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Native Tongue #2
The Judas Rose
In the male-dominated society of a future Earth, womankind battles to regain freedom--and preserve all humankind--using Laadan, the secret language of women, to fight for female rights and to organize opposition to a powerful alien confederation
368 pages, Mass Market Paperback
First published February 3, 1987
75 people are currently reading
1200 people want to read
About the author
Suzette Haden Elgin
96 books184 followersSuzette Haden Elgin was an American science fiction author. She founded the Science Fiction Poetry Association, and is considered an important figure in the field of science fiction constructed languages. Elgin was also a linguist; she published non-fiction, of which the best-known is the Gentle Art of Verbal Self-Defense series.
Born in 1936 in Missouri, Elgin attended the University of California, San Diego (UCSD) in the 1960s, and began writing science fiction in order to pay tuition. She has a Ph.D. in linguistics, and was the first UCSD student to ever write two dissertations (on English and Navajo). She created the engineered language Láadan for her Native Tongue science fiction series. A grammar and dictionary was published in 1985. She is a supporter of feminist science fiction, saying "women need to realize that SF is the only genre of literature in which it's possible for a writer to explore the question of what this world would be like if you could get rid of [X], where [X] is filled in with any of the multitude of real world facts that constrain and oppress women. Women need to treasure and support science fiction." [1]
In addition, she published works of shorter fiction. Overlying themes in her work include feminism, linguistics and the impact of language, and peaceful coexistence with nature. Many of her works also draw from her Ozark background and heritage.
Elgin became a professor at her alma mater's cross-town rival, San Diego State University (SDSU). She retired in 1980.
Born in 1936 in Missouri, Elgin attended the University of California, San Diego (UCSD) in the 1960s, and began writing science fiction in order to pay tuition. She has a Ph.D. in linguistics, and was the first UCSD student to ever write two dissertations (on English and Navajo). She created the engineered language Láadan for her Native Tongue science fiction series. A grammar and dictionary was published in 1985. She is a supporter of feminist science fiction, saying "women need to realize that SF is the only genre of literature in which it's possible for a writer to explore the question of what this world would be like if you could get rid of [X], where [X] is filled in with any of the multitude of real world facts that constrain and oppress women. Women need to treasure and support science fiction." [1]
In addition, she published works of shorter fiction. Overlying themes in her work include feminism, linguistics and the impact of language, and peaceful coexistence with nature. Many of her works also draw from her Ozark background and heritage.
Elgin became a professor at her alma mater's cross-town rival, San Diego State University (SDSU). She retired in 1980.
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Displaying 1 - 30 of 99 reviews
July 17, 2023
Jul 17, 9am ~~ This sequel to Native Tongue was not as smooth or as fascinating.
Considering the feminist tone of the first book of this trilogy, I was surprised that the main plot threads this time followed the lives of men. There were no compelling women characters here, except of course for Nazareth, but she is elderly now and not right in the middle of things the way she had been in Native Tongue.
Something else that seemed strange to me was how fast time passed for everyone. Turn a page and all of a sudden the events you just read about had happened many years earlier. Besides that, there were some chapters that introduced people that never showed up again, such as the young wife living out in the colonies and upset because she had to take care of her baby all by herself, with no robot to help. We never see her again, just like we never again see the other young wife whose chapter seemed to be just an excuse for a rant about how men don't want to learn how to satisfy a woman during sex and what women are supposed to do about it.
I was also disappointed by the lives the women led here. Very obedient to the men on the surface, but with a thriving secret agenda that let them feel they really had the power and the control. But did they? If you have to live with two faces, are you really in control of your own life? You are just living a lie. I would have thought that in this book the women would have managed to live without all the spy versus spy manipulation and dishonesty that they were still engaged in.
I did like the ending. The epilogue was a report by the Aliens considering their options for handling Earth and its backward inhabitants. I suppose that in the final book we will see what they decide?
Considering the feminist tone of the first book of this trilogy, I was surprised that the main plot threads this time followed the lives of men. There were no compelling women characters here, except of course for Nazareth, but she is elderly now and not right in the middle of things the way she had been in Native Tongue.
Something else that seemed strange to me was how fast time passed for everyone. Turn a page and all of a sudden the events you just read about had happened many years earlier. Besides that, there were some chapters that introduced people that never showed up again, such as the young wife living out in the colonies and upset because she had to take care of her baby all by herself, with no robot to help. We never see her again, just like we never again see the other young wife whose chapter seemed to be just an excuse for a rant about how men don't want to learn how to satisfy a woman during sex and what women are supposed to do about it.
I was also disappointed by the lives the women led here. Very obedient to the men on the surface, but with a thriving secret agenda that let them feel they really had the power and the control. But did they? If you have to live with two faces, are you really in control of your own life? You are just living a lie. I would have thought that in this book the women would have managed to live without all the spy versus spy manipulation and dishonesty that they were still engaged in.
I did like the ending. The epilogue was a report by the Aliens considering their options for handling Earth and its backward inhabitants. I suppose that in the final book we will see what they decide?
January 27, 2020
I did not enjoy this second part in the Native Tongue Trilogy as much as the first, though I did enjoy it. It felt a bit slower, the fragmented story structure less coherent, its parts a bit drawn out. I also find it fascinating that there's no mention of homosexuality (so far) in the series, which feels a bit unbelievable: none of these women in the Womenhouses are getting down with each other? Really?
Curious to see what book 3 holds.
Curious to see what book 3 holds.
July 20, 2023
I was pleased to discover that The Judas Rose is less depressing than Native Tongue, the first in the trilogy. Like Native Tongue, it makes excellent use of multiple points of view on a future world in which US women have the same legal status as children and a cartel of linguist families translate negotiations with aliens. Nazareth, now elderly, remains a narrator but takes on less of the protagonist duties. She and her companions plan the spread of the women's language invented in Native Tongue beyond the linguist families and into wider society. This process, which involves delightfully duplicitous nuns, drives the plot. Meanwhile linguist families start to become integrated into wider society and the US government wastes masses of resources on ill-thought out research. There are several excellent, wickedly funny scenes in which arrogant men realise they've been absolute idiots. During one such, Haden Elgin comes up with the marvellous phrase, 'as useless as a chocolate computer chip'.
As this is the middle book in a trilogy, it develops and widens the plot and worldbuilding of the first book rather than reaching a denouement. It was great to learn more about religion in gender-segregated America, the alien view of humanity (not positive), and how the linguist family monopoly on alien translation perpetuates itself. The details of the world are cleverly thought out; I particularly loved everything concerning the whales. I am eager to read the third book to find out where things go with the aliens, whose presence suddenly become much more significant in the epilogue. However I found the number of scenes with Heykus Clete a little excessive, as he was such a bore. Perhaps he plays a key part in the final volume? Sister Miriam, on the other hand, was a joy and deserves a trilogy all to herself.
As this is the middle book in a trilogy, it develops and widens the plot and worldbuilding of the first book rather than reaching a denouement. It was great to learn more about religion in gender-segregated America, the alien view of humanity (not positive), and how the linguist family monopoly on alien translation perpetuates itself. The details of the world are cleverly thought out; I particularly loved everything concerning the whales. I am eager to read the third book to find out where things go with the aliens, whose presence suddenly become much more significant in the epilogue. However I found the number of scenes with Heykus Clete a little excessive, as he was such a bore. Perhaps he plays a key part in the final volume? Sister Miriam, on the other hand, was a joy and deserves a trilogy all to herself.
July 1, 2022
Second book in an interesting series. Elgin is very verbose and I sometimes feel like not much is happening in between all the dialogue. I love the concept but I have a very short attention span.
July 31, 2025
I still like Elgin's ideas well enough but this book wasn't as effective a vehicle for them as the first one. I’m hoping book three ties up the many loose ends left here. And maybe also drops some of the religion focus.
January 22, 2008
This title manages to avoid a lot of standard middle-book-in-the-trilogy problems, and is eminently readable and enjoyable; it's very entertaining, and good to settle down in. If I have any particular quibble with it, it's that it's almost too settle-down-in-able; there are entire sections that are fascinating worldbuilding, but don't seem to contribute very strongly to the actual plot -- which doesn't really appear until the very end of the book, although it's fairly apparent when you look back at it. (Elgin's feminist themes are also sometimes clunky, but I suspect it might be a product of the fact that the book was written in the late eighties; the world's changed considerably since then.)
Still, this is a good read, especially for people who are interested in semantics or sociolinguistics.
Still, this is a good read, especially for people who are interested in semantics or sociolinguistics.
July 22, 2022
I enjoyed this immensely, although I did not think that it was as groundbreaking or jaw-dropping as the first book. I have been wondering about the role that the Aliens would play in this feminist dystopian world that Elgin builds, and I'm glad to see that there's a little bit of that coming. Elgin's strength in both this book and the first is her characters, and I am looking forward to more in the last in the trilogy.
August 12, 2025
I loved Native Tongue, but I wanted a clear direction for its sequel. The scene had been set, the linguistic and social battleground of the patriarchy made clear. The B plot involving strange government alien/human baby experiments had created several strange tools for Suzette Haden Elgin to build something with. Most of all, the promise in the title could get the spotlight. Women have developed their ‘native tongue’, their own language, and begun to disseminate it. Can this project succeed in liberation? What does that look like?
Instead, this book sprawls across decades and characters without getting at the heart of that question (or moving into the wide open questions of race and queerness, which as expected remain unexamined). The dissemination of the language Láadan continues, but in a strangely passionless way. The book spends almost all its time circling the POV of men, as the women discovering a new perspective and tool that might change the world do so in the background. Perhaps this is a conscious mirror of the way women exist at the edges of patriarchal stories, a marginalization that also allows secrecy in their rebellion—but it falls flat by giving us insufficient pathways into the experiences and emotional investments of the women at the edges.
In the meantime, many new topics appear. The Christian Church is a huge focus but not an insightful one; the male religious POVs often read as strawmen rather than showing us how they actually justify and construct their abuses. (Versus men in academia, government work, and the medical world, Elgin shoots more accurate shots.) The Soviet—US space colonization race is mentioned many times but never contributes anything interesting, not even a hint of what gender roles are like in the future USSR. We get a few chapters from the perspective of non-Linguist women, including on the frontier, but these—along with some more unusual one-off POVs—show us only more inklings of what might happen. In the end, there are even more threads than at the end of book one, a less coherent story, and such a broad scope in time and space that emotional investment in any single character is more difficult.
All in all, you’ll get more out of this book if you treat it as a look into Elgin’s mind, her interests in these interrelated topics and her critiques of her society, and approach some of its chapters or threads as independent treatments. Personally, I was startled by the standalone Chapter 15. Languageless adults of this kind barely existed in linguistics literature at the time, so I’m sure that Elgin got the idea for this story from my mother, a friend of hers. (My mother eventually published their own nonfiction account: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/9... .)
To the extent the burning question is answered at all—how does Láadan liberate the world?—the answer will disappoint most feminists. I won’t dwell on it, both to avoid spoilers and because I’m not sure the book is convinced by its own hypothesis. The epilogue lays out a more uncertain interpretation of where human culture is going, and the tension between the vastly different ‘evolutionary stages’ its men and women are in. Today few of us would credit sociobiological destiny, but if we recast this in terms of political philosophy—the different societies men and women want to create—the contrast has never been clearer in the era of women’s suffrage. In just the last few years, and across the world, the ideological gap between men and women has shot apart ( https://www.ft.com/content/29fd9b5c-2... ). The next generation will be divided as it comes to power. The ‘crazy feminists’ of the ‘80s were fighting from the fringes to contest a culture, but does this metaphor work anymore, or in place of a single center and its fringes do we have two battle camps? Feminism didn’t need a conlang, it turns out, but it did shape language and worldview, and we might be living through one of its more dramatic effects.
Are we now women of the Lines, segregated not physically but in our understanding of society and where it should go? Can we really change society with the help of ‘a few good men’ or by converting men one-by-one from the other ideological camp? What would it even mean to give up on that approach and accept psychological segregation? I’m not convinced by Elgin’s answers but hell if I have my own.
Instead, this book sprawls across decades and characters without getting at the heart of that question (or moving into the wide open questions of race and queerness, which as expected remain unexamined). The dissemination of the language Láadan continues, but in a strangely passionless way. The book spends almost all its time circling the POV of men, as the women discovering a new perspective and tool that might change the world do so in the background. Perhaps this is a conscious mirror of the way women exist at the edges of patriarchal stories, a marginalization that also allows secrecy in their rebellion—but it falls flat by giving us insufficient pathways into the experiences and emotional investments of the women at the edges.
In the meantime, many new topics appear. The Christian Church is a huge focus but not an insightful one; the male religious POVs often read as strawmen rather than showing us how they actually justify and construct their abuses. (Versus men in academia, government work, and the medical world, Elgin shoots more accurate shots.) The Soviet—US space colonization race is mentioned many times but never contributes anything interesting, not even a hint of what gender roles are like in the future USSR. We get a few chapters from the perspective of non-Linguist women, including on the frontier, but these—along with some more unusual one-off POVs—show us only more inklings of what might happen. In the end, there are even more threads than at the end of book one, a less coherent story, and such a broad scope in time and space that emotional investment in any single character is more difficult.
All in all, you’ll get more out of this book if you treat it as a look into Elgin’s mind, her interests in these interrelated topics and her critiques of her society, and approach some of its chapters or threads as independent treatments. Personally, I was startled by the standalone Chapter 15. Languageless adults of this kind barely existed in linguistics literature at the time, so I’m sure that Elgin got the idea for this story from my mother, a friend of hers. (My mother eventually published their own nonfiction account: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/9... .)
To the extent the burning question is answered at all—how does Láadan liberate the world?—the answer will disappoint most feminists. I won’t dwell on it, both to avoid spoilers and because I’m not sure the book is convinced by its own hypothesis. The epilogue lays out a more uncertain interpretation of where human culture is going, and the tension between the vastly different ‘evolutionary stages’ its men and women are in. Today few of us would credit sociobiological destiny, but if we recast this in terms of political philosophy—the different societies men and women want to create—the contrast has never been clearer in the era of women’s suffrage. In just the last few years, and across the world, the ideological gap between men and women has shot apart ( https://www.ft.com/content/29fd9b5c-2... ). The next generation will be divided as it comes to power. The ‘crazy feminists’ of the ‘80s were fighting from the fringes to contest a culture, but does this metaphor work anymore, or in place of a single center and its fringes do we have two battle camps? Feminism didn’t need a conlang, it turns out, but it did shape language and worldview, and we might be living through one of its more dramatic effects.
Are we now women of the Lines, segregated not physically but in our understanding of society and where it should go? Can we really change society with the help of ‘a few good men’ or by converting men one-by-one from the other ideological camp? What would it even mean to give up on that approach and accept psychological segregation? I’m not convinced by Elgin’s answers but hell if I have my own.
February 12, 2023
A little less interesting than the first book, but still very good.
February 14, 2025
“There can only be one best-dressed woman in any group of women, O.J.,” she had pointed out to him once when he was complaining about her own performance of this obligation, “and all the rest of the women have to be the losers and go home and be tormented about it.”
“Please,” he had said, turning his back to indicate that he couldn’t bear the sight of her. “Do not make yourself even more ridiculous by attempting to express mathematical concepts.” (Judas Rose, Chapter 20)
I love the idea of ling-fi, as somebody called this genre, and after some learning I can confirm that Láadan is a surprisingly well functioning language. Its melodic, soft sound provides an additional benefit, not very common for conlangs. But as far as the story goes, I wish that the people in it were more convincing.
“Please,” he had said, turning his back to indicate that he couldn’t bear the sight of her. “Do not make yourself even more ridiculous by attempting to express mathematical concepts.” (Judas Rose, Chapter 20)
I love the idea of ling-fi, as somebody called this genre, and after some learning I can confirm that Láadan is a surprisingly well functioning language. Its melodic, soft sound provides an additional benefit, not very common for conlangs. But as far as the story goes, I wish that the people in it were more convincing.
August 18, 2023
Der zweite Teil hat mich leider so gar nicht mitgenommen. Viele Leute, viele Orte, teils ohne erkennbaren Zusammenhang... :(
November 1, 2020
3,5/5
«The Judas Rose» està, sense cap mena de dubte, un graó per sota de «Llengua materna». La considero una mena de novel·la de transició, un interludi de 400 pàgines que ens prepara per al desenllaç d'«Earthsong».
Suzette Haden Elgin fa la mateixa aposta que al primer volum de la trilogia, però té pitjors cartes: l'as que suposa el personatge de la Nazareth encara hi és, és cert, però la resta de personatges que ens dóna a conèixer (en són molts i poc o gens relacionats amb els anteriors) no tenen ni de bon tros el desenvolupament i l'atractiu dels personatges de la primera part. L'autora obre massa flancs i en tenca molt pocs, de forma que la nostra atenció es dilueix a mesura que avança la novel·la. De fet trobo que hi ha capítols sencers que sobren (com el de la vida a les colònies o el del sopar al qual conviden uns lingüistes), ja que es podien haver resolt amb un parell de paràgrafs, o una pàgina a molt estirar, enmig d'un dels capítols.
Després de la meravellosa «Llengua materna», la meva sensació com a lector ha estat la de desencís: el làadan ja hi és en tota la seva esplendor, però l'autora no el deixa brillar. Fins a un punt culminant. Arribats aquí l'autora es treu de la màniga dos capítols superbs d'aquells que et fan explotar el cap i et fan exclamar WTF! Però ja és massa tard. Elgin no té temps per desenvolupar-ho i clarament (o això espero) se'ls reserva pel llibre que tanca la trilogia. La sensació és similar a la del primer volum, però en aquell l'autora havia trigat molt per poder construir un univers que ara és de sobra conegut, i l'element catàrtic quan apareixia la sororitat era 100% efectiu. Aquí, però, arriba tard i lleugerament esbravat. Més de 400 pàgines per unes trames que es podien haver resolt en menys de la meitat.
A més la novel·la no resulta ni molt menys atemporal. Massa elements la contextualitzen i l'ancoren a l'època en què va ser escrita, a finals dels 80 (personatges com Ronald Reagan, Bush pare, Ghandi, el papa Juan Pau II... i elements sociopolítics com la URSS), malgrat que la trama succeeix un parell de segles més endavant. No m'empasso que les dècades dels 80 i els 90 fossin tan importants com per deixar petja en la societat que descriu la novel·la. També hi apareix barrejada molta religió, si bé aquest és un element que acaba resultant cabdal en el transcurs de la novel·la i no acaba sobrant.
En definitiva. Novel·la fallida per la seva longitud, no tant pel seu contingut. Entreté (aquesta és la seva funció) però no sorprèn fins al final. I ens deixa a mitges. Caldrà recuperar «Earthsong» per treure'n l'entrellat.
«The Judas Rose» està, sense cap mena de dubte, un graó per sota de «Llengua materna». La considero una mena de novel·la de transició, un interludi de 400 pàgines que ens prepara per al desenllaç d'«Earthsong».
Suzette Haden Elgin fa la mateixa aposta que al primer volum de la trilogia, però té pitjors cartes: l'as que suposa el personatge de la Nazareth encara hi és, és cert, però la resta de personatges que ens dóna a conèixer (en són molts i poc o gens relacionats amb els anteriors) no tenen ni de bon tros el desenvolupament i l'atractiu dels personatges de la primera part. L'autora obre massa flancs i en tenca molt pocs, de forma que la nostra atenció es dilueix a mesura que avança la novel·la. De fet trobo que hi ha capítols sencers que sobren (com el de la vida a les colònies o el del sopar al qual conviden uns lingüistes), ja que es podien haver resolt amb un parell de paràgrafs, o una pàgina a molt estirar, enmig d'un dels capítols.
Després de la meravellosa «Llengua materna», la meva sensació com a lector ha estat la de desencís: el làadan ja hi és en tota la seva esplendor, però l'autora no el deixa brillar. Fins a un punt culminant. Arribats aquí l'autora es treu de la màniga dos capítols superbs d'aquells que et fan explotar el cap i et fan exclamar WTF! Però ja és massa tard. Elgin no té temps per desenvolupar-ho i clarament (o això espero) se'ls reserva pel llibre que tanca la trilogia. La sensació és similar a la del primer volum, però en aquell l'autora havia trigat molt per poder construir un univers que ara és de sobra conegut, i l'element catàrtic quan apareixia la sororitat era 100% efectiu. Aquí, però, arriba tard i lleugerament esbravat. Més de 400 pàgines per unes trames que es podien haver resolt en menys de la meitat.
A més la novel·la no resulta ni molt menys atemporal. Massa elements la contextualitzen i l'ancoren a l'època en què va ser escrita, a finals dels 80 (personatges com Ronald Reagan, Bush pare, Ghandi, el papa Juan Pau II... i elements sociopolítics com la URSS), malgrat que la trama succeeix un parell de segles més endavant. No m'empasso que les dècades dels 80 i els 90 fossin tan importants com per deixar petja en la societat que descriu la novel·la. També hi apareix barrejada molta religió, si bé aquest és un element que acaba resultant cabdal en el transcurs de la novel·la i no acaba sobrant.
En definitiva. Novel·la fallida per la seva longitud, no tant pel seu contingut. Entreté (aquesta és la seva funció) però no sorprèn fins al final. I ens deixa a mitges. Caldrà recuperar «Earthsong» per treure'n l'entrellat.
April 8, 2018
What SHE got right in the first book, she got wrong in the second.
It is still the same white feminist speculative fiction. However, plot setup and world development are distorted to some self-contradicting complexity there.
In the first book, we were told that most people are . And now we suddenly learn that most people are , and it is not as if we simply didn't notice it in the first book; it was explicitly said not to be the case there.
Or take another example: . That's a huge plot twist, and I'd guess that SHE did not have it in mind when writing the first book.
Sometimes, it is just implausible.
And the entire book is full of those. As the sequel to book one, it does not really get us anywhere and does not develop the plot any further; and as a stand-alone novel, it does not tell anything of interest.
It is still the same white feminist speculative fiction. However, plot setup and world development are distorted to some self-contradicting complexity there.
In the first book, we were told that most people are . And now we suddenly learn that most people are , and it is not as if we simply didn't notice it in the first book; it was explicitly said not to be the case there.
Or take another example: . That's a huge plot twist, and I'd guess that SHE did not have it in mind when writing the first book.
Sometimes, it is just implausible.
And the entire book is full of those. As the sequel to book one, it does not really get us anywhere and does not develop the plot any further; and as a stand-alone novel, it does not tell anything of interest.
February 17, 2021
7/52 books read in 2021.
1/12 bookshelf books read in 2021.
Finally finished.
I have this weird thing where reading a book for something else (school, uni, bookclub) makes it so much more difficult to read or finish the text.
This reading experience also suffered because of this predicament, but I finished.
I really liked part 1 Native Tongue and loved it more when I reread it (you can read my original review here X.)
My love for this second book isn't as grand. I do have to say that the further I got the more I liked it and, without the first book to compare it to, it would maybe have gotten a higher rating since it is quite good and interesting to read.
As always I recommend you read a physical copy since that lessened the confusion for me and gave me the option to reference back whenever I needed to.
1/12 bookshelf books read in 2021.
Finally finished.
I have this weird thing where reading a book for something else (school, uni, bookclub) makes it so much more difficult to read or finish the text.
This reading experience also suffered because of this predicament, but I finished.
I really liked part 1 Native Tongue and loved it more when I reread it (you can read my original review here X.)
My love for this second book isn't as grand. I do have to say that the further I got the more I liked it and, without the first book to compare it to, it would maybe have gotten a higher rating since it is quite good and interesting to read.
As always I recommend you read a physical copy since that lessened the confusion for me and gave me the option to reference back whenever I needed to.
September 11, 2020
True rating: ~3.5
I can't deny that I enjoy the idea of women working together to bamboozle the patriarchy AND the Catholic church. That being said, this second installment in the Native Tongue trilogy was decidedly less enjoyable than the first. Suffering from many of the same issues most 2nd books in a trilogy have, the themes addressed didn't have the same novelty as in the first installment and it's apparent that much of the plot won't be wrapped up until the third book. I also wish there was representation for non-heteronormative people in this near-future setting, but maybe that's too much to ask of an author writing through the lens of the 1980s? One final note, I'd strongly suggest reading these books as opposed to listening to them, as the audiobook narrator is very challenging, in my opinion.
I can't deny that I enjoy the idea of women working together to bamboozle the patriarchy AND the Catholic church. That being said, this second installment in the Native Tongue trilogy was decidedly less enjoyable than the first. Suffering from many of the same issues most 2nd books in a trilogy have, the themes addressed didn't have the same novelty as in the first installment and it's apparent that much of the plot won't be wrapped up until the third book. I also wish there was representation for non-heteronormative people in this near-future setting, but maybe that's too much to ask of an author writing through the lens of the 1980s? One final note, I'd strongly suggest reading these books as opposed to listening to them, as the audiobook narrator is very challenging, in my opinion.
August 25, 2018
In a future America where women have no legal rights, aliens are major economic players, and linguists are in high demand, the women of the Lines (the 13 linguist families) infiltrate the Catholic Church to secretly spread the feminist language they’ve spent years laboring to create. I️ loved this sequel to Native Tongue and Elgin’s mix of linguistics and aliens and priests and evangelicals and government plots and madcap feminist conspiracies. Like Native Tongue, The Judas Rose is a product of the 1980s and its portrayal of gender and sexuality is a product of the 1980s. There may be some plot holes too. I️ don’t care, this series is fascinating and fun and unexpected, and I️ love that a linguist was dreaming it up in the 80s.
This entire review has been hidden because of spoilers.
August 23, 2019
A continuation of the story with its frightening premise, developing into a fully fleshed-out dystopian tale through this volume--discouragingly not so far from our current state of affairs. Elgin seems to fear the Reagan-like comparisons from the 1980s, little could she have suspected the current environs
March 1, 2025
this book should have been 200 pages shorter. the last 20 pages were really REALLY good and returned to what was so phenomenal about the first book, because the premise is genuinely so intriguing and the commentary is exquisite. but i truly think they could have cut out nearly every chapter narrated by heykus and improved the book 100 fold. those chapters lacked anything to do with the plot or commentary on language/religion/gender/violence, even compared to other chapters narrated by the men in the book, and somehow heykus was probably 60-70% of this book. i wanted to love this book so much, kind of bummed tbh :(
June 27, 2025
This trilogy that borders on the masterpiece in my opinion keeps on getting better and better. This second phase of the project run by Nazareth, expands to involve outstanding characters both terrestrial and alien. I have already started reading the last volume in the series because I can't stop.
Prosegue questa trilogia che rasenta il capolavoro secondo me. In questa seconda fase del progetto gestito da Nazareth si allarga fino a coinvolgere dei personaggi eccezionali sia terrestri che alieni. Ho giá cominciato a leggere l'ultimo volume della serie perché non riesco a fermarmi.
Prosegue questa trilogia che rasenta il capolavoro secondo me. In questa seconda fase del progetto gestito da Nazareth si allarga fino a coinvolgere dei personaggi eccezionali sia terrestri che alieni. Ho giá cominciato a leggere l'ultimo volume della serie perché non riesco a fermarmi.
January 10, 2025
4.5 -- An amazing, challenging read. This 1980s trilogy should be a must-read for all feminists. We still have so far to go! 😭😭😭
November 29, 2025
not as good as the first but I'm intrigued about what happens next. interested in how many words for love we have in English vs how many we have for violence
February 27, 2024
A great continuation of "Native Tongue" with a superb mix of languages, religion, and conspiracy. Loved it!
October 22, 2025
Elgin's constructed language Láadan -- a feminine equivalent to the overly masculine Klingon language from Star Trek -- becomes the center of this book, with one of the main plotlines being its investigation by the Catholic Church & their attempt to strip any blasphemous feminism from the Láadan translation of the King James Bible.
Elgin demonstrates the feminine beauty of Láadan by having one of its characters break down the sentence "Boóbin Na delith lethath oma Nathanan" -- the Láadan translation for "Thou anointest my head with oil" -- morpheme by morpheme, its direct translation to English being "Thou braidest my hair with Thine own hands."
Reading that passage brought a small sensation of grief to me as I have never been (and pending a wild trip to Turkey, never will be) able to have my hair braided. It's something I've seen done before but something I've never been privileged to take part in. I was able immediately to comprehend the innate femininity of the translation & how that phrase (and how many countless others?) could never originate in a masculine patriarchal world.
This is one of the best sci-fi series I have ever read, I hope that I am able to convince some of the fellow readers I know to give it a go.
Elgin demonstrates the feminine beauty of Láadan by having one of its characters break down the sentence "Boóbin Na delith lethath oma Nathanan" -- the Láadan translation for "Thou anointest my head with oil" -- morpheme by morpheme, its direct translation to English being "Thou braidest my hair with Thine own hands."
Reading that passage brought a small sensation of grief to me as I have never been (and pending a wild trip to Turkey, never will be) able to have my hair braided. It's something I've seen done before but something I've never been privileged to take part in. I was able immediately to comprehend the innate femininity of the translation & how that phrase (and how many countless others?) could never originate in a masculine patriarchal world.
This is one of the best sci-fi series I have ever read, I hope that I am able to convince some of the fellow readers I know to give it a go.
December 5, 2019
Après l'immense force narrative et intellectuelle qui a poussé le premier roman, Native Tongue, on aurait pu croire que le deuxième tome de la trilogie pourrait être légèrement moins intéressant que le premier. Que nenni!!
The Judas Rose propose une réflexion sociale beaucoup plus large sur le monde dystopique, avec une plus grande variété de personnages, d'enjeux, va beaucoup plus en détails sur les relations entre extraterrestres et humains, parlent des colonies, explorent les aspirations patriarcales et celles des femmes linguistes après avoir créer le gynolecte afin de le pousser à l'ensemble des femmes (et comment vont-elles pouvoir le faire en étant isolées dans des maisons closes).
Nous retrouvons pas mal tous les personnages du tome précédent, qui vieillissent, pris dans des "complots" de plus en plus ourdis par les femmes et les hommes (avec les femmes toujours deux pas en avant dans des machinations abracadabrantes et tellement jouissive lorsque dévoilées!!!). Je ne me risquerais pas à une analyse littéraire pour le moment, la postface du roman est honnêtement très intéressante à cet égard et souvent reprend et élargi la réflexion du premier roman et ma première critique de Native Tongue reste actuelle. Le thème de la non-violence, et de la violence, est cependant la grande nouveauté philosophique du roman, avec de plus en plus d'attention qui lui est porté et des réflexions entre le langage et l'action qui sont posées de manière plus concrète. L'épilogue est on ne peut plus clair à cet égard aussi.
Ce tome a cependant quelques écueils à l'égard d'une certaine essentialisation qui semble parfois émerger, même s'il semble s'agit d'un "jeu" pour se protéger, je ressens un doute grandissant face au double personnages des femmes des Lignes à la fois porteuse d'un nouveau language, mais aussi violentées de 1 001 manière sans vraiment s'y opposer autrement que par le rire et l'espoir. J'espère que Earthsong explorera un peu mieux cette question d'une potentielle mutation de la pensée à l'international un jour puisque nous sommes toujours complètement ancrée dans une dystopie et l'espoir des femmes de l'utilisation d'un nouveau discours s'échelonne sur des siècles plutôt que dans un futur proche et accessible pour elle. C'est peut-être le danger de l'intellectualisation du langage ou de l'approche, d'un autre côté il faut s'assurer que le langage soit diffusé et pas détruit avant d'éclore ; de l'autre on semble hésiter autant que les premières créatrices du language n'osaient pas l' "officialiser" de peur qu'il ne soit pas fini.
Ça reste une toute aussi fascinante lecture que le premier!!
The Judas Rose propose une réflexion sociale beaucoup plus large sur le monde dystopique, avec une plus grande variété de personnages, d'enjeux, va beaucoup plus en détails sur les relations entre extraterrestres et humains, parlent des colonies, explorent les aspirations patriarcales et celles des femmes linguistes après avoir créer le gynolecte afin de le pousser à l'ensemble des femmes (et comment vont-elles pouvoir le faire en étant isolées dans des maisons closes).
Nous retrouvons pas mal tous les personnages du tome précédent, qui vieillissent, pris dans des "complots" de plus en plus ourdis par les femmes et les hommes (avec les femmes toujours deux pas en avant dans des machinations abracadabrantes et tellement jouissive lorsque dévoilées!!!). Je ne me risquerais pas à une analyse littéraire pour le moment, la postface du roman est honnêtement très intéressante à cet égard et souvent reprend et élargi la réflexion du premier roman et ma première critique de Native Tongue reste actuelle. Le thème de la non-violence, et de la violence, est cependant la grande nouveauté philosophique du roman, avec de plus en plus d'attention qui lui est porté et des réflexions entre le langage et l'action qui sont posées de manière plus concrète. L'épilogue est on ne peut plus clair à cet égard aussi.
Ce tome a cependant quelques écueils à l'égard d'une certaine essentialisation qui semble parfois émerger, même s'il semble s'agit d'un "jeu" pour se protéger, je ressens un doute grandissant face au double personnages des femmes des Lignes à la fois porteuse d'un nouveau language, mais aussi violentées de 1 001 manière sans vraiment s'y opposer autrement que par le rire et l'espoir. J'espère que Earthsong explorera un peu mieux cette question d'une potentielle mutation de la pensée à l'international un jour puisque nous sommes toujours complètement ancrée dans une dystopie et l'espoir des femmes de l'utilisation d'un nouveau discours s'échelonne sur des siècles plutôt que dans un futur proche et accessible pour elle. C'est peut-être le danger de l'intellectualisation du langage ou de l'approche, d'un autre côté il faut s'assurer que le langage soit diffusé et pas détruit avant d'éclore ; de l'autre on semble hésiter autant que les premières créatrices du language n'osaient pas l' "officialiser" de peur qu'il ne soit pas fini.
Ça reste une toute aussi fascinante lecture que le premier!!
April 6, 2021
Not as intriguing as the Native Tongue...
January 5, 2025
Wow. Okay, where to begin. To sum it up: Feminist speculative fiction with political intrigue, religious gymnastics, and linguistics to boot? A book after my own soul. I loved the first and enjoyed the second, S.H.E. did it again. That said, I have a much stronger critique on this one than I did in Native Tongue.
For starters, this book was significantly different from the first in the trilogy in two ways: (1) it was heavily based in religious politics rather than government ones, although the government did still play a role, and (2) there was a much more fractured progression of the plot. That is to say, there were many more POVs, many more plot lines happening all at once, and a lot of jumping between timelines in order to discuss the way those plots interacted.
Let's start with number one—I LOVED it! As someone who grew up in the church and regularly encountered the sexism embedded in the culture, it was stunning to see it brought to life so boldly. The religious language brought me straight back to Bible school. It's also interesting to see the Bible's translation as a method for spreading “radical feminist heresy,” as the priests so enjoy saying, considering the role of Bible translations in manipulating popular opinion and perpetrating bigotry throughout history.
As for number two, I have mixed feelings. First and foremost, I have to say that only S.H.E. could manage to write prose so capturing that I would maintain interest through that many POVs. Yet, here we are. I was genuinely enthralled with this book and could not put it down, but there were also times when S.H.E. would introduce a completely new character/POV with only 100 pages left in the book. In hindsight, I see where every angle came together to form the whole, but my God (no pun intended) it tested my patience. I'm not sure that a reader who does not share my passion for linguistics and intricate conspiracies would have faired so well, so be warned. Although if you enjoyed the first, I think you'll survive.
I wanted to also touch briefly on the issues I raised with the first book, namely race and sexuality. Race was, for the very first time in the series, mentioned here in book two, but quite disappointingly. It was the sum of one paragraph explaining that racism doesn't exist anymore, the end. Felt like a huge cop out, probably inspired by criticism from Native Tongue. As for sexuality, somehow it became even more outrageous that there is not a single lesbian mentioned here than in the first book. Like, are you KIDDING ME? Complexes filled with man-hating women of all ages who are sexually frustrated and learning to embrace the beauty of female friendship? Honestly.
Okay, now for the ending. What the actual fuck. Before the epilogue: I felt great. I felt cathartic. A feel-good, hopeful, everything-is-looking-up ending. After the epilogue: Crying, vomiting, should I give up all hope, what is there to life. WHY WOULD YOU DO THAT TO ME? This is why I am terrified to read Earthsong (book #3). I don't know if I'm masochistic enough to willingly submit myself to that kind of torture.
Wish me luck.
For starters, this book was significantly different from the first in the trilogy in two ways: (1) it was heavily based in religious politics rather than government ones, although the government did still play a role, and (2) there was a much more fractured progression of the plot. That is to say, there were many more POVs, many more plot lines happening all at once, and a lot of jumping between timelines in order to discuss the way those plots interacted.
Let's start with number one—I LOVED it! As someone who grew up in the church and regularly encountered the sexism embedded in the culture, it was stunning to see it brought to life so boldly. The religious language brought me straight back to Bible school. It's also interesting to see the Bible's translation as a method for spreading “radical feminist heresy,” as the priests so enjoy saying, considering the role of Bible translations in manipulating popular opinion and perpetrating bigotry throughout history.
As for number two, I have mixed feelings. First and foremost, I have to say that only S.H.E. could manage to write prose so capturing that I would maintain interest through that many POVs. Yet, here we are. I was genuinely enthralled with this book and could not put it down, but there were also times when S.H.E. would introduce a completely new character/POV with only 100 pages left in the book. In hindsight, I see where every angle came together to form the whole, but my God (no pun intended) it tested my patience. I'm not sure that a reader who does not share my passion for linguistics and intricate conspiracies would have faired so well, so be warned. Although if you enjoyed the first, I think you'll survive.
I wanted to also touch briefly on the issues I raised with the first book, namely race and sexuality. Race was, for the very first time in the series, mentioned here in book two, but quite disappointingly. It was the sum of one paragraph explaining that racism doesn't exist anymore, the end. Felt like a huge cop out, probably inspired by criticism from Native Tongue. As for sexuality, somehow it became even more outrageous that there is not a single lesbian mentioned here than in the first book. Like, are you KIDDING ME? Complexes filled with man-hating women of all ages who are sexually frustrated and learning to embrace the beauty of female friendship? Honestly.
Okay, now for the ending. What the actual fuck. Before the epilogue: I felt great. I felt cathartic. A feel-good, hopeful, everything-is-looking-up ending. After the epilogue: Crying, vomiting, should I give up all hope, what is there to life. WHY WOULD YOU DO THAT TO ME? This is why I am terrified to read Earthsong (book #3). I don't know if I'm masochistic enough to willingly submit myself to that kind of torture.
Wish me luck.
September 7, 2025
I appreciated that this book gave us context as to the timeline of change within this world - only 60 years, and the women were practicing and spreading Laadán, while the men of Government Work, the Linguists, and the general society continued, uninterrupted in their ultimately unsuccessful power grabs for the known universe and their interfacing of an infant with a non-humanoid alien.
After reading the book and the the afterword of Susan Squier and Julie Vedder, I thought about how this book discussed the essentialism of gender and how that was just part of second wave feminism. I thought about how a trans man or trans woman would operate in this world. They, of course, would face a lot of transphobia, but where would they live, considering a cis girl's move to Womanhouse is when she gets her first period. Would a trans woman not require a chaperone and vice versa for a trans man due to their sex assigned at birth? This book series operates on binaries, what we knew and understood in second wave feminism: Alien vs Terran, man vs woman, Linguist vs non-Linguist, Protestant vs Catholic, etc. However, as we learn through this book, language has the ability to harm and be violent. By posing language as a binary, (Laadán vs every other male Terran language), violence is still done by restricting who is able to learn a nonviolent language in the first place, cis men included. I assume Earthsong will work to remedy that.
Reading this book reminded me that social justice movements are never perfect, and that we must continue to work on them and the ideologies present to better those movements. Love this series.
Also all those women in two houses all to themselves? Girl where is the lesbianism. Be so serious.
After reading the book and the the afterword of Susan Squier and Julie Vedder, I thought about how this book discussed the essentialism of gender and how that was just part of second wave feminism. I thought about how a trans man or trans woman would operate in this world. They, of course, would face a lot of transphobia, but where would they live, considering a cis girl's move to Womanhouse is when she gets her first period. Would a trans woman not require a chaperone and vice versa for a trans man due to their sex assigned at birth? This book series operates on binaries, what we knew and understood in second wave feminism: Alien vs Terran, man vs woman, Linguist vs non-Linguist, Protestant vs Catholic, etc. However, as we learn through this book, language has the ability to harm and be violent. By posing language as a binary, (Laadán vs every other male Terran language), violence is still done by restricting who is able to learn a nonviolent language in the first place, cis men included. I assume Earthsong will work to remedy that.
Reading this book reminded me that social justice movements are never perfect, and that we must continue to work on them and the ideologies present to better those movements. Love this series.
Also all those women in two houses all to themselves? Girl where is the lesbianism. Be so serious.
April 21, 2018
This book was actually easier to read than the last one—and that wasn't so much a matter of it being written any differently as it was of simply already being acclimated to the author's writing style. So yeah, there's still a lot of asshole men to deal with, and the actual plot that was advertised in the synopsis is barely even mentioned until almost halfway through the book, but this time, I was braced for that, and willing to just go along for the ride.
The Aliens' motivations were not that hard to figure out, even well before I reached the ending. I did enjoy reading about the subversive activity of the linguists, nurses, and nuns all working together, and the elaborate "plans within plans within plans" was a great plot device. I was a little uneasy at the use of the "Judas Rose" herself, in that she was deliberately conceived, born, and raised to do this one job, and... apparently that's not a problem and she's perfectly okay with it? There were also a few loose ends that never got tied up and story fragments that never went anywhere, and while I can accept that some of them work for purely narrative purposes, there were still a few others that were just left hanging—whatever happened with Ham Klander's kid?
Anyway, it was still good to see at the end the ways in which Laadan actually is changing the world, and more specifically the relations between men and women— would have had a far harsher outcome had it happened in the previous book, for one. So yes, had some problems and flaws but still worth continuing with the series.
The Aliens' motivations were not that hard to figure out, even well before I reached the ending. I did enjoy reading about the subversive activity of the linguists, nurses, and nuns all working together, and the elaborate "plans within plans within plans" was a great plot device. I was a little uneasy at the use of the "Judas Rose" herself, in that she was deliberately conceived, born, and raised to do this one job, and... apparently that's not a problem and she's perfectly okay with it? There were also a few loose ends that never got tied up and story fragments that never went anywhere, and while I can accept that some of them work for purely narrative purposes, there were still a few others that were just left hanging—whatever happened with Ham Klander's kid?
Anyway, it was still good to see at the end the ways in which Laadan actually is changing the world, and more specifically the relations between men and women— would have had a far harsher outcome had it happened in the previous book, for one. So yes, had some problems and flaws but still worth continuing with the series.
July 25, 2022
Hatred was an index of your power; the more truly powerful you were, the more intense the hatred. Only women wanted to be "liked". But the Aliens didn't hate them. Not at all. The Aliens thought they were cute.
The second book is a solid continuation of the first one, Elgin keeps being great in her strong suits and not so great in her weaker ones. The way she can bring her characters alive is uncanny and I believe than in that is her biggest strength. Her observation of societal behaviors sometimes laced with almost undetectable irony (so indetectable that I'm not even sure it's truly there) reminded me of Jane Austen's style... if she wrote feminist dystopia. I thought that it was better narratively executed than the first book, but it's still very slow and doesn't bring that much new themes, so I can understand why most people view it as weaker than the Native Tongue. I actually probably liked this one a little bit better for the simple reason that The Judas Rose is much funnier than the first one. Like:
I really enjoyed reading this book so much. Sometimes it is nearly too depressing to bear (for my taste), but still, definitely recommend to anyone interested in feminist classics.
April 13, 2022
Así como en la primera parte estuvo Michaela Landry, la enfermera, en esta segunda parte más compañeras de profesión se unen, así como Sor Miriam Rose quien es designada por las autoridades católicas para investigar el láadan y sus características con el objetivo de determinar si es una herejía o no. La conocemos a partir de las entrevistas que tiene con el padre Dorien y como él, nos sorprendemos con el giro que toma en el desenlace de la historia.
Por otro lado tenemos a Heykus Joshua Clete un funcionario del gobierno que desea tener el poder de los lingüistas para comunicarse con los alienígenas pero cuyos planes no tienen el resultado que desea. La manera en la que las personas no lingüistas empiezan a acercarse a los idiomas extraterrestres, así como los experimentos que proponen suenan bien en abstracto pero cuando los lleva a la práctica no. Además su interés religioso oculto no le permite ver las situaciones con claridad.
Lo que más me gusta es cómo presenta los temas de lingüística dentro de la trama: la morfología, el léxico, la gramática y el proceso para adquirir el lenguaje, así como la pasión con la que los personajes se relacionan (o no) con el aprendizaje de la lenguas y la disciplina que se vive en las Líneas. Y en ese mismo tema entra una de las hipótesis propuesta en el libro: los idiomas humanos son inadecuados para expresar las percepciones de las mujeres: entre los ejemplos más claros está el momento en el que Jo-Bethany quiere expresar una pregunta que en su mente es muy sencilla pero no es capaz de encontrar las palabras para decirla.
Por otro lado tenemos a Heykus Joshua Clete un funcionario del gobierno que desea tener el poder de los lingüistas para comunicarse con los alienígenas pero cuyos planes no tienen el resultado que desea. La manera en la que las personas no lingüistas empiezan a acercarse a los idiomas extraterrestres, así como los experimentos que proponen suenan bien en abstracto pero cuando los lleva a la práctica no. Además su interés religioso oculto no le permite ver las situaciones con claridad.
Lo que más me gusta es cómo presenta los temas de lingüística dentro de la trama: la morfología, el léxico, la gramática y el proceso para adquirir el lenguaje, así como la pasión con la que los personajes se relacionan (o no) con el aprendizaje de la lenguas y la disciplina que se vive en las Líneas. Y en ese mismo tema entra una de las hipótesis propuesta en el libro: los idiomas humanos son inadecuados para expresar las percepciones de las mujeres: entre los ejemplos más claros está el momento en el que Jo-Bethany quiere expresar una pregunta que en su mente es muy sencilla pero no es capaz de encontrar las palabras para decirla.
This entire review has been hidden because of spoilers.
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