Fantastic Four, Volume 2

Fantastic Four (1998) (Single Issues) #503-513

by Mark Waid, Howard Porter (Artist), Mike Wieringo (Artist)

It seemed like a simple enough idea at the time. Now that their arch-enemy, Doctor Doom, had seemingly perished, the Fantastic Four would journey into his nation of Latveria, disassemble its war machine and set its oppressed citizens free. But what appeared to be a black-and-white situation quickly turns a murky shade of grey, and Reed Richards and his family find themselves besieged on all sides - both by those they thought of as their allies, and by the very people they are trying to save. And in the awful aftermath of their authoritative action, three of the Four must contend with the defenses of the afterlife - and storm the gates of Heaven itself to rescue a fallen teammate. They've faced Galactus, the destroyer of everything; now, they face the creator of everything, as the FF are reunited in the hereafter. Plus: The Fantastic Four have a lot to answer for - and when you're trying to regain the trust of cynical New Yorkers, is associating with a certain misunderstood wall-crawler really a wise move? Collects Fantastic Four 503-513.

Genres: Comics, Marvel, Graphic Novels, Superheroes, Fiction, Comic Book, Adventure

264 pages, Hardcover

First published October 19, 2011

About the author

Mark Waid (born March 21, 1962 in Hueytown, Alabama) is an American comic book writer. He is best known for his eight-year run as writer of the DC Comics' title The Flash, as well as his scripting of the limited series Kingdom Come and Superman: Birthright, and his work on Marvel Comics' Captain America.

Reviews

[Blindzider · Rating 3 out of 5]

A "darker" volume than the previous. The FF deal with the after effects of their confrontation with Doom from the last volume. It rings of real-world geopolitics, just what happens when a ruler of a country is removed. I don't think this has ever been handled before, at least in an FF book, and that says something. The personal part of the story looks into the mind of Reed, to see how he deals with a difficult situation. The second half has the team trying to regroup after the ramifications of Reed's actions and this is the weaker part. While the first had some implausibility you could at least get what Waid was trying to do but the ending of the second part feels "hokey", and a little too gimmicky, wrapping the events up to neatly. Just comes off as unsatisfying.

Howard Porter lends to the art chores and while it doesn't look like his work on JLA it does add to the grimmer feel of the story.

One plus is the one shot "epilogue" with a team-up between Spider-Man and the Human Torch. It's funny, while highlighting the two different personalities.

[Alex Robinson · Rating 3 out of 5]

I prefer when the FF stick to sci-fi so the Doom storyline isn’t my favorite. I also thought the heavenly cameo was a bit much.
Plus, despite the names on the title there is a lot of non-Weringo material.

[Sunil · Rating 4 out of 5]

What impresses me about Mark Waid's run is that he's truly interested in consequences. After having ostensibly defeated Doctor Doom, the Fantastic Four actually deal with the fallout caused in Latveria, a country suddenly without a ruler. In the process, of course, they cause an international incident. I don't know how FF is usually written, but Waid's run is very Reed-centric, and he seems intent on piling more and more angst onto the poor guy. We see how Reed's encounter with Doom has changed him, not just physically but mentally as well. The Reed/Doom rivalry reminds me a bit of Superman/Lex Luthor—and many other nemesis-type relationships—in that they both seem locked in this Moebius hate spiral. Although I liked what Waid was doing with the character, I felt he relied a bit too much on clichés at points, tried-and-true motivations and dialogue that still work but stand out in an otherwise strong story (excellently illustrated by Howard Porter). As the situation in Latveria gets out of control and Reed's actions seem more and more dire, shit gets real, and, again, there are consequences.

Wieringo returns for the next story arc, and to describe it would be inherently spoilery, but it does handle a typical comic book situation in a unique way, and I appreciated that Waid kept the story grounded in the characters and their feelings. The characters fight a lot more in these stories than in the last one, where they had to work together to face a common foe. Without a common foe, they have only themselves to deal with, and Waid treats these superheroes as people like any other...with access to ridiculous technology and the ability to travel to unthinkable places. The final pages are a brilliantly clever eye-rolly cop-out. Yes, it is all of these things, and more!

The collection closes out with some more humorous stories (that still have a little of the serious character work that Waid does so well). I've been enjoying Waid's run a lot; on the one hand, I kind of want to read more Fantastic Four stories, and on the other, I don't know that I want to read this team not written by Mark Waid.

[Jennifer · Rating 4 out of 5]

Summary
Part 1: Serious politics stuff
Part 2: Serious stuff about grief, death, and the afterlife
Part 3: Mood lifting, silly fun Human Torch and Spidey fighting with Hydroman at a waterpark

Part 1 and the beginning of part 2 were very good, though heavy. Waid writes intelligently, and gives a survey of the complexity of politics and media, both in terms of current events and celebrity PR and finance.

The afterlife stuff gets a bit odd, and I didn't enjoy the FF literally meeting the "creator," who not-so-coincidentally was an artist.

Part 3 was pure fun, and I enjoyed the silly jibes between the Human Torch and Spider-man.

A note on Susan:
I'm not a mom, so take this with a grain of salt, but, especially in this collection, Susan is characterized very much by her identity as a mother. While I acknowledge that this is a huge part of her life and identity, it's also a huge part of Reed's life and identity, so why is he portrayed doing other things, having other hobbies, and literally shaping the future *in addition* to being a loving dad, whereas Sue isn't?

P.S. I actually enjoyed reading the couple-of-page extras at the end of the two issues, one about Susan teasing Reed by jokingly trying to make him jealous of her ex, Namor, and the other of Susan going back in time with Reed's ex.

[William Thomas · Rating 2 out of 5]

Oh dear lord, did that really just happen? Did this really get past the editors? I'm not going to go into this, the volume starts off with a great premise and execution, but then just devolves into the wackiest, silliest and most asinine story I've ever read. Ever. Mark Waid, is there really a heaven? and are all our long-lost pets there? and will Jack Kirby draw a caricature of me? Jesus. Literally.

Grade: D

[Michael Emond · Rating 2 out of 5]

I read the first two volumes in this collection and after I really disliked the second volume I thought I would give it a break and pick it up again to see if a rest improved my mood for Waid's writing. It did not.

The art was solid as the first two volumes although half the book is actually Howard Porter art NOT Wieringo's art. And although I prefer Wieringo, Porter does a great job as a fill in. So the art is not the problem.

It is 100% Waid. And I have had the same problem with his writing on other runs that were HIGHLY recommended by fans (as this run is..often called "the best run of FF ever"..yikes).
One of my key problems with Waid is he seems to write for the conclusion of his stories (comes up with them first) and makes the characters do uncharacteristic things to get there. And this ended up with a lot of moments where I did not recognize the characters as the FF I know. Reed was acting insane and then spent the rest of the volume being berated for acting out of character and he spends it apologizing for it.
"That was way out of line, Reed!" "Yeah - well I only acted like that because Mark Waid needed me to, not because it was in character for me to do it." "You should have explained your plan to us, Reed, it would have only taken a few minutes." "Yeah - but then Ben wouldn't have been killed and Mark Waid really wanted him to be killed." "That's still no excuse!" "I know. I am sorry. How can I make it up to you, I am so very sorry." "All is forgiven after a few issues of us yelling at you. No worries." "Thank you - was it because I did something to redeem myself?" "No. I was because Mark Waid was tired of us yelling at you so we forgave you. No real reason."
That was cathartic for me. Let me summarize the first 6 part story like that.
"Hi Latveria. This is the FF. We killed Doom so we would like to help transition you to a democratic society."
"No!!! We hate you. We were happy with Doom and ignore the fact anyone who disagreed with him was immediately killed."
"Please don't hate us. Look! We just stopped Hungary from invading you."
"We don't care. We hate you."
"We just stopped Russia and Turkey from invading you. Man...a lot of countries couldn't wait to go to war with you."
"We don't care. We hate you."
UNITED NATIONS: FF you are now considered war criminals for helping defend Latveria from being invaded.
"That makes no sense. Shouldn't you be mad at the countries trying to invade a peaceful nation?"
LATVERIA "We still hate you!"
"We have saved the world 100 times!"
UNITED NATIONS "We have short term memory! You are under arrest."
LATVERIA "We love you now!! Don't take the FF away from us"
Also - Ben dies. In such a convoluted way...I won't bore you.

So the next 3 part story is the FF going to heaven to rescue Ben. From the notes at the end of the volume (emails between Waid and his very concerned editors) it is obvious Waid is super pleased with how super duper smart he was for figuring out a way to get the FF to heaven. What the editors were too nice to tell him was "this is a very stupid idea - please don't do it you idiot". But Mark was too busy patting himself on the back.."I had to explain how this isn't a reproducible event or whenever a character died they could use it to retrieve someone from heaven. I am very smart for explaining why it was a one time thing because Reed used a very rare element to do it." "But Mark - it is a very stupid idea - using science to travel to heaven..also Ben is Jewish and Heaven isn't a really big concept (it is vaguely mentioned but not the pearly gates details like in Christianity) in that religion so...super dumb." "Don't worry - I will justify it by having them meet God at the end. And you won't believe who I use as the FF's "creator" "Grant Morrison already did that with Animal Man a decade ago. You are not original and this is a very dumb idea." " I am super smart! You know how Reed has been disfigured for 12 issues? I'll have his "creator" erase that with a pencil and draw in his normal face." "What? Why?! That is ridiculous. Why?!" "Because I didn't think of a better way to get his face back to normal and I was tired of it being disfigured."
To say nothing of "the trauma Franklin suffered last story arc is ignored" and "Sue has zero character development".

I read these stories by Mark Waid and I see his trying to imitate Dan Slott's humour and character moments. But he doesn't have the writing skills Slott does so it always falls flat. The humour especially. This was very evident when he tried to capture a fun team up with Spidey and Johnny (Slott did a mini series about their team ups) and the humour and twist at the end didn't work.

So, in the end, I really don't like Waid's writing.

[Charles · Rating 4 out of 5]

The lead story is one that reflects the confused politics of the modern era. Dr. Doom, a man responsible for a great deal of woe in the world and the absolute ruler of the small Eastern European kingdom of Latveria, has been deposed by the Fantastic Four. After many years of being subjugated and with no voice in how they are governed, the people of Latveria now have no functioning government. The Fantastic Four led by Reed Richards steps into the power vacuum, simultaneously cleaning up and processing the technology left by Doom and ruling Latveria.
This is not a situation that all approve of, especially the governments of the neighboring countries and the United Nations. The story opens with the Hungarian army about to invade Latveria and reclaim the territory that was once taken from them. Nick Fury, the head of S. H. I. E. L. D., gives Reed an ultimatum for relinquishing power and being subject to arrest. There is a great deal of dissension in the group as Reed keeps the other three members in the dark. Even though the Fantastic Four stabilized what could have been a disaster, they are reviled in the American press and face significant retribution from the American government. While superheroes have their powers, sometimes they have it rough.
Ben Grimm as the Thing is killed, but Reed is determined to save his life, keeping the body in a stasis field. It is at this point that things get weird and take on a religious bent. Sue, Johnny and Reed use one of devices to literally transport themselves to heaven in order to “rescue” Ben, who appears normal. There are many odd twists to this story, some of which deeply religious people might disapprove of.
In one of the oddest and most ironical plot twists I have ever seen in a comic, the Fantastic Four meet a man that appears to be the almighty and he is drawing comic panels. When he ends one of his statements with “’nuff said,” all Marvelites will understand the reference. It was an unexpected but very nice moment.

[Rick Ray · Rating 3 out of 5]

Collected in this volume is issues #503-513, which features three arcs: "Authoritative Action", "Hereafter" and "Spider Sense".

"Authoritative Action" is one of the stronger arcs in Waid's and Wieringo's lengthy run on the title. Following the disappearance of Doom (he was dragged to hell in the previous arc), a power vacuum in Eastern Europe causes geopolitical turmoil. Reed Richards and team step into to take control of Latveria and Doom's inventions to ensure they don't fall into the hands of hostile governments, but the actions of the Fantastic Four is viewed globally as a coup. The Latverian people are deeply loyal to Doom and begin to protest and openly rebel against the Fantastic Four, but Reed remains steadfast in his choice to serve as Latveria's government. Though Marvel does routinely oversimplify geopolitics, I found the approach by Waid here to be fairly well reasoned out. The various competing interests are fleshed out well and Reed's own arrogance serves as a fun facet to be explored here. The latter portion of this arc isn't quite as strong as the setup, but still an overall enjoyable change of pace for the series.

"Hereafter" follows the Fantastic Four attempting to go to heaven. Yes, it's as stupid as it sounds. Spinning theology into some kind of dimension like the Negative Zone is something that requires a bit of delicacy, and unfortunately this is probably one of the silliest bits of storytelling in the entire run.

"Spider Sense" closes out this volume with a fun little team up between the Torch and Spidey. Johnny struggles with the growing resentment the public has towards the FF and hopes that Spidey can provide some advice on how to navigate the hatred. It's a fun little tale that demonstrates the distinction laid out in both early FF and Spider-Man comics about why the public perceives different superheroes under different lights, and it's executed well.

[Jesse · Rating 5 out of 5]

Great stuff. The beginning, with Doom vs FF is dark and scary and interesting. The art is unfortunately not by Ringo, but it works well enough. Then the arc where the FF visit Heaven is such a classic, amazing story. I remembered it as being longer, but no matter. Raven really liked the meta aspect of it. And Ringo is back for it! It simply would not work with anyone else. Then the last of the book has some silly Johnny/Spider-Man stories, which were fun. The only thing I didn't care for was the occasional joke that was either a bit off-color and/or relied on a topical reference that doesn't play any more. But these were small nitpicks. Overall this book is great.

[B · Rating 3 out of 5]

Blah. They try to do something unusual in a mainstream comic. It just doesn't work. There's a reason people don't go to Heaven very often. It didn't work for Grant Morrison's Justice League. It kind of worked in the Hunt for Nightcrawler, actually, but they can never speak of it again.

The Latveria story was very good for a while, but the idea that Reed was right all along . Meh. Much less interesting. Then it turns out that Reed's idea was stupid. Why did Reed have to seal himself in that pocket dimension, too? And then there was a way out?

I don't know.

[Andres Castro · Rating 5 out of 5]

Me gustó esta historia de los cuatro fantástico y la aparición del grande de los grandes artistas de los cómics que cuando lo lean sabrán a que me refiero, me hizo brotar una lágrima, esta continuación de impensado muestra las consecuencias después de la batalla con Víctor Doom, me gustó ver las consecuencias de lo que podría ocurrirle a latveria sin su tirano y la complejidad de la situación política de un pequeño país como es latveria.

[Shane Perry · Rating 4 out of 5]

Overall another solid volume. Seeing Reed lose himself in wanting to deprive Dr. Doom of everything he held dear was an interesting turn. The arc in Heaven was interesting. Jack Kirby being God was great idea. That being said, I definitely liked the Howard Porter-drawn issues the best. The two issues with Spider-man were terrible.

[William Jeanes Memorial Library]

I enjoyed this graphic novel because I love Marvel.The book was about the Fantastic Four and their adventures after Doctor Doom seemingly dies. After, they must go to “heaven” to save a teammate. Finally, Spider-Man comes to help The Human Torch with his popularity issues.
-Patron N.H.

[José Ignacio · Rating 5 out of 5]

Top tier FF storytelling all around

Waid's run so far had been great, but this is just on a whole different level. Hereafter has to be one of the absolute greatest FF stories ever told, especially because of that ending.

No notes, just pure, fun FF storytelling.

[Ekenedilichukwu Ikegwuani · Rating 5 out of 5]

the best fantastic four writing i've ever seen

[Lillian Francis · Rating 5 out of 5]

Loved this run.
Yes, I cried.
And the Johnny/Peter (not that sort of slash) issues were a scream.

[Lucas · Rating 4 out of 5]

I do not like how Sue is written in some parts...

[ಥ_ಥ · Rating 4 out of 5]

I think I enjoyed volume 2 more, but this was still fun and the art was great.

[Βαγγέλης Τόλιος · Rating 4 out of 5]

She's serving, your honor

[Raul Reyes · Rating 3 out of 5]

3.5
I liked the first arc, but the hereafter arc and the Spider-Man issues didn’t work for me. I don’t understand the reasoning of why having the fantastic four into “heaven” was thematically important to the story, it reaffirms their life mission I guess but I don’t understand the connection between that and them taking over latveria. I also didn’t really like the Spider-Man issues just because I thought it was cheap to immediately go back to the status quo.

[Scott · Rating 3 out of 5]

In the previous volume, Mark Waid made clear his intention to do away with the "honorable villain" portrayal of Doctor Doom that had been the standard for so many years. To this end, he had Doom engaging in some rather out-of-character behavior. Because the story was so good, I gave it a pass.

In this volume, he takes it one step further, revealing Doom as something just this side of Hitler. Then he proceeds to assassinate the character of Mr. Fantastic. Reed Richards, shaken by recent events, completely loses his shit and attempts to take over Latveria, obliterate Doom's legacy, and bring freedom to a bunch of people who weren't doing too badly to begin with. He dupes his teammates, who have no idea of his real intentions.

Reed's actions upset the U.N., the U.S. government, and many others. (Realizing that these stories were originally published 2003-2004, I wondered if this was some kind of political commentary. If so, it's poorly conceived.)

In the second story arc, Reed journeys to the afterlife to bring back a fallen friend. Considering the content, this is actually handled pretty well.

Then we have a two-part story where the Human Torch solicits Spider-Man's advice on how to live in a world that hates him. This story is funny, if a bit too silly at times.

Finally, a piece about the reconciliation of Reed and his wife. A cute story illustrated by Paul Smith that ends the book on a positive note. (Why couldn't Smith have been the regular artist on this series? He makes the other guys look like amateurs.)

Definitely a step down from the first collection, but it has some good bits and I can't say it didn't surprise me, for better or for worse.

[Brian · Rating 4 out of 5]

Generally speaking, I only read stuff in the Ultimate Marvel Universe because it's smaller. However, I picked this up anyway and I'm glad I did. I was never a huge fan of the Fantastic Four, but this was pretty great. Mostly I wondered how I'd react to a story where Reed Richards wasn't the villian and yet, he acts somewhat villainish in the first arc.

I like the logic of actually dismantling all of Doctor Doom's weaponry. I also really enjoyed the fourth wall breaking of Reed saying that even though Doom is dead, he's come back before. They should make sure they destroy everything he ever owned in case he does come back. Comic book logic be damned!

The second arc is the famous Hereafter (famous in that I heard of it without following the series) where the Fantastic Four go to heaven. Seriously. It's actually really cool and handled with a great deal of respect. There is a little bit of deus ex machina in regards to Reed and Ben, but hey, if ever there was a reason to do that, it's literally in the presence of god (the original artist, Jack Kirby).

In short, I really enjoyed this arc and now I see why Mark Waid is so highly regarded on the current run of Daredevil.

[J. · Rating 4 out of 5]

Well, I can't say this was as good as the previous volumes. The first half, about Reed attempting to rule Latveria, is quite good, and has some great character moments. The big reveal is nice and flashy, but the ending is sort of thin--lots of things seem left to be dealt with. But I admire how Waid has the comics-awareness to end the arc the way he does, instead of the more standard ending a few pages before. (If you read it, you'll know what I'm referring to.)

But the second half is a little too weird. It gets very meta-ey for a mainstream comic, and breaks my attention. It also provides a lot of take-backs, which I'm a little sick of at this point. (Not that I can blame Waid--he seemed to play it all fair-and-square.) Anyway, this bit left me feeling a little meh.

There's some other short bits in here: Johnny and Spider-man team-up in a fairly-standard adventure, and Reed and Sue work on their marriage, which is quite good.

Overall, it's still really good FF, but maybe not as immediately impressive as the previous.

[Patrick · Rating 5 out of 5]

The high-point of Waid's and Wieringo's multi-year run on the FF. On the heals of the 500th issue, after yet another run in with Dr. Doom leaves the team emotionally (and Reed Richards gave quite literally) scarred. And after 40 years and 500 issues, Richards figures out what every marvel fan has known since 1963. Even know Doom dies, he is going to show back up sooner or later. So Richards decides to make sure when Doom does return, he has nothing. No country. No resources. And I don't want to spoil one of the best parts, but let's say that Richards tunnel vision has GRAVE consequences for the team. If you are a fan of the FF and have never read these stories, you are depriving yourself of a fantastic treat.

[Greg Callahan · Rating 4 out of 5]

You know, I quite enjoy seeing the aftermath of Dr Doom's latest tirade, but boy was it a struggle to read issues where the family is at each other's throats all the time. It's bound to happen and certainly strengthens their familial bond, but this being my first foray into the FF, it was kind of upsetting. Add to that the artwork of the early issues, I believe by Howard Porter, whose popping eyes and just about ridiculous facial expressions always took me out of the moment. Still, great stories and good character development, even if I was missing the joyful family aspects and wasn't terribly fond of the Heaven stuffs.

(UPDATE): Liked it much better a second time around. Increased rating :)

[Miles · Rating 3 out of 5]

Not as good as the first two books in this series. In particular, I didn't really enjoy the first story line, which takes up nearly half of the book. It just seemed poorly conceived, and Reed, in particular, acted seriously out of character. I know that was the intention, but it just didn't work for me. There were a few nice touches throughout the book, particularly the depiction of the almighty, but this one was a bit of a let down. It is also worth noting that while this is still titled as being a part of the Waid and Wieringo collection, Mike Wieringo actually only penciled 3 of the 11 issues included in the book.

[Martin · Rating 4 out of 5]

The second hardcover volume of Mark Waid's run on Fantastic Four is collected here.

It's an amazing book - wonderful art, great plot, complicated characters. Mark Waid has a way of bringing depth into everything he writes and you can clearly see that here.
This volume is not as wonderful as the first one - it's a lot less adventurous, I'd say, and it goes way darker than I expected. It's still a great story that will make you fall in love with the characters.

I'll soon read the third and final volume.

[Chad · Rating 2 out of 5]

Plots of Doom being Hitler- like and the FF visit Heaven looking for Ben Search For Spock-style? No thank you. I should know by now that there are always too many out there interstellar story lines in this comic. My favorite stuff resides in the superhero family dynamic. The short lived Marvel Knights did that best. Also Mike Wieringo: I thought I liked you, but your art is seriously amateur. Even Mr. Fantastic is too rubbery under your pencils.

[Pturingan · Rating 5 out of 5]

One of the best comics I've ever read. Period.

Maybe I'm biased because I'm a big fan of the Fantastic Four but I think this was excellent. There's all kinds of stories here but they're all connected and they continue from the Doctor Doom storyline in the previous volume. There's a political story, a mystical/theological story (!), science-fiction, superhero action and there's lots of humor and heart. A perfect series.

[Elliot · Rating 4 out of 5]

Another great volume from Waid. The two main stories deal very nicely with aftermaths - of Doom's defeat and of death. The FF's rule over Latveria is wonderfully staged both in the country and in the world with ramifying consequences for all the characters. And then a little bit of fun at the Torch's expense, dealing with his drop in popularity.