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Evolving out of Eden: Christian Responses to Evolution
It is now beyond any scientific dispute that all life evolved by a natural process of random mutation and DNA crossover, genetic drift, horizontal gene transfer, and natural selection. We are the highly refined but happenstance products of blind experimentation carried out in a design laboratory that has been running itself for billions of years. We are first cousins to the chimpanzees, descendants not of any biblical Adam but of lumbering hairy ancestors who were building fires and hand axes in Africa hundreds of thousands of years ago. Accepting this has been especially difficult for Christianity, because evolution challenges many foundational doctrines. Concerned believers are walking a troubled middle path between Genesis and genetics, threatened with the loss of a cherished faith on the one hand or their intellectual integrity on the other. Numerous science-savvy theologians have emerged to help them on their way, a whole cottage industry of guides working to establish their own different trails through the hostile territory outside Eden’s comforting fairyland. Writing with the combination of high criticism and low humor that fans have come to love from Robert M. Price, he and co-author Edwin A. Suominen survey the apologetic landscape and offer their own frank reckoning of evolution’s significance for Christian belief.
About the Author
This book began as a collaboration between Robert M. Price, an atheist, and Edwin A. Suominen, then a believing but troubled Christian who was wrestling with what he perceived as a grave conflict between evolution and his inherited faith. Having both accepted the reality of evolution, they agreed to research its theological implications and the various ways that Christian writers have tried to smooth things over. Bob holds a PhD in systematic theology from Drew University (1981) and a PhD in New Testament from Drew (1993). He is the author of over a dozen books and his own New Testament translation. He occasionally attends Episcopalian services where he sings, enjoys the stained glass, and keeps his mouth shut. Ed holds a B.S. in Electrical Engineering from the University of Washington (1995), where his senior project wound up being the subject of fourteen U.S. patents, among several others he holds. He has retired from practice as a registered patent agent to write books rather than patents, for this one devoting himself to a year of personal study about evolutionary science and its intersection with theology.
About the Author
This book began as a collaboration between Robert M. Price, an atheist, and Edwin A. Suominen, then a believing but troubled Christian who was wrestling with what he perceived as a grave conflict between evolution and his inherited faith. Having both accepted the reality of evolution, they agreed to research its theological implications and the various ways that Christian writers have tried to smooth things over. Bob holds a PhD in systematic theology from Drew University (1981) and a PhD in New Testament from Drew (1993). He is the author of over a dozen books and his own New Testament translation. He occasionally attends Episcopalian services where he sings, enjoys the stained glass, and keeps his mouth shut. Ed holds a B.S. in Electrical Engineering from the University of Washington (1995), where his senior project wound up being the subject of fourteen U.S. patents, among several others he holds. He has retired from practice as a registered patent agent to write books rather than patents, for this one devoting himself to a year of personal study about evolutionary science and its intersection with theology.
352 pages, Paperback
First published March 15, 2013
8 people are currently reading
126 people want to read
About the author
Robert M. Price
405 books239 followersRobert McNair Price is an American theologian and writer. He teaches philosophy and religion at the Johnnie Colemon Theological Seminary, is professor of biblical criticism at the Center for Inquiry Institute, and the author of a number of books on theology and the historicity of Jesus, asserting the Christ myth theory.
A former Baptist minister, he was the editor of the Journal of Higher Criticism from 1994 until it ceased publication in 2003. He has also written extensively about the Cthulhu Mythos, a "shared universe" created by H.P. Lovecraft.
A former Baptist minister, he was the editor of the Journal of Higher Criticism from 1994 until it ceased publication in 2003. He has also written extensively about the Cthulhu Mythos, a "shared universe" created by H.P. Lovecraft.
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August 29, 2013
Evolving out of Eden: Christian Responses to Evolution by Robert M. Price and Edwin A. Suominen
“Evolving out of Eden" is an outstanding book that demonstrates how the overwhelming strength of evolution has challenged the very core foundational doctrines of Christianity. This book is a comprehensive look at the theological attempts to deal with the impact of evolution for Christian belief and the authors’ well-grounded direct retorts. Robert M. Price and Edwin A. Suominen, provide readers with an accessible, intellectual treat. This 352-page book is beautifully laid out around three main branches of theology impacted by evolution: 1. The Word, 2. The Creature, and 3. The Creator.
Positives:
1. Engaging, well-researched and well-written book that is accessible to the masses. A touch of humor to boot.
2. Two of my favorite topics wrapped beautifully in one book: the grand theory of evolution and religion.
3. An excellent format. Each chapter begins with a great chapter-appropriate quote (epigraph) followed up immediately with a short narrative of what to expect in said chapter.
4. The authors rely and make excellent use of the minds of giants. Great quotes abound, “It’s hard for any attempt at objectivity to compete with felt knowledge, whose power cannot be underestimated, even when it exists independently of reason or any confirming evidence.” – Robert Burton.
5. An excellent introduction that captures the essence of the book and what is at stake here. They introduce the types of creationists
6. The grand and elegant theory of evolution once again takes center stage. No matter how many books I read about evolution it never ceases to amaze me its power of explanation. This book is a wonderful confirmation. Many great examples.
7. One of the pleasures of this book is the enjoyment of reading clever retorts, “If we came from apes, why are there still apes around? To which one might well ask why there are still Jews if Christianity came from Judaism.” A bonus, “Saying that new species don’t evolve because you haven’t see it happen is like sitting on a lawn for an afternoon and concluding that the grass isn’t growing.”
8. The irrelevance of the Bible in our scientific age. A look at three aspects of the biblical universe: the heaven above, the earth below, and the structure propping it all up. Great stuff!
9. Original Sin, young-earth creationism get demolished! “But the reality of evolution erases all traces of a historical Adam, and therefore of any historical Fall.”
10. The case for man’s primate origins has been bolstered by a prodigious amount of scientific evidence. “With just a few exceptions, the chromosomes from humans, chimpanzees, gorillas, and orangutans are highly similar and can be aligned with one another.” “We are what our genes evolved us to be…”
11. Good use of evolution to answer or contemplate the big philosophical questions. It also introduces new questions or implications, “So let’s take a moment to shine a flashlight on the never-mentioned implications of the belief of many theistic evolutionists, that the human soul appeared somewhere in the evolution of Homo sapiens from these uncouth hairy ancestors.”
12. An interesting look at Christian doctrines. Thought-provoking and challenges to theists. Price at his strongest.
13. A look at sin in general. “There is virtually no known human behavior that we call sin that is not also found among nonhuman animals.”
14. The argument from design gets battered around. “What’s amusing about Paley’s watch argument is that it defeats itself. Let’s imagine his original situation. He’s walking in a field and discovers the watch. It looks out of place, different from the plants and rocks. But if it looks different from nature because it looks designed, then nature must not look designed. You can’t argue on the one hand that the watch looks remarkable and stands out from the natural background, and on the other that the watch looks similar to nature, so both must be designed.” Brilliant!
15. Vestigial evolutionary traits…always a personal favorite topic.
16. Quantum apologetics. Say what? Oh it’s covered too. It’s role in evolution.
17. Natural selection and animal cruelty. Parasites!
18. An entire chapter on how Christian evolutionists handle damage control. “Those who fear the facts will forever try to discredit the fact-finders.” Great stuff.
19. Excellent chapter on conclusions. Cultural evolution, memes.
20. Links and a comprehensive bibliography.
Negatives:
1. A cast of characters or a table illustrating the main beliefs of said characters mentioned frequently in the book would have given readers a helpful reference. Once you get into the rhythm of the book, it becomes less of an issue. The introduction does a great job of presenting the main characters of the book but a cheat-sheet of sorts never hurts.
2. It had to end and having to buy extra copies for friends!
In summary, this was a personal treat. I enjoyed this book from cover to cover and wished I had read it the day it came out. The authors did a wonderful job of responding eloquently and directly to evolution-savvy theologians. The concept of Original Sin gets demolished along with the design argument. But it’s the desperate attempt to reconcile faith with science that takes the most direct blow. A lot of fun to read while simultaneously obtaining knowledge, the wise thing to do is to get this book. I highly recommend it!
Further recommendations: “Why Evolution Is True” by Jerry A. Coyne, “Evolution vs Creationism” by Eugenie C. Scott, “The Rocks Don’t Lie” by David R. Montgomery, “Decoding the Language of God” by George C. Cunningham, “The God Argument” by A.C. Grayling, “Why Does the World Exist?” by Jim Holt, “The Bible Unearthed” by Israel Finkelstein and Neil Asher Silberman, “Religion Explained” by Pascal Boyer, “The Fallacy of Fine-Tuning” by Victor J. Stenger, “Monkey Girl” by Edward Humes, “Relics of Eden” by Daniel J. Fairbanks, “Only a Theory” by Kenneth R. Miller, “Why Evolution Works (and Creationism Fails) by Matt Young, and “The Making of the Fittest” by Sean B. Carroll.
“Evolving out of Eden" is an outstanding book that demonstrates how the overwhelming strength of evolution has challenged the very core foundational doctrines of Christianity. This book is a comprehensive look at the theological attempts to deal with the impact of evolution for Christian belief and the authors’ well-grounded direct retorts. Robert M. Price and Edwin A. Suominen, provide readers with an accessible, intellectual treat. This 352-page book is beautifully laid out around three main branches of theology impacted by evolution: 1. The Word, 2. The Creature, and 3. The Creator.
Positives:
1. Engaging, well-researched and well-written book that is accessible to the masses. A touch of humor to boot.
2. Two of my favorite topics wrapped beautifully in one book: the grand theory of evolution and religion.
3. An excellent format. Each chapter begins with a great chapter-appropriate quote (epigraph) followed up immediately with a short narrative of what to expect in said chapter.
4. The authors rely and make excellent use of the minds of giants. Great quotes abound, “It’s hard for any attempt at objectivity to compete with felt knowledge, whose power cannot be underestimated, even when it exists independently of reason or any confirming evidence.” – Robert Burton.
5. An excellent introduction that captures the essence of the book and what is at stake here. They introduce the types of creationists
6. The grand and elegant theory of evolution once again takes center stage. No matter how many books I read about evolution it never ceases to amaze me its power of explanation. This book is a wonderful confirmation. Many great examples.
7. One of the pleasures of this book is the enjoyment of reading clever retorts, “If we came from apes, why are there still apes around? To which one might well ask why there are still Jews if Christianity came from Judaism.” A bonus, “Saying that new species don’t evolve because you haven’t see it happen is like sitting on a lawn for an afternoon and concluding that the grass isn’t growing.”
8. The irrelevance of the Bible in our scientific age. A look at three aspects of the biblical universe: the heaven above, the earth below, and the structure propping it all up. Great stuff!
9. Original Sin, young-earth creationism get demolished! “But the reality of evolution erases all traces of a historical Adam, and therefore of any historical Fall.”
10. The case for man’s primate origins has been bolstered by a prodigious amount of scientific evidence. “With just a few exceptions, the chromosomes from humans, chimpanzees, gorillas, and orangutans are highly similar and can be aligned with one another.” “We are what our genes evolved us to be…”
11. Good use of evolution to answer or contemplate the big philosophical questions. It also introduces new questions or implications, “So let’s take a moment to shine a flashlight on the never-mentioned implications of the belief of many theistic evolutionists, that the human soul appeared somewhere in the evolution of Homo sapiens from these uncouth hairy ancestors.”
12. An interesting look at Christian doctrines. Thought-provoking and challenges to theists. Price at his strongest.
13. A look at sin in general. “There is virtually no known human behavior that we call sin that is not also found among nonhuman animals.”
14. The argument from design gets battered around. “What’s amusing about Paley’s watch argument is that it defeats itself. Let’s imagine his original situation. He’s walking in a field and discovers the watch. It looks out of place, different from the plants and rocks. But if it looks different from nature because it looks designed, then nature must not look designed. You can’t argue on the one hand that the watch looks remarkable and stands out from the natural background, and on the other that the watch looks similar to nature, so both must be designed.” Brilliant!
15. Vestigial evolutionary traits…always a personal favorite topic.
16. Quantum apologetics. Say what? Oh it’s covered too. It’s role in evolution.
17. Natural selection and animal cruelty. Parasites!
18. An entire chapter on how Christian evolutionists handle damage control. “Those who fear the facts will forever try to discredit the fact-finders.” Great stuff.
19. Excellent chapter on conclusions. Cultural evolution, memes.
20. Links and a comprehensive bibliography.
Negatives:
1. A cast of characters or a table illustrating the main beliefs of said characters mentioned frequently in the book would have given readers a helpful reference. Once you get into the rhythm of the book, it becomes less of an issue. The introduction does a great job of presenting the main characters of the book but a cheat-sheet of sorts never hurts.
2. It had to end and having to buy extra copies for friends!
In summary, this was a personal treat. I enjoyed this book from cover to cover and wished I had read it the day it came out. The authors did a wonderful job of responding eloquently and directly to evolution-savvy theologians. The concept of Original Sin gets demolished along with the design argument. But it’s the desperate attempt to reconcile faith with science that takes the most direct blow. A lot of fun to read while simultaneously obtaining knowledge, the wise thing to do is to get this book. I highly recommend it!
Further recommendations: “Why Evolution Is True” by Jerry A. Coyne, “Evolution vs Creationism” by Eugenie C. Scott, “The Rocks Don’t Lie” by David R. Montgomery, “Decoding the Language of God” by George C. Cunningham, “The God Argument” by A.C. Grayling, “Why Does the World Exist?” by Jim Holt, “The Bible Unearthed” by Israel Finkelstein and Neil Asher Silberman, “Religion Explained” by Pascal Boyer, “The Fallacy of Fine-Tuning” by Victor J. Stenger, “Monkey Girl” by Edward Humes, “Relics of Eden” by Daniel J. Fairbanks, “Only a Theory” by Kenneth R. Miller, “Why Evolution Works (and Creationism Fails) by Matt Young, and “The Making of the Fittest” by Sean B. Carroll.
October 8, 2013
The authors claim to be providing a survey of "theological attempts to grapple with the significance of the theory of evolution for Christian belief," which the authors find to be unconvincing.
This book consists largely of criticisms of the works of Denis Alexander, C. John Collins, Francis Collins, Robin Collins, Peter Enns, John Haught, Conrad Hyers, Denis Lamoureux, Kenneth Miller, John Polkinghorne, and Bernard Ramm.
I find their criticisms unconvincing and have a number of problems with this book, including the following:
(1) To the authors, the Trinity equals polytheism (pp. 75, 90 & 149).
(2) They poke fun at Denis Lamoureux's desire to use the label "evolutionary creationist" instead of "theistic evolutionist," totally ignoring Lamoureux and others' valid reason for wanting to do so, with which they are likely familiar, having read Lamoureux's book (p. 118).
(3) The authors state: "Clearly he [Denis Lamoureux] is unaware of recent biblical archaeology that puts Bible-believers in the same sinking boat with the red-faced Mormons and their discredited idea of American Israelites," but offer not a single reference to a source for that claim, despite the fact that sources are cited for many other claims (p. 162)
(4) The authors claim that the Gospels are no more historical than Genesis 1-11 but offer no evidence to back up that claim (pp. 163-164).
(5) No belief in the supernatural is allowed; therefore, nothing supernatural ever occurred (p. 164), totally ignoring the fact that the supernatural is outside the realm of science.
(6) The authors state that the Tree of Knowledge stands for carnal knowledge, as in "to know" in the Old Testament (p. 80), but I would have thought that someone with a PhD in systematic theology (Robert Price) would be aware that Old Testament scholars do not hold this view (see John H. Walton's "The NIV Application Commentary: Genesis", p. 171 or Gordon J. Wenham's "Word Biblical Commentary: Genesis 1-15," p. 63, for example).
(7) They quote Mike Aus, "If there is no original ancestor who transmitted hereditary sin to the whole species, then there is no Fall, no need for redemption, and Jesus' death as a sacrifice efficacious for the salvation of humanity is pointless."(p. 180), totally ignoring Daryl Domning's concept of original selfishness, with which they are likely to be familiar, since they criticized his book on p. 194.
Atheists, agnostics and people considering those options will probably enjoy this interesting and frequently humorous book. Christians wrestling with how to integrate biological evolution with their faith would find the authors criticized in this book (see list above) to be more helpful.
This book consists largely of criticisms of the works of Denis Alexander, C. John Collins, Francis Collins, Robin Collins, Peter Enns, John Haught, Conrad Hyers, Denis Lamoureux, Kenneth Miller, John Polkinghorne, and Bernard Ramm.
I find their criticisms unconvincing and have a number of problems with this book, including the following:
(1) To the authors, the Trinity equals polytheism (pp. 75, 90 & 149).
(2) They poke fun at Denis Lamoureux's desire to use the label "evolutionary creationist" instead of "theistic evolutionist," totally ignoring Lamoureux and others' valid reason for wanting to do so, with which they are likely familiar, having read Lamoureux's book (p. 118).
(3) The authors state: "Clearly he [Denis Lamoureux] is unaware of recent biblical archaeology that puts Bible-believers in the same sinking boat with the red-faced Mormons and their discredited idea of American Israelites," but offer not a single reference to a source for that claim, despite the fact that sources are cited for many other claims (p. 162)
(4) The authors claim that the Gospels are no more historical than Genesis 1-11 but offer no evidence to back up that claim (pp. 163-164).
(5) No belief in the supernatural is allowed; therefore, nothing supernatural ever occurred (p. 164), totally ignoring the fact that the supernatural is outside the realm of science.
(6) The authors state that the Tree of Knowledge stands for carnal knowledge, as in "to know" in the Old Testament (p. 80), but I would have thought that someone with a PhD in systematic theology (Robert Price) would be aware that Old Testament scholars do not hold this view (see John H. Walton's "The NIV Application Commentary: Genesis", p. 171 or Gordon J. Wenham's "Word Biblical Commentary: Genesis 1-15," p. 63, for example).
(7) They quote Mike Aus, "If there is no original ancestor who transmitted hereditary sin to the whole species, then there is no Fall, no need for redemption, and Jesus' death as a sacrifice efficacious for the salvation of humanity is pointless."(p. 180), totally ignoring Daryl Domning's concept of original selfishness, with which they are likely to be familiar, since they criticized his book on p. 194.
Atheists, agnostics and people considering those options will probably enjoy this interesting and frequently humorous book. Christians wrestling with how to integrate biological evolution with their faith would find the authors criticized in this book (see list above) to be more helpful.
March 28, 2013
For hundreds of years, Christians have attempted to "reconcile" the Bible, and what it says about how the world was created, with what science reveals about how the world came to be.
Evolving out of Eden is a lucid and, dare I say complete, exploration of the various intersections between Christian theology and science -- in particular, the science of evolutionary theory.
For hundreds of years, Christians have been adamantly opposed to humanity's ever increasing knowledge about the way the world actually works. Galileo was opposed by the Roman Catholic Church. Darwin was, and still is opposed by Christians from many different Churches. And in America, Fundamentalist Evangelical Christians attempt to smuggle creationism (that is, Bible stories about the creation of the world) into the science classrooms of our public education system. All in an effort to protect their long held, and false beliefs, that the Bible is in some way a science text book. Well, as New Testament scholar Robert M. Price and co-author, Edwin A. Suominen clearly demonstrate: the Bible is NOT a science book!
Evolving out of Eden essentially begins as layman's guide to evolutionary theory. Quoting extensively from leading scientists in the field, the authors explore the reasons scientists throughout the world insist that evolution is true, and has always been, the mechanism for the creation of life on earth. It many ways, it is a crash course in the basics of evolutionary theory, as understood and explained by scientists. But like the Bible, Evolving out of Eden is not -- nor does it pretend to be -- a science text. It's real strengths are to be found when the authors delve into the vast history of the Biblical creation stories -- of which there are many. It explains, how these stories came to be, what they meant for the writers of texts, and how Christians throughout the centuries have interpreted and reinterpreted them, in order to make them fit with our ever expanding scientific knowledge. And it shows that, no matter how hard Christians have tried to force the Biblical creation stories into the world of science, it is always a futile attempt to force a square peg into a round hole.
While the authors themselves no longer consider themselves religious, they are not in an way, anti-religious. They both have a great deal of respect for religion, Christianity, the Bible and Christian theology -- and their respect shows in their words. This is not a book meant to bash those who believe in creationism, but a book meant to open up lines of communication that -- for the most part -- have been closed down, by us Christians.
Evolving out of Eden simply points out, what some Christians and Church fathers (like Origen of Alexandria) always understood: the Bible is NOT a scientific text from which one can draw information about how the world works. It is a religious text, meant to explore humanity's quest for something more than the world. And any attempt, no matter how sincere, to reconcile the Biblical creation accounts with scientific facts, fail on every level.
As a believing Eastern Orthodox Christian, I highly recommend this book. It's education, enlightening, at times funny, and above all it is honest and fair. I'm rating it five stars, with one caveat: by the very nature of the topics involved, somewhat technical -- especially near the beginning. Because the technical nature may turn off some readers who aren't as serious about following through on the subject as other, if I could rate it 4.5 stars I would. However, that's not the fault of the authors, but rather the fault of America's lackluster science education system, so in order to not punish the authors, who've done their very best to make a complex topic understandable, I'm giving it five stars.
It is a FANTASTIC book, and probably the best over all introduction to the topic of how evolution and Christianity intersect that I've ever read. If you have, even the slightest hint of an open mind, this book will change your opinions about the Bible, creationism, and science, while giving you a new respect for all three.
Evolving out of Eden is a lucid and, dare I say complete, exploration of the various intersections between Christian theology and science -- in particular, the science of evolutionary theory.
For hundreds of years, Christians have been adamantly opposed to humanity's ever increasing knowledge about the way the world actually works. Galileo was opposed by the Roman Catholic Church. Darwin was, and still is opposed by Christians from many different Churches. And in America, Fundamentalist Evangelical Christians attempt to smuggle creationism (that is, Bible stories about the creation of the world) into the science classrooms of our public education system. All in an effort to protect their long held, and false beliefs, that the Bible is in some way a science text book. Well, as New Testament scholar Robert M. Price and co-author, Edwin A. Suominen clearly demonstrate: the Bible is NOT a science book!
Evolving out of Eden essentially begins as layman's guide to evolutionary theory. Quoting extensively from leading scientists in the field, the authors explore the reasons scientists throughout the world insist that evolution is true, and has always been, the mechanism for the creation of life on earth. It many ways, it is a crash course in the basics of evolutionary theory, as understood and explained by scientists. But like the Bible, Evolving out of Eden is not -- nor does it pretend to be -- a science text. It's real strengths are to be found when the authors delve into the vast history of the Biblical creation stories -- of which there are many. It explains, how these stories came to be, what they meant for the writers of texts, and how Christians throughout the centuries have interpreted and reinterpreted them, in order to make them fit with our ever expanding scientific knowledge. And it shows that, no matter how hard Christians have tried to force the Biblical creation stories into the world of science, it is always a futile attempt to force a square peg into a round hole.
While the authors themselves no longer consider themselves religious, they are not in an way, anti-religious. They both have a great deal of respect for religion, Christianity, the Bible and Christian theology -- and their respect shows in their words. This is not a book meant to bash those who believe in creationism, but a book meant to open up lines of communication that -- for the most part -- have been closed down, by us Christians.
Evolving out of Eden simply points out, what some Christians and Church fathers (like Origen of Alexandria) always understood: the Bible is NOT a scientific text from which one can draw information about how the world works. It is a religious text, meant to explore humanity's quest for something more than the world. And any attempt, no matter how sincere, to reconcile the Biblical creation accounts with scientific facts, fail on every level.
As a believing Eastern Orthodox Christian, I highly recommend this book. It's education, enlightening, at times funny, and above all it is honest and fair. I'm rating it five stars, with one caveat: by the very nature of the topics involved, somewhat technical -- especially near the beginning. Because the technical nature may turn off some readers who aren't as serious about following through on the subject as other, if I could rate it 4.5 stars I would. However, that's not the fault of the authors, but rather the fault of America's lackluster science education system, so in order to not punish the authors, who've done their very best to make a complex topic understandable, I'm giving it five stars.
It is a FANTASTIC book, and probably the best over all introduction to the topic of how evolution and Christianity intersect that I've ever read. If you have, even the slightest hint of an open mind, this book will change your opinions about the Bible, creationism, and science, while giving you a new respect for all three.
March 20, 2013
The information on evolutionary biology is simplified and easy for the layman to understand. There is a mass of information about Christian polemic against Darwinism and Neo-Darwinism, presented fairly, but with tongue firmly in cheek for most of those discussions. Copious illustrations do not distract from the coherence and consistency of the text, which is moved along by clever and humorous chapter and subsection headings. The conclusions are pragmatic and unapologetic, though somehow uplifting, ultimately proving an interesting intellectual adventure. Even a Biblical view can be compatible with Naturalism: "Go your way, eat your bread with joy, and drink your wine with a merry heart, advises the Preacher [of Ecclesiastes], for God now accepts your works. Let your clothes be always white, and let your head lack no ointment. Live joyfully with the wife whom you love all the days of your fleeting life, which he has given you under the sun. That is your reward in life, for there is “no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.” (Eccl. 9:7-10 KJV)
May 12, 2013
I had to laugh when I read, on sites like Amazon, some of the criticisms of this book from born-againers whose main comment was that Bob, not being a biologist, had no right to comment on creationism. Give me a break -- like how many dyed-in-the-wool creationists have ANY biology beyond maybe high school (reading crappy born-againer “creation science” or “intelligent design“ books does NOT count as biology)? This book is a criticism of CREATIONIST "thought" -- and very well done. I AM a biologist, and had no problem with Bob's comments from that direction (even if I would minor-ly rephrase a description or two). This is a great, and needed work – taking on creationist rhetoric not just from the view of a scientist, but from the perspective of one who know the history and literature of christianity. And, of course, Bob’s wonderful humor (bad puns and movie references) always make his very serious books fun reads as well. You go, Dr. Price!
January 21, 2018
So informative and full of information. The last few chapters are worth the ticket to ride. I would recommend it to anyone who wanted to know more about our evolutionary underpinnings and how religion had its day but is now relegated to those who want to believe in it. For me, I understand the pull and draw to religion and the accompanying benefits it brings with it. But the truth shall set you free, especially the understanding of where we come from as a species and why mythology cannot have the fiery sting it used to, our brains have evolved to see past all that.
April 25, 2013
Incisive, comprehensive critique of the myriad ways in which creationists have responded to the increasing evidence for evolution. A little too sarcastic at times with some of the humour a bit cheesy but this book is a must read for anyone interested in the intersection of creationism and evolutionary theory.
March 5, 2015
Ever pondered why the reaction of the religious to Darwin was so visceral, so violent and emotional? It's a point worth considering. This isn't the topic per se of Evolving Out of Eden, but the reader will have an enhanced understanding after reading Price's work.
I was thoroughly surprised by the intellectual quality this book. I was first exposed to Robert M. Price from his interviews and talks. I knew Price was extremely witty and possessed a wicked, stiletto sarcasm, but I was shocked at the level of intellectual scholarship in Evolving Out of Eden. I was not surprised by Price's expertise in theology and Bible history - those are his professional fields - but the depth of his research and understanding of evolutionary science (a vast and encompassing enterprise) proved extraordinary.
While the book is scholarly, Price's practical, earthy style, wit, humor and sarcasm serves to keep the reader engaged. (With the notable exception of a dozen pages trying to explain quantum mechanics to the reader so the authors can then dismember the obtuse arguments of Jim Al-Khalili, Timothy Shanahan, et. al. I have long been aware of the pitfalls of the God-of-the-Gaps arguments, but squeezing God into quantum gaps seems to me to be moving from the absurd to the sublime).
Price and his co-author, Edwin A. Suominen, analyze the theological arguments of Christian apologists who understand the reality of Darwinian evolution and seek to salve over the theological crisis created by Darwin. I greatly admire two of the Christian apologists - Frances Collins is one of the fore-most scientists in America, and Kenneth Miller is a personal hero for his courageous and effective defense of teaching evolutionary science against the advocates of biblical creationism in the public school system. At the same time, I marvel at Collins'and Miller's ability to completely set aside their science training and evidence-based day-jobs, and with the boldest strokes of cognitive dissonance, trot out obtuse, feel-good, airy-fairy arguments that somehow without a creator god or original sin, man remains a fallen creature in need of redemption. I needed no convincing of the vacuousness of their cases, but watching Price and Suominen take apart their thesis was educational and entertaining.
With equal dispatch Price takes on the high-brow theologians ... John Haught (sophisticated theology), George Cunningham (Decoding the Language of God),
the Roman Catholic Daryl Domning, Jerry Korsmeyer, Dennis Lamoureux and John C Polkinhorne.
Religion in the modern era is being crushed by the forces of modernism, education and science. I take no joy in their distress and feel for their dilemma, but this is the 21st century, and frankly the time is long past they just got over it.
And if you still think you can reconcile your Christianity with materialistic evolution and the facts of science, then you really ought to read this book.
I was thoroughly surprised by the intellectual quality this book. I was first exposed to Robert M. Price from his interviews and talks. I knew Price was extremely witty and possessed a wicked, stiletto sarcasm, but I was shocked at the level of intellectual scholarship in Evolving Out of Eden. I was not surprised by Price's expertise in theology and Bible history - those are his professional fields - but the depth of his research and understanding of evolutionary science (a vast and encompassing enterprise) proved extraordinary.
While the book is scholarly, Price's practical, earthy style, wit, humor and sarcasm serves to keep the reader engaged. (With the notable exception of a dozen pages trying to explain quantum mechanics to the reader so the authors can then dismember the obtuse arguments of Jim Al-Khalili, Timothy Shanahan, et. al. I have long been aware of the pitfalls of the God-of-the-Gaps arguments, but squeezing God into quantum gaps seems to me to be moving from the absurd to the sublime).
Price and his co-author, Edwin A. Suominen, analyze the theological arguments of Christian apologists who understand the reality of Darwinian evolution and seek to salve over the theological crisis created by Darwin. I greatly admire two of the Christian apologists - Frances Collins is one of the fore-most scientists in America, and Kenneth Miller is a personal hero for his courageous and effective defense of teaching evolutionary science against the advocates of biblical creationism in the public school system. At the same time, I marvel at Collins'and Miller's ability to completely set aside their science training and evidence-based day-jobs, and with the boldest strokes of cognitive dissonance, trot out obtuse, feel-good, airy-fairy arguments that somehow without a creator god or original sin, man remains a fallen creature in need of redemption. I needed no convincing of the vacuousness of their cases, but watching Price and Suominen take apart their thesis was educational and entertaining.
With equal dispatch Price takes on the high-brow theologians ... John Haught (sophisticated theology), George Cunningham (Decoding the Language of God),
the Roman Catholic Daryl Domning, Jerry Korsmeyer, Dennis Lamoureux and John C Polkinhorne.
Religion in the modern era is being crushed by the forces of modernism, education and science. I take no joy in their distress and feel for their dilemma, but this is the 21st century, and frankly the time is long past they just got over it.
And if you still think you can reconcile your Christianity with materialistic evolution and the facts of science, then you really ought to read this book.
February 7, 2014
Evolving out of Eden is a book well worth it for those interested in how religion, especially Christianity, has dealt with the impact of modern science on the fundamental tenets of the faith. Christianity is founded on the assumption that Jesus the Savior died for our sins, sins that came into the world due to the Fall in the Garden of Eden. But how can this foundation remain intact if we know from science that there was no 7-day creation and no Garden of Eden and no global Flood? Does not the whole edifice crumble? Price and Suominen provide an intellectual and historical account of all the theological gymnastics Christians of all stripes--liberal to conservative--have had to perform to avoid what is, as they convincingly demonstrate, an unavoidable conclusion.
The authors first provide a brief, non-technical overview of the basic case for evolution, along with some fascinating higher criticism as it relates to Genesis, then they spend the second half of the book going through the cast of characters who have constructed imaginative theoretical frameworks to accommodate their core theology with modern biology and geology, etc. From creationism & intelligent design on the conservative side to progressive revelation & divine hiddeness the liberal. There is also a really fascinating interpretation of the whole Garden of Eden tale and the magical trees and forbidden fruit thing, in which it is the "snake" that is really the good guy in the story, and YHWH the deceitful one. I'll leave the details for the reader to discover.
One warning though: Price throws around a lot of inside references to Biblical scholars that might leave complete newbs a bit confused, starting at the first mention of "Bultmannian critiques" etc. It would help to spend some time listening to Price's Bible Geek or The Human Bible podcast to get up to speed. Despite that minor caveat there is still much for the student of religion vs. science debate to take away from this book.
The authors first provide a brief, non-technical overview of the basic case for evolution, along with some fascinating higher criticism as it relates to Genesis, then they spend the second half of the book going through the cast of characters who have constructed imaginative theoretical frameworks to accommodate their core theology with modern biology and geology, etc. From creationism & intelligent design on the conservative side to progressive revelation & divine hiddeness the liberal. There is also a really fascinating interpretation of the whole Garden of Eden tale and the magical trees and forbidden fruit thing, in which it is the "snake" that is really the good guy in the story, and YHWH the deceitful one. I'll leave the details for the reader to discover.
One warning though: Price throws around a lot of inside references to Biblical scholars that might leave complete newbs a bit confused, starting at the first mention of "Bultmannian critiques" etc. It would help to spend some time listening to Price's Bible Geek or The Human Bible podcast to get up to speed. Despite that minor caveat there is still much for the student of religion vs. science debate to take away from this book.
July 16, 2013
The evidence for evolution is pretty overwhelming. On the surface, Christianity isn't really compatible with it's findings -- the large scale ones (like creation clearly not happening in 6 days) of course, but also newer discoveries removing more loopholes. For example, mapping the multiple genomes has revealed that the human population was at least 10,000 3 million years ago -- possibly even before 'human' would be the right word to use. That causes a lot of problems for someone trying to understand sin and salvation in terms of Adam and Eve, because we didn't come from 2 people 6-10,000 years ago.
Obviously, people are still Christians, so how do they reconcile these issues? It turns out, in many diverse (and incompatible) ways. This book catalogs and maps the responses, all the way from "ignoring and/or rejecting the evidence" to "accepting the evidence and creatively redefining 'God' and 'inspiration' and 'truth'." It also explores the consequences of these compromises, showing their failings.
I found it to be extremely well put together. Even from a structural (down to page layout) perspective, the information was well organized and referenced, and extremely readable. There's also a lot of "groaner" humor (the puns, they are everywhere) but in a book like this they actually help keep you engaged through what could be otherwise dry, quote-heavy sections.
I'd recommend this book to anyone interested in the ongoing discussions around faith and evolution. If you don't yet accept the evidence for evolution, and are curious for more about that, this book touches briefly on reasons, but those are covered in much more depth in other books. (My personal recommendation is Donald Prothero's book, 'Evolution: What the Fossils Say and Why It Matters.' Incidentally, a Christian himself.)
Obviously, people are still Christians, so how do they reconcile these issues? It turns out, in many diverse (and incompatible) ways. This book catalogs and maps the responses, all the way from "ignoring and/or rejecting the evidence" to "accepting the evidence and creatively redefining 'God' and 'inspiration' and 'truth'." It also explores the consequences of these compromises, showing their failings.
I found it to be extremely well put together. Even from a structural (down to page layout) perspective, the information was well organized and referenced, and extremely readable. There's also a lot of "groaner" humor (the puns, they are everywhere) but in a book like this they actually help keep you engaged through what could be otherwise dry, quote-heavy sections.
I'd recommend this book to anyone interested in the ongoing discussions around faith and evolution. If you don't yet accept the evidence for evolution, and are curious for more about that, this book touches briefly on reasons, but those are covered in much more depth in other books. (My personal recommendation is Donald Prothero's book, 'Evolution: What the Fossils Say and Why It Matters.' Incidentally, a Christian himself.)
April 11, 2014
I'm probably not the target audience for this book.
Theology is like arguing over whether Kirk or Picard was the best captain, so not being a Star Trek fan, the conversation doesn't really do much for me. Theology is the same principle, only it's fighting over interpretations of myth. The myth in this case is the Christian account of the resurrection, and the fight is over how one can maintain that belief in the face of scientific evidence.
As someone with no stake in the outcome, it's hard to get excited about how to correctly interpret evolution in light of Christianity. Which is to say nothing of the competency of the writers - it's expertly written, covers the science well, (presumably) covers the Christian arguments well, and dissects them eloquently. For that, I'd recommend this book to anyone interested in the topic.
There are multiple problems identified, but the main problem is this. If evolution is true, then there is no Adam and Eve. If there was no fall (and thus no original sin), then what did Jesus die for? Quoting from young earth creationists such as Ken Ham, through progressive creationists, theistic evolutionists, and finally process theologians like John Haught, the book explores various musings about how to make sense of Christianity without being completely intellectually bankrupt.
The book really should be commended for holding theologians to account, spelling out the consequences of their views, and not simply claiming easy answers. Would the problem of evil be satisfied by seeing the universe as a cosmic drama as John Haught suggests? Is God's intervention on the 11th decimal place of quantum mechanics enough to claim guided evolution like Ken Miller suggests? Is there still a fall if our natures are a product of evolution? Price and Suominen make sure that any reader will come away with a deeper appreciation of what they entail.
Theology is like arguing over whether Kirk or Picard was the best captain, so not being a Star Trek fan, the conversation doesn't really do much for me. Theology is the same principle, only it's fighting over interpretations of myth. The myth in this case is the Christian account of the resurrection, and the fight is over how one can maintain that belief in the face of scientific evidence.
As someone with no stake in the outcome, it's hard to get excited about how to correctly interpret evolution in light of Christianity. Which is to say nothing of the competency of the writers - it's expertly written, covers the science well, (presumably) covers the Christian arguments well, and dissects them eloquently. For that, I'd recommend this book to anyone interested in the topic.
There are multiple problems identified, but the main problem is this. If evolution is true, then there is no Adam and Eve. If there was no fall (and thus no original sin), then what did Jesus die for? Quoting from young earth creationists such as Ken Ham, through progressive creationists, theistic evolutionists, and finally process theologians like John Haught, the book explores various musings about how to make sense of Christianity without being completely intellectually bankrupt.
The book really should be commended for holding theologians to account, spelling out the consequences of their views, and not simply claiming easy answers. Would the problem of evil be satisfied by seeing the universe as a cosmic drama as John Haught suggests? Is God's intervention on the 11th decimal place of quantum mechanics enough to claim guided evolution like Ken Miller suggests? Is there still a fall if our natures are a product of evolution? Price and Suominen make sure that any reader will come away with a deeper appreciation of what they entail.
September 13, 2014
Damn, this is a truly s-e-r-i-o-u-s topic. Living in the modern world and truly taking these existential and religious questions/difficulties seriously can be an extremely difficult and joy-crushing experience.
Understanding that God may very well be nothing more than the wishful thinking of humans.. That christianity perhaps actually is incompatible with reason and modern knowledge.. That human mind and behaviour one day may be fully understood, and that we are nothing more than advanced machines with no room for the conscept of "soul".
What will then be the meaning of our lives? What will get us through the day? I guess family, friends, work, pleasure, philosophy and the ideas of existential thinkers Is our best bet. And hey, at least we don't have to believe in hell, evil spirits, possessions, other people being inferior, that we are sooo darn sinful and loooads of biblical and theological contradictions. Ahh, ignorance. is. bliss.
The weight of knowledge. The paralyzing effect of freedom. The unavoidable responsibility of making descitions and of creating a good life..
I have been told that it is always good to be asking questions.. Well, it doesn't always feel that way when the answers you get will split up and deconstruct everything like your faith, your worldview, your hope and your belief in eternal mysteries. Mommy, i need a hug. Aaand i need to go to sleep. And see my pastor. And buy new shoes. And maybe start reading the books BEFORE i "review" them.
Understanding that God may very well be nothing more than the wishful thinking of humans.. That christianity perhaps actually is incompatible with reason and modern knowledge.. That human mind and behaviour one day may be fully understood, and that we are nothing more than advanced machines with no room for the conscept of "soul".
What will then be the meaning of our lives? What will get us through the day? I guess family, friends, work, pleasure, philosophy and the ideas of existential thinkers Is our best bet. And hey, at least we don't have to believe in hell, evil spirits, possessions, other people being inferior, that we are sooo darn sinful and loooads of biblical and theological contradictions. Ahh, ignorance. is. bliss.
The weight of knowledge. The paralyzing effect of freedom. The unavoidable responsibility of making descitions and of creating a good life..
I have been told that it is always good to be asking questions.. Well, it doesn't always feel that way when the answers you get will split up and deconstruct everything like your faith, your worldview, your hope and your belief in eternal mysteries. Mommy, i need a hug. Aaand i need to go to sleep. And see my pastor. And buy new shoes. And maybe start reading the books BEFORE i "review" them.
Read
November 2, 2013Way more in depth than I was looking for in this one. Authors seemed to ramble at times belaboring the same point for pages on pages. Overall some good information and a great reference book for arguments against various Christian Creationist talking points.
June 7, 2015
Another supporting publication endorsing the idea of why a literal interpretation or even a 'ceremonial' view of the primary religious text of our culture leaves much to be desired.
June 15, 2020
One of the most influential books that I have ever read. Also, one I would ask everybody and anybody to read themselves.
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