What do you think?
Rate this book
And Still the Waters Run: The Betrayal of the Five Civilized Tribes
Debo's classic work tells the tragic story of the spoliation of the Choctaw, Chickasaw, Cherokee, Creek, and Seminole nations at the turn of the last century in what is now the state of Oklahoma. After their earlier forced removal from traditional lands in the southeastern states--culminating in the devastating 'trail of tears' march of the Cherokees--these five so-called Civilized Tribes held federal land grants in perpetuity, or "as long as the waters run, as long as the grass grows." Yet after passage of the Dawes Act in 1887, the land was purchased back from the tribes, whose members were then systematically swindled out of their private parcels.
The publication of Debo's book fundamentally changed the way historians viewed, and wrote about, American Indian history. Writers from Oliver LaFarge, who characterized it as "a work of art," to Vine Deloria, Jr., and Larry McMurtry acknowledge debts to Angie Debo. Fifty years after the book's publication, McMurtry praised Debo's work in the "New York Review of Books" "The reader," he wrote, "is pulled along by her strength of mind and power of sympathy."
Because the book's findings implicated prominent state politicians and supporters of the University of Oklahoma, the university press there was forced to reject the book in .... for fear of libel suits and backlash against the university. Nonetheless, the director of the University of Oklahoma Press at the time, Joseph Brandt, invited Debo to publish her book with Princeton University Press, where he became director in 1938.
The publication of Debo's book fundamentally changed the way historians viewed, and wrote about, American Indian history. Writers from Oliver LaFarge, who characterized it as "a work of art," to Vine Deloria, Jr., and Larry McMurtry acknowledge debts to Angie Debo. Fifty years after the book's publication, McMurtry praised Debo's work in the "New York Review of Books" "The reader," he wrote, "is pulled along by her strength of mind and power of sympathy."
Because the book's findings implicated prominent state politicians and supporters of the University of Oklahoma, the university press there was forced to reject the book in .... for fear of libel suits and backlash against the university. Nonetheless, the director of the University of Oklahoma Press at the time, Joseph Brandt, invited Debo to publish her book with Princeton University Press, where he became director in 1938.
Audiobook
First published January 1, 1940
98 people are currently reading
1194 people want to read
About the author
Angie Debo
42 books24 followersBorn in Beattie, Kansas, where her parents, Edward P. and Lina Cooper Debo, were homesteaders, Angle Debo liked to observe that her birth date coincided with the closing of the American frontier. She spent a lifetime examining the historical implications of that settlement for Native American Indians…
Debo was the author of numerous books and essays; salient works in addition to those listed in the text include her MA thesis, "The Historical Background of the American Policy of Isolation," Smith College Studies in History 9 (April-July 1924), pp. 71-165; The Five Civilized Tribes: Report on Social and Economic Conditions (1951); Geronimo: The Man, His Time, His Place (1976); and Oklahoma: A Guide to the Sooner State (1941), edited with John M. Oskison.
References
Fitzpatrick, E. (2004). DEBO, Angie Elbertha. Notable American Women, A Biographical Dictionary: Completing The Twentieth Century (Vol.5), 158.
Ratings & Reviews
Friends & Following
Create a free account to discover what your friends think of this book!
Community Reviews
Displaying 1 - 24 of 24 reviews
backburner
November 1, 2023November 1, 2023: put on backburner again, because of so many other books currently reading.
October 15, 2023: We restarted this as our last audio on our journey home. The new forward by Amanda Cobb-Greetham is fantastic and almost merits purchasing a current edition.
February 6, 2018: Sadly, I need to put this on the backburner for now. I so hoped to finish it, but too many other things I need to read.
Our pastor, two pastors ago, told me to read this. He was a history buff and knew I shared his love of reading and history. Then I saw a famous picture of Angie hanging in the Oklahoma State Capital, her writings lined up behind her.
Angie Debo wrote about Indian injustices despite being banned from publication and shunned as a troublemaker. In this article about her, we read, "This book (And Still the Waters Run) and her The Road to Disappearance: A History of the Creek Indians served as a basis for a landmark U.S. Supreme Court decision, Harjo vs. Kleppe, in which important land rights for the Creek nation were recognized."
This is not a sensational or "exciting" book like Killers of the Flower Moon: The Osage Murders and the Birth of the FBI, so even though it is older, concerns vastly more people, tells of a far greater tragedy, and is described as a 'classic and a major influence on writers of Native American history', very few people today will read it.
Still reading...
October 15, 2023: We restarted this as our last audio on our journey home. The new forward by Amanda Cobb-Greetham is fantastic and almost merits purchasing a current edition.
February 6, 2018: Sadly, I need to put this on the backburner for now. I so hoped to finish it, but too many other things I need to read.
Our pastor, two pastors ago, told me to read this. He was a history buff and knew I shared his love of reading and history. Then I saw a famous picture of Angie hanging in the Oklahoma State Capital, her writings lined up behind her.
Angie Debo wrote about Indian injustices despite being banned from publication and shunned as a troublemaker. In this article about her, we read, "This book (And Still the Waters Run) and her The Road to Disappearance: A History of the Creek Indians served as a basis for a landmark U.S. Supreme Court decision, Harjo vs. Kleppe, in which important land rights for the Creek nation were recognized."
This is not a sensational or "exciting" book like Killers of the Flower Moon: The Osage Murders and the Birth of the FBI, so even though it is older, concerns vastly more people, tells of a far greater tragedy, and is described as a 'classic and a major influence on writers of Native American history', very few people today will read it.
Still reading...
November 14, 2019
Pride of place within the historiography of Indian Territory and early Oklahoma probably belongs to Angie Debo, who in this 1940 book exposed how unscrupulous businessmen victimized the most prominent victims of Indian Removal, the Five Civilized Tribes. Between 1906 and 1908, Oklahoma statehood and the passage of federal and state land-allotment acts licensed white entrepreneurs to descend on the Cherokees, Chickasaws, Choctaws, Creeks, and Seminoles, and cheat them of their resources. The next two decades witnessed “an orgy of plunder and exploitation” (p. 91) in eastern Oklahoma. Private firms and individual speculators persuaded Native American heads-of-household or local judges to give them power of attorney over uneducated Indians' property. Courts made enterprising whites the guardians of newly-wealthy Indian minors. Real-estate offices hosted weddings (usually in name only) between female allottees and white grifters. Attorneys devised exploitative contracts that bought Indian communities' resources for a song. When all else failed, con men resorted to forgery, fraud, and even murder to obtain Oklahoma Indians' land, timber, and oil.
As with Indian Removal two generations earlier, this campaign of land-piracy occurred under the aegis of American law, and its magnitude nearly overwhelmed Oklahoma's judicial system. Tens of thousands of Indian-related civil cases clogged state courts into the 1920s, and county judges used their influence and issuance of guardianships to build personal political machines. They and state officials fought private businessmen in the 1930s for shares of the spoils, while the Native families they had despoiled struggled with famine and poverty in a land of natural plenty (p. 356). Debo's study has an old-fashioned feel to it, insofar as it presents Native Americans as passive victims of white greed and focuses on the plunderers. But her thorough research and pitiless explication of whites' greed and exploitation make her book a classic, and set a high standard for future histories of Indian-white relations in the Sooner State.
As with Indian Removal two generations earlier, this campaign of land-piracy occurred under the aegis of American law, and its magnitude nearly overwhelmed Oklahoma's judicial system. Tens of thousands of Indian-related civil cases clogged state courts into the 1920s, and county judges used their influence and issuance of guardianships to build personal political machines. They and state officials fought private businessmen in the 1930s for shares of the spoils, while the Native families they had despoiled struggled with famine and poverty in a land of natural plenty (p. 356). Debo's study has an old-fashioned feel to it, insofar as it presents Native Americans as passive victims of white greed and focuses on the plunderers. But her thorough research and pitiless explication of whites' greed and exploitation make her book a classic, and set a high standard for future histories of Indian-white relations in the Sooner State.
July 2, 2022
It is often hard to recommend older history books because of the dry styles and the paternalism, but they still fill in blanks. That is the situation here. So for the things that were filled in...
1. Many of the people claiming Cherokee blood in their past come from the time post-allotment time where not only was there a great deal of romantic pride in the vanished Indians, but also a great desire to cash in, sometimes encouraged by greedy lawyers recruiting and convincing people that they were connected.
2. I have frequently seen a quote from Dawes stating that the Indian needed to learn selfishness. More context is given here, with that selfishness being necessary for land development so you can see towns and skyscrapers.
I also could not help thinking that these land seizures happened in the key states that sent forth refugees from the Dust Bowl. That should be explored more... how much damage does the selfishness do?
And, while it is not new, there is still always that disgust in reading over all of the scams and graft and lies and kidnappings and murders that happen just to get their hands into that land. And even when some people were outraged by it, there were more people outraged if any attempts to fix that could potentially cut into their action.
1. Many of the people claiming Cherokee blood in their past come from the time post-allotment time where not only was there a great deal of romantic pride in the vanished Indians, but also a great desire to cash in, sometimes encouraged by greedy lawyers recruiting and convincing people that they were connected.
2. I have frequently seen a quote from Dawes stating that the Indian needed to learn selfishness. More context is given here, with that selfishness being necessary for land development so you can see towns and skyscrapers.
I also could not help thinking that these land seizures happened in the key states that sent forth refugees from the Dust Bowl. That should be explored more... how much damage does the selfishness do?
And, while it is not new, there is still always that disgust in reading over all of the scams and graft and lies and kidnappings and murders that happen just to get their hands into that land. And even when some people were outraged by it, there were more people outraged if any attempts to fix that could potentially cut into their action.
June 9, 2021
I had to keep reminding myself that this was published in 1940 whenever allusion to "the present" was made. I knew,in general,about the Dawes Act; this book spells out in painful detail the economic ramifications of that shift from communal to private property, from traditional tribal organization to "citizenship." At times I got tangled in real estate and financial jargon, but usually could follow the report of exploitation way beyond anything I'd read of before. Two most egregious actions were declaring a Native incompetent (without examination) so as to become their guardian and thus have access to their land and/or mineral rights, creating "expenses" for which to be reimbursed before giving money to the Native (if any). And kidnapping a teen before he reached majority, then at midnight on his birthday getting him to sign over a deed for less than the value of the property.
The rivalry between Federal and State governments over administering assets, over rule making, over supervising added to the exploitation. Gradually the government seemed to look at real situations instead of listening only to reports and to attempt redress; however,party politics, state Vs. federal rivalries, and other economic interests caused much watering down.
None of this is a surprise; there is just more detail than I knew before and a new awareness of how long the chaos reigned.
The rivalry between Federal and State governments over administering assets, over rule making, over supervising added to the exploitation. Gradually the government seemed to look at real situations instead of listening only to reports and to attempt redress; however,party politics, state Vs. federal rivalries, and other economic interests caused much watering down.
None of this is a surprise; there is just more detail than I knew before and a new awareness of how long the chaos reigned.
December 5, 2022
A horrible tragedy. I could barely get through it. It took such an emotional toll-I did discover a thread to a family mystery-an explanation for the family lore that my maternal grandfather had a “head right” but no Native American DNA.
January 25, 2024
This was a very informative book, but not the most captivating.
I particularly liked this work because the Osage are big discussion points right now because of the movie "Killers of the Flower Moon." The book does an ok job of discussing how this one incident was indicative of a much larger atrocity, yet it is easy for most to walk away from the movie/book thinking that these atrocities were rare occurrences enacted by individuals, rather than systemic issues of injustice practiced society wide. This work is great for getting a glimpse on a much larger scale, both by focusing on the 5 Tribes (with only a few references to the Osage), and by looking at large governmental actions and court proceedings. Between the 5 Tribes and the Osage - when you see all the horror inflicted on them - you can extrapolate that out to get a glimpse as to how huge the injustice against the indigenous peoples was.
I particularly liked this work because the Osage are big discussion points right now because of the movie "Killers of the Flower Moon." The book does an ok job of discussing how this one incident was indicative of a much larger atrocity, yet it is easy for most to walk away from the movie/book thinking that these atrocities were rare occurrences enacted by individuals, rather than systemic issues of injustice practiced society wide. This work is great for getting a glimpse on a much larger scale, both by focusing on the 5 Tribes (with only a few references to the Osage), and by looking at large governmental actions and court proceedings. Between the 5 Tribes and the Osage - when you see all the horror inflicted on them - you can extrapolate that out to get a glimpse as to how huge the injustice against the indigenous peoples was.
July 18, 2025
Very unsettling book of investigative history that exposes the systematic exploitation and betrayal of Native Americans in Oklahoma during the late 19th and early 20th centuries.
I’m left feeling angry.
The author meticulously documents how, after the forced relocation of the Five Civilized Tribes (Cherokee, Choctaw, Chickasaw, Creek, and Seminole) to Indian Territory (now Oklahoma), they were again defrauded—this time through legal manipulation, government corruption, and white greed.
The book focuses particularly on the period after the Dawes Act and Curtis Act, when land held collectively by tribes was divided into individual allotments. These allotments were supposed to protect Native families, but in reality, they became tools for dispossession. Debo details how Native Americans were declared “incompetent” by white guardians, swindled out of their land, and even murdered in some cases — all while federal and local governments turned a blind eye or were complicit.
This book was so controversial that the University of Oklahoma Press refused to publish it under pressure from Oklahoma political leaders. It was finally published in 1940.
The author, Debo, is amazing. It’s an indictment of the USs betrayal of its promises to Native peoples. Angie Debo wrote with the clarity of a scholar and the moral fire of a whistleblower- and without any help from historians or the academic community. She’s a feminist whistleblowing queen.
I’m left feeling angry.
The author meticulously documents how, after the forced relocation of the Five Civilized Tribes (Cherokee, Choctaw, Chickasaw, Creek, and Seminole) to Indian Territory (now Oklahoma), they were again defrauded—this time through legal manipulation, government corruption, and white greed.
The book focuses particularly on the period after the Dawes Act and Curtis Act, when land held collectively by tribes was divided into individual allotments. These allotments were supposed to protect Native families, but in reality, they became tools for dispossession. Debo details how Native Americans were declared “incompetent” by white guardians, swindled out of their land, and even murdered in some cases — all while federal and local governments turned a blind eye or were complicit.
This book was so controversial that the University of Oklahoma Press refused to publish it under pressure from Oklahoma political leaders. It was finally published in 1940.
The author, Debo, is amazing. It’s an indictment of the USs betrayal of its promises to Native peoples. Angie Debo wrote with the clarity of a scholar and the moral fire of a whistleblower- and without any help from historians or the academic community. She’s a feminist whistleblowing queen.
February 13, 2025
Great, overall super informative. Very glad I read the new intro, really think that sets a necessary tone for the book, framing Debo as someone who certainly did a lot of good by revealing the facts contained in this book, but may have approached things from a lens that isn’t quite right. I think this shines through in the amount that she still holds the metric of success for these tribes in how much they’re able to mimic white society and economy. I also feel like this balancing of weighing the good and bad in her approach, as written in the intro, would be totally accepted and welcome even by Debo herself, since she does the same thing on reflection of some of the main players in the story she is telling. She’s quick to praise the work done by some key administrators and legal advocates, and she’s not afraid to also say how bad they sucked in other ways. She can accept that there was good and bad in people, so I’m glad this type of evaluation was made in a positive way for the intro. But yeah I mean, most of the stuff found within is bad. Enlightening and important to know, just sad how each and every step of the way is something to undermine those people
October 25, 2023
While this book is a fantastic stepping stone into the subject of exploitation done by the American government onto Tribes, it also shows its age. Yes, I think it is totally rad that this was written by a woman in the 1940s. However, it was written by a white woman. A white woman who uses derogatory and racist language towards Indigenous peoples.
This book was well researched and is an incredible resource on laws, treaties, and quantitative data. However, it is obvious that Native people were not involved with writing this book. You must read between the lines here and remember that you must read Indigenous authors for their own culture and history, and to acutely learn the lingering trauma of their own people.
This book was well researched and is an incredible resource on laws, treaties, and quantitative data. However, it is obvious that Native people were not involved with writing this book. You must read between the lines here and remember that you must read Indigenous authors for their own culture and history, and to acutely learn the lingering trauma of their own people.
February 22, 2023
This is a reprint of the story of the loss of the land of the Choctaws, Chickasaws, Cherokees, Creeks, and Seminoles after their reservations were established. At the turn of the Twentieth Century the tribes owned the eastern half of Oklahoma. That land proved to be rich in farmland, forests, coal, and oil. There were greedy white men who systematically stripped them of their land within a generation working around the Federal government’s promise that it was theirs “as long as the rivers flow”. They then had to rely on the government hand outs.
September 1, 2023
The tragic history of the liquidation of the Five Civilized Tribes (Choctaw, Chickasaw, Cherokee, Creek, and Seminole) in Oklahoma in the early 20th Century. First published in 1940, the book is dry and scholarly, but it documents in impressive detail how the tribes were systematically exploited and robbed for decades.
I borrowed the book from the library, curious to see its take on the Osage murders in the 1920s (which is the subject of David Grann's bestselling book Killers of the Flower Moon), but unfortunately Debo's book barely mentions the Osage tribe.
I borrowed the book from the library, curious to see its take on the Osage murders in the 1920s (which is the subject of David Grann's bestselling book Killers of the Flower Moon), but unfortunately Debo's book barely mentions the Osage tribe.
February 12, 2023
The narrator of this audio book was very difficult to listen to. At times it was a struggle to pay attention. However, this topic is something that should be more widely read to educate people about the multiple atrocities our government committed agains our native peoples. Again and again, they were deceived and taken advantage of, forced to move or assimilate, and have their land swindled from them. I wanted to make sure to finish this to give the subject the respect it deserves.
February 13, 2025
This is such an important work it's hard for me to rate it lower than 5 stars. Before Killers of the Flower Moon, this book exposed the sinister truth of guardianship in Oklahoma. While true to it's time period, there is racist language included, and at times the numbers and statistics start to blur together. The advocacy done by Debo still has her in my eyes as one of the great Oklahoma historians.
Read
November 17, 2025Very academic. Good info, but very dry. Someone compared this to Killers of the Flower Moon and while they both cover atrocities that happened to Indigenous peoples in Oklahoma, that’s where the comparison ends for me. This is a broader scope of material but less story and more facts while Killers… is very much a story. If doing a research project, this would be a really good resource. I made it to 80% but found myself really struggling to stay engaged and finally decided to DNF
January 31, 2023
The original "Killers of the Flower Moon." This is an excellent explanation and description of the heartbreaking history of the relationship between the US government and the Native Americans that were forcibly moved to the middle of the country.
Want to read
June 13, 2021c 1940
August 31, 2021
Necessary but tedious history.
April 6, 2023
An in depth book on the break up of the 5 tripes of Eastern Oklahoma. Well researched, but with very dated writing and ideas about the Native American communities in the state.
October 6, 2023
History that is not taught in school. Written in 1940, so the language is a bit dry, and the topic is not an entertaining one, but it is important to learn more about the USA history.
May 21, 2024
Well researched and heart breaking.
November 26, 2024
Very dry at times, but I am embarrassed all over again by the Thievery of my government and the sleazy creeps who robbed the people who were known to be kind and honest! Ugh.
February 15, 2025
5 star information….2 star readability.
February 19, 2025
Deeply important and foundational. Excellent book about Oklahoma and Indian Country history.
September 17, 2010
I'm also reading Tulsa: From Creek Town to Oil Capital but that's not on here.
I had to return it to the library. I'll finish it later.
I had to return it to the library. I'll finish it later.
Displaying 1 - 24 of 24 reviews