Os Filósofos Pré-Socráticos - História crítica com selecção de textos

Dějiny filosofie Oikoymenh #1

by Geoffrey S. Kirk, John E. Raven (Coauthor), Malcolm Schofield (Coauthor)

Esta nova edição traça a revolução intelectual iniciada por Tales de Mileto no início do século 6 A.C. até ao seu ponto culminante na metafísica de Parménides e as teorias físicas de Anaxágoras e os atomistas do século quinto .

Genres: Philosophy, History, Nonfiction, Classics, Ancient, Science, Reference

546 pages, Paperback

First published January 1, 1957

About the author

Geoffrey Stephen Kirk (3 December 1921 – 10 March 2003) was an English classicist known for his writings on Ancient Greek literature and mythology. He was Regius Professor of Greek at the University of Cambridge from 1974 to 1984.

Reviews

[AC · Rating 2 out of 5]

(Here's a follow-up comment that I should probably lodge here, so it doesn't get completely lost:
http://www.goodreads.com/review/show/...)

This book is a disgrace, while Kirk was a competent scholar, his book on Heraclitus is quite good, though flawed, Raven was an idiot... and Schofield has here made an old book that at least was servicable almost worthless. They are completely unreliable guides to what the Presocratics, both individually and collectively are all about. Sorry to burst anyone's bubble....

Here's Kirk's book on Heraclitus:
http://www.amazon.com/Heraclitus-Cosm...

Here's an example of the type of thing that J.E. Raven published
http://www.amazon.com/Pythagoreans-El...

In general, the Kirk half of K&R had more value than the Raven half -- but old' Schofield ruined both halves.

On the Presocratics, one simply has to study Cherniss' book, Aristotle's Criticism of Presocratic Philosophy (which is quite difficult), and then study the relevant papers of William Arthur Heidel (Heidel, Selected Papers). And then read the specialized monographs on individual figures. Burnet's book, Early Greek Philosophy, is absolutely brilliant, but is completely wrong on almost everything - but it is the sort of brilliance that makes it a book that is worth not just reading, but studying. Guthrie's two volumes (I & II) in his History of Greek Philosophy that are dedicated to the Presocratics are useful in that they summarize much bibliography and often states the status questionis of a problem in clear terms (and they are very readable) - but Guthrie was himself a fool and missed a lot of what, after Cherniss and Heidel, should have been obvious.

One fabulous monograph that very few will have heard of is J.W. Beardslee's Physis (which was a dissertation done under the supervision of Paul Shorey):
http://www.amazon.com/Physis-Fifth-Ce...

On Parmenides, you simply have to read and study and understand Tarán's book -- but that is very difficult if you don't have access to the Greek. So, if you're interested in Parmenides and don't know Greek, try Kant. Or somebody like that....

[Jacques Bromberg · Rating 4 out of 5]

Kirk, Raven, and Schofield provide useful notes in what is probably the best single English-language guide to the Presocratics.

[Styer · Rating 5 out of 5]

One of my favorite books ever. It starts with the very earliest Greek philosophers, who were much more like religious mystics than philosophers. The philosophers are discussed in a mostly linear history, and it's kind of amazing to watch them develop complex thought. You also discover great historical tidbits, for instance, that Pythagoras almost certainly did not come up with the things attributed to him. Rather, he was a cult leader who taught, among other strange things, that beans should not be eaten because they are aristocratic.

Heraclitus is a big highlight here, in my mind. I think he saw something fundamentally true about life and the universe that has been in some sense lost. I can't explain how, because it's more of a change in feeling and perception than explicit thought, but reading Heraclitus definitely changed me. I feel a little bit wiser, more open to some kind of "truth" than I did before. He is right on the border of mystic and philosopher, so I guess what I'm getting at is that reading him lends a little bit to considering parts of the world a little more mystically somehow. In addition, some anecdotes about him are completely hilarious.

[Kathie Yang · Rating 3 out of 5]

this was sorta hard to read but the preface says it’s not really intended for people with casual interest so like my b i guess. this was actually pretty interesting but had a bit too much cosmogony and i low-key didn’t care a ton about that. but so funny to see how advanced their thought was in some areas whereas other parts were like “maybe the earth is a cylinder???” and also “he was the first guy to use logic” like ok! so funny

pretty cool from a historical standpoint, def not recommended if you have no background in ancient greece/rome cause it’s like half greek (with translations though) (but i felt like i was missing out a bit)

rating: 3 stars i guess

[Notes Between Pages · Rating 5 out of 5]

I found this book purely by chance in a charity shop—completely untouched, almost as if it had been waiting. I had just decided to educate myself in philosophy, and this became my unplanned first step. I didn’t know then that the history of Western philosophy began not with ethics or meaning, but with cosmogony, cosmology, and atomism.

To be honest, these subjects don’t naturally interest me. I’m drawn to human suffering, solitude, existential resilience, and the spiritual life—not necessarily to theories of how the world was formed from water, air, or indivisible particles. But I wanted to begin at the beginning, and this was it.

The Presocratic Philosophers is often described as a book for scholars and serious students, and it’s easy to see why. It’s dense with Greek source texts, intricate footnotes, and over 600 references explaining fragment translations. But despite all this, I was able to follow it—and more importantly, I finished it. Slowly, carefully, and with my Commonplace Book open beside me.

Along the way, I created a lineage map of the philosophers—tracing who taught whom, who broke from whom, and how these ideas rippled through early thought. I may never return to this area of study, but I’m glad I’ve now walked through its gates.

I give this book five stars not because it aligned with my personal philosophical interests, but because of what it is: an extraordinary feat of historical scholarship. The sheer effort that went into reconstructing the philosophical voices of the 6th and 5th centuries BCE is something I deeply respect. Kirk and Raven took scattered, fragile fragments and assembled them into a coherent lineage of thought that continues to shape philosophical inquiry today.

If you are beginning your own study of philosophy and want to understand its earliest roots, don’t be discouraged by the reputation this book has. If you are patient and curious, there is room for you here too.

[Erik Graff · Rating 4 out of 5]

I read this collection for Maxwell's History of Ancient Philosophy course during the second semester of 1980/81 at Loyola University Chicago along with a similar collection edited and translated by, as I recall, Wainright. Having read all the Presocratic fragments in several similar collections, it is difficult to remember the differences between them. In any case, on this occasion and for this course my primary interest was with Parmenides about whose Proem I composed the required term paper.

[Truls Ljungström · Rating 5 out of 5]

Denna bok är oerhört lärd. Den baseras på genomgångar av de fragment av försokratikerna som finns kvar, och de närmaste andrahandskällorna. Denna metod (och författarens synbara sakkunskap) tillåter författaren att påvisa likheter och skillnader mellan de försokratiska författarna på ett sätt som i sin tur tydliggör både deras naturvetenskapliga och etiska och kunskapsteoretiska ställningstaganden, där de flesta genomgångar bara klarar att fokusera på en av dessa i taget.

Detta gör att jag starkt rekommenderar boken, men jag vill också inkludera en varning: lika spränglärd som den är, och lika rationell, lika tråkigt skriven är den också. Det kommer ta tid att gå igenom den, och även om jag kan se att jag har tagit över 50 anteckningar på knappt 500 sidor, så finns risken att boken suger musten ur dig.

För att vara direkt:
Läs den du ledarskapskonsult, filosofilärare eller idéhistoriker - för Dig finns det tillräckligt mycket nytta, eftersom människors tankesätt inte ändrats så mycket.
Läs den som komplement till Diogenes Laertios du filosfistudent på universitetet: här finns sambanden som Diogenes tycker är för självklara att skriva ner.
Läs den du moralfilosof eller politiker som är nyfiken på Herakleitos och hans idéer, och som behöver komplement till fragmenten; författaren kommer ge Dig många referenser till samtida källors beskrivningar av Herakleitos, vilket i sin tur kommer att hjälpa Dig tolka honom.
Om du inte tillhör någon av ovanstående grupper, är bokens kostnad så pass stor att den inte betalar sig i tid, trots dess substans och dess brillianta analyser.

[Raúl · Rating 5 out of 5]

Un gran clásico. Un recorrido desde el momento en que la filosofía se desgaja de la religión y el rito en Grecia, hasta que se dan las primeras cosmogonías racionalistas y los primeros sistemas de pensamiento y de teoría del hombre. La selección de textos, amplia y detallando el pensamiento de cada filósofo.

[Alan · Rating 4 out of 5]

My first philosophy text, where I learned Heraclitus only wrote in fragments.

[Jim Syler · Rating 4 out of 5]

Pretty much everything important that we have of the writings of the presocratic philosophers, neatly and intelligently organized. An excellent resource.

[Pilar · Rating 5 out of 5]

Muy útil.
Estudio y comentario de los filósofos presocráticos a través de una selección de textos en su lengua original, griego.

[Marianna Sharktooth · Rating 4 out of 5]

Όλη η αρχαία ελληνική προσωκρατική φιλοσοφία, μαζεμένη σε ένα βιβλίο. Πολλά αποσπάσματα στα αρχαια ελληνικά και μεταφρασμένα.

[Dr. A · Rating 5 out of 5]

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Read this and reviews of other classics in Western Philosophy on the History page of www.BestPhilosophyBooks.org (a thinkPhilosophy Production).
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Birthed in wonder, the Western tradition of Philosophy begins with these Presocratic philosophers of nature who were the first to ask: What are all existing things made of? Is it one or many elemental substances? Is there such a thing as nothingness or the void? Is continual change the nature of reality, or are some things unchanging and eternal? Experience the remaining fragments of their thinking in this classic text.

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It all begins with a group of Presocratic (before Socrates) philosophers of nature who were the first to offer explanations for natural phenomena based on keen observation and reason, as opposed to myth or religion. Kirk and Raven's Presocratic Philosophers is the gold standard introduction to this Presocratic era, and includes the remaining fragments of Thales and the Milesians, Empedocles, Parmenides, Heraclitus, Zeno, and the Atomists.

These natural philosophers begin with the question of what are things made out of, and each offers their own answer for the origin of what exists. For Thales, who observed that everything living needed water to survive, water was the primary substance. Empedocles was the first to name the four elements — fire, air, water, and earth - as the primary elements for all beings, moved by primal forces he named Love and Hate. Parmenides and Heraclitus went back and forth about whether the underlying substrate was On or Many, creating the first full blown debate about what is called “the problem of the one and the many.” From Zeno, we have a number of mathematical puzzles and thought experiments meant to support the idea of Parmenidean One by denying the existence of the void. Finally, the Atomists proposed the idea of even the elements being made up of invisible, indivisible, moving particles that they names atoms, an idea that remains a part of science even today.

This volume is a must have for the student of Ancient Greek Philosophy. This edition contains the fragments remaining from their written works in both the original Ancient Attic Greek and in translation (it’s kinda cool to see the original Greek text!), plus commentary to help readers interpret and enjoy these earliest of natural philosophers.

Readers interested in the History of Western Science, Ontology (popularly known as Metaphysics), and Epistemology will find some very interesting ideas here, which they can follow through into Aristotle's Physics and Metaphysics.

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Read this and reviews of other classics in Western Philosophy on the History page of www.BestPhilosophyBooks.org (a thinkPhilosophy Production).
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[Chema Min · Rating 3 out of 5]

Un clásico, de ésos que te recomendaban en la Facultad, el equivalente a un #youmust aquel entonces.

Y allí nos repetían la rubiconada clásica de que la filosofía era el paso del mito al logos:

El monolito de 2001 en el siglo V a.C.
El nacimiento del discurso racional, la eclosión de la inteligencia.
El caminar frente al gateo estéril, la luz frente a las tinieblas, el amor por la sabiduría frente a la mitontería.
Así de drástico, puro y radical.
Porque nosotros... Éramos filósofos!

El reduccionismo de siempre.
Si no lo explicamos todo muy clarito y sin matices no lo entenderemos.
La reinterpretación al servicio de la comprensión. Cutre, positivista, meridiana.
Como si el mito no alumbrara a Prometeo y no habitara plácido en las cuatro esquinas de la filosofía.
En el Kirk y Raven también lo encontrarás, animando la palabra de los filósofos. Pese a lo que digan los de siempre.

Es ésta una obra demasiado académica, muy pura ella, de autores estudiosos y con ganas de no errar una coma. Y es que son autores pero que muy eruditos.

Sin embargo, si te apetece y todo esto no te pesa, los Filósofos Presocráticos es un libro útil para leer y repensar el origen del ser, la búsqueda del primer o primeros principios, la posibilidad o imposibilidad del movimiento, la fiabilidad de los sentidos y el análisis del conocimiento; la divinidad o no de la sustancia (pero sin mitologías, ¿eh académicos?), la cosmología, la ética y el origen de la psicología.

Desde los textos de los clásicos.

Toda una aventura.

Si eres capaz de no ahogarte entre tanta ola parola y doxografía. En caso contrario, que Caronte te lleve a buen puerto, querido amigo, querida amiga.

[Sanjay Prabhakar · Rating 4 out of 5]

Since I'm no expert, I'll just quickly compare this to Philosophy Before Socrates: An Introduction with Texts and Commentary, which I read parallel to KRS, and which has apparently recently superseded KRS as the standard sourcebook for the Presocratics, though the latter continues to enjoy a canonical status in the literature.

What KRS has on McKirahan:
- The original Greek, which is occasionally useful even if that amounts to identifying particular words here and there, as it did for me
- Fuller discussion of the history of interpretations, the derivation of interpretations from the sources, and the reliability of the sources
- A long introductory chapter on pre-philosophical cosmogonies and cosmologies

What McKirahan has on KRS
- It's more up to date (2011 vs 1983); this was particularly obvious regarding Empedocles
- Generally, where interpretations differed, I found McKirahan's preferable (though again, I am no expert)
- The book continues into the Sophists and the nomos/phusis debate
- Extended translations of Hippocratic texts and fragments from the Derveni papyrus

[Marcos Buccellato · Rating 4 out of 5]

Un libro excelente que da una introducción a los filósofos presocráticos a través de una lectura de los fragmentos existentes de las obras de los diferentes pensadores. Cada sección está dedicada a un filósofo y tiene una pequeña introducción que esta seguida por los diferentes fragmentos ordenados por temas. Esta forma de ordenar es bastante ventajosa en algunos casos ya que le brinda una estructura a los fragmentos, algo que para algunos pensadores es muy útil debido al poco material existente y a lo disperso del mismo. La única posible crítica es que de alguna manera esta estructuración y, en algunos pensadores, la misma selección de fragmentos puede hacer demasiado guiado y rígida la interpretación, sin embargo los autores se preocupan por incluir comentarios sobre interpretaciones diferentes a las presentadas por ellos. Más allá de esto, encuentro que este libro cumple una función esencial para el estudio de la filosofía presocrática en general y no he visto otro libro que haga un mejor trabajo que este para tal fin.

[Sandra Vega · Rating 4 out of 5]

Este libro explica de forma simple de qué manera se estudian los filósofos de la antigüedad, cómo se analizan los rastros de su pensamiento pese a que muchos de ellos no dejaron ninguna obra escrita, o que la mayor parte de sus textos se perdieran.
Además de ser un libro apto para eruditos -ya que presenta las citas en su lengua de origen y traducidas - también permite comprender, para alguien no experto, leyendo aunque sea alguno de sus capítulos, la forma de pensar del filósofo presocrático que se estudie (en mi caso, Tales de Mileto) y también la forma de trabajar de los historiadores de la filosofía.

[Mário Carreiro]

A minha primeira introdução séria ao estudo da Filosofia. Gosto especialmente da forma como os excertos gregos estão devidamente individualizados e seguidos da tradução, o que facilita imenso o acompanhamento da análise por parte do leitor leigo. Antes dos filósofos pré-socráticos propriamente ditos, tem um capítulo inicial sobre as primeiras cosmogonias semi-racionalistas, que deram origem ao pensamento verdadeiramente filosófico que já encontramos nos milésios do séc. VI a.C..

[Güis Guerrero-Enterría · Rating 5 out of 5]

Es un clásico de referencia sobre los filósofos presocráticos. esta en una nueva edición. pasa el tiempo pero no se queda viejo.

[John · Rating 4 out of 5]

Apart from a tortuously interminable introduction which traces, in excruciating detail, the pre-philosophical beliefs which led to the emergence of more rational thinking among the ancient Greeks, this scholarly and (thus) exceedingly dry work is useful in providing insight into the foundations of Western thought. And that's actually saying quite a bit.

It is in the fundamental, largely implicit (i.e., myopic) dualism of ancient Greek thought that we find the seeds of every ill which Western European minds would inflict, and continue to inflict, upon the world. This is not to say that no good has come of Western philosophy. But just as the Greeks divided the universe into two diametric halves, so it is with the fruits of their labors: science has yielded both antibiotics and nuclear warfare, both the Internet and climate change. Nor is the line between so-called Western and Eastern thought necessarily as crystalline as we sometimes choose to believe. Indeed, the influence of the East is acknowledged in this volume, both by the editors and in their sources. But it is clear the Western thought is pervaded by a dualism which Eastern thought more assiduously eschewed.

In short, the early Greeks were determined to break the world around us down into constituent units which could then, presumably, be used to explain all the phenomena which the world presents to us. In this sense, the early rational thinkers were simply taking their mythologizing predecessors to the next level. What does emerge from the frankly tedious introductory material to this book is a clear picture of a people who were determined to understand the universe as a clockwork, presumably with the goal (whether conscious or not) of gaining some control over a mercurial world. Even their pre-rational mythology largely sidesteps broader metaphysical questions of purpose, meaning, psychology, emotion, and so on. Holistic the Greeks were not. They sought for the sources of all things -- laughter, love, even thought itself -- in physical processes, and that's not funny at all.

Why this matters is that when we start to break the world down into components which are separate both from us and from one another, we leave the door open to a great many evils. (Nor is this to say that Eastern thought is some utopian panacea in this regard; but that's a separate issue for another day.) In the simplest, most obvious case, if you and I are distinct and separate entities, unconnected with one another in any fundamental way, one next logical step is for me to objectify you. In fact, my world view has already done that for me, I simply need to pick up the ball and run with it. Before long your personhood means little or nothing to me, and I can easily justify, for example, oppressing you, dehumanizing you, even enslaving you. It is in the writings and thoughts of the Presocratic philosophers that we find the first evolution of this way of thinking from mere superstitious beliefs into an attempt at compelling and persuasive logical reasoning. It is not too much to say that the Greeks, however unwittingly, laid the foundations for chattel slavery, exploitation of every description, totalitarianism, and, by extension, even the Holocaust.

As far as this volume itself, as a book to be read, is concerned, its scholarly approach is predictably dry and redundant. There is a relative dearth of simple paraphrase and practical examples, both of which would have vastly improved readability, and the typical scholarly impulse to split hairs ad nauseam -- often to little discernable reason -- is on full display. Scholars love to fill pages, after all. But the scholarship here is, no doubt, scrupulous, and once you get past the mind-numbing introductory material, the main body of the text is clear enough, if somewhat arid and colorless. It is certainly a good overview of Western philosophical thought before Socrates and his ilk took the reins.

[Iqbal Latif · Rating 5 out of 5]

"The Presocratic Philosophers" by Jonathan Barnes is an extensive book that examines the beliefs and contributions of the Pre-Socratic philosophers. The Pre-Socratic philosophers were a group of early Greek thinkers who lived before Socrates and made significant contributions to the development of philosophy. They were interested in understanding the nature of the world and the universe, and they used observation, reason, and intuition to develop their theories.

One of the key themes of the book is the argument that the Pre-Socratic philosophers were concerned with understanding the nature of the world and the universe.

One of the key ideas of the Pre-Socratic philosophers was that there was a fundamental substance or principle that underlay all of reality. Thales, for example, believed that this substance was water, while Anaximenes believed it was air. Heraclitus believed that everything was in a state of constant flux and change, and Parmenides argued that the universe was eternal and unchanging.

Barnes writes, "What they had in common was a passionate interest in the workings of the world - an interest which took them beyond the bounds of mythology and which they pursued with the weapons of argument and observation."

Barnes also underlines the primacy of reason and logic in Pre-Socratic philosophy. He writes, "Reason is the tool of philosophy, and the Presocratics were the first to use it systematically in the pursuit of an understanding of the world."

Another important aspect of Pre-Socratic philosophy was the emphasis on reason and logic. Xenophanes, for example, argued that we should rely on reason and evidence rather than blind faith, and Zeno of Elea developed a series of paradoxes to challenge our understanding of reality and the limits of human reason.

Another essential theme of the book is the diversity of ideas among the Pre-Socratic philosophers. Barnes notes that there was no one school or doctrine that united them all, and that they often held opposing views on key issues.

Perhaps the most famous Pre-Socratic philosopher was Pythagoras, who is best known for his work on mathematics and geometry. He believed that the universe was fundamentally mathematical and that everything could be understood in terms of numbers.

Overall, the Pre-Socratic philosophers made significant contributions to the development of philosophy and science, and their ideas continue to influence our understanding of the world today. As Bertrand Russell famously put it, "The Pre-Socratic philosophers were the first men in the Western world to use their reason in order to find out the structure of the world."

He writes, "The Presocratics were not members of a school or sect; they did not share a common set of beliefs or subscribe to a single method. They were, rather, independent thinkers who developed their own views on a wide range of subjects."

Overall, "The Presocratic Philosophers" is an intriguing inquiry of the beliefs and contributions of early Greek thinkers.

As Barnes writes, "The Presocratics were the first to take the first steps in a long journey - a journey which would lead, eventually, to the development of modern science and philosophy."

[Sebastião · Rating 5 out of 5]

Trata-se de uma obra fabulosa, diria mesmo fundamental, para se conhecer o obscuro, mas interessantíssimo, mundo da filosofia pré-socrática. Repleto de citações originais e traduzidas, conjuga-se um texto muito completo, alicerçado em abundante bibliografia, que não se limita a dar a conhecer uma interpretação da história, mas aponta os vários caminhos relevantes de investigação sobre cada filósofo antigo.

[Jacob MacDavid · Rating 4 out of 5]

This book is interesting to read cover-to-cover, and also a handy reference. It's full of fragments and testimonia in original Greek, paired with contemporary English translations, and commentary. I'd only recommend it to someone after they have some experience with ancient philosophy; but for those who do, it helps to explain each key thinker in Ionian, Eleatic, and pre-Socratic Athenian thought.

[Adrian Fanaca · Rating 4 out of 5]

This is a book about the forerunners of philosophical cosmogony, the thinkers Thales, Anaximander, Anaximenes, Xenophanes, Heraclitus, Pythagoras, Parmenides, Zeno, Empedocles, Philolaus, Anaxagoras, Archelaus, Melisus, Leucippus and Democritus, and Diogenes. I give it a 4 stars because I remember something from the book after reading it: the Greeks before Socrates believed that the earth is flat and is surrounded by glass.

[Hugolane · Rating 3 out of 5]

I knew nearly nothing about the Pre-Socratic Philosophers, so I learned a lot reading this book. Having tried another book that also contained fragments from or referencing Pre-Socratic philosophers, I found this superior; although, the organization takes getting used to. If I had fallen in love with the pre-Socratics I would have given it more stars, that has little to do with Kirk and co.

[Kurt · Rating 5 out of 5]

This book is the best reader for people interested in learning about the pre-Socratic philosophers. While some parts are in Ancient Greek, there are translations provided. This in depth study of the beginning of western philosophy is a must for any serious Philosophy or Classics student.

[Roy Kenagy]

Cited in Gleiser, Dawn of a Mindful Universe

[The Hellene · Rating 5 out of 5]

Από τα καλύτερα βιβλία για την μελέτη της προσωκρατικής φιλοσοφίας. Μια υπέροχη εργασία.

[David Riojas · Rating 4 out of 5]

Gran momento para recordar que Pitágoras era más un loquito líder de culto religioso que filósofo-matemático

[I invite lunch · Rating 5 out of 5]

Its a good book, because i loved this genero