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Männer, die Frauen hassen: Von Incels bis Pick Up Artists. Die Wahrheit über extreme Misogynie und wie sie uns alle betrifft
Stell dir eine Welt vor, in der sich über das Internet ein riesiges Netzwerk von Frauenhassern radikalisiert und praktisch unentdeckt operiert. Sie nennen sich Incels, Pick Up-Artists oder Männerrechtsaktivisten. Diese Extremisten begehen terroristische Akte gegen Frauen, weil sie sich von ihnen zurückgewiesen fühlen, sie als niederes Geschlecht ansehen oder einfach einsam sind. Du musst dir diese Welt nicht vorstellen. Du lebst bereits in ihr. Vielleicht wusstest du es nicht, weil wir in unserer Gesellschaft nicht gerne darüber sprechen. Es ist an der Zeit, dass wir damit anfangen. In diesem eindringlichen Buch geht Laura Bates, Bestsellerautorin und Gründerin vom The Everday Sexism-Project, auf Spurensuche, um frauenfeindliche Netzwerke zu entlarven. Sie führt Interviews mit ehemaligen Mitgliedern dieser Gruppen und mit Menschen, die gegen sie kämpfen, gibt einzigartige Einblicke in die Funktionsweisen dieser Bewegungen. Dabei taucht sie tief ein und macht sichtbar, wie Ideen aus den dunkelsten Ecken des Internets in Schulen, an Arbeitsplätzen und in Machtpositionen verbreitet und so zu einem Teil unseres kollektiven Bewusstseins werden. Das ist die unbequeme Wahrheit, der wir uns stellen müssen. Aber Laura Bates zeigt uns auch, was wir tun müssen, um diese frauenfeindliche Welt zu verändern.
256 pages, Paperback
First published September 3, 2020
10452 people are currently reading
132102 people want to read
About the author
Laura Bates
21 books2,351 followersLaura Bates is the founder of the Everyday Sexism Project, an ever-increasing collection of over 100,000 testimonies of gender inequality, with branches in 25 countries worldwide. She works closely with politicians, businesses, schools, police forces and organisations from the Council of Europe to the United Nations to tackle gender inequality. She was awarded a British Empire Medal for services to gender equality in the Queen's Birthday Honours list 2015 and has been named a woman of the year by Cosmopolitan, Red Magazine and The Sunday Times Magazine.
Laura is the author of Everyday Sexism, the Sunday Times bestseller Girl Up, and Misogynation. Her first novel, The Burning, was published in 2019. She co-wrote Letters to the Future with Owen Sheers. Laura writes regularly for the Guardian, New York Times and others and won a British Press Award in 2015. She has been a judge for the Women's Prize, the YA Book Prize and the BBC Young Writers Award and part of the committee selecting the 2020 Children's Laureate. In 2019 she was elected a fellow of the Royal Society of Literature.
Laura is a contributor at Women Under Siege, a New York-based project tackling rape in conflict worldwide and she is patron of SARSAS, Somerset and Avon Rape and Sexual Abuse Support. She is the recipient of two honorary degrees and was awarded the Internet and Society Award by the Oxford Internet Institute alongside Sir Tim Berners Lee.
Laura is the author of Everyday Sexism, the Sunday Times bestseller Girl Up, and Misogynation. Her first novel, The Burning, was published in 2019. She co-wrote Letters to the Future with Owen Sheers. Laura writes regularly for the Guardian, New York Times and others and won a British Press Award in 2015. She has been a judge for the Women's Prize, the YA Book Prize and the BBC Young Writers Award and part of the committee selecting the 2020 Children's Laureate. In 2019 she was elected a fellow of the Royal Society of Literature.
Laura is a contributor at Women Under Siege, a New York-based project tackling rape in conflict worldwide and she is patron of SARSAS, Somerset and Avon Rape and Sexual Abuse Support. She is the recipient of two honorary degrees and was awarded the Internet and Society Award by the Oxford Internet Institute alongside Sir Tim Berners Lee.
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Displaying 1 - 30 of 5,104 reviews
October 8, 2020
This is such a depressing book that I just didn’t want to review it because that would make me have to think about the disgusting creeps that Laura Bates writes about. But life is not always spring sunshine and little lambs gamboling in the fields. Some nasty things have to be done, so, onward.
THE MANOSPHERE
That’s what this book is about – various popular places on the internet where men groove around detesting and hating and being sickened by women, feminism and political correctness gone mad (it’s always gone mad - guys, was it ever sane?) and issue very frequent death and rape threats against any woman who gets in the news for anything at all, such as Dr Katie Bouman who was prominent in developing the algorithm that was used to capture the first image of a black hole in April last year. Seriously, these misogynists can’t stand women getting credit for ANYTHING. She got death and rape threats. Yeah.
TAKE YOUR SEATS PLEASE
So, welcome to your this specially ghastly tour of the manosphere, a place you maybe caught sight of out of the corner of your eye once or twice, and hurried by, shuddering. Your seat will be very uncomfortable. Please use the sick bag provided if you feel queasy during your tour. And you will.
The main places of outstanding natural beauty we will be stopping at are :
the INCELS, which is a word meaning “involuntarily celibate”, a state these men blame on women and not their own unattractiveness, so naturally they hate women
the PUAs, which means pick up artists, which is guys promoting methods of picking up girls for casual sex, so naturally they hate women too
a group called MGTOW – pronounced “mig-tau” (= Men Going Their Own Way) and these are men who have seen that the whole of human society is biased against white men, and this has been a tremendous revelation to them so they are going to fight back, so naturally they hate women. Sample blog post : “How to Choke a Woman”.
the MRAs (=Men’s Rights Activists). Seems they used to be feminists but then there was a breakaway group that got much bigger than the original feminist men and yes, the new group hates women too.
Trolls – you know about these little boys – Laura gives us a deeply unpleasant account (and none of this so far has been a stroll in the park you know) of the vicious trolling of women who have any profile at all online – where the mildest insult is that these annoyed men will kill your children in front of you and then kill you. When asked about this stuff they will titter and say it was all ironic, just for the lolz. Don’t get your knickers in a twist.
And we wouldn’t want to miss out
Actual murderers of women, wife batterers, homicidal stalkers, gang rapists, etc. Quite a few of those.
ONLINE ANONYMITY
You might think that if a guy threatens to rape and kill you dozens of times in a day and says he knows where you live he might get a visit from the cops, but this does not happen, mostly.
The complexity of internet anonymity, the importance of freedom of speech, the international nature of the troll population, and the trolls’ technical skills at masking their locations and identities have all contributed to the fact that the problem is widely considered near-unsolveable.
And later she says :
Some of the world’s biggest social media platforms repeatedly throw up their hands and imply that the problem is too difficult to solve, claiming to take extensive action against harassment, but also refusing to disclose detailed records or procedures for tackling it. They release polished PR platitudes about working hard to keep everybody safe online, even as women reporting rape and death threats or graphic images of sexual violence are receiving automated responses telling them that the content “does not violate our community standards”.
I would quote a few of these messages so you can see what we are talking about but they would violate my standards and I hope Goodreads’ standards too.
CONCLUSION
Laura Bates’ point is that this underworld of women hating is seeping upwards and outwards like a black mould on a wall into mainstream media. I won’t recap all her observations here, but I could see her point for sure. This book is like a jolt of electricity, no fun at all.
THE MANOSPHERE
That’s what this book is about – various popular places on the internet where men groove around detesting and hating and being sickened by women, feminism and political correctness gone mad (it’s always gone mad - guys, was it ever sane?) and issue very frequent death and rape threats against any woman who gets in the news for anything at all, such as Dr Katie Bouman who was prominent in developing the algorithm that was used to capture the first image of a black hole in April last year. Seriously, these misogynists can’t stand women getting credit for ANYTHING. She got death and rape threats. Yeah.
TAKE YOUR SEATS PLEASE
So, welcome to your this specially ghastly tour of the manosphere, a place you maybe caught sight of out of the corner of your eye once or twice, and hurried by, shuddering. Your seat will be very uncomfortable. Please use the sick bag provided if you feel queasy during your tour. And you will.
The main places of outstanding natural beauty we will be stopping at are :
the INCELS, which is a word meaning “involuntarily celibate”, a state these men blame on women and not their own unattractiveness, so naturally they hate women
the PUAs, which means pick up artists, which is guys promoting methods of picking up girls for casual sex, so naturally they hate women too
a group called MGTOW – pronounced “mig-tau” (= Men Going Their Own Way) and these are men who have seen that the whole of human society is biased against white men, and this has been a tremendous revelation to them so they are going to fight back, so naturally they hate women. Sample blog post : “How to Choke a Woman”.
the MRAs (=Men’s Rights Activists). Seems they used to be feminists but then there was a breakaway group that got much bigger than the original feminist men and yes, the new group hates women too.
Trolls – you know about these little boys – Laura gives us a deeply unpleasant account (and none of this so far has been a stroll in the park you know) of the vicious trolling of women who have any profile at all online – where the mildest insult is that these annoyed men will kill your children in front of you and then kill you. When asked about this stuff they will titter and say it was all ironic, just for the lolz. Don’t get your knickers in a twist.
And we wouldn’t want to miss out
Actual murderers of women, wife batterers, homicidal stalkers, gang rapists, etc. Quite a few of those.
ONLINE ANONYMITY
You might think that if a guy threatens to rape and kill you dozens of times in a day and says he knows where you live he might get a visit from the cops, but this does not happen, mostly.
The complexity of internet anonymity, the importance of freedom of speech, the international nature of the troll population, and the trolls’ technical skills at masking their locations and identities have all contributed to the fact that the problem is widely considered near-unsolveable.
And later she says :
Some of the world’s biggest social media platforms repeatedly throw up their hands and imply that the problem is too difficult to solve, claiming to take extensive action against harassment, but also refusing to disclose detailed records or procedures for tackling it. They release polished PR platitudes about working hard to keep everybody safe online, even as women reporting rape and death threats or graphic images of sexual violence are receiving automated responses telling them that the content “does not violate our community standards”.
I would quote a few of these messages so you can see what we are talking about but they would violate my standards and I hope Goodreads’ standards too.
CONCLUSION
Laura Bates’ point is that this underworld of women hating is seeping upwards and outwards like a black mould on a wall into mainstream media. I won’t recap all her observations here, but I could see her point for sure. This book is like a jolt of electricity, no fun at all.
August 22, 2023
This was a painful read but a necessary one.
May 10, 2025
Why trying to become a better human, fit, smart, and thereby more attractive, when it´s so much easier to participate in murderous anonymous hate troll slutshaming victim blaming mobs.
And it doesn´t end there, dozens of people have died because incels think that alphas and Stacies, even Beckies, have to die for their crime of working hard and improving themselves to be able to live happy lives. What gets less attention in the media, because it´s such an ugly, huge, evil beast, are the reasons that have been implemented in society for a very long time and get avoided because of political correctness gone mad, bigotry, and not wanting to offend the advertisers. It reminded me of
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/3...
and the following concept: Don´t talk about inequality, because it implies so many problems related to dysfunctional democratic and economic systems. Better talk about poverty and how to reduce it by trickling down! Or, in this case, not about gender inequality and underlying sexism as a foundation of many societies, but about everyday discrimination in the workplace or gender pay gap, never something that digs too deep and criticizes the whole system.
Instead of talking about the dozens of hidden, quietly ignored topics such as sexual abuse, discrimination, accepted daily sexism, ridiculed feminism, making big headlines about the maniacs who kill because they can´t get laid because of their own fault is a priority. It even seems as if there is more media attention and coverage about death threats, honor killings, wealthy white people getting stalked and hate trolled, than about the hundreds of millions of women who suffer from accepted downplayed violence, rape, and often finally homicide. Look at the murder statistics, the most dangerous persons probably live in ones´ house, because it are mostly males who kill parts of or their whole family. What an epic, ultimate fail of hegemonic masculinity and men´s rights movements manosphere. If there are real problems, the superior, rational, better, and higher evolved male human does the only intelligent thing. Kill everyone and oneself or run away and hide afterward.
Before, as sick foreplay, death and rape threats for generally any woman who dares to be successful, famous, an activist or whatever, are an often seen hobby in these peer groups. The way until then could probably also be spend in incel movement, because they unite the idea of the alt right and other extremists with creative, good, oldfashioned models of feminity and the terrorist tactics of seeding fear and panic.
I don´t really get it anymore, it´s like the Onion and other satire news websites had become reality (not as if there were still any differences between real, hard news, fake, and satire). White men, who are the most privileged persons on the planet and are king in discriminating everyone else for centuries, are forming groups like MRA Men rights activists, PUA pick up artists, MGTOW Men going their own way, and the already mentioned, infamous INCELS Involuntary celibates. It´s like rich people doing as if they were poor, this whole thing, these movements make absolutely no sense! They are caricaturing real, very important anti racism and anti sexism movement, playing the victim role, spreading hate, abuse, and rape techniques, and are actively promoting terror and murder. Together in bed with white supremacists, because they don´t get laid by anyone else (just the Incels, I couldn´t withstand that pun), they are very close to fascism and antisemitism and reminded me of a Sartre quote:
“Never believe that anti-Semites are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly since he believes in words. The anti-Semites have the right to play. They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert. If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past.”
https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/7870...
One of the sad ironies is that the incel movement has a solution to all its problems, even a word for it, looksmaxing, but instead of becoming a self improvement community that would make hate obsolete, they prefer to diss the ones that got it how to escape the vicious cycle. The idea of looksmaxing is even so superficial and nihilistic that they don´t understand that they should work hard and over long periods of time to improve their charisma, wit, career, healthy but not steroid fueled body, etc.
Where are the state and the social media companies with their fancy codes of conduct, public responsibility, and lol, business ethics? Well, it´s too difficult and expensive for any kind of public or private internet security and cyberforensic agency or company to hunt all these people, just because they post some dozen rape and death threats a week, have criminal records for sexual offenses, or whatever. Just peanuts and if something happens, well, as said before, short media outcry, a few days of "How could this happen, think of the children" until it goes back to the usual "Walk on, nothing to see here." Of course some downplaying too, boys are boys, groping is just some fun without real victims, she wanted it too, it was an accident that she died, we just wanted to have some fun with her; completely normal and socially accepted stuff.
The underlying social, media, big history, etc. reasons and very complex connections between very stupid societal models and all kind of evil isms have been overvivisected in other reviews of books dealing with the topics, to find in my "feminism equality" and "social criticism" shelves if interested. Enough cheap self promotion, back to the show.
Nature had its reasons to integrate selection, Darwinian evolution, survival of the fittest, and females choosing the best males. Each human is free to learn, exercise, train, do one of the free multi k online video courses on how to be funny, entertaining, an actor, fit, friendly, etc. There is, as said as opening line, no reason or excuse to not invest in ones´ attractiveness, education, and charisma. It´s as if a person with weight problems and no medical issues hasn´t the discipline to change diet, lose weight, and train 3 to 5 times a week, maybe even while watching television, for instance, that´s really possible. And hates slim and fit people because of envy.
It´s as if someone is too lazy and procrastinating (and has the luck of talent, money, or background to be privileged to be able to get an education) to pick a career and hates successful people.
It´s as if someone hasn´t the self discipline to stay sober (without real issues and traumas that kind of legitimize substance abuse to a certain extent) and hates people who can drink moderately.
It´s as if someone who is switching between atheism and religious extremism hates people that are happy, tolerant, and open minded within their religious communities and positive faith.
It´s as sad as it´s mad, but the foundations have been laid in degenerated humanities and ideologies that helped form misogyny, racism, and hatred against anything possible for millennia.
While fragility
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/4...
and
why one can´t talk to white people about race
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/3...
play in here too.
That´s how they roll:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alt-right
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Androce...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bro_cul...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chauvin...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Far-rig...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heterop...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hookup_...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incel
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interne...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machismo
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manosphere
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masculism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Men%27s...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Men_Goi...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phalloc...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pickup_...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxic_m...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_n...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_s...
Check out the sublinks and categories, it gets sicker and deeper into inherent, inbuild social problems linked to dysfunctional political and economic structures. Up and down the hierarchic wiki trees, one inevitably reaches the deep meta area that´s as creepy as the single troll.
Note: Bates is going undercover in online "communities" and there are explicit and very disturbing descriptions of rape, mutilation, and murder fantasies, threats, and general violence, so these passages might be too extreme for some readers.
A wiki walk can be as refreshing to the mind as a walk through nature in this completely overrated real life outside books:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bias
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Categor...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Categor...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Categor...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Categor...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Categor...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Categor...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Categor...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cogniti...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirm...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyberst...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deepfake
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domesti...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effects...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emancip...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Employm...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminiz...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasligh...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_crime
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intra-h...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Media_m...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pickup_...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaga...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychol...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychol...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychol...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_cu...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revenge...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slut-sh...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereot...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unpaid_...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valuati...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victim_...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violenc...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women%2...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Workpla...
Tropes show how literature is conceptualized and created and which mixture of elements makes works and genres unique. In the case of feminism and emancipation, there are many stereotypes, cultural conditioning, social norms, subconsciously forming gender rules:
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...
And it doesn´t end there, dozens of people have died because incels think that alphas and Stacies, even Beckies, have to die for their crime of working hard and improving themselves to be able to live happy lives. What gets less attention in the media, because it´s such an ugly, huge, evil beast, are the reasons that have been implemented in society for a very long time and get avoided because of political correctness gone mad, bigotry, and not wanting to offend the advertisers. It reminded me of
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/3...
and the following concept: Don´t talk about inequality, because it implies so many problems related to dysfunctional democratic and economic systems. Better talk about poverty and how to reduce it by trickling down! Or, in this case, not about gender inequality and underlying sexism as a foundation of many societies, but about everyday discrimination in the workplace or gender pay gap, never something that digs too deep and criticizes the whole system.
Instead of talking about the dozens of hidden, quietly ignored topics such as sexual abuse, discrimination, accepted daily sexism, ridiculed feminism, making big headlines about the maniacs who kill because they can´t get laid because of their own fault is a priority. It even seems as if there is more media attention and coverage about death threats, honor killings, wealthy white people getting stalked and hate trolled, than about the hundreds of millions of women who suffer from accepted downplayed violence, rape, and often finally homicide. Look at the murder statistics, the most dangerous persons probably live in ones´ house, because it are mostly males who kill parts of or their whole family. What an epic, ultimate fail of hegemonic masculinity and men´s rights movements manosphere. If there are real problems, the superior, rational, better, and higher evolved male human does the only intelligent thing. Kill everyone and oneself or run away and hide afterward.
Before, as sick foreplay, death and rape threats for generally any woman who dares to be successful, famous, an activist or whatever, are an often seen hobby in these peer groups. The way until then could probably also be spend in incel movement, because they unite the idea of the alt right and other extremists with creative, good, oldfashioned models of feminity and the terrorist tactics of seeding fear and panic.
I don´t really get it anymore, it´s like the Onion and other satire news websites had become reality (not as if there were still any differences between real, hard news, fake, and satire). White men, who are the most privileged persons on the planet and are king in discriminating everyone else for centuries, are forming groups like MRA Men rights activists, PUA pick up artists, MGTOW Men going their own way, and the already mentioned, infamous INCELS Involuntary celibates. It´s like rich people doing as if they were poor, this whole thing, these movements make absolutely no sense! They are caricaturing real, very important anti racism and anti sexism movement, playing the victim role, spreading hate, abuse, and rape techniques, and are actively promoting terror and murder. Together in bed with white supremacists, because they don´t get laid by anyone else (just the Incels, I couldn´t withstand that pun), they are very close to fascism and antisemitism and reminded me of a Sartre quote:
“Never believe that anti-Semites are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly since he believes in words. The anti-Semites have the right to play. They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert. If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past.”
https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/7870...
One of the sad ironies is that the incel movement has a solution to all its problems, even a word for it, looksmaxing, but instead of becoming a self improvement community that would make hate obsolete, they prefer to diss the ones that got it how to escape the vicious cycle. The idea of looksmaxing is even so superficial and nihilistic that they don´t understand that they should work hard and over long periods of time to improve their charisma, wit, career, healthy but not steroid fueled body, etc.
Where are the state and the social media companies with their fancy codes of conduct, public responsibility, and lol, business ethics? Well, it´s too difficult and expensive for any kind of public or private internet security and cyberforensic agency or company to hunt all these people, just because they post some dozen rape and death threats a week, have criminal records for sexual offenses, or whatever. Just peanuts and if something happens, well, as said before, short media outcry, a few days of "How could this happen, think of the children" until it goes back to the usual "Walk on, nothing to see here." Of course some downplaying too, boys are boys, groping is just some fun without real victims, she wanted it too, it was an accident that she died, we just wanted to have some fun with her; completely normal and socially accepted stuff.
The underlying social, media, big history, etc. reasons and very complex connections between very stupid societal models and all kind of evil isms have been overvivisected in other reviews of books dealing with the topics, to find in my "feminism equality" and "social criticism" shelves if interested. Enough cheap self promotion, back to the show.
Nature had its reasons to integrate selection, Darwinian evolution, survival of the fittest, and females choosing the best males. Each human is free to learn, exercise, train, do one of the free multi k online video courses on how to be funny, entertaining, an actor, fit, friendly, etc. There is, as said as opening line, no reason or excuse to not invest in ones´ attractiveness, education, and charisma. It´s as if a person with weight problems and no medical issues hasn´t the discipline to change diet, lose weight, and train 3 to 5 times a week, maybe even while watching television, for instance, that´s really possible. And hates slim and fit people because of envy.
It´s as if someone is too lazy and procrastinating (and has the luck of talent, money, or background to be privileged to be able to get an education) to pick a career and hates successful people.
It´s as if someone hasn´t the self discipline to stay sober (without real issues and traumas that kind of legitimize substance abuse to a certain extent) and hates people who can drink moderately.
It´s as if someone who is switching between atheism and religious extremism hates people that are happy, tolerant, and open minded within their religious communities and positive faith.
It´s as sad as it´s mad, but the foundations have been laid in degenerated humanities and ideologies that helped form misogyny, racism, and hatred against anything possible for millennia.
While fragility
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/4...
and
why one can´t talk to white people about race
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/3...
play in here too.
That´s how they roll:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alt-right
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Androce...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bro_cul...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chauvin...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Far-rig...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heterop...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hookup_...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incel
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interne...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machismo
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manosphere
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masculism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Men%27s...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Men_Goi...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phalloc...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pickup_...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxic_m...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_n...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_s...
Check out the sublinks and categories, it gets sicker and deeper into inherent, inbuild social problems linked to dysfunctional political and economic structures. Up and down the hierarchic wiki trees, one inevitably reaches the deep meta area that´s as creepy as the single troll.
Note: Bates is going undercover in online "communities" and there are explicit and very disturbing descriptions of rape, mutilation, and murder fantasies, threats, and general violence, so these passages might be too extreme for some readers.
A wiki walk can be as refreshing to the mind as a walk through nature in this completely overrated real life outside books:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bias
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Categor...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Categor...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Categor...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Categor...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Categor...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Categor...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Categor...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cogniti...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirm...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyberst...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deepfake
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domesti...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effects...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emancip...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Employm...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminiz...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasligh...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_crime
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intra-h...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Media_m...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pickup_...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaga...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychol...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychol...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychol...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_cu...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revenge...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slut-sh...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereot...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unpaid_...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valuati...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victim_...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violenc...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women%2...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Workpla...
Tropes show how literature is conceptualized and created and which mixture of elements makes works and genres unique. In the case of feminism and emancipation, there are many stereotypes, cultural conditioning, social norms, subconsciously forming gender rules:
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...
October 5, 2020
But I am interested in the men in between. The boys who fall through the cracks. The ‘good’ men who feel scared. The ones who went looking for help, because they felt frightened or sad or lonely, and haven’t been able to disentangle themselves. The ones who just haven’t heard about any of this yet. The ones who look the other way on the bus. Because we can’t change anything without those men.
I find myself feeling like a different title should have been chosen for this book. It's certainly eye-catching, so I do understand why they picked 'Men Who Hate Women', yet that is actually only the title of the first chapter, and doesn't even begin to scrape the surface of everything this book is about. It's also not just about men, but all kinds of misogyny-- even the kind sadly perpetuated by women.
It's actually a book with a lot of compassion and empathy for young men and boys. Particularly those who have grown up on the internet and have turned to its dark corners for comfort when they've felt insecure and alone. Bates refuses to dehumanise any of the men and women she discusses in this book, even when they would be unwilling to return the favour. And I must caution: Bates goes undercover into Incel and MGTOW forums and some of the quotes she shares contain graphic descriptions of rape and abuse.
You watch as people in urgent need of mental health support, who have somehow found themselves sucked into this whirlpool of misogyny, are met with vitriol, ridicule and incitement to self-harm by other men getting their kicks from online hate.
The author looks at Incels, PUAs, MGTOW, MRAs, Gamergate trolls, domestic abusers, Youtube, and terrorists over the course of this book. It's a lot to digest. One of her main areas of focus is on how we downplay misogynistic remarks and violence, viewing men who make sexist jokes as just "charming rogues". There's often this eye-rolling attitude toward men that they're just silly, just controlled by their natural instincts, just boys being boys, just making locker room talk. This makes it easy to dismiss rampant misogynists as just a silly harmless little group.
I thought Bates was going off on a bizarre tangent at first when she started talking about terrorism, but she makes a pretty convincing case for why misogynistic killing sprees should be viewed as terrorism (they never are).
Actually, this whole topic was very interesting to me. The way news outlets choose their headlines to sell ideas and agendas is not a new subject, though the reminder of it hits hard. Bates notes how crimes committed by white non-Muslim men are rarely labelled "terrorism", and those committed in the name of misogyny never are. A 2017 study showed that terrorist attacks by Muslim perpetrators received 357% more coverage than those by non-Muslims. When James Alex Fields Jr. drove his car into protestors, he was not charged as a terrorist, but Donald Trump and other conservatives were all too eager to throw the "terrorist" label at Black Lives Matter protestors. Because Incel and MGTOW culture are predominantly white movements, they, too, are not taken seriously.
Also: one man who murdered his wife was "driven to it by jealousy" and another who also murdered his wife was "hen-pecked". Bates gives many more examples.
What she's saying, though, is that we shouldn't sit back and let our young boys be seduced by radicals on Youtube and Reddit; that we must not ignore this, must not just belittle these communities and allow them to grow as they are doing. We must take misogyny seriously and acknowledge misogynistic acts of terrorism. We must understand it is not misandrist to do so.
We are too afraid of being labelled ‘misandrists’ or ‘man-haters’, of encountering the traditional cry of ‘not all men’. Yet this is laughably oversimplistic. Of course, it is possible to confront the reality of this threat, and the existence of this movement, without suggesting that it somehow implicates all men. Indeed, as we have already seen, one of the biggest threats it poses is to men themselves.
January 2, 2022
Since posting this review, I have noticed a rather alarming increase in one star reviews that are written by men. It is highly evident that the majority of these individuals haven't actually read this book, and are simply using this opportunity to spread their hate that they have for women, and to blacken Bates name. This in itself, is a solid enough reason why this book needed to be written.
I haven't been hiding under a rock all this time, and I realise that people like this do exist, but reading a 350 page book containing hard facts and testimonies made it sometimes difficult for me to digest. Ultimately, this book is certainly not a walk in the park, it's depressing.
The core subject of this book is "The Manosphere." This is a vile group of men who get together (mainly on the Internet) and systematically hate on women, feminism and apparently get off on sending women threats/death threats whenever something doesn't go their particular way, or, woe betide, a woman receives some recognition for something positive that they did in this world.
These men believe that women are placed here in order to give men sex on tap, and when they don't comply with this, they believe they should be raped. Shockingly, on these Internet group sites, there are even tips on how to go about doing this.
Bates discusses a group called "Incels" which are men that are apparently denied sex by women, but not due to their own faults of course, and therefore they are classed as involuntarily celibate. These men rage a personal war on women, that goes much deeper than the odd sexist remark here and there. This is hatred, in it's purest and darkest form.
Another group that Bates discusses in some detail, are "trolls."Now, we all know about trolls online, and the problems they cause, but when men get together online and threaten to kill your children while you sleep, I think it's time people wake the hell up. You may think a threat such as that warrants an immediate and swift arrest, but unfortunately, that isn't the case. Apparently, hiding identities and locations online, is easy to do if you know how, and freedom of speech isn't always an arrestable offence. Personally, from the perspective of a feminist, I strongly disagree. If someone is threatening to kill you, in whatever form that is, that person accountable should be punished.
I think what disturbs me more, is that there are men on GR, that appear to be defending "The Manosphere" or weirdly enough, claiming that it doesn't actually exist.
There are a vast array of examples and excerpts that Bates has included in this book, some that she has personally received, sometimes on a daily basis, but I'm not willing to post them here, so you'll just have to read this for yourself.
I haven't been hiding under a rock all this time, and I realise that people like this do exist, but reading a 350 page book containing hard facts and testimonies made it sometimes difficult for me to digest. Ultimately, this book is certainly not a walk in the park, it's depressing.
The core subject of this book is "The Manosphere." This is a vile group of men who get together (mainly on the Internet) and systematically hate on women, feminism and apparently get off on sending women threats/death threats whenever something doesn't go their particular way, or, woe betide, a woman receives some recognition for something positive that they did in this world.
These men believe that women are placed here in order to give men sex on tap, and when they don't comply with this, they believe they should be raped. Shockingly, on these Internet group sites, there are even tips on how to go about doing this.
Bates discusses a group called "Incels" which are men that are apparently denied sex by women, but not due to their own faults of course, and therefore they are classed as involuntarily celibate. These men rage a personal war on women, that goes much deeper than the odd sexist remark here and there. This is hatred, in it's purest and darkest form.
Another group that Bates discusses in some detail, are "trolls."Now, we all know about trolls online, and the problems they cause, but when men get together online and threaten to kill your children while you sleep, I think it's time people wake the hell up. You may think a threat such as that warrants an immediate and swift arrest, but unfortunately, that isn't the case. Apparently, hiding identities and locations online, is easy to do if you know how, and freedom of speech isn't always an arrestable offence. Personally, from the perspective of a feminist, I strongly disagree. If someone is threatening to kill you, in whatever form that is, that person accountable should be punished.
I think what disturbs me more, is that there are men on GR, that appear to be defending "The Manosphere" or weirdly enough, claiming that it doesn't actually exist.
There are a vast array of examples and excerpts that Bates has included in this book, some that she has personally received, sometimes on a daily basis, but I'm not willing to post them here, so you'll just have to read this for yourself.
August 9, 2022
An important book about a horrifying topic we need to talk about. In Men Who Hate Women, Laura Bates discusses the roots of misogyny and how they manifest in online communities such as incels, pickup artists, trolls, and more. She does a great job of describing the online radicalization process of vulnerable young boys and men into these sexist and violent spaces. I’m gonna describe some of my key takeaways:
1) As a society we (people of all genders, though especially men) need to take the threats of incels and similar populations seriously. They’re not just a “fringe group,” rather, their beliefs have permeated and affected women across multiple domains of contemporary life and have literally led to sexual assault, mass shootings, and other forms of terrifying violence.
2) I think Bates writes well about holding two truths at once, a) that a lot, or at least some of these men on these forums and such feel insecure and defeated in life through circumstances not of their own doing (e.g., the man she writes about who was abused as a child and has physical scarring due to his parents’ mistreatment) and b) misogyny and violence are not appropriate ways to cope with those feelings. It’s important that we as a society think of ways to foster healthy vulnerability and emotional processing in boys and men.
3) The internet is a big yikes?? Bates explores how boys view and gain access to sexist, defamatory, anti-feminist content on platforms such as YouTube without much effort from the boys themselves. I think this issue requires a multifaceted approach though if I had a son I’d be talking about this issue with him ASAP – parents of boys watch out because it’s awful out there.
4) Media outlets may consider putting an end to platforming false equivalency arguments, or the notion that just because someone provides a sexist/misogynist idea that that idea deserves any airtime – or at least airtime that doesn’t rebuke that idea thoroughly. Bates names an interesting tension between not wanting to give misogynists airtime and at the same time not wanting to censor them lest they claim the victim card. At this point I think it’s important to at least call out misogyny and sexism when it happens.
Overall a great book. I think the writing style itself can feel a little repetitive though that doesn’t detract from the important takeaways and real-world implications of these topics. I appreciate Bates’s courage in writing this book especially given the rampant sexism she’s experienced due to her outspokenness.
1) As a society we (people of all genders, though especially men) need to take the threats of incels and similar populations seriously. They’re not just a “fringe group,” rather, their beliefs have permeated and affected women across multiple domains of contemporary life and have literally led to sexual assault, mass shootings, and other forms of terrifying violence.
2) I think Bates writes well about holding two truths at once, a) that a lot, or at least some of these men on these forums and such feel insecure and defeated in life through circumstances not of their own doing (e.g., the man she writes about who was abused as a child and has physical scarring due to his parents’ mistreatment) and b) misogyny and violence are not appropriate ways to cope with those feelings. It’s important that we as a society think of ways to foster healthy vulnerability and emotional processing in boys and men.
3) The internet is a big yikes?? Bates explores how boys view and gain access to sexist, defamatory, anti-feminist content on platforms such as YouTube without much effort from the boys themselves. I think this issue requires a multifaceted approach though if I had a son I’d be talking about this issue with him ASAP – parents of boys watch out because it’s awful out there.
4) Media outlets may consider putting an end to platforming false equivalency arguments, or the notion that just because someone provides a sexist/misogynist idea that that idea deserves any airtime – or at least airtime that doesn’t rebuke that idea thoroughly. Bates names an interesting tension between not wanting to give misogynists airtime and at the same time not wanting to censor them lest they claim the victim card. At this point I think it’s important to at least call out misogyny and sexism when it happens.
Overall a great book. I think the writing style itself can feel a little repetitive though that doesn’t detract from the important takeaways and real-world implications of these topics. I appreciate Bates’s courage in writing this book especially given the rampant sexism she’s experienced due to her outspokenness.
October 6, 2020
This book is not yet available in the US. I had to order a copy from a UK book seller.
When I read this book, I was amazed at the hysteria, misandry and androphobia that drives the author's views.
There is almost nothing in the book that is not based on false information and fiction. For example, Laura Bates (the author) claims she was at a UK men's conference. I checked with three people who were in charge of the conference (all three of them are women) and they informed me that she was never at the conference.
Bates claims in her book that men want to "repeal rape laws." This is just silly. Men, and the manosphere do not advocate a repeal of rape laws. The UK, being a backwards and prudish country, has a sexist rape statute in which only men can be charged with rape. Men and the manosphere want the law changed to permit prosecutors to charge women with rape (especially when women rape boys) so that the rape law is gender neutral (as it is in civilized and enlightened nations).
As another example, Bates makes the following claim: “This is a radical, extremist movement, at least tens of thousands of members strong, that deliberately spreads a doctrine of hate-fuelled misogyny and male supremacy, and actively advocates for the violent rape and murder of women." This claim is just as silly as any other claim that Bates makes in the book. She is referring to one incident in Canada in which a man had a car accident and he had posted comments in a group known as INCELS (involuntary celibates).
INCELS are hardly a "movement" and do not in any way advocate violence against women. INCELS is a definable group of people, including women, who have difficulty finding and sustaining intimate relationships. Almost every single male "INCEL" shows overt symptoms of having been sexually assaulted by a woman when he was a boy. These men deserve compassion and assistance because the women who raped or molested them when they were boys impaired their neurological and psycho-social development.
In short, Bates' book is nothing more than a diatribe and propaganda. It is hate speech against men and men's efforts to attain gender equality.
The publisher, Simon & Schuster was once a reputable publisher, however, it is now clear that for profits it has sold out its ethics, principles and morals to the feminist hate movement.
John Davis
When I read this book, I was amazed at the hysteria, misandry and androphobia that drives the author's views.
There is almost nothing in the book that is not based on false information and fiction. For example, Laura Bates (the author) claims she was at a UK men's conference. I checked with three people who were in charge of the conference (all three of them are women) and they informed me that she was never at the conference.
Bates claims in her book that men want to "repeal rape laws." This is just silly. Men, and the manosphere do not advocate a repeal of rape laws. The UK, being a backwards and prudish country, has a sexist rape statute in which only men can be charged with rape. Men and the manosphere want the law changed to permit prosecutors to charge women with rape (especially when women rape boys) so that the rape law is gender neutral (as it is in civilized and enlightened nations).
As another example, Bates makes the following claim: “This is a radical, extremist movement, at least tens of thousands of members strong, that deliberately spreads a doctrine of hate-fuelled misogyny and male supremacy, and actively advocates for the violent rape and murder of women." This claim is just as silly as any other claim that Bates makes in the book. She is referring to one incident in Canada in which a man had a car accident and he had posted comments in a group known as INCELS (involuntary celibates).
INCELS are hardly a "movement" and do not in any way advocate violence against women. INCELS is a definable group of people, including women, who have difficulty finding and sustaining intimate relationships. Almost every single male "INCEL" shows overt symptoms of having been sexually assaulted by a woman when he was a boy. These men deserve compassion and assistance because the women who raped or molested them when they were boys impaired their neurological and psycho-social development.
In short, Bates' book is nothing more than a diatribe and propaganda. It is hate speech against men and men's efforts to attain gender equality.
The publisher, Simon & Schuster was once a reputable publisher, however, it is now clear that for profits it has sold out its ethics, principles and morals to the feminist hate movement.
John Davis
December 2, 2022
ONLY READ THIS BOOK IF YOU HAVE NERVES OF STEEL
I struggled with rating this book. Because the subject matter was so... disturbing. So revolting, so upsetting. I had to call my mother after reading this just to get it out my system. I was horrified, angry, and agitated throughout this book. So you can't say that I liked reading it. But this is an IMPORTANT book. It's an important subject matter to look into and spread awareness about. And you cannot fault Bates' professionalism, journalism or commitment. I have the highest respect for her. And I recommend this book to anyone who says "Sexism isn't hurting anybody" or "Don't we already have equality" - just make sure you're robust enough to learn the truth.
ARC provided by the publisher through NetGalley in exchange for an honest review
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I struggled with rating this book. Because the subject matter was so... disturbing. So revolting, so upsetting. I had to call my mother after reading this just to get it out my system. I was horrified, angry, and agitated throughout this book. So you can't say that I liked reading it. But this is an IMPORTANT book. It's an important subject matter to look into and spread awareness about. And you cannot fault Bates' professionalism, journalism or commitment. I have the highest respect for her. And I recommend this book to anyone who says "Sexism isn't hurting anybody" or "Don't we already have equality" - just make sure you're robust enough to learn the truth.
ARC provided by the publisher through NetGalley in exchange for an honest review
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January 24, 2022
I don't usually write reviews, but wanted to justify my rating considering the massive number of 4 and 5 star reviews this book has received. Firstly, I did really enjoy it, and would definitely recommend it to someone wanting an introduction to the different elements of misogyny within society. As others have noted, each chapter very usefully is dedicated to a different segment of the 'manosphere', be it incels, pick-up artists, mens rights activists, etc. which gives good accounts of the nuances and ideologies of each. However, I have a few criticisms which have stopped me from giving it a higher rating:
1. As some others have noted, there is very limited structure or direction within the individual (sometimes reasonably long) chapters. This results in something of a 'stream of consciousness' vibe, in which it can feel more like I'm reading someone's general thoughts regarding the manosphere, rather than a sustained argument. This both makes it slightly difficult to read in places, and undermines the strength of the message.
2. The analysis that was there, I felt was somewhat lacking. This might be my own background talking - I'm a researcher within the international relations field, and have come across these issues many times before. Subsequently, it felt at times that some of the evidence used to back up her assertions was fairly anecdotal, and at times incommensurate. This is not to say that many of her assertions are not true - they are, they're just poorly demonstrated in some cases, which again undermines the strength of the argument. She is also fond of a broad, sweeping statement to try to drive her point home, which tended to only highlight to me the lack of nuance in some of her arguments.
Overall, I think that this book's main strength is its description of the manosphere and the various sub-groupings of which it is made up. Unfortunately, the analytical side is less developed. Still, a very worthwhile read for anyone wanting to get to grips with modern misogyny and how it can influence our daily lives!
1. As some others have noted, there is very limited structure or direction within the individual (sometimes reasonably long) chapters. This results in something of a 'stream of consciousness' vibe, in which it can feel more like I'm reading someone's general thoughts regarding the manosphere, rather than a sustained argument. This both makes it slightly difficult to read in places, and undermines the strength of the message.
2. The analysis that was there, I felt was somewhat lacking. This might be my own background talking - I'm a researcher within the international relations field, and have come across these issues many times before. Subsequently, it felt at times that some of the evidence used to back up her assertions was fairly anecdotal, and at times incommensurate. This is not to say that many of her assertions are not true - they are, they're just poorly demonstrated in some cases, which again undermines the strength of the argument. She is also fond of a broad, sweeping statement to try to drive her point home, which tended to only highlight to me the lack of nuance in some of her arguments.
Overall, I think that this book's main strength is its description of the manosphere and the various sub-groupings of which it is made up. Unfortunately, the analytical side is less developed. Still, a very worthwhile read for anyone wanting to get to grips with modern misogyny and how it can influence our daily lives!
January 13, 2026
Germaine Greer once said "Women have very little idea of how much men hate them." I've long been sceptical of this assertion since, if the statistics on the number of women who have experienced sexual harassment of some form are correct, the majority have at least some idea. In any case, it's a moot point because the Internet must by now have left women in no doubt about just how widespread misogyny is, at least in the English-speaking world. Laura Bates does a super job here of covering all the bases of the contemporary woman-hating communities, from incels to pick-up artists (as the subtitle says) to men-going-their-own-way. This is a journalistic rather than academic treatment of the subject but I say this not to detract from Bates's in-depth research and hard work; sometimes an academic approach fails to communicate the urgency of the need to confront the problem discussed. Bates makes clear that something has to be done and fast, sympathizing with the principal victims of misogyny while also empathizing with the victims of a patriarchal toxic masculinity that allows emotionally immature and fragile young men to be preyed upon by grifters selling them certainty, security, and a sense of belonging. A book every man should read (and any women who still have their doubts!).
August 17, 2024
4.5/5
Pod każdym względem zasługuje na wysoką ocenę — poziom researchu i „wgłębienia się w temat” autorki jest godne podziwu. Cała ta pozycja przesiąknięta jest jadem manosfery, trudna, przerażająca. A to po prostu świat, w którym żyjemy.
Podejrzewam, że nie trafi do tych, którzy najbardziej jej potrzebują i to mnie smuci najbardziej.
Pod każdym względem zasługuje na wysoką ocenę — poziom researchu i „wgłębienia się w temat” autorki jest godne podziwu. Cała ta pozycja przesiąknięta jest jadem manosfery, trudna, przerażająca. A to po prostu świat, w którym żyjemy.
Podejrzewam, że nie trafi do tych, którzy najbardziej jej potrzebują i to mnie smuci najbardziej.
October 26, 2020
This is a depressing but necessary read. As a woman on Twitter I’ve had my experience of men spewing hate at me (once over a pic of a banana cutter?!?) so the contents of this book did not surprise me. But the depth of the hate and the trickle down nature of it into mainstream media and society does make me despair.
I admire Laura for her bravery in writing such a book. I often second guess myself about writing a tweet about something like ‘toxic masculinity’ because I don’t want to deal with the hate that will inevitably come my way (and I’ve only got like 200 followers so I can only imagine how much hate Laura receives daily online.)
I’ve no doubt that this book will receive many one star reviews from men that feel challenged by Laura, but believe me - this is a worthwhile read!
I admire Laura for her bravery in writing such a book. I often second guess myself about writing a tweet about something like ‘toxic masculinity’ because I don’t want to deal with the hate that will inevitably come my way (and I’ve only got like 200 followers so I can only imagine how much hate Laura receives daily online.)
I’ve no doubt that this book will receive many one star reviews from men that feel challenged by Laura, but believe me - this is a worthwhile read!
June 20, 2021
Not for the faint of heart, as there is a lot of distressing stuff in here. It's like feeling compelled to stare at a car accident that you're passing. This is a book about a tiny minority of men who are loud and more stealthily influential than they ought to be. It makes me sad for these people who choose to hate others that they perceive as different. They believe that they have to lose status if others gain it, instead of both parties being equal. I think in reality everyone gains from a more inclusive, diverse society. Change is not bad, although it's not easy either.
I have sympathy for men, who often get shoved into an uncomfortable gender role straight jacket. They can be shamed for having feelings other than anger and told that caring about others is weak, when it is actually a strength. Men do have higher suicide rates (and they tend to choose more effective methods) and they seem to perceive more barriers between themselves and mental health services.
The extremists find reinforcement on the internet. When we lived in small communities where we knew a bit about many of our neighbours, we knew who held these kinds of views and they didn't receive much, if any, approval. Now you can live next door to someone who secretly hates you and not be aware of it. The scary part is the high profiles of the haters on platforms like YouTube, Instagram, and Twitter where they are easily accessed by teens, who get indoctrinated early. Make no mistake, this is radicalization. If brown or black people were the leaders, this would have been labeled as terrorism immediately.
It doesn't help that politicians (still largely men) find misogynistic and xenophobic messaging works for them. The media is reluctant to admit that white supremacy is closely linked to male supremacist ideology. Police are disinclined to label the actions of white perpetrators as terrorism. There are academics and some women who seem to be happy to give extremist views a pseudo reputable aura.
I’ve found myself looking at the news in a different way since I started reading this book. Recently, in London, Ontario, there was a driver who purposefully plowed into a Muslim family who were out for an evening stroll. He killed 4 of them, leaving an injured and orphaned nine year old. I don't know that it will be reported, but I have to wonder if the driver was a reader of all this vitriol on the internet. The authors of this venom seem to hate everyone and encourage this kind of behaviour. I think that's one of the characteristics, actually, that these haters don't even like other men very much, let alone people of other races, genders, or religions.
I was so thankful for the chapter on men who are trying to do something about this issue. Truly, if a man despises women, he's not going to be influenced by female opinions or points of view. Basic media literacy started young is imperative. Young women can benefit from it too. Learning how to evaluate sources for credibility. And, as one educator says, you have to take it where men are, not ask them to come to you. Most importantly, men have to be the source of a new masculinity. They have to give themselves the freedom to combat loneliness, find meaning, and seek friendship & love. Role models are crucial, both celebrities and members of the community. We need to find them and celebrate them.
I’ve been relatively reclusive since I retired but I feel like I need to find a volunteer position to help counteract this trend. I also find myself wanting to find appropriate charities to contribute to—mental health services, suicide prevention, domestic abuse prevention, youth activities, etc. I'd like to be part of the solution, not just a bystander. It's something I feel strongly about because of the many men & boys in my life that I love dearly.
I have sympathy for men, who often get shoved into an uncomfortable gender role straight jacket. They can be shamed for having feelings other than anger and told that caring about others is weak, when it is actually a strength. Men do have higher suicide rates (and they tend to choose more effective methods) and they seem to perceive more barriers between themselves and mental health services.
The extremists find reinforcement on the internet. When we lived in small communities where we knew a bit about many of our neighbours, we knew who held these kinds of views and they didn't receive much, if any, approval. Now you can live next door to someone who secretly hates you and not be aware of it. The scary part is the high profiles of the haters on platforms like YouTube, Instagram, and Twitter where they are easily accessed by teens, who get indoctrinated early. Make no mistake, this is radicalization. If brown or black people were the leaders, this would have been labeled as terrorism immediately.
It doesn't help that politicians (still largely men) find misogynistic and xenophobic messaging works for them. The media is reluctant to admit that white supremacy is closely linked to male supremacist ideology. Police are disinclined to label the actions of white perpetrators as terrorism. There are academics and some women who seem to be happy to give extremist views a pseudo reputable aura.
I’ve found myself looking at the news in a different way since I started reading this book. Recently, in London, Ontario, there was a driver who purposefully plowed into a Muslim family who were out for an evening stroll. He killed 4 of them, leaving an injured and orphaned nine year old. I don't know that it will be reported, but I have to wonder if the driver was a reader of all this vitriol on the internet. The authors of this venom seem to hate everyone and encourage this kind of behaviour. I think that's one of the characteristics, actually, that these haters don't even like other men very much, let alone people of other races, genders, or religions.
I was so thankful for the chapter on men who are trying to do something about this issue. Truly, if a man despises women, he's not going to be influenced by female opinions or points of view. Basic media literacy started young is imperative. Young women can benefit from it too. Learning how to evaluate sources for credibility. And, as one educator says, you have to take it where men are, not ask them to come to you. Most importantly, men have to be the source of a new masculinity. They have to give themselves the freedom to combat loneliness, find meaning, and seek friendship & love. Role models are crucial, both celebrities and members of the community. We need to find them and celebrate them.
I’ve been relatively reclusive since I retired but I feel like I need to find a volunteer position to help counteract this trend. I also find myself wanting to find appropriate charities to contribute to—mental health services, suicide prevention, domestic abuse prevention, youth activities, etc. I'd like to be part of the solution, not just a bystander. It's something I feel strongly about because of the many men & boys in my life that I love dearly.
September 30, 2020
As one might imagine, this isn’t a pleasant read. But it’s an urgent and, I think, important one.
I feel that some personal background would be relevant to this review. Please bare with — When I first went to university, I found myself surrounded by a whole load of young men who clearly had little expedience with women. I’d come from a very different background to these guys; I had two sisters with whom I’d always been close; I’d had female friends; I’d had a long-term girlfriend; I’d always been in mix-sex education. Truth be told, I generally felt more comfortable with women — and I’d apparently been isolated from, or been too ignorant to notice, blatant sexism. My childhood had been unconventional, in so much as I was raised abroad until my mid-teens. I hadn’t fully perceived the extent to which women (especially young women) are relentlessly sexualised by society. This was ten years ago now, and since then, I’ve really woken up to a lot.
But, back to those fellow male undergraduates... Very quickly, I realised that these guys had an entirely different outlook regarding what women were to them. For these guys, women weren’t really people. They were objects, and objects to be possessed — to be used, or collected, and ultimately discarded one by one. I had fallen in with a bunch of “The Game” worshiping brutes who genuinely didn’t seem to think of women as being on their level. For them, girls were not seen in terms of human beings. The ways they spoke about women was frankly alien to me. And I was caught so unawares that for a period I didn’t realise the extent, nor the sheer vitriol, of their contempt. The thing is, in other respects, these were cultivated, intelligent and interesting young men. They could hold a conversation about philosophy or politics or art history. They were exceedingly well educated — more so, frankly, than I was. And in many ways I was in awe of them. I felt comparatively inept in a whole host of ways. As a result, it was a while before I cottoned onto quite how toxic the views of this group were.
From the outset, one of them kept urging me to check out this book he’d just finished reading: ‘The Game’. I wasn’t hugely interested, as it sounded naff to me. I’d had girlfriends before, and still wasn’t “over” a long term relationship which had ended prior to my going to university; I wasn’t hugely het up about starting another one. But these guys didn’t want “relationships”. What they wanted was sex. More specifically, they wanted the “conquest” of as many girls as they could. And they genuinely seemed to think that this was a legitimate goal, a way of bettering their status.
I’ll cut the story short there. Essentially, I woke up to what I’d fallen into. And when, as a fairly inexperienced young person, I challenged these guys on their attitudes, they turned on me. They helped make the next year fairly hellish. 18 months into my degree, I ended up quitting that university — in main part because of the relentless backlash I received.
So, no, the preamble above isn’t necessary. But those events really influenced my awareness of the sexism alive in society, and they informed my reading of this book. I’ve spent the last few years uncomfortably aware that sexism doesn’t seem to be going away. Yes, there have been improvements. Many of the more obvious/outward segments of our world seem to be taking steps in the right direction. But what I’m concerned by are the internal beliefs and actions of men. Especially young men and boys. Because what I’ve noticed is a hardening of sexist attitudes, and especially the increasing frequency of what I’d call extreme beliefs — such as the notion that women lie about men raping them.
Laura Bate’s book essentially goes through and brings into sharp relief everything (and more!) that I’ve felt uneasy about for the last five-or-so years regarding sexism. (I suspect that I came to this with more background knowledge than some — I’ve probably spent too much time on the internet!) I’ve been palpably aware of the way women are talked about in, for instance, the world of online gaming. I’ve noticed that it’s apparently fine for blatant misogynists to achieve high office. I am continually disturbed by the way many male acquaintances will talk differently amongst one another when there’s no female presence. I am too frequently sickened by the “banter” that we’re apparently meant to find funny or turn a blind eye to. I am horrified by some of the dating stories I’ve heard narrated by female friends. And I remain bewildered when the connection to hardcore misogyny is never raised as a connecting factor in case after case of mass murder.
There is just so much that I’ve felt needed to be said, that Laura Bates eloquently, straightforwardly and boldly lays out in this book. It is a really compelling and much needed piece of work.
A single niggle: The book focuses almost exclusively on the English-speaking world, and I would very much have liked it to go a little further, broadening things out to an international scale. I appreciate that this would be an even more titanic effort! I say this, because, as someone who’s travelled a lot, these issues are not unique to the West. In my experience, things are actually far worse elsewhere. Violence towards women and girls remains something that far too few people talk about.
The truth seems to be that the internet, and specifically anonymous forums and services such as WhatsApp/Discord/etc., has enabled extremely potent extremism to spread and procreate. It is now blissfully easy for people to become indoctrinated into all sorts of whack beliefs. And I entirely agree with Bates about the fact that these once extreme points of view are increasingly filtering through to mainstream media, popping up in parliaments, locker rooms, classrooms, pub tables.
At any rate — The takeaway: read this book! Everyone should do so. But especially, I feel, parents of boys. So much of the language to do with women that boys come across online (and via gaming) is extreme. Paired with the proliferation of pornography, I can understand how it can become normal to see women as less than human. (Frankly, I am eternally grateful I never had such exposure during my formative years.)
Teachers too need to read this. It’s only through knowing what a problem is that tackling it can become an option. And I really don’t think enough people are fully aware of how deep-seated this stuff is. For a significant, and growing, number of individuals to hate half the human race with such unbridled fervour is genuinely scary. Somehow, this needs to be turned around. Reading ‘Men Who Hate Women’ is an excellent first step. Go do it. Now.
I feel that some personal background would be relevant to this review. Please bare with — When I first went to university, I found myself surrounded by a whole load of young men who clearly had little expedience with women. I’d come from a very different background to these guys; I had two sisters with whom I’d always been close; I’d had female friends; I’d had a long-term girlfriend; I’d always been in mix-sex education. Truth be told, I generally felt more comfortable with women — and I’d apparently been isolated from, or been too ignorant to notice, blatant sexism. My childhood had been unconventional, in so much as I was raised abroad until my mid-teens. I hadn’t fully perceived the extent to which women (especially young women) are relentlessly sexualised by society. This was ten years ago now, and since then, I’ve really woken up to a lot.
But, back to those fellow male undergraduates... Very quickly, I realised that these guys had an entirely different outlook regarding what women were to them. For these guys, women weren’t really people. They were objects, and objects to be possessed — to be used, or collected, and ultimately discarded one by one. I had fallen in with a bunch of “The Game” worshiping brutes who genuinely didn’t seem to think of women as being on their level. For them, girls were not seen in terms of human beings. The ways they spoke about women was frankly alien to me. And I was caught so unawares that for a period I didn’t realise the extent, nor the sheer vitriol, of their contempt. The thing is, in other respects, these were cultivated, intelligent and interesting young men. They could hold a conversation about philosophy or politics or art history. They were exceedingly well educated — more so, frankly, than I was. And in many ways I was in awe of them. I felt comparatively inept in a whole host of ways. As a result, it was a while before I cottoned onto quite how toxic the views of this group were.
From the outset, one of them kept urging me to check out this book he’d just finished reading: ‘The Game’. I wasn’t hugely interested, as it sounded naff to me. I’d had girlfriends before, and still wasn’t “over” a long term relationship which had ended prior to my going to university; I wasn’t hugely het up about starting another one. But these guys didn’t want “relationships”. What they wanted was sex. More specifically, they wanted the “conquest” of as many girls as they could. And they genuinely seemed to think that this was a legitimate goal, a way of bettering their status.
I’ll cut the story short there. Essentially, I woke up to what I’d fallen into. And when, as a fairly inexperienced young person, I challenged these guys on their attitudes, they turned on me. They helped make the next year fairly hellish. 18 months into my degree, I ended up quitting that university — in main part because of the relentless backlash I received.
So, no, the preamble above isn’t necessary. But those events really influenced my awareness of the sexism alive in society, and they informed my reading of this book. I’ve spent the last few years uncomfortably aware that sexism doesn’t seem to be going away. Yes, there have been improvements. Many of the more obvious/outward segments of our world seem to be taking steps in the right direction. But what I’m concerned by are the internal beliefs and actions of men. Especially young men and boys. Because what I’ve noticed is a hardening of sexist attitudes, and especially the increasing frequency of what I’d call extreme beliefs — such as the notion that women lie about men raping them.
Laura Bate’s book essentially goes through and brings into sharp relief everything (and more!) that I’ve felt uneasy about for the last five-or-so years regarding sexism. (I suspect that I came to this with more background knowledge than some — I’ve probably spent too much time on the internet!) I’ve been palpably aware of the way women are talked about in, for instance, the world of online gaming. I’ve noticed that it’s apparently fine for blatant misogynists to achieve high office. I am continually disturbed by the way many male acquaintances will talk differently amongst one another when there’s no female presence. I am too frequently sickened by the “banter” that we’re apparently meant to find funny or turn a blind eye to. I am horrified by some of the dating stories I’ve heard narrated by female friends. And I remain bewildered when the connection to hardcore misogyny is never raised as a connecting factor in case after case of mass murder.
There is just so much that I’ve felt needed to be said, that Laura Bates eloquently, straightforwardly and boldly lays out in this book. It is a really compelling and much needed piece of work.
A single niggle: The book focuses almost exclusively on the English-speaking world, and I would very much have liked it to go a little further, broadening things out to an international scale. I appreciate that this would be an even more titanic effort! I say this, because, as someone who’s travelled a lot, these issues are not unique to the West. In my experience, things are actually far worse elsewhere. Violence towards women and girls remains something that far too few people talk about.
The truth seems to be that the internet, and specifically anonymous forums and services such as WhatsApp/Discord/etc., has enabled extremely potent extremism to spread and procreate. It is now blissfully easy for people to become indoctrinated into all sorts of whack beliefs. And I entirely agree with Bates about the fact that these once extreme points of view are increasingly filtering through to mainstream media, popping up in parliaments, locker rooms, classrooms, pub tables.
At any rate — The takeaway: read this book! Everyone should do so. But especially, I feel, parents of boys. So much of the language to do with women that boys come across online (and via gaming) is extreme. Paired with the proliferation of pornography, I can understand how it can become normal to see women as less than human. (Frankly, I am eternally grateful I never had such exposure during my formative years.)
Teachers too need to read this. It’s only through knowing what a problem is that tackling it can become an option. And I really don’t think enough people are fully aware of how deep-seated this stuff is. For a significant, and growing, number of individuals to hate half the human race with such unbridled fervour is genuinely scary. Somehow, this needs to be turned around. Reading ‘Men Who Hate Women’ is an excellent first step. Go do it. Now.
September 1, 2021
I really, really want to give this a higher rating because it's about an extremely important topic, but unfortunately I found the writing difficult to slog through. I understand that this is trying to be a broad introduction to a very large and chaotic concept, but neither the book nor the individual chapters had much in the way of a narrative anchor. Instead the author just flits from topic to topic and story to story and the end result feels very shallow and disorganized. I do still think it could be a good introduction for readers who are unfamiliar with the concept of the manosphere, but it could have been much better written.
September 23, 2020
Horrifying, disturbing, but essential reading.
September 11, 2020
I have the (mis)fortune of being very aware and very well-versed in the language of the manosphere and their tactics, their beliefs and the extent of their influence on the "real", offline world. Bates has an even bigger misfortune of being vocal enough, smart enough and brave enough to do a full blown research into their connection with the power structures, politicians, policy making and the absolute lack of any apparent desire to do anything about their spread. I am a feminist researcher and educator myself and have long argued that crimes against women and girls should be treated as hate crimes and mass shootings because men didn't get all the sex they wanted as acts of terrorism. To see it all argued so clearly, robustly and bravely in writing has been nothing short of amazing. Bates will get a ton of blow back for this book, including incredibly idiotic takes that the only thing she has proven is that if you look hard enough you can find all sorts of garbage on the Internet. That is false, over-simplistic and willfully blind to the level of rigor that went into this research. There is a crisis of masculinity, it just isn't created by feminists. Spoiler alert, it is created by other men.
February 28, 2023
This is the most scariest, horrifying read I've read in my entire life because it's highlights the real hatred some groups of men have. I was aware of some of the groups of guys before I read this, and some cases of described. However I was absolutely horrified. I agree this is an important book to read but due to all the trigger warnings and very disturbing ways the hateful ideas shows, and is written down. I'm highly recommending not reading this if your feeling down mentally or have someone to went and discuss with. As it will most likely wake up fears and other. I recommend this but be aware this is very disturbing.
January 29, 2023
Eye opening and horrifying. Uncomfortable but important.
August 15, 2024
It’s only hot girl summer if you're reading about feminism, I don’t make the rules. Also...buckle up for my longest review yet.
I’m going to be honest- I picked this up because I was morbidly fascinated by incels. They are disgusting and pitiful, and I wanted to know more about these vitriolic men- fedoras, neckbeards, and all. If you are like me, I’ll tell you that you do get a very deep dive into incel spaces. However, after having read the book I am ashamed that I had such a surface level understanding of the problem. It is so easy to reduce this phenomenon to memes about misogynistic men like incels and dismissing them a group to be mocked and underestimated. But this book was so much more, and I am beyond grateful to have read it.
Men Who Hate Women is written in such a cogent way, you feel like you are being guided by the hand through a dark and daunting cave by a capable Indiana Jones-type. The author doesn’t bullshit you. We are beyond the point for bullshit with this problem. Rather, she explicitly breaks down misogynist strategies so that we may be aware when we see them. The book is broken down into chapters on the different facets of the “Manosphere”- the group of online anti-feminist communities. For example, “Men Who hate women” discusses incels and “Men Who Blame Women,” she takes a look at the Men’s Rights Activists. The way the book is organized worked to create a productive and accessible mind map of the Manosphere.
I would venture to say that most of us are aware of how ridiculous incel logic is and that misogyny is objectively bad. But I think most of us have no idea why and how these men have come to hate women with such fervor. And how do we protect the vulnerable young men who fall susceptible to this broken logic? Bates does the legwork to show exactly how it is that incels and other extremists have become this way in order to explore solutions. One big theme of the book is how the rigid gender stereotypes perpetuated by the Manosphere are the very ones that cause the most harm to the vulnerable men within it who face very real problems caused by mental illness and self-esteem problems. My biggest takeaway was how deliberate Manosphere campaigns are. I try to assume incompetence before malice and prior to reading this book I would’ve never guessed that these groups are spoon feeding young men these toxic false narratives with a tactical and sinister purpose in mind.
Bates did her damn homework in this one and left no stones unturned. I loved how she made clear connections between gender issues and issues on race and sexuality rather than ignoring the intersectionality of misogyny. It is so valuable to acknowledge that the struggles of different groups are inextricably tied together. “To recognize that complexity is not to diminish the horror of any one form of prejudice.”
She even looks at the issue through the problem of social media algorithms, legal language on terrorism, media coverage, and search engine optimization. In fact, the sheer ease by which she was able to call up numerous examples for every single point she makes implied to me the prolific nature of violence against women everyday (there was no cherry picking here).
Another confession is in order here- for a good part of the book, my mindset was: “Wow this is great information, but I am a woman, and I already care about gender equality. I can’t be the most productive audience…” As I read on, it really hit me that despite my status as a woman, despite my best intentions, I, and other women, am just as likely to inadvertently contribute to the very gender inequality that eventually becomes dangerous to us. “But not being a ‘misogynist’ doesn’t mean that you can’t sometimes behave in sexist ways” My subconscious reluctance to validate the feelings and vulnerability of male friends and family members as I might with their female counterparts is one example. Another would be the jaded and frustrated women hiding behind epithets like “men are trash” or “men don’t deserve rights.” These examples are ways I have personally contributed to a social environment that can foster misogyny by making equality a zero-sum game (the idea that women's’ rights will only come at the expense of men's’.) Misogyny, and it’s ugly cousin extreme misogyny are problems that I now lucidly realize takes all of us to solve with consciousness and laser-focus.
Additionally, I’m sure that even if you are a proponent of gender equality, you have come across the idea that there are tons of women out there willing to lie about rape and sexual assault. Maybe you even have a niggling thought that this is true. In this book, Bates picks this idea apart to trace it back to its roots. Where did it come from and why is it such a pervasive idea? She describes a conversation she had with a young man at an assembly she gave who asked how men are supposed to support #MeToo when there is “evidence” about false accusations. She says “And you want to ask him: ‘What evidence? Where did you get that idea? Where did it come from? How do you know?’ But it is just something he knows. It is an idea borne out of hate, slowly, slowly passed along a chain of communities and websites and interlocutors and commentators, until it morphs into a shadowy fear that isn’t easy to grasp or refute, but suffuses our public consciousness.”
I won’t beat around the bush. This book was very distressing. I had to keep reminding myself this was nonfiction and not some dystopian horror novel. Sporadically, Laura Bates would pop in with dry humor or a personal anecdote that really lubricated the heaviness.“Chaos, Peterson claims, is associated with the feminine. Thanks for that, Jordan” And at the end, we are presented with productive points of action we can take to tackle misogyny from the roots.
If I were to let myself loose to gush about every part of this book that had an impact on me, I would be blatantly plagiarizing the book in this Goodreads review. So I just want to say that despite this being less than fun to read, it is more than 100% worth your time no matter how you identify yourself.
I can't help but to include some of my favorite quotes from this book to highlight why this book has led to an individual paradigm shift:
If you’ve made it this far, I appreciate you. And once again I implore you to read this mind altering book.
I’m going to be honest- I picked this up because I was morbidly fascinated by incels. They are disgusting and pitiful, and I wanted to know more about these vitriolic men- fedoras, neckbeards, and all. If you are like me, I’ll tell you that you do get a very deep dive into incel spaces. However, after having read the book I am ashamed that I had such a surface level understanding of the problem. It is so easy to reduce this phenomenon to memes about misogynistic men like incels and dismissing them a group to be mocked and underestimated. But this book was so much more, and I am beyond grateful to have read it.
Men Who Hate Women is written in such a cogent way, you feel like you are being guided by the hand through a dark and daunting cave by a capable Indiana Jones-type. The author doesn’t bullshit you. We are beyond the point for bullshit with this problem. Rather, she explicitly breaks down misogynist strategies so that we may be aware when we see them. The book is broken down into chapters on the different facets of the “Manosphere”- the group of online anti-feminist communities. For example, “Men Who hate women” discusses incels and “Men Who Blame Women,” she takes a look at the Men’s Rights Activists. The way the book is organized worked to create a productive and accessible mind map of the Manosphere.
I would venture to say that most of us are aware of how ridiculous incel logic is and that misogyny is objectively bad. But I think most of us have no idea why and how these men have come to hate women with such fervor. And how do we protect the vulnerable young men who fall susceptible to this broken logic? Bates does the legwork to show exactly how it is that incels and other extremists have become this way in order to explore solutions. One big theme of the book is how the rigid gender stereotypes perpetuated by the Manosphere are the very ones that cause the most harm to the vulnerable men within it who face very real problems caused by mental illness and self-esteem problems. My biggest takeaway was how deliberate Manosphere campaigns are. I try to assume incompetence before malice and prior to reading this book I would’ve never guessed that these groups are spoon feeding young men these toxic false narratives with a tactical and sinister purpose in mind.
Bates did her damn homework in this one and left no stones unturned. I loved how she made clear connections between gender issues and issues on race and sexuality rather than ignoring the intersectionality of misogyny. It is so valuable to acknowledge that the struggles of different groups are inextricably tied together. “To recognize that complexity is not to diminish the horror of any one form of prejudice.”
She even looks at the issue through the problem of social media algorithms, legal language on terrorism, media coverage, and search engine optimization. In fact, the sheer ease by which she was able to call up numerous examples for every single point she makes implied to me the prolific nature of violence against women everyday (there was no cherry picking here).
Another confession is in order here- for a good part of the book, my mindset was: “Wow this is great information, but I am a woman, and I already care about gender equality. I can’t be the most productive audience…” As I read on, it really hit me that despite my status as a woman, despite my best intentions, I, and other women, am just as likely to inadvertently contribute to the very gender inequality that eventually becomes dangerous to us. “But not being a ‘misogynist’ doesn’t mean that you can’t sometimes behave in sexist ways” My subconscious reluctance to validate the feelings and vulnerability of male friends and family members as I might with their female counterparts is one example. Another would be the jaded and frustrated women hiding behind epithets like “men are trash” or “men don’t deserve rights.” These examples are ways I have personally contributed to a social environment that can foster misogyny by making equality a zero-sum game (the idea that women's’ rights will only come at the expense of men's’.) Misogyny, and it’s ugly cousin extreme misogyny are problems that I now lucidly realize takes all of us to solve with consciousness and laser-focus.
Additionally, I’m sure that even if you are a proponent of gender equality, you have come across the idea that there are tons of women out there willing to lie about rape and sexual assault. Maybe you even have a niggling thought that this is true. In this book, Bates picks this idea apart to trace it back to its roots. Where did it come from and why is it such a pervasive idea? She describes a conversation she had with a young man at an assembly she gave who asked how men are supposed to support #MeToo when there is “evidence” about false accusations. She says “And you want to ask him: ‘What evidence? Where did you get that idea? Where did it come from? How do you know?’ But it is just something he knows. It is an idea borne out of hate, slowly, slowly passed along a chain of communities and websites and interlocutors and commentators, until it morphs into a shadowy fear that isn’t easy to grasp or refute, but suffuses our public consciousness.”
I won’t beat around the bush. This book was very distressing. I had to keep reminding myself this was nonfiction and not some dystopian horror novel. Sporadically, Laura Bates would pop in with dry humor or a personal anecdote that really lubricated the heaviness.“Chaos, Peterson claims, is associated with the feminine. Thanks for that, Jordan” And at the end, we are presented with productive points of action we can take to tackle misogyny from the roots.
If I were to let myself loose to gush about every part of this book that had an impact on me, I would be blatantly plagiarizing the book in this Goodreads review. So I just want to say that despite this being less than fun to read, it is more than 100% worth your time no matter how you identify yourself.
I can't help but to include some of my favorite quotes from this book to highlight why this book has led to an individual paradigm shift:
“So they’re not going to say: ‘I’m really scared that, if I try to have sex with someone, they’ll say I raped them.’ They’re more likely to say: ‘Women lie about false rape.’ But essentially it’s the same conversation.”
"If we accept that online abuse is simply part and parcel of public space, we risk alienating an entire generation of young women from the very spaces they need to occupy to become full citizens of tomorrow"
"But it is too often assumed that the potential damage we highlight is only damage to women and children, when the truth is that the damage toxic masculinity causes to men and boys is also enormous. The problem, I am repeatedly told by boys, men and activists, is that, when we say ‘toxic masculinity’, people hear ‘toxic men’."
"If masculinity is the problem, it is men who must decide and drive new forms of manhood. The one thing everyone seems to agree on is that it is fairly fruitless for feminists to be seen to be telling boys the right way to be a man."
If you’ve made it this far, I appreciate you. And once again I implore you to read this mind altering book.
September 18, 2020
TW: I don't even know where I would begin with the TW for this book because it literally covers everything under misogyny, rape, murder, alt-right, racism, white terrorism.
This was a deeply unsettling but extremely important book; whilst the nature of the discussion wasn't surprising to me, the extent of the hatred and abuse that is online honestly did surprise me. I know that these communities exist but I honestly didn't realise the extent of which they do exist and the extent of their behaviour. Laura has definitely opened my eyes to that which is what she intended to do with this book; it has always baffled me how crime and abuse against women, specifically because they are women, was never taken seriously. You see it time and time again; that it was just a joke or "she overreacted" and Laura shares how the people in these communities slide their hatred and abuse under a guise of humour, to be able to get away with what they are saying.
Laura breaks her book down into different aspects of the "manosphere" and I can't decide which one horrified me more. Laura has clearly done her research for this book and I cannot even begin to imagine how hard some of that research must have been for her; to sit through and read the torrid nature of their comments day after day and still feel able to write this book is incredibly brave. I can already see some of the reviews of this book lambasting it for it's title and playing into exactly what Laura has described in her book. She is very clearly saying this is not about all men, it is about the men who hate women, and proudly so.
I would highly recommend reading this book and it is so important to open our eyes to the extent of which this kind of behaviour goes on online and tips over into real life. It will definitely be a difficult read at times because it's just horrifying to realise the extent that these comments are made; Laura talks about the amount of death and rape threats she receives on a daily basis and the amount of times she has had to move to protect herself, and so for her to be able to write this book the least we can do is pick it up and educate ourselves.
I think one thing that I really took from this book is the importance of challenging behaviour when you see it; I think we can likely all say a time where we've experienced some form of harassment or sexism and just let it pass by, and this book really enforced to me the importance of challenging this where you can in your own life; with family, friends, colleagues, and give people the tools to educate themselves. This book should be that tool. Incredible read and I can't wait to get my hands on a physical copy.
This was a deeply unsettling but extremely important book; whilst the nature of the discussion wasn't surprising to me, the extent of the hatred and abuse that is online honestly did surprise me. I know that these communities exist but I honestly didn't realise the extent of which they do exist and the extent of their behaviour. Laura has definitely opened my eyes to that which is what she intended to do with this book; it has always baffled me how crime and abuse against women, specifically because they are women, was never taken seriously. You see it time and time again; that it was just a joke or "she overreacted" and Laura shares how the people in these communities slide their hatred and abuse under a guise of humour, to be able to get away with what they are saying.
Laura breaks her book down into different aspects of the "manosphere" and I can't decide which one horrified me more. Laura has clearly done her research for this book and I cannot even begin to imagine how hard some of that research must have been for her; to sit through and read the torrid nature of their comments day after day and still feel able to write this book is incredibly brave. I can already see some of the reviews of this book lambasting it for it's title and playing into exactly what Laura has described in her book. She is very clearly saying this is not about all men, it is about the men who hate women, and proudly so.
I would highly recommend reading this book and it is so important to open our eyes to the extent of which this kind of behaviour goes on online and tips over into real life. It will definitely be a difficult read at times because it's just horrifying to realise the extent that these comments are made; Laura talks about the amount of death and rape threats she receives on a daily basis and the amount of times she has had to move to protect herself, and so for her to be able to write this book the least we can do is pick it up and educate ourselves.
I think one thing that I really took from this book is the importance of challenging behaviour when you see it; I think we can likely all say a time where we've experienced some form of harassment or sexism and just let it pass by, and this book really enforced to me the importance of challenging this where you can in your own life; with family, friends, colleagues, and give people the tools to educate themselves. This book should be that tool. Incredible read and I can't wait to get my hands on a physical copy.
July 24, 2024
4.5/5
Apie incelius ir teroristus, alfa patinus ir melagius, žudikus ir prievartautojus. O kartais tiesiog apie vyrus, kurie, pasijautę vieniši ar nelaimingi, nesunkiai gali nukrypti link tų prieš tai išvardintų. Viską paremdama statistika ir faktais, autorė su ironija ir humoru pasakoja apie dalykus, dėl kurių oda šiurpsta – net jei daugelis ir girdėti. Pavyzdžiui, kad inceliai yra nužudę jau virš 100 žmonių, kad jie jaunus vaikinus indoktrinuoja per internetą (ypač Youtube, Reddit, meme puslapius), kad visi sutartinai dalinasi netikra statistika apie „tikruosius prievartos skaičius“ ir „melagingus kaltinimus išprievartavus“, kad siekia per humorą įtvirtinti tam tikras idėjas ir „tiesas“ (pvz, kad teroristas Breivikas yra herojus). Visą tą šūdą, dėl kurio skleidimo dirba tūkstančiai vyrų, autorė paneigia ne iš šiknos traukta statistika: kad 96% teroristų (pagal FBI duomenis) yra vyrai, kad UK yra tik 0.0002% tikimybė, kad vyras bus apkaltintas seksualine prievarta, jei nėra kaltas, kad po Trumpo „grab em by the pussy“ 1 iš 6 apklaustų USA moterų sakė, jog jautėsi fiziškai nesaugios.
Autorė ne tik pasakoja, kaip atpažinti incelių ir kitų moterų nekentėjų naratyvą, bet ir duoda naudingų patarimų tėvams. Patarimų, kuriuos surinko keliaudama po mokyklas, bendraudama su jaunimu ir kalbėdama su jais apie seksizmą. Atkreipia dėmesį į tai, kokių kalbų neverta praleisti pro ausis ir ką priimti kaip labai didelę raudoną vėliavą. Ji nagrinėja tokius žymius seksistus kaip Trumpas ar Petersonas, analizuoja jų kalbas. Taip pat labai įdomiai ir reikalingai kalba apie vyriškumą, toksiško vyriškumo žalą visiems ir tai, kaip pasiekti, jog tie patys vyrai, kurie kenčia nuo psichikos sutrikimų, nebūtų tie, kurie statistiškai taip retai kreipiasi pagalbos ar ją priima, net jei suvokia, kad šioji jiems reikalinga. Ir nors vietomis knyga galėtų būti kur kas labiau koncentruota, vis tiek labai reikalingas skaitinys. O aš galvoju – ar ateis diena, kai neturėsiu įsiminti autorės beriamos statistikos, kad kalbėdama apie seksualinę prievartą ar lygias teises turėčiau kuo atsikirtinėti visiems „pati prisiprašė“ ar „nu aiškiai nori šlovės“ bei „tai ko nesakė anksčiau?“ tipo šūdam?
Apie incelius ir teroristus, alfa patinus ir melagius, žudikus ir prievartautojus. O kartais tiesiog apie vyrus, kurie, pasijautę vieniši ar nelaimingi, nesunkiai gali nukrypti link tų prieš tai išvardintų. Viską paremdama statistika ir faktais, autorė su ironija ir humoru pasakoja apie dalykus, dėl kurių oda šiurpsta – net jei daugelis ir girdėti. Pavyzdžiui, kad inceliai yra nužudę jau virš 100 žmonių, kad jie jaunus vaikinus indoktrinuoja per internetą (ypač Youtube, Reddit, meme puslapius), kad visi sutartinai dalinasi netikra statistika apie „tikruosius prievartos skaičius“ ir „melagingus kaltinimus išprievartavus“, kad siekia per humorą įtvirtinti tam tikras idėjas ir „tiesas“ (pvz, kad teroristas Breivikas yra herojus). Visą tą šūdą, dėl kurio skleidimo dirba tūkstančiai vyrų, autorė paneigia ne iš šiknos traukta statistika: kad 96% teroristų (pagal FBI duomenis) yra vyrai, kad UK yra tik 0.0002% tikimybė, kad vyras bus apkaltintas seksualine prievarta, jei nėra kaltas, kad po Trumpo „grab em by the pussy“ 1 iš 6 apklaustų USA moterų sakė, jog jautėsi fiziškai nesaugios.
Autorė ne tik pasakoja, kaip atpažinti incelių ir kitų moterų nekentėjų naratyvą, bet ir duoda naudingų patarimų tėvams. Patarimų, kuriuos surinko keliaudama po mokyklas, bendraudama su jaunimu ir kalbėdama su jais apie seksizmą. Atkreipia dėmesį į tai, kokių kalbų neverta praleisti pro ausis ir ką priimti kaip labai didelę raudoną vėliavą. Ji nagrinėja tokius žymius seksistus kaip Trumpas ar Petersonas, analizuoja jų kalbas. Taip pat labai įdomiai ir reikalingai kalba apie vyriškumą, toksiško vyriškumo žalą visiems ir tai, kaip pasiekti, jog tie patys vyrai, kurie kenčia nuo psichikos sutrikimų, nebūtų tie, kurie statistiškai taip retai kreipiasi pagalbos ar ją priima, net jei suvokia, kad šioji jiems reikalinga. Ir nors vietomis knyga galėtų būti kur kas labiau koncentruota, vis tiek labai reikalingas skaitinys. O aš galvoju – ar ateis diena, kai neturėsiu įsiminti autorės beriamos statistikos, kad kalbėdama apie seksualinę prievartą ar lygias teises turėčiau kuo atsikirtinėti visiems „pati prisiprašė“ ar „nu aiškiai nori šlovės“ bei „tai ko nesakė anksčiau?“ tipo šūdam?
September 16, 2020
Women's Suffrage, Pt. 1 (The Suffragettes)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_q66HFoFztk
The Suffragettes were domestic terrorists.
=================================
"We are, as a sex, infinitely superior to men"
--Elizabeth Cady Stanton (1848 - Founding Feminist)
"A woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle."
--Famous 70s Feminist quote
"Life in this society being, at best, an utter bore and no aspect of society being at all relevant to women, there remains to civic-minded, responsible, thrill-seeking females only to overthrow the government, eliminate the money system, institute complete automation, and destroy the male sex."
--Valerie Solanas ("SCUM Manifesto" (Society for Cutting Up Men). P. 1, 1967)
(Valerie Solanas was an American radical feminist and author best known for writing the SCUM Manifesto, which she self-published in 1967, and attempting to murder Andy Warhol in 1968. - Wikipedia)
"The proportion of men must be reduced to and maintained at approximately 10% of the human race."
--Sally Miller Gearhart
(Sally Miller Gearhart is an American teacher, feminist, science-fiction writer, and political activist.)
"You grow up with your father holding you down and covering your mouth so another man can make a horrible searing pain between your legs."
--Catharine MacKinnon
(Catharine Alice MacKinnon is an American radical feminist legal scholar. She is the Elizabeth A. Long Professor of Law at the University of Michigan Law School, where she has been tenured since 1990, and the James Barr Ames Visiting Professor of Law at Harvard Law School. --Wikipedia)
"If life is to survive on this planet, there must be a decontamination of the Earth. I think this will be accompanied by an evolutionary process that will result in a drastic reduction of the population of males."
--Mary Daly
(Mary Daly was an American radical feminist philosopher, academic, and theologian. Daly, who described herself as a "radical lesbian feminist", taught at the Jesuit-run Boston College for 33 years. - Wikipedia)
"The annihilation of a woman's personality, individuality, will, character, is prerequisite to male sexuality."
--Andrea Dworkin
"The institution of sexual intercourse is anti-feminist."
--Ti-Grace Atkinson
"Heterosexual intercourse is the pure, formalized expression of contempt for women's bodies."
--Andrea Dworkin
"All sex, even consensual sex between a married couple, is an act of violence perpetrated against a woman."
--Catharine MacKinnon
"One can know everything and still be unable to accept the fact that sex and murder are fused in the male consciousness, so that the one without the imminent possibly of the other is unthinkable and impossible."
--Andrea Dworkin
"I believe that women have a capacity for understanding and compassion which a man structurally does not have, does not have it because he cannot have it. He's just incapable of it."
-- Congresswoman Barbara Jordan
"The male - I have found - is a domestic animal which, if treated with firmness and kindness, can be trained to do most things."
--Jilly Cooper
"My feelings about men are the result of my experience. I have little sympathy for them. Like a Jew just released from Dachau, I watch the handsome young Nazi soldier fall writhing to the ground with a bullet in his stomach and I look briefly and walk on. I don’t even need to shrug. I simply don’t care. What he was, as a person, I mean, what his shames and yearnings were, simply don’t matter."
--Marilyn French
(Marilyn French was a radical feminist American author. - Wikipedia)
"Just as humans have a prior right to existence over dogs by virtue of being more highly evolved and having a superior consciousness, so women have a prior right to existence over men. The elimination of any male is, therefore, a righteous and good act, an act highly beneficial to women as well as an act of mercy."
--Valerie Solanas ("SCUM Manifesto". P.67, 1967)
(Valerie Solanas was an American radical feminist and author best known for writing the SCUM Manifesto, which she self-published in 1967, and attempting to murder Andy Warhol in 1968. - Wikipedia)
"All men are rapists and that's all they are."
--Marilyn French
"And if the professional rapist is to be separated from the average dominant heterosexual (male), it may be mainly a quantitative difference."
--Susan Griffin
"You grow up with your father holding you down and covering your mouth so another man can make a horrible searing pain between your legs."
--Catharine MacKinnon
"Under patriarchy, every woman's son is her potential betrayer and also the inevitable rapist or exploiter of another woman."
--Andrea Dworkin
"The nuclear family must be destroyed... Whatever its ultimate meaning, the break-up of families now is an objectively revolutionary process."
--Linda Gordon
"Women have their faults. Men have only 2: everything they say and everything they do."
--Famous 70s Feminist quote
"We can't destroy the inequities between men and women until we destroy marriage."
--Robin Morgan
But, yet, somehow, men who have learned the lesson the hard way that we are hated by women and we are not wanted, so we tip our hats and take our leave to go about our individual lives and to form a life for ourselves without women...SOME F$%^&*ING HOW...we men are WRONG for staying away from women who don't want us around.
WOMEN can be "strong and independent and don't need no man...and "women need a man like a fish needs a bicycle"... and that's all "WOOHOO!" and "You go girl!". But when a man says "Ok, bye." then there's a symphony of heavy breathing and snarling drooling rage and tuorettes levels of "INCEL!!!" and "VIRGIN!!!" hurled at us.
Take those Feminist quotes, reverse the genders, and then try to imagine the raging hellfires and damnation that would be leveled at men who said those things. And I'm talking about saying them in passing, never mind that these are PUBLISHED quotes in various magazines and famous Feminist books.
Are you even listening to yourselves?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_q66HFoFztk
The Suffragettes were domestic terrorists.
=================================
"We are, as a sex, infinitely superior to men"
--Elizabeth Cady Stanton (1848 - Founding Feminist)
"A woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle."
--Famous 70s Feminist quote
"Life in this society being, at best, an utter bore and no aspect of society being at all relevant to women, there remains to civic-minded, responsible, thrill-seeking females only to overthrow the government, eliminate the money system, institute complete automation, and destroy the male sex."
--Valerie Solanas ("SCUM Manifesto" (Society for Cutting Up Men). P. 1, 1967)
(Valerie Solanas was an American radical feminist and author best known for writing the SCUM Manifesto, which she self-published in 1967, and attempting to murder Andy Warhol in 1968. - Wikipedia)
"The proportion of men must be reduced to and maintained at approximately 10% of the human race."
--Sally Miller Gearhart
(Sally Miller Gearhart is an American teacher, feminist, science-fiction writer, and political activist.)
"You grow up with your father holding you down and covering your mouth so another man can make a horrible searing pain between your legs."
--Catharine MacKinnon
(Catharine Alice MacKinnon is an American radical feminist legal scholar. She is the Elizabeth A. Long Professor of Law at the University of Michigan Law School, where she has been tenured since 1990, and the James Barr Ames Visiting Professor of Law at Harvard Law School. --Wikipedia)
"If life is to survive on this planet, there must be a decontamination of the Earth. I think this will be accompanied by an evolutionary process that will result in a drastic reduction of the population of males."
--Mary Daly
(Mary Daly was an American radical feminist philosopher, academic, and theologian. Daly, who described herself as a "radical lesbian feminist", taught at the Jesuit-run Boston College for 33 years. - Wikipedia)
"The annihilation of a woman's personality, individuality, will, character, is prerequisite to male sexuality."
--Andrea Dworkin
"The institution of sexual intercourse is anti-feminist."
--Ti-Grace Atkinson
"Heterosexual intercourse is the pure, formalized expression of contempt for women's bodies."
--Andrea Dworkin
"All sex, even consensual sex between a married couple, is an act of violence perpetrated against a woman."
--Catharine MacKinnon
"One can know everything and still be unable to accept the fact that sex and murder are fused in the male consciousness, so that the one without the imminent possibly of the other is unthinkable and impossible."
--Andrea Dworkin
"I believe that women have a capacity for understanding and compassion which a man structurally does not have, does not have it because he cannot have it. He's just incapable of it."
-- Congresswoman Barbara Jordan
"The male - I have found - is a domestic animal which, if treated with firmness and kindness, can be trained to do most things."
--Jilly Cooper
"My feelings about men are the result of my experience. I have little sympathy for them. Like a Jew just released from Dachau, I watch the handsome young Nazi soldier fall writhing to the ground with a bullet in his stomach and I look briefly and walk on. I don’t even need to shrug. I simply don’t care. What he was, as a person, I mean, what his shames and yearnings were, simply don’t matter."
--Marilyn French
(Marilyn French was a radical feminist American author. - Wikipedia)
"Just as humans have a prior right to existence over dogs by virtue of being more highly evolved and having a superior consciousness, so women have a prior right to existence over men. The elimination of any male is, therefore, a righteous and good act, an act highly beneficial to women as well as an act of mercy."
--Valerie Solanas ("SCUM Manifesto". P.67, 1967)
(Valerie Solanas was an American radical feminist and author best known for writing the SCUM Manifesto, which she self-published in 1967, and attempting to murder Andy Warhol in 1968. - Wikipedia)
"All men are rapists and that's all they are."
--Marilyn French
"And if the professional rapist is to be separated from the average dominant heterosexual (male), it may be mainly a quantitative difference."
--Susan Griffin
"You grow up with your father holding you down and covering your mouth so another man can make a horrible searing pain between your legs."
--Catharine MacKinnon
"Under patriarchy, every woman's son is her potential betrayer and also the inevitable rapist or exploiter of another woman."
--Andrea Dworkin
"The nuclear family must be destroyed... Whatever its ultimate meaning, the break-up of families now is an objectively revolutionary process."
--Linda Gordon
"Women have their faults. Men have only 2: everything they say and everything they do."
--Famous 70s Feminist quote
"We can't destroy the inequities between men and women until we destroy marriage."
--Robin Morgan
But, yet, somehow, men who have learned the lesson the hard way that we are hated by women and we are not wanted, so we tip our hats and take our leave to go about our individual lives and to form a life for ourselves without women...SOME F$%^&*ING HOW...we men are WRONG for staying away from women who don't want us around.
WOMEN can be "strong and independent and don't need no man...and "women need a man like a fish needs a bicycle"... and that's all "WOOHOO!" and "You go girl!". But when a man says "Ok, bye." then there's a symphony of heavy breathing and snarling drooling rage and tuorettes levels of "INCEL!!!" and "VIRGIN!!!" hurled at us.
Take those Feminist quotes, reverse the genders, and then try to imagine the raging hellfires and damnation that would be leveled at men who said those things. And I'm talking about saying them in passing, never mind that these are PUBLISHED quotes in various magazines and famous Feminist books.
Are you even listening to yourselves?
April 6, 2025
Some interesting stuff including some fairly grim details of the horrendous abuse women in public life often receive. Shines a light on some of the darker corners of the internet. However, it often reads like a long Comment is Free article.
June 24, 2023
extremely well researched, insightful, and one of the first pieces of literature about the incel movement.
March 27, 2022
Horrendously disorganized writing with no structure, misleading titles, anecdotal evidence, and little cohesion. A shame, given the importance of the topic and the potential this book had to be great.
July 2, 2023
Let me just say right out the gate my issue with this book is that it's inaccurate. It presents everything that happened from around 2013 to 2020 as if it's all currently happening and no one is dealing with it which is so untrue I don't understand how there aren't more people bringing it up. This book is extremely fearmongery in a way that is damaging to women because it makes them feel unsafe. Shit like this scares women off the internet way more than shitty men do. I feel like the author is trying to build herself up as this brave soul who is the only one willing to do something about these things and it's bullshit. Laura Bates isn't a brave soul saying what no one else will, she's like 1o years late to the party pointing out issues that were dealt with years before this book was published.
Like why does she act like the media didn't do a good job of informing people that Elliot Rodgers was an incel? Yes, it did. I promise you, they talked about it nonstop. I was there. I remember. And she acts like the media ignores violence against women over and over and over and it's like…no. It doesn't. Do we exist on the same timeline? I agree with some of her points, but she is being intentionally misleading.
To demonstrate my point about how she misrepresents things I will quote wikipedia. Because she keeps talking about 2020 reddit as if it's 2015 reddit. Wikipedia:
I would like to point out that r/theredpill was quarantined in 2018, two years before this book was published. She mentions r/theredpill a lot. But she spends the whole book telling you what terrible places these subreddits are and how easy they are to access. She really tries to drill it into the reader that no one is doing anything about it. As you can see reddit was already taking action on all this YEARS before this book was published.
She often says things with no source at all or she makes vague statements about "a youtube video" or a "manosphere website." Or she'll make a point and back it up with a really old source. She spends a lot of time talking about the youtube algorithm pipeline issue that again, was already dealt with before the book was published. She actually talks about doing an "experiment" to see if she can get youtube to recommend alt-right content or whatever and then mentions videos from 2014-2015 so you know she did this in 2015 and not anywhere near the time the book was published. And she mentions events from 2018 and 2019 every once in a while so you know this book wasn't just written in 2015 and shoved in a closet until it was published.
I think I'm more frustrated than I would otherwise be because this book is better than other books like it. I feel like she was capable of doing better. All she needed to do was get the facts right and be completely honest about where we're at. This is not the kind of thing where you can fuck around with the truth or be lazy with fact checking because you're just adding to the feedback loop. This doesn't help anyone. You're further convincing men in "the manosphere" that feminists are liars who don't care about the truth and you're scaring the shit out of women who believe you know what you're talking about.
There's so much more that's wrong here, but I really don't feel like spending a bunch of time refuting all of it. Just know that it's really inaccurate and Laura Bates did not take care with the truth and fact check what she was saying or back it up with sources.
Like why does she act like the media didn't do a good job of informing people that Elliot Rodgers was an incel? Yes, it did. I promise you, they talked about it nonstop. I was there. I remember. And she acts like the media ignores violence against women over and over and over and it's like…no. It doesn't. Do we exist on the same timeline? I agree with some of her points, but she is being intentionally misleading.
To demonstrate my point about how she misrepresents things I will quote wikipedia. Because she keeps talking about 2020 reddit as if it's 2015 reddit. Wikipedia:
Reddit has been a popular gathering place for manosphere supporters, and several forums on the site are geared toward its ideas. However, in the late 2010s and 2020s Reddit began to take steps to discourage more extreme manosphere subreddits. Some were banned, such as /r/incels (banned in 2017), its successor /r/braincels (banned in 2018), and /r/MGTOW (banned in August 2021); other subreddits such as /r/TheRedPill have been "quarantined", meaning that a warning is displayed to users about the content of the subreddit and users must sign in before they're allowed to enter.
I would like to point out that r/theredpill was quarantined in 2018, two years before this book was published. She mentions r/theredpill a lot. But she spends the whole book telling you what terrible places these subreddits are and how easy they are to access. She really tries to drill it into the reader that no one is doing anything about it. As you can see reddit was already taking action on all this YEARS before this book was published.
She often says things with no source at all or she makes vague statements about "a youtube video" or a "manosphere website." Or she'll make a point and back it up with a really old source. She spends a lot of time talking about the youtube algorithm pipeline issue that again, was already dealt with before the book was published. She actually talks about doing an "experiment" to see if she can get youtube to recommend alt-right content or whatever and then mentions videos from 2014-2015 so you know she did this in 2015 and not anywhere near the time the book was published. And she mentions events from 2018 and 2019 every once in a while so you know this book wasn't just written in 2015 and shoved in a closet until it was published.
I think I'm more frustrated than I would otherwise be because this book is better than other books like it. I feel like she was capable of doing better. All she needed to do was get the facts right and be completely honest about where we're at. This is not the kind of thing where you can fuck around with the truth or be lazy with fact checking because you're just adding to the feedback loop. This doesn't help anyone. You're further convincing men in "the manosphere" that feminists are liars who don't care about the truth and you're scaring the shit out of women who believe you know what you're talking about.
There's so much more that's wrong here, but I really don't feel like spending a bunch of time refuting all of it. Just know that it's really inaccurate and Laura Bates did not take care with the truth and fact check what she was saying or back it up with sources.
September 24, 2023
4.5🌟
A nauseatingly informative deep-dive that has opened my eyes and permanently changed my understanding of so many interactions with men online.
It’s a book where once you see the horrors of these extremist communities, you can’t un-see it’s residue all over the place.
My only critique is that for a book that makes recurring mention of intersectionality, there’s a noticeable lack of attention or time given to the handling of LGBTQ+ issues within these communities. I think we could’ve gotten more.
I highly recommend this book to everyone but to also protect yourself while moving through it. I had to take numerous breaks while reading and was brought to tears out of sheer disgust and frustration constantly.
It’s a difficult yet necessary read.
CW: graphic and recurring descriptions of: rape, sexual violence, sexual harassment, misogyny, murder + mass murder, terrorism, violence, domestic violence, racism, homophobia, Islamophobia, xenophobia, nazism + antisemitism, white supremacy, alt-right extremism, stalking, bullying
A nauseatingly informative deep-dive that has opened my eyes and permanently changed my understanding of so many interactions with men online.
It’s a book where once you see the horrors of these extremist communities, you can’t un-see it’s residue all over the place.
My only critique is that for a book that makes recurring mention of intersectionality, there’s a noticeable lack of attention or time given to the handling of LGBTQ+ issues within these communities. I think we could’ve gotten more.
I highly recommend this book to everyone but to also protect yourself while moving through it. I had to take numerous breaks while reading and was brought to tears out of sheer disgust and frustration constantly.
It’s a difficult yet necessary read.
CW: graphic and recurring descriptions of: rape, sexual violence, sexual harassment, misogyny, murder + mass murder, terrorism, violence, domestic violence, racism, homophobia, Islamophobia, xenophobia, nazism + antisemitism, white supremacy, alt-right extremism, stalking, bullying
January 26, 2021
First and foremost it is worth praising Laura Bates for having the courage to write this book. Laura founded the Everday Sexism project and since then has been subject to thousands and thousands of violent, rape and death threats from the types of men with whom this book is concerned. She has had to move house several times and lives with a legitimate fear for the safety of herself and her family.
The book itself is an expertly put together piece of investigative journalism. It is harrowing, affecting and thoroughly researched. Bates primarily focuses on the online world of what she terms the “manosphere” which incorporates involuntary celibates (incels), pick up artists (PUAs), men’s rights activists (MRAs), men going their own way (MGTOWs) and straight up old fashioned misogynists, which of course all of the above are whatever their acronym of choice. This isn’t a tour of online communities though; there is a very “real-world” connection to changing attitudes in the English-speaking world among predominantly young men which has been a precursor to extreme physical and sexual violence against women and ultimately murder and acts of terrorism.
People may not see such things as terrorism initially but in the UK, the statutory definition of terrorism is contained in section one of the Terrorism Act 2000. It specifies that terrorism is the use or threat of action that is designed to influence the government or an international governmental organisation, or to intimidate the public or a section of the public, and is made for the purpose of advancing a political, religious or ideological cause. The action used or threatened must involve serious violence against a person, serious damage to property, endangering a person’s life, creating a serious risk to public health or safety, or the intention to interfere with, or seriously disrupt, an electronic system. This fits in wholly with the world the manosphere is trying to promote, whether that be the “redistribution of sex” preferred by incels or the decriminalisation of rape that PUAS advocate or the desire to itemise women as property, first of a father and then a husband that MRAs speak of. Whatever the goal, violence and intimidation are the prime forces behind the ideology and Bates gives us plenty of examples of acts of terror committed in the misogynist cause; yet only one of the criminals listed have been charged under terrorism powers, in Canada.
Indeed, it seems states are reluctant not only to invoke the powers they have, but to devote any attention in terms of criminological research to, when coupled with far-right ideology, is the fastest growing threat of terrorism anywhere in the world. States do not fund any projects of note into misogynistic terror, preferring instead that it gets caught up in other areas of investigation. Something overlooked by both police forces and the media is the extent to which misogyny drivers far right terror. While Anders Breivik and Brenton Tarrant were clearly driven to murder by their hatred of the left in one case and Muslims in the other, both were clear in their writings that they despised women and were deeply embedded in manosphere theory. If someone from a Muslim background kills three people in a spree it is instantly described as an act of terror but similar acts by a man who is clearly targeting women such as Elliot Rodger are described as “gunmen” or the pathetic aggrandising term “lone wolf”.
Behind the perpetrators of these terrorist acts are a plethora of internationally famous hate preachers; famous in terms of the community itself but there are others that have broken into mainstream debates such as Jordan Peterson and of course former president of the USA Donald Trump. Such people attempt to distance themselves from the extremes of the communities they endorse but their output is specifically referenced in the rambling manifestos of people committing the most heinous acts. A huge industry has built up around stirring hatred like this, and in terms of PUAs their idols tour countries giving talks to vulnerable young men for a lot of money teaching them how to lie their way into bed with a woman and at the most extreme fringe, how to get away with rape. Some such people have run for office in local, European and nation elections for recognised parties.
The most disturbing chapter for me was the penultimate one which explains the way boys and young men are being groomed by the far-right and their extreme misogyny through various social media platforms. We all know the connections Facebook has with troubling communities and much has been made of it in the press but Bates aims her ire clearly at YouTube which makes up the bulk of all mobile internet traffic and is the platform of choice for boys and for misogynist hate preachers. Bates tours schools herself and has noted a change in the way pupils ask questions and come out with statistics either wholly made up or manipulated which can only have come from viewing manosphere content online (men are more likely to suffer domestic violence than women, most claims of rape are false, etc. etc.). The way YouTube works in terms of its algorithm shows their business model is built on keeping people watching through the “recommended videos” section which, whatever you search for, takes the user down ever more extreme routes. For cooking you end up seeing extreme food challenges for instance, which is fine if a little gross. However when someone searches for “what is feminism” on a brand new Laptop with no previously gathered data on the user, within a few clicks on the “recommended” sidebar they are faced with an excess of troubling content; one is an interview with one time darling of the Alt-Right Milo Yiannopoulos (another who was courted by the mainstream press in both the US and UK) speaking unchallenged about modern feminism, which he describes as ‘primarily about man-hating… a very anger, bitter, profane, lesbianic sort of feminism’, spreading a ‘constant message that men are evil and broken and wrong’. He calls campus rape statistics ‘nonsense’ and says that figures cited by Barack Obama about sexual violence are ‘not true’. The video has over 2 million views. YouTube has chosen its profit margins over the safety of 50% of the public.
The final chapter suggests ways to move forward and challenge this, particularly among the young and if any government wants to start taking this seriously, as they should, then this book should form an important part of the bibliography of any policy proposal. The trend needs to be reversed among young men. In the British Attitudes Survey the general public are asked whether they think women are fully or partially to blame for being raped or sexually assaulted if they are drunk or have been ‘flirting heavily’ before the attack. And, every year, the results are deeply depressing. Not just because a quarter of the general public believe drunk victims are to blame, or because a third believe those who were flirting bear responsibility. But because, among 16–19-year-olds, those numbers jump dramatically. Over a third believe a drunk victim bears blame for their own rape or assault, and, for those flirting heavily, the number rises to almost half. Please read this book.
The book itself is an expertly put together piece of investigative journalism. It is harrowing, affecting and thoroughly researched. Bates primarily focuses on the online world of what she terms the “manosphere” which incorporates involuntary celibates (incels), pick up artists (PUAs), men’s rights activists (MRAs), men going their own way (MGTOWs) and straight up old fashioned misogynists, which of course all of the above are whatever their acronym of choice. This isn’t a tour of online communities though; there is a very “real-world” connection to changing attitudes in the English-speaking world among predominantly young men which has been a precursor to extreme physical and sexual violence against women and ultimately murder and acts of terrorism.
People may not see such things as terrorism initially but in the UK, the statutory definition of terrorism is contained in section one of the Terrorism Act 2000. It specifies that terrorism is the use or threat of action that is designed to influence the government or an international governmental organisation, or to intimidate the public or a section of the public, and is made for the purpose of advancing a political, religious or ideological cause. The action used or threatened must involve serious violence against a person, serious damage to property, endangering a person’s life, creating a serious risk to public health or safety, or the intention to interfere with, or seriously disrupt, an electronic system. This fits in wholly with the world the manosphere is trying to promote, whether that be the “redistribution of sex” preferred by incels or the decriminalisation of rape that PUAS advocate or the desire to itemise women as property, first of a father and then a husband that MRAs speak of. Whatever the goal, violence and intimidation are the prime forces behind the ideology and Bates gives us plenty of examples of acts of terror committed in the misogynist cause; yet only one of the criminals listed have been charged under terrorism powers, in Canada.
Indeed, it seems states are reluctant not only to invoke the powers they have, but to devote any attention in terms of criminological research to, when coupled with far-right ideology, is the fastest growing threat of terrorism anywhere in the world. States do not fund any projects of note into misogynistic terror, preferring instead that it gets caught up in other areas of investigation. Something overlooked by both police forces and the media is the extent to which misogyny drivers far right terror. While Anders Breivik and Brenton Tarrant were clearly driven to murder by their hatred of the left in one case and Muslims in the other, both were clear in their writings that they despised women and were deeply embedded in manosphere theory. If someone from a Muslim background kills three people in a spree it is instantly described as an act of terror but similar acts by a man who is clearly targeting women such as Elliot Rodger are described as “gunmen” or the pathetic aggrandising term “lone wolf”.
Behind the perpetrators of these terrorist acts are a plethora of internationally famous hate preachers; famous in terms of the community itself but there are others that have broken into mainstream debates such as Jordan Peterson and of course former president of the USA Donald Trump. Such people attempt to distance themselves from the extremes of the communities they endorse but their output is specifically referenced in the rambling manifestos of people committing the most heinous acts. A huge industry has built up around stirring hatred like this, and in terms of PUAs their idols tour countries giving talks to vulnerable young men for a lot of money teaching them how to lie their way into bed with a woman and at the most extreme fringe, how to get away with rape. Some such people have run for office in local, European and nation elections for recognised parties.
The most disturbing chapter for me was the penultimate one which explains the way boys and young men are being groomed by the far-right and their extreme misogyny through various social media platforms. We all know the connections Facebook has with troubling communities and much has been made of it in the press but Bates aims her ire clearly at YouTube which makes up the bulk of all mobile internet traffic and is the platform of choice for boys and for misogynist hate preachers. Bates tours schools herself and has noted a change in the way pupils ask questions and come out with statistics either wholly made up or manipulated which can only have come from viewing manosphere content online (men are more likely to suffer domestic violence than women, most claims of rape are false, etc. etc.). The way YouTube works in terms of its algorithm shows their business model is built on keeping people watching through the “recommended videos” section which, whatever you search for, takes the user down ever more extreme routes. For cooking you end up seeing extreme food challenges for instance, which is fine if a little gross. However when someone searches for “what is feminism” on a brand new Laptop with no previously gathered data on the user, within a few clicks on the “recommended” sidebar they are faced with an excess of troubling content; one is an interview with one time darling of the Alt-Right Milo Yiannopoulos (another who was courted by the mainstream press in both the US and UK) speaking unchallenged about modern feminism, which he describes as ‘primarily about man-hating… a very anger, bitter, profane, lesbianic sort of feminism’, spreading a ‘constant message that men are evil and broken and wrong’. He calls campus rape statistics ‘nonsense’ and says that figures cited by Barack Obama about sexual violence are ‘not true’. The video has over 2 million views. YouTube has chosen its profit margins over the safety of 50% of the public.
The final chapter suggests ways to move forward and challenge this, particularly among the young and if any government wants to start taking this seriously, as they should, then this book should form an important part of the bibliography of any policy proposal. The trend needs to be reversed among young men. In the British Attitudes Survey the general public are asked whether they think women are fully or partially to blame for being raped or sexually assaulted if they are drunk or have been ‘flirting heavily’ before the attack. And, every year, the results are deeply depressing. Not just because a quarter of the general public believe drunk victims are to blame, or because a third believe those who were flirting bear responsibility. But because, among 16–19-year-olds, those numbers jump dramatically. Over a third believe a drunk victim bears blame for their own rape or assault, and, for those flirting heavily, the number rises to almost half. Please read this book.
January 9, 2021
I feel strongly feminist, but I still didn't love this book.
I like to analyze information myself and this book felt too biased and too angry to provide me with real value. It felt like the author does only seek out information to support her views. I'd hoped it would be more impartial.
It's also aimed at people with not much knowledge of such issues. As someone who has been closely following gender issues for years, I found it too basic.
I like to analyze information myself and this book felt too biased and too angry to provide me with real value. It felt like the author does only seek out information to support her views. I'd hoped it would be more impartial.
It's also aimed at people with not much knowledge of such issues. As someone who has been closely following gender issues for years, I found it too basic.
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