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The Subtle Body: The Story of Yoga in America

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In The Subtle Body, Stefanie Syman tells the surprising story of yoga's transformation from a centuries-old spiritual discipline to a multibillion-dollar American industry. Yoga's history in America is longer and richer than even its most devoted practitioners realize. It was present in Emerson's New England, and by the turn of the twentieth century it was fashionable among the leisure class. And yet when Americans first learned about yoga, what they learned was that it was a dangerous, alien practice that would corrupt body and soul. A century later, you can find yoga in gyms, malls, and even hospitals, and the arrival of a yoga studio in a neighborhood is a signal of cosmopolitanism. How did it happen? It did so, Stefanie Syman explains, through a succession of charismatic yoga teachers, who risked charges of charlatanism as they promoted yoga in America, and through generations of yoga students, who were deemed unbalanced or even insane for their efforts. The Subtle Body tells the stories of these people, including Henry David Thoreau, Pierre A. Bernard, Margaret Woodrow Wilson, Christopher Isherwood, Sally Kempton, and Indra Devi. From New England, the book moves to New York City and its new suburbs between the wars, to colonial India, to postwar Los Angeles, to Haight-Ashbury in its heyday, and back to New York City post-9/11. In vivid chapters, it takes in celebrities from Gloria Swanson and George Harrison to Christy Turlington and Madonna. And it offers a fresh view of American society, showing how a seemingly arcane and foreign practice is as deeply rooted here as baseball or ballet. This epic account of yoga's rise is absorbing and often inspiring—a major contribution to our understanding of our society.

399 pages, Kindle Edition

First published January 1, 2010

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Displaying 1 - 30 of 47 reviews
Profile Image for Katherine.
19 reviews1 follower
September 13, 2012
Made it through chapter three. The premise was interesting, and I can't say anything against the author's research or facts. It seems to me that she did her homework, and I certainly haven't read the (many) original sources she's referencing. But, given her impressive bio (a lit degree from Yale, several prestigious journalism gigs), you would think that the author could formulate an argument. Nope. This reads like a freshman comp paper, or maybe a series of rambling blog posts. She is making wild assumptions instead of arguments. A slightly more reasonable argument would be that Emerson and Thoreau's writing-- and their interest in Hindu spiritual texts-- paved the way for later yogic teaching in the US. Most realistic would be arguing that there was interest in Hindu writing before yoga became a trend, so yogic ideas wasn't all that new. That is what her original sources demonstrate, not that the transcendentalists were really yogis. Never mind that each writer gets his own mini-chapter, which easily could have been combined into one chapter (especially considering that the two knew each other, and shared many similar ideas).

To get into more of the nitty gritty-- did this author ever learn what a thesis is? How about a topic sentence? She jumps from one disjointed idea to another, within the same paragraph. She presents a bunch of facts that don't really seem connected, and never bothers to explain how they're related. Is there not a copy editor checking her organization?? People and places are introduced, abandoned, referenced obliquely, and then finally explained.

Finally, a smaller complaint: one sentence does not a paragraph make. One sentence is not a complete argument, especially when it is stuck in between two unrelated paragraphs. I was ranting about this to my fiance when he took the book out of my hand and told me not to bother reading bad books. There are too many other good books to read. Hear hear.
Profile Image for Ciara.
Author 3 books418 followers
December 9, 2010
well, if you have insomnia, here's your cure. this book kept putting me to sleep. it is so dry, & so tedious in its writing style, & so repetitive, & so dull...dear god. i admit, i am probably not the target audience. i do yoga every now & again, but am definitely not devoted to it in any way. i just do it sometimes because it helps my arthritis pain. i have no interest in the spiritual components, or arguing over whether or not there are inherent spiritual components, or bikram yoga, etc.

i thought this book was going to be a little more lively. i read a very positive review that claimed that it was funny & engaging, & i was imagining kind of a romp through the history of yoga in the united states & all the hijinks people got up to in their bizarre & unique interpretations. yeah, that totally did not happen. it started off with folks like thoreau & other new england mid-19th century intellectuals who became intrigued by "hindoo" spiritualism. &...this is about the time that i fell into an irreversible coma. oh my god, i know more about thoreau living on walden pond from reading the first two chapters of this book than i got from reading "walden" in high school. it wasn't exciting then & it's not exciting now.

the author has a really grating writing style. she somehow manages to write the most convoluted sentences, & then she piles them up into paragraphs. they are not grammatically incorrect...they just don't make a lot of sense. for example: "theos arrives at his teacher's house & was also greeted by a man he's often seen around town. this [...] man had [...] specifically come to meet him. then he was at [the teacher's] the next morning too [he who? the man or theos?], this time with a special yoga scripture in hand. [...] theos was new to the language & assumed [the teacher] would read it. when he went to open the book [he who? theos? the teacher? the man?], its owner [still unclear who the owner is] immediately grabbed it, insisting he couldn't let [the teacher] see it. theos chastised the poor fellow [the man? the teacher?], telling him he was 'just like the rest of the yogi racketeers in india'. [who? the man? is the man a yogi? the teacher, who is definitely a yogi?] [the teacher] told hi m [who?] his teachings [what teachings? what the hell is going on?] were 'tommy rot', suggested he go back to his cave [who?], & threw him out [who?]."

see what i mean? another example: "as part of the requirements for his doctorate, theos had to publish one hundred copies of his dissertation & file them with the philosophy department at columbia. [his girlfriend] covered his expenses, & in 1944 columbia university printed five hundred copies of [the dissertation as a book] &, surprisingly, sold out all four hundred extra copies."

huh? theos had to publish one hundred copies himself, & then the university published 500 copies on their academic press label...& sold "the extra four hundred"? what extra four hundred? there were six hundred copies made altogether. i don't understand. jared suggested that this means that columbia only printed 400 copies on top of what theos made himself, & then sold them all...which would mean the author used such an excess of detail in constructing this paragraph that she obfuscated a very basic point.

there's shit like that all over the book, so it takes about a million years to read it, & once you parse through the incomprehensible text, you're still stuck reading a book that is quite boring. it didn't really pick up until the end, with all the talf of cults & corrupt gurus, but even the author even managed to make that about as dull as dishwater.

unless you are OBSESSED with yoga, do yourself a favor & skip this book.
Profile Image for Leah.
52 reviews88 followers
September 24, 2011
This book is more about how a few famous white people got into yoga, and how Swamis schemed it into American culture. Certainly not 'THE' History of Yoga in America, Syman dedicates entire chapters to people such as Margaret Woodrow Wilson while entirely bypassing some very important figures.
Profile Image for Kumari de Silva.
535 reviews27 followers
June 16, 2017
Considering Stefanie Syman is a graduate of Yale, her writing is disappointing. Probably not as bad as a high schooler (as some reviewers complained) but not better than average. Her habit of writing one-sentence long paragraphs interspersed between normal length paragraphs reminds me of blog style writing, not appropriate in a full length non-fiction book. Her lack of clear thesis is also frustrating. For a book entitled "The Subtle Body" she does precious little to promote the title as her definition of "Yoga." As I wend through her chapters: Psychedelic Sages, Marshmallow Yoga etc., her point seems to be exploring as many different definitions of "Yoga" as possible. She stops short of picking one to get behind.

"The Subtle Body" contains a lot of information in need of a guiding thread. Perhaps a better description of the book would be: a history of Indian philosophy in America. I enjoyed the earlier part of the book more than the latter because the first 9 chapters attempt (albeit sometimes more successfully than others) to link the same characters. There is crossover - Claire Stuart for example worked for Perry Bernard, Theos Bernard, and eventually taught Christopher Isherwood. I only know this, however, by utilizing the index. Syman refers to Stuart merely as "Clara" (no last name) in the early chapter on P. Bernard. Connecting the dots in this book is more work for the reader than it should be. By the last four chapters there's almost no narrative string, just events, occasions and random observations.

I read this book on a recommendation from my yoga teacher. If you have an earnest interest in yoga and you are trying to get to the bottom of the question, "Is yoga a spiritual practice?" or "Is yoga a religion?" This book clearly explains the answer is "sometimes." I would also say the book reveals that even the best and truest teachers of the old way, the ancient philosophy, were a tad huckster. If the Bernards are the spiritual ancestors of modern day find-your-inner-child marshmallow yoga, at least we can say for the Bernards (both Pierre and Theos) that they were well versed in Vendanta. Most modern teachers, not so much.

I'm a little disappointed to see the astronomical price on Amazon for the out of print books these yoga teachers wrote because Syman suggests Theo's book is one of the best ever written for understanding yoga. I wish she had seen fit to include more on Georg Feuerstein, who in my opinion contributed more to modern yoga than per se the Beatles or Fred and Susan Smithline.
Profile Image for Bonita Braun.
217 reviews6 followers
December 26, 2014
I stayed up very late last night to finish this book and although I do regret being tired today I do not regret not having to pick this book up again.
I agree with reviewers who thought this read like a dissertation but the omission of dates for some events made it a poor dissertation. Events which were described with phrases similar to "during his stay" or "while he was there" made it impossible for me to integrate information into knowledge I already possessed. Jumping from one individual to another when relating events made it difficult to follow and I found myself having to check back in the text.

Now regarding content, I am disappointed in what I feel to be omissions in the history of Yoga in the U.S. For example, Kripalu which began in Philadelphia in the 1960's and has a thriving retreat in Stockbridge, Mass. today has done a good job of integrating the spiritual aspect of Yoga with the physical. Kripalu has the further distinction of reorganizing and actually strengthening its mission after the founder was charged with improprieties.
Also, why was Ram Dass given so much space? He himself has said that he is not a Yogi. I suppose this was to be able to include an entire chapter on psychedelics, which had more to do with Zen than Yoga.
What about the growth of therapeutic Yoga? Large investments have been made in hospitals and research centers to study the three limbs of; asana, pranayama and meditation to effect healing and pain management. But this was not mentioned at all. Yoga as alternative medicine is certainly a good example of Yoga being mainstreamed in America.

Finally, what was the central thesis? Was it just a survey of Yoga's "story" in America or was it an investigation into the spiritual aspect of Yoga as the title, "The Subtle Body" suggests?

Anyway, I finished it. I own and have read and reread numerous books on Yoga many of them excellent references, but this one will not remain in my library. It is going on the free book table at the senior center where all my "Oprah books" go.
Profile Image for Jessica M.
53 reviews
July 13, 2017
If you are looking for a book on the story of yoga in America, read 'The Science of Yoga' by William Broad. Symon's 'Subtle Body' is disjointed as she chooses to focus on nitty gritty details, and fails to deliver an overall history of yoga in the West. Where did the title come from? There is no detailing of the subtle body. I had to refer to the sleeve of the book to see what her history is, and was surprised to see that she graduated from Yale and has written for several publications. For anyone who is serious about their yoga practice and wants to learn more about yoga philosophy and history, skip over this book.
Profile Image for Brooke (B for Books).
818 reviews27 followers
March 5, 2024
This is a well researched account of the story of the spiritual practice of yoga in the west as it expanded In The 19th and 20th centuries. Big focus on swami Vivekananda with details about his life and letters that was a ton of intimate detail in his correspondences with followers as well as controversy following his death at a young age. It reads like a brilliant theses but could use a little more direction focus or organization in the focus—if it is to be the full story of the “subtle body” then there are key figures left out.
18 reviews
May 17, 2018
There's nothing close to a thesis or story here. Seems as if she did a ton of research, couldn't come up with any meaningful broader insights, and decided to write a book anyways. The book is just a chronological series of disjointed anecdotes and descriptions of characters who, for better or worse, shaped the public's perception of what yoga is all about.
Profile Image for Anne.
43 reviews
June 3, 2018
This was not the easiest book to read as others have noted. It does have a lot of information, almost too much. There are elements of text book to it and it does veer around a bit. This book might not be best for a first yoga book but belongs in the library of hard core yogis.
Profile Image for Katie Karnehm-Esh.
240 reviews6 followers
December 31, 2018
Often interesting subject matter, but frequently VERY choppy writing. A paragraph might be made up of one sentence, and several paragraphs might continue on this way. It is a useful history for anyone interested in how yoga progressed through America.
42 reviews
May 22, 2017
A nice, scholarly treatise on the development of modern day "Yoga" in the United States.

A must read for any teachers to trace the true lineage of what we in the western world call Yoga.

311 reviews
July 29, 2017
Interesting, but poorly organized and hard to follow. I made it to the end only because I'm attending a discussion that will draw on the book.
Profile Image for Amber Willems.
15 reviews1 follower
February 1, 2020
I liked that this covered some more “American Local” gurus that aren’t included in other yoga history I’ve learned. I would love to find a historical fiction about the women around Pierre Bernard!
Profile Image for Adam.
96 reviews5 followers
March 12, 2022
Short, knotted vignettes loosely disjointed without the deep exploratory dives that would breathe understanding and zen
Profile Image for Kathleen Lisson.
Author 7 books10 followers
July 4, 2023
Great book for those interested in yoga! It’s very eye opening to see how the practice of yoga follows other cultural phenomena in America.
Profile Image for Rick Shrader.
72 reviews4 followers
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May 6, 2016
This is a 2010 book by Syman, a literature graduate of Yale University. I first heard of the book when Albert Mohler wrote a review of it. Syman practiced yoga for fifteen years before writing this historical review. It is not a Christian book or even religious for that matter. Syman tells the story of yoga in America from the days of the Transcendentalists (especially Ralph Waldo Emerson and Henry David Thoreau) in the late 1800s, to the rise in Hollywood, the wild 60s, and today’s commercialized use of the ancient religious ritual. Since the author is not criticizing yoga per se, nor defending Christianity, she accomplishes her purpose of merely telling the story of the 150 years of yoga in America, an interesting and sometimes twisted story. But Syman has done her homework, as you would expect. Of the 390 pages, the text runs to 292, then the footnotes to 358, followed by 6 pages of bibliography, followed by the index.
The title “Subtle Body” is described a few times and is worth including the first description here.
“In Hatha Yoga, the subtle body describes a network of channels (nadis) and wheel-like vortices (chakras). These are invisible to the naked eye and even the microscope; the subtle body is distinct from the gross or physical body, though manipulating one necessarily affects the other.
The purpose of practicing Hatha Yoga, including the postures as well as internal cleansing practices and breathing exercises, is to raise Kundalini, a powerful energy, which is typically lodged in the bottom chakra at the base of your spine, to the crown of your head, the top chakra” (p. 5).
The story of yoga in America is one of gradual inculcation and infiltration. It first came to the east with the Transcendentalists, then to the west where it found a foothold in Los Angeles, especially Hollywood. It was slow-going until yoga could be repackaged as an exercise and then practiced by well-known people from Marilyn Monroe to the Beatles. A whole chapter is devoted to Margaret Woodrow Wilson, the daughter of the President, who made it acceptable to the elite political class as well. Yoga has always been part of the drug and sex culture. A few pictures are included in the middle, one of which is Maharishi Mahesh with the Beatles, and Swami Satchidananda, along with about twenty other swamis, giving the “invocation” at Woodstock which, of course, was nothing but sex and drugs. The story is brought to the last chapter, “The New Penitents,” by which Syman means the gullible Americans who practice yoga feverishly as a way to punish the body in exercising and diet. Of course, this also made yoga a very profitable industry in America. The only reference to Christianity is at the end (see my article) where she admits that Americans are “willing to ignore the discontinuities” between yoga and “Judeo-Christian notions of God and the afterlife” (p. 291).
Mohler, after answering criticisms for his review of this book wrote, “I have heard from a myriad of Christians who insist that their practice of yoga involves absolutely no meditation, no spiritual direction, no inward concentration, and no thought element. Well, if so, you are simply not practicing yoga. You may be twisting yourselves into pretzels or grasshoppers, but if there is no meditation or direction of consciousness, you are not practicing yoga, you are simply performing a physical exercise. Don’t call it yoga” (albertmohler.com, 10/07.2010).
I would add to Mohler’s conclusion, that by continuing to call exercise “yoga,” you are continuing to link your exercise to a false religion. “Yoga” is not just a name with no connotation. For millions of people in the world it connects your activity with their belief, something a Christian should not do.

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Profile Image for Andrew.
355 reviews5 followers
August 16, 2019
There is no single definition or text for either "yoga" or "Hinduism." There was a hodgepodge of texts that eventually arrived in the US in the early 19th century, starting with the Bhagavad-Gita. Emerson & the transcendentalists were admirers of orientalism, and Thoreau practiced devotion and meditation. (The author suggests that Thoreau was a yogi).

The first swami's arrived in the latter half of the nineteenth century, just as Americans began exploring (in masse) spiritualism and eastern religions. Blavatsky (founder of the Theosophical Society) claimed to have channeled a Hindu.

There are 6 or 7 different forms of yoga, only 1 is the physical system - hatha yoga with its asanas (poses).

In Tantric yoga, one either mentally or actually indulges in 5 earthly pleasures - wine, meat, fish, grain & intercourse.

At teh turn of the century, west coast union leaders formed the Japanese & Korean Exclusion League to "drive out cheap labor." In 1917, the US passed an anti-immigration bill designed to keep Asians (including Indians) out of the country, which reduced the number of yogis allowed to visit or stay in the country.

Later Woodrow Wilson's daughter devoted herself to Hinuism and traveled in India, and Californian celebrities - like Christopher Isherwood, Gloria Swanson and other actors took to the cause, often promoting the health aspects (rather than the spiritual aspects).

Modern Hatha yoga is based on Indian yoga, but also incorporates modern American ideas like calisthenics. Starting in the 40's, this became popularized by books and TV shows. In the 60's, the spiritual aspect was re-emphasized with its tie-in with psychedelics (Timothy Leary & others) and a yogi led a chant session at Woodstock.
95 reviews
November 19, 2010
Two recent books tackle the development of Yoga in the United States. Through an unlikely series of events Pierre Bernard (born Perry Baker in Iowa) became a master yogi, and through a series of contrivances shamelessly promoted himself around the country, most notably in San Francisco and New York. At the turn of the century, tantric yoga and other foreign practices were considered cultish and morally subversive; this is when the press dubbed Pierre “The Great Oom” (this image served as the model for countless “evil swami” characters in the movies and cartoons of the era). By the 1920’s his Clarkstown Country Club in Nyack, New York became a popular retreat for the rich and famous, where the Vanderbilts, the conductor Leopold Stokowski, and many others learned hatha yoga, attended Pierre’s philosophic lectures, and staged an annual circus (elephants and other creatures lived on the grounds year-round). Syman’s The Subtle Body is a more comprehensive look at the transformation of this South Indian spiritual practice, starting with Thoreau’s experiments at Walden Pond and the first Indian yogis in America. The mid-century rise in yoga’s popularity includes the work of Pierre’s nephew, Theos Bernard, and yoga in Hollywood. The psychedelic era saw the drug-induced return of spiritual yoga (including the likes of Timothy Leary and Ram Dass) then modern variants emerged, such as Iyengar and Bikram.
Profile Image for Kit.
58 reviews2 followers
May 9, 2012
Disappointing. Syman seems to be capable of good writing when she takes the pains with it, and she is a long-time student of hatha yoga, so this book promised to be interesting. However, much of the work seems like a rush-to-print publication. Certain chapters are very thin, and the research is casual to say the least. So far, it seems that she relies on mainly on secondary source material and cites a few of those with a frequency that suggests either haste or laziness. On top of this, her prejudices are intrusive. She apparently has an ax to grind with Swami Vivekananda, which would be fine, but she goes at it peevishly and dismisses one of the spiritual and philosophical giants of India. At times, I wonder if she has read any of his work other than his letters. The chapters on Vivekananda and Vedantism are filled scenes of questionable authority depicting Vivekananda as little better than a snake charmer of wealthy women. Others who are treated to her condescending and derisive tone are Ralph Waldo Emerson and Thoreau. Thoreau fares a bit better than Emerson, but again, I have to wonder if she has read either of them with any real sympathy or understanding. While they may have fit the Upanishads, Vedas, and other texts to their own ends, fools they were not. The chapter on Pierre Bernard is much more fleshed out, perhaps because this territory is less burned over than the Transcendentalists or Swami Vivekananda.
Profile Image for Michael Blackmore.
250 reviews9 followers
November 8, 2013
I wanted like this more, but between the pretty dull writing and the fact that I actually knew a lot of the material already - it just didn't jell for me.

It's an academic dissertation that reads like an academic dissertation. Admittedly, the topic is a bit broad and difficult to build into an effective narrative - because, despite the title, it's more the story of Indian philosophy and Hinduism on America mostly in how various Westerns have attempted to learn and re-package it for audiences here.

The bulk of the book focused on the early folks creating their own teachings ostensibly based on their studies/secret teachings received - and of course, the inevitable scandals that develop from such things - mostly focusing turn of the century to 1960s. It give short thrift to more contemporary shift to more asana based teachings (while ironically not touching upon the scandal found in circles there as well) - which I would have actually been more interested in.

Oh, well, worth a read if you're not familiar with the more dubious first waves of Hindu thought in the US but it would be a very laborious read if you do...
Profile Image for Angie Never.
33 reviews1 follower
July 12, 2010
This book included a lot of information that I don't think is available elsewhere, and that alone made it interesting and worth reading. Having said that, I wasn't too impressed with the writing style and the way the information was presented. I often felt that the author threw out a tidbit of interesting information without providing any detail at all, and then surrounded it by a bunch of less compelling facts. Stories that could have been told seemed to be sacrificed to present timelines. Most of the book read like, "In 1962, this happened. In 1963, this happened." Most paragraphs were only 1 sentence long, which struck me as a little weird. For a history of yoga book, I definitely preferred The Great Oom. It's focus was much more narrow, but overall it was a more compelling read.
10 reviews
January 12, 2011
This felt like an academic presentation of yoga's early introduction to the US. The chronological timeline in presentation was helpful. Additionally helpful were the "new" names in the US history of yoga that get overlooked in general discussions and certinaly not in mentioned in teacher training programs. While I completed it in a short time, I found myself skimming parts of it. This is unfortunate because it is quite clear the author gathered quite a bit of research material for her book. Ultimately it felt like a published thesis project with out any new insight or cohesive theme as presented by the author.
Profile Image for Colette.
103 reviews4 followers
October 14, 2012
I read this very fast. (Ten days for mom of two preschoolers = three days for regular folk) It was full of fascinating connections and revelations. (Yoga was basically planted in America by rich white women! That's not a new phenomena!) It is a cultural history of America with yoga as a mirror. I think it's a good read for the casual reader, and a riveting read for yoga geeks like me. She's able to look at yoga and its practitioners fairly objectively, I feel--you usually find her looking at both sides of a person's actions, but never cutting them much slack.

Engagingly written, intricately researched, RECOMMEND.
Profile Image for Emily.
497 reviews24 followers
April 15, 2012
I have to admit that I didn't finish this book. I got about 2/3 of the way through and decided that, while reasonably interesting, I had found what I wanted and didn't feel the need to invest the time to finish. It is a very dense cultural history, and I wonder if it was originally written as a dissertation. Those who want to know the history of how yoga came to America, and especially the religious culture that allowed it to grow, will enjoy the book. I found it quite fascinating at the beginning, but by the time the author got to the 70s, exploring the mix of yoga and psychedelic drugs, I had lost interest.
Profile Image for Nancy.
44 reviews17 followers
January 4, 2012
Fascinating and insightful. Great for yoga students wanting to understand where their practice came from and where to take it. Well researched, well written and with lots of great stories to keep you interested; provides a great cultural history too. To make it even better I'd have liked a picture timeline and coverage of more recent yoga stories including current top teachers and their pedigree.
1,351 reviews
January 28, 2012
Interesting but not totally satisfying. This book focused on the people and events that brought about the rise of yoga in America, which was an interesting story (involving some colorful characters!). But there were almost no definitions of yoga-related terms and historical references, and only brief mentions of the history of yoga in India, which at times made things confusing (e.g. why are these people arguing about this particular aspect of yoga tradition?).
Profile Image for Christine.
6 reviews1 follower
March 15, 2013
I admit I didn't know much about yoga. But I knew that what we call "yoga" here in the 21st century USA is not what began as an eastern religious practice. How did that come to be? Syman traces the history of yoga and explains the different types of yoga that have developed over the years. It was interesting at the beginning, but the middle felt like a slog. But I now know a lot mor about yoga - and eastern mysticism - than I did when I started.
451 reviews6 followers
January 8, 2017
Some of the reviewers have complained that this is a dry book, but I disagree. I've been interested in yoga for about 25 years, and have occasionally practiced it from books and DVDs. I found the subject of this book, the history of yoga in the USA, to be fascinating. I would recommend it to anyone who has a similar interest.

If this interests you, I would also recommend "The Great Oom: The Improbable Birth of Yoga in America" by Robert Love.
Profile Image for Kate.
14 reviews5 followers
December 24, 2010
The extreme detail and academic tone were a turn off at first... But after adjusting to it, the detail becomes one of the best parts - so many fascinating, interwoven threads and people. I want a copy for my yoga library! I would only recommend this to people pretty seriously interested in the subject matter, though.
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