game, it is immensely fun, psychological, and difficult; as the players are asked to take on two characters --the demon, and the mortal they possess; running the game takes careful planning and creativity, as the mortals the players make pacts with must be vibrant and flushed-out. But if you are your friends are up to the challenge, Demon is a gratifying and powerful role-playing experience.
On another note, what impresses me most about this book, is that it is surprisingly good fiction as well. The first half of the book is ore-or-less a collection of short stories from the perspectives of several Fallen as they explain The Fall, The War against Heaven, their time in Hell, and most powerfully, what it is like to be human. These stories offer a controversial, Milton-Esq story of the The Fall, and they are as thought-provoking as they are engaging. Tinworth and Stolze effortlessly weave game-play rules with narrative and the result is a lost, precious gem in the annals of both tabletop books and literature.
This one can be difficult to find because of its limited release, but if you get the chance, don't pass it up.
On another note, what impresses me most about this book, is that it is surprisingly good fiction as well. The first half of the book is ore-or-less a collection of short stories from the perspectives of several Fallen as they explain The Fall, The War against Heaven, their time in Hell, and most powerfully, what it is like to be human. These stories offer a controversial, Milton-Esq story of the The Fall, and they are as thought-provoking as they are engaging. Tinworth and Stolze effortlessly weave game-play rules with narrative and the result is a lost, precious gem in the annals of both tabletop books and literature.
This one can be difficult to find because of its limited release, but if you get the chance, don't pass it up.
May 28, 2016
The last of the oWoD settings, and the less entwined with the metaplot, which makes for it the perfect canvas. I loved the setting built over Milton's Paradise Lost, mixed with biblical and gnostic material. It has the perfect amount of mistery built around it, and a great potential for drama building, while pleasing the most hardcore powergamer. A lot of powerful stories could be built from, and are hinted at, this book. A fantastic setting in every sense.
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January 6, 2013Uno di quei giochi davvero difficili da immaginare ma talmente affascianti che non puoi non averne una copia, se sei un amante del genere.
Io non sono un amante del genere in verit��, ma il manuale lo trovo comunque fantastico.
Displaying 1 - 9 of 9 reviews