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Interviews with Francis Bacon
Ever since its first publication, this book - with its subsequent revised and augmented editions - has been considered a classic of its kind, and that reputation has become worldwide. As a discussion of problems of making art today it has been widely influential not only among artists but among writers and musicians. It has also been seen as the most revealing portrait that exists of one of the most singular artistic personalities of our time. Bacon's obsessive thinking about how to remake the human form in pain finds unique expression in his encounters with the distinguished art writer David Sylvester over a period of twenty-five years. In these masterfully and creatively reconstructed interviews, Sylvester has provided unparalleled access to the thought, work, and life of one of the creative geniuses of our century. With Bacon's recent death, no other work will ever match this achievement.
208 pages, Paperback
First published March 24, 1975
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About the author
David Sylvester
148 books30 followersAnthony David Bernard Sylvester CBE, (21 September 1924; London – 19 June 2001; London) was a British art critic and curator. During a long career David Sylvester was influential in promoting modern art in Britain, in particular the work of Lucian Freud and Francis Bacon.
Born into a well connected north-London Jewish family, Sylvester had trouble as a student at University College School and was thrown out of the family home. He wrote for the paper Tribune and went to Paris in 1947 where he met Alberto Giacometti one of the strongest influences on him. Though writing for a range of publications as a critic including The Observer and New Statesman the main thrust of his writing that direct response to the artwork was most important remained constant. Sylvester is credited with coining the term kitchen sink originally to describe a strand of post-war British painting typified by John Bratby. Sylvester used the phrase negatively but it was widely applied to other art forms including literature and theatre. During the 1950s Sylvester worked with Henry Moore, Freud and Bacon but also supported Richard Hamilton and the other 'Young Turks' of British pop art. This led him to become a prominent media figure in the 1960s. During the 1960s and 70s Sylvester occupied a number of roles at the Arts Council of Great Britain serving on advisory panels and on the main panel. In 1969 he curated a Renoir exhibition at the Hayward Gallery for which he was assisted by a young Nicholas Serota.
Born into a well connected north-London Jewish family, Sylvester had trouble as a student at University College School and was thrown out of the family home. He wrote for the paper Tribune and went to Paris in 1947 where he met Alberto Giacometti one of the strongest influences on him. Though writing for a range of publications as a critic including The Observer and New Statesman the main thrust of his writing that direct response to the artwork was most important remained constant. Sylvester is credited with coining the term kitchen sink originally to describe a strand of post-war British painting typified by John Bratby. Sylvester used the phrase negatively but it was widely applied to other art forms including literature and theatre. During the 1950s Sylvester worked with Henry Moore, Freud and Bacon but also supported Richard Hamilton and the other 'Young Turks' of British pop art. This led him to become a prominent media figure in the 1960s. During the 1960s and 70s Sylvester occupied a number of roles at the Arts Council of Great Britain serving on advisory panels and on the main panel. In 1969 he curated a Renoir exhibition at the Hayward Gallery for which he was assisted by a young Nicholas Serota.
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Displaying 1 - 30 of 102 reviews
December 12, 2022
Wonderful interviews where Bacon speaks of his process as an artist, what he searches for, I think any creative person will be inspired by these talks.
March 22, 2016
This was listed as one of David Bowie's important books, so I thought I would check it out. If you are interested in the thought process of an artist like Francis Bacon, like I am, then it is very much worth reading. This is a collection of interviews, over a period of time, so it can seem repetitive but that didn't bother me.
I really like the art of Francis Bacon; and as an artist, I always enjoy reading about the thought processes of artists. So this went on my best reads pile. Enjoyable and informative. What Francis Bacon says about his art making process is almost more interesting than his actual art. 5 stars and best reads pile.
I really like the art of Francis Bacon; and as an artist, I always enjoy reading about the thought processes of artists. So this went on my best reads pile. Enjoyable and informative. What Francis Bacon says about his art making process is almost more interesting than his actual art. 5 stars and best reads pile.
October 31, 2018
فقط دو گفتگوی اول را خواندم؛ و غروب میخواهم مستندی را ببینم که امسال درباره‌ی بیکن ساخته شده.
در فرم فیلم مستند، راوی می‌خواهد حرفی بزند و بر این اساس مصاحبه‌ها را می‌چیند (و واضح است که مستند، واقع‌گراییِ تام نیست و «تدوین» یعنی انتخاب بخشی از واقعیت که به دیدگاه فیلمساز نزدیک است).
در مصاحبه اما، با روندی نسبتا بی‌نظم مواجهیم، از نظر فرانسیس بیکن در مورد فلان نقاشی دیگران یا خودش و عاداتش. این است که --کتاب-- بدرد کسانی می‌خورد که ذهن‌شان از پیش بر بیکن مسلط است.
با این حال دیدن نقاشی‌های جذاب، عجیب و مبهم بیکن روی ورق گلاسه دوست‌داشتنی خواهد بود.
در فرم فیلم مستند، راوی می‌خواهد حرفی بزند و بر این اساس مصاحبه‌ها را می‌چیند (و واضح است که مستند، واقع‌گراییِ تام نیست و «تدوین» یعنی انتخاب بخشی از واقعیت که به دیدگاه فیلمساز نزدیک است).
در مصاحبه اما، با روندی نسبتا بی‌نظم مواجهیم، از نظر فرانسیس بیکن در مورد فلان نقاشی دیگران یا خودش و عاداتش. این است که --کتاب-- بدرد کسانی می‌خورد که ذهن‌شان از پیش بر بیکن مسلط است.
با این حال دیدن نقاشی‌های جذاب، عجیب و مبهم بیکن روی ورق گلاسه دوست‌داشتنی خواهد بود.
January 5, 2023
گفتگویی ساده روان با ترجمه خوب از عمق ذهنی فرانسیس بیکن قطعا برای هر آرتیستی مهم است که در مورد بیکن بداند و بخواند
February 5, 2021
در ساختمان تصنعی و ساختگی است که واقعیت سوژه میتواند به دام بیافتد. تله روی سوژه می افتد و تنها واقعیت را باقی می‌گذارد. نقاش همیشه کار را با سوژه شروع می‌کند، مهم نیست که چقدر کم اهمیت و نیم بند باشد، ساختمانی مصنوعی را بنا می‌کند تا به وسیله‌ی آن بتواند واقعیت سوژه را به دام بیاندازد.
December 30, 2020
Francis Bacon (1909-1992) was one of the greatest painters of the 20th century. This book contains 8 different interviews which the art critic David Sylvester did with Bacon during the span of 25 years. I have long admired Bacons work, partly because its ability to be exact yet at the same time suggestive. His work manages to capture the raw and ruthless nature of the world we live in (which perhaps we tend to downplay in our everyday life). This philosophy of life (or perhaps perspective is a more appropriate word) pervades his work.
The interviews revolve around how to transform a something from a photo into something more 'irrational' yet more real. "So that you're not only remaking the look of the image, you're remaking all the areas of feeling if possible [...] Because one wants do this thing of just walking along the edge of the precipice" (p. 31) To heighten the emotional power of his paintings, Bacon used 'chance' (which a large portion of the interviews is spent discussing exactly the meaning of this term). "I want a very ordered image, but I want it to come about by chance" (p. 62). Bacon sometimes throws paint at his canvas to surprise himself but this process of using 'chance' is not chaotic. It is a game played by someone who has become so accustomed to the rules of it that he can play it partly unconsciously. The best work come out of this combination of consciously choosing the right chance occurrence.
These interviews gave me a deeper understanding of Bacons work and his attempts to evolve as an artist.
The interviews revolve around how to transform a something from a photo into something more 'irrational' yet more real. "So that you're not only remaking the look of the image, you're remaking all the areas of feeling if possible [...] Because one wants do this thing of just walking along the edge of the precipice" (p. 31) To heighten the emotional power of his paintings, Bacon used 'chance' (which a large portion of the interviews is spent discussing exactly the meaning of this term). "I want a very ordered image, but I want it to come about by chance" (p. 62). Bacon sometimes throws paint at his canvas to surprise himself but this process of using 'chance' is not chaotic. It is a game played by someone who has become so accustomed to the rules of it that he can play it partly unconsciously. The best work come out of this combination of consciously choosing the right chance occurrence.
These interviews gave me a deeper understanding of Bacons work and his attempts to evolve as an artist.
February 7, 2016
The first book on a list of David Bowie's 100 favourite reads (how far will I make it through? place bests now) and one seemingly designed to set the tone, to wit "I'm not messing around here people". These are some serious meditations on the nature and purpose of art, which may quickly winnow out people who, like me, went in (a) not fully understanding the meaning of terminology like "figurative", which very quickly come up a lot and (b) thinking that Francis Bacon's art, isn't it, kind of, well, just ugly?
But I persevered and I'm really glad I did. There's plenty of meaty stuff in here about why art *has* to be doing something very different in an age where photography exists. (All those dumbos who look at modern/conceptual art and claim that "a child could have done this" - when of course it's copying what's in front of you that pretty much any idiot can learn to do.) You can understand why musicians and practitioners of other types of art have been drawn to these musings, on the importance of going deep into the unconscious to find stuff that expresses reality better than slavishly literal descriptions of it, boring and empty no matter how much technical virtuosity may have been applied.
But the secondary joy of the book is that Bacon is just a really interesting character, who can be relied upon to entertain in the many passages where the conversation veers away from artistic process, discussing such things as his relationship to casinos, why, a man after my own heart, he likes his studio to be in as chaotic and messy a state as possible, why he votes for the Right not the Left, and why he'd rather go to Hell than oblivion in the afterlife (because he'd always feel sure he would find a way to escape, for the record). It seems plausible to me that if someone comes across as compelling and intelligent as a person, you should then give their art the benefit of the doubt and try to work out what they're trying to get across through that, even if it might not have seemed your thing to start with. I don't think it works in reverse, sadly - lots of very pretty things turn out to have been generated by morons and arseholes. But Bacon is neither and it was a privilege to be allowed a tour of his mind and his work.
But I persevered and I'm really glad I did. There's plenty of meaty stuff in here about why art *has* to be doing something very different in an age where photography exists. (All those dumbos who look at modern/conceptual art and claim that "a child could have done this" - when of course it's copying what's in front of you that pretty much any idiot can learn to do.) You can understand why musicians and practitioners of other types of art have been drawn to these musings, on the importance of going deep into the unconscious to find stuff that expresses reality better than slavishly literal descriptions of it, boring and empty no matter how much technical virtuosity may have been applied.
But the secondary joy of the book is that Bacon is just a really interesting character, who can be relied upon to entertain in the many passages where the conversation veers away from artistic process, discussing such things as his relationship to casinos, why, a man after my own heart, he likes his studio to be in as chaotic and messy a state as possible, why he votes for the Right not the Left, and why he'd rather go to Hell than oblivion in the afterlife (because he'd always feel sure he would find a way to escape, for the record). It seems plausible to me that if someone comes across as compelling and intelligent as a person, you should then give their art the benefit of the doubt and try to work out what they're trying to get across through that, even if it might not have seemed your thing to start with. I don't think it works in reverse, sadly - lots of very pretty things turn out to have been generated by morons and arseholes. But Bacon is neither and it was a privilege to be allowed a tour of his mind and his work.
September 19, 2017
Συνεντεύξεις για οσους έχουν πάθος με τον Μπέικον. Οι υπόλοιποι ας προσπεράσουν.
(είπαμε για παθιασμένους)
(είπαμε για παθιασμένους)
August 3, 2016
".. There is a possibility that you get through the accidental thing something much more profound than what you really wanted."
A fascinating look into Francis Bacon's process and passion for "fact" (i.e., reality) over a 25-year period. David Sylvester's pointed questions draw out Bacon's complexity, or as I see it, artistry: he is a man possessed by possibilities, intentionally disrupting his forms to achieve a Realness that goes beyond mere Likeness. He is instinctive, inventive--predictably intelligent--and his eloquent explanations recorded here will serve to inspire anyone intrigued by art, the artist, or the creative act itself.
A fascinating look into Francis Bacon's process and passion for "fact" (i.e., reality) over a 25-year period. David Sylvester's pointed questions draw out Bacon's complexity, or as I see it, artistry: he is a man possessed by possibilities, intentionally disrupting his forms to achieve a Realness that goes beyond mere Likeness. He is instinctive, inventive--predictably intelligent--and his eloquent explanations recorded here will serve to inspire anyone intrigued by art, the artist, or the creative act itself.
August 4, 2025
Hoewel er gesprekken zijn genoteerd die mij haast doen geloven dat ik Francis Bacon nu van binnen en buiten ken, is er ook een nog groter mysterie om zijn wezen heen opgeroepen.
Iets wat ik nog vaak ga herlezen.
Iets wat ik nog vaak ga herlezen.
November 27, 2021
A fascinating read from a fascinating mind!
Read
April 1, 2021The poetics of Francis Bacon? Applied to painting? I guess it is that, a bit. And I liked it quite a lot. Pulled out of my parents' bookshelves at random, because I had nothing to read myself (which was not the case). I only had seen one Bacon painting in real life, and hadn't nor have a particular inclination towards his art, I barely knew it, nor knew about Bacon. But as this book gave the suggestion of being a long talk about art/painting, I thought, how different can it be, a talk about painting versus a talk about literature - and I just thought there must be some things said that will apply to literature as well and I gave it a change. Not that I didn't want to read about painting, it is just that I didn't know if I would be interested, to read about it in such detail, rather than just go to a museum to have a look - which is not so simple nowadays, nor is it so simple in general, to just go and see whatever works you want, ignoring time, place, money.
At the same time I thought this would be extra interesting, to maybe make some kind of translation between a visual and written art. What can thinking/feeling about making paintings bring to the act of writing (&what do they have in common)? I'm not sure just yet, but it was nonetheless interesting to read about, for example, what Bacon wanted to achieve in his artworks, what he struggled with (idea (image) vs translation to the canvas) and more. How he didn't want to merely illustrate, but how he thought about how to not illustrate while making maybe something more real than illustration, which for the viewer may or might seem a distortion, but is it that really? The eerie look his paintings have, turned into technical exercise for me - I love that. It's also interesting how Bacon must be an inspiration to David Lynch which also gives a new dimension to that art - I think.
I severely missed colour in the edition I read so I got to know Bacon's paintings in black (and grey) and white first. Which leaves some room for expectation, which I'm not mad about. I have to say that this book really has done a good job in making me interested/fascinated in/by the paintings of Bacon.
At the same time I thought this would be extra interesting, to maybe make some kind of translation between a visual and written art. What can thinking/feeling about making paintings bring to the act of writing (&what do they have in common)? I'm not sure just yet, but it was nonetheless interesting to read about, for example, what Bacon wanted to achieve in his artworks, what he struggled with (idea (image) vs translation to the canvas) and more. How he didn't want to merely illustrate, but how he thought about how to not illustrate while making maybe something more real than illustration, which for the viewer may or might seem a distortion, but is it that really? The eerie look his paintings have, turned into technical exercise for me - I love that. It's also interesting how Bacon must be an inspiration to David Lynch which also gives a new dimension to that art - I think.
I severely missed colour in the edition I read so I got to know Bacon's paintings in black (and grey) and white first. Which leaves some room for expectation, which I'm not mad about. I have to say that this book really has done a good job in making me interested/fascinated in/by the paintings of Bacon.
April 18, 2019
I went into this one already an appreciator of Francis Bacon, so I guess you can take part of my opinion on this work with a grain of salt in that sense. But I really really loved this. And I came out of it an even bigger fan of his than I was before.
First of all, purely from an aesthetic point of view, this book is really just a beautiful release. The quality of the pages (slightly thick, a bit glossy) really lends to the experience of the many, many paintings that are littered throughout—and these are not just works done by Bacon. The wonderful thing is that you will not only get to look at most of his complete works in here (many times as he’s talking about the process of creating them in the interviews), but you’ll also get to see pieces, side by side, that inspired him. (This ranges from obscure photography, to poetry, to Monet, Van Gogh, Picasso.) This lends such a cool, personal aspect to the book; it feels like you’re sort of getting to sit down and have a drink with this guy, in his studio, as he walks you through his process & what made him want to do things in the ways he did.
I really liked how the interviews were compiled, and the many topics that come about in the course of the conversations. Bacon has a lot of very fascinating things to say, not only about his unique process, but about painting and about art in general. There are a lot of interesting, tangential sort of things that come up if you read through the whole book, and, I don’t know, I just thought it was a joy to get so much context on this guy’s frame of mind and his own personal history/beliefs/intentions/etc. I think that I’ll probably come back to this every so often, maybe with a whiskey in hand, and sit down and talk to Francis for awhile. I like the thought of that.
Finally, although I’m not a painter myself, I felt that there were countless, invaluable insights in here about creating any kind of art. And just the sort of stuff this guy created I find to be inspirational and even instructive in a way. I’ve heard people call his work “horror” and “dark” and even “ugly,” and I can understand that it can come off that way some of the time, but I honestly have always found his stuff to be tremendously interesting and beautiful and rich. And I think that if the average, critical person were to pick this book up, it might change how they think of the many remarkable images that this man created.
First of all, purely from an aesthetic point of view, this book is really just a beautiful release. The quality of the pages (slightly thick, a bit glossy) really lends to the experience of the many, many paintings that are littered throughout—and these are not just works done by Bacon. The wonderful thing is that you will not only get to look at most of his complete works in here (many times as he’s talking about the process of creating them in the interviews), but you’ll also get to see pieces, side by side, that inspired him. (This ranges from obscure photography, to poetry, to Monet, Van Gogh, Picasso.) This lends such a cool, personal aspect to the book; it feels like you’re sort of getting to sit down and have a drink with this guy, in his studio, as he walks you through his process & what made him want to do things in the ways he did.
I really liked how the interviews were compiled, and the many topics that come about in the course of the conversations. Bacon has a lot of very fascinating things to say, not only about his unique process, but about painting and about art in general. There are a lot of interesting, tangential sort of things that come up if you read through the whole book, and, I don’t know, I just thought it was a joy to get so much context on this guy’s frame of mind and his own personal history/beliefs/intentions/etc. I think that I’ll probably come back to this every so often, maybe with a whiskey in hand, and sit down and talk to Francis for awhile. I like the thought of that.
Finally, although I’m not a painter myself, I felt that there were countless, invaluable insights in here about creating any kind of art. And just the sort of stuff this guy created I find to be inspirational and even instructive in a way. I’ve heard people call his work “horror” and “dark” and even “ugly,” and I can understand that it can come off that way some of the time, but I honestly have always found his stuff to be tremendously interesting and beautiful and rich. And I think that if the average, critical person were to pick this book up, it might change how they think of the many remarkable images that this man created.
December 31, 2024
I don't really remember why I started reading about Francis Bacon. I think it was attached to a philosophy class on Nietzsche and the body. Bacon is an incredibly interesting artist, and getting at how and why he attempts to harness chance to expose the fragility of the body makes for an interesting read. The book itself has a good visual component, and the different plates illustrate what Bacon was attempting to get at. Some of his works are better than others, but I guess that is true of any artist.
April 10, 2020
A good book but I was hoping for some juicy interviews. Mostly David Sylvester asks him about his methods, materials, a lot of stuff that's specific to oil painting, not a lot of hot goss in here. It's nice that Francis Bacon didn't get his start until he was 35, nor did he ever get to school, and I liked the part where he describes painting a screaming mouth like Monet paints a sunset. You gotta really want to know about his process, I really wanted to know about his boyfriends.
February 7, 2025
Un dels millors llibres sobre art modern i creació que es pot llegir. No m’estranya que Deleuze n’hagués de fer un llibre, perquè certament Bacon és generós aquí i ens ofereix tota una panoràmica de la lluita de l’artista, a més a més de la seva visió personal sobre el procés artístic. Tot i l’evident artificialitat de les entrevistes —o gràcies a això, diria Bacon— s’entreveu tant el pintor com la pintura… veritablement prodigiosa col·lecció d’entrevistes.
October 10, 2023
Se merecería cinco estrellas solo por ser un libro con dibujitos pero juzgo el texto, dice muchas cosas interesantes con las que no sé si estoy de acuerdo. Siempre digo que el arte tiene que hablar por sí solo, que creo que es verdad pero eso no quita que gente hablando de lo que hace y explicándolo sea muy divertido de consumir.
Más allá de estar de acuerdo o no es un libro muy agradable de leer y mucho de lo que dice se puede extrapolar a cualquier práctica creativa (y como todo es creativo en cierta manera pues lo aplicas a lo que te apetezca como debe ser.) Aparte es muy interesante ir viendo cómo cambian cosas en su proceso y sus ideas según va pasando el tiempo.
algunas cosas para referencia personal:
-las historias demasiado elaboradas a veces son aburridas y distraen
-no hace falta justificar tu conexión personal/histórica con un tema para obsesionarte con él
-cosas que parece que deberían ser por motivos narrativos en realidad es por composición
-usa fotos de referencia como usarías un diccionario
-"time doesn't heal"
-"you can be optimistic and totally without hope/ one's basic nature is totally without hope, and yet one's nervous system is made out of optimistic stuff"
-intenta hacer "arte disciplinado" con métodos no disciplinados
-incinerar a la gente es aburrido porque la gente del futuro no se encuentra los cuerpos
-lo que hace a un artista mejor que otro es tener mejor sentido crítico, no directamente hacer mejor arte
-que la inspiración original (en ese caso un poema) no se note en el producto final, que sea un secreto
Más allá de estar de acuerdo o no es un libro muy agradable de leer y mucho de lo que dice se puede extrapolar a cualquier práctica creativa (y como todo es creativo en cierta manera pues lo aplicas a lo que te apetezca como debe ser.) Aparte es muy interesante ir viendo cómo cambian cosas en su proceso y sus ideas según va pasando el tiempo.
algunas cosas para referencia personal:
-las historias demasiado elaboradas a veces son aburridas y distraen
-no hace falta justificar tu conexión personal/histórica con un tema para obsesionarte con él
-cosas que parece que deberían ser por motivos narrativos en realidad es por composición
-usa fotos de referencia como usarías un diccionario
-"time doesn't heal"
-"you can be optimistic and totally without hope/ one's basic nature is totally without hope, and yet one's nervous system is made out of optimistic stuff"
-intenta hacer "arte disciplinado" con métodos no disciplinados
-incinerar a la gente es aburrido porque la gente del futuro no se encuentra los cuerpos
-lo que hace a un artista mejor que otro es tener mejor sentido crítico, no directamente hacer mejor arte
-que la inspiración original (en ese caso un poema) no se note en el producto final, que sea un secreto
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April 13, 2025‘I’ve done a lot of self-portraits, really because people have been dying around me like flies and I’ve had no one to paint but myself.’
March 9, 2019
Of course, what in a curious way one's always hoping to do is to paint the one picture which will annihilate all the other ones, to concentrate everything into one painting. But actually in the series one picture reflects on the other continuously and sometimes they're better in a series than they are separately because, unfortunately, I've never yet been able to make one image that sums up all the others. So one image against the other seems to be able to say the thing more.
A few weeks ago I watched the documentary film "Francis Bacon and the Brutality of Fact", then immediately sought out this book at my local library. It's a fascinating collection of interviews spanning decades, in chronological order, between two long-time friends, and (in the third enlarged edition) there are 146 high-quality illustrations. Bacon was an eloquent, darkly humorous, well-read painter, and his grim, surreal, singular work has long held attraction for me. I was lucky to see many of his paintings at the Hirshhorn Museum a few years ago, and I wonder why I didn't seek more information about him and his work then.
The living quality is what you have to get. In painting a portrait the problem is to find a technique by which you can give over all the pulsations of a person. It's why portrait painting is so fascinating and so difficult. Most people go to the most academic painters when they want to have their portraits made because for some reason they prefer a sort of colour photograph of themselves instead of thinking of having themselves really trapped and caught. The sitter is someone of flesh and blood and what has to be caught is their emanation.
Topics include: the nature of creativity; the balancing act between intention and accident; studio space and light; solitude; photography; poetry; Velasquez and Duchamp; Shakespeare; and what it means to be an artist. The interviews flow smoothly, and two pages of editorial notes detail when they took place and how David Sylvester stitched them together. Sylvester was a patient, philosophical, gifted listener and questioner, someone who pressed Bacon to clarify himself when necessary and summed up what he understood when he could:
It seems to me from all that you've been saying that in the end what matters most to you is not an immediacy in the work's reference to reality, but a tension between juxtaposed references to different realities and the tension between a reference to reality and the artificial structure by which it's made.
That's a bit to unpack in and of itself, but in the context of that particular conversation, it's crystal clear. It's tremendously rewarding to follow their course and then to land in a clearing like that.
This was one of David Bowie's 100 favorite books, and it's easy to see why: it's an invaluable source of deep thinking about human expression and connection. I'll certainly acquire my own copy someday, to return to it when I want to be refreshed.
The greatest art always returns you to the vulnerability of the human situation.
A few weeks ago I watched the documentary film "Francis Bacon and the Brutality of Fact", then immediately sought out this book at my local library. It's a fascinating collection of interviews spanning decades, in chronological order, between two long-time friends, and (in the third enlarged edition) there are 146 high-quality illustrations. Bacon was an eloquent, darkly humorous, well-read painter, and his grim, surreal, singular work has long held attraction for me. I was lucky to see many of his paintings at the Hirshhorn Museum a few years ago, and I wonder why I didn't seek more information about him and his work then.
The living quality is what you have to get. In painting a portrait the problem is to find a technique by which you can give over all the pulsations of a person. It's why portrait painting is so fascinating and so difficult. Most people go to the most academic painters when they want to have their portraits made because for some reason they prefer a sort of colour photograph of themselves instead of thinking of having themselves really trapped and caught. The sitter is someone of flesh and blood and what has to be caught is their emanation.
Topics include: the nature of creativity; the balancing act between intention and accident; studio space and light; solitude; photography; poetry; Velasquez and Duchamp; Shakespeare; and what it means to be an artist. The interviews flow smoothly, and two pages of editorial notes detail when they took place and how David Sylvester stitched them together. Sylvester was a patient, philosophical, gifted listener and questioner, someone who pressed Bacon to clarify himself when necessary and summed up what he understood when he could:
It seems to me from all that you've been saying that in the end what matters most to you is not an immediacy in the work's reference to reality, but a tension between juxtaposed references to different realities and the tension between a reference to reality and the artificial structure by which it's made.
That's a bit to unpack in and of itself, but in the context of that particular conversation, it's crystal clear. It's tremendously rewarding to follow their course and then to land in a clearing like that.
This was one of David Bowie's 100 favorite books, and it's easy to see why: it's an invaluable source of deep thinking about human expression and connection. I'll certainly acquire my own copy someday, to return to it when I want to be refreshed.
The greatest art always returns you to the vulnerability of the human situation.
June 28, 2021
Algunas notas sueltas:
Para Bacon la fotografía relevó a la pintura de la tarea de hacer un registro naturalista de las personas, y a partir de entonces la dimensión de juego que siempre tuvo se habría convertido en su principal aspecto. Por otra parte, cuando describe su proceso creativo el juego está anclado en algo muy parecido a la magia, concretamente a la evocación. Detrás de sus retratos hay un intento deliberado de lograr un grado de presencia del objeto muy superior al que permitiría cualquier técnica naturalista, venga de la fotografía o de la pintura, a la que llama con algo de desdén "ilustración".
"Isn't it that one wants a thing to be as factual as possible and at the same time as deeply suggestive or deeply unlocking of areas of sensation other than simple illustration of the object that you set out to do? Isn't that what all art is about?" (p.56)
Del otro lado pone a la abstracción, a la que considera "una cosa puramente estética". Para mantenerse entre las dos orillas considera necesario darle espacio al azar y conservar alguna referencia exterior.
No falta el cálculo en el diseño y el contenido de estas entrevistas. Pollock estaba de moda y diferenciarse del expresionismo abstracto era algo muy conveniente. Sylvester lo sabía muy bien y supo conducir a Bacon a una posición ventajosa. Pero en el camino desenterró algunas observaciones sustantivas. La brutalidad de los hechos, por ejemplo, es una cualidad que Bacon encuentra en Picasso (una de sus influencias más importantes) y que según él estaría ausente en Matisse (p. 184). La facticidad como resistencia. Lo que la relaciona con la realidad, ese concepto injustamente devaluado.
Por lo demás, Bacon es bastante parco al hablar de su vida. Se presenta a sí mismo como un "late starter in everything" y afirma que se sentía atraído sexualmente por su papá, pero nunca entra en detalles y su entrevistador no insiste.
Para Bacon la fotografía relevó a la pintura de la tarea de hacer un registro naturalista de las personas, y a partir de entonces la dimensión de juego que siempre tuvo se habría convertido en su principal aspecto. Por otra parte, cuando describe su proceso creativo el juego está anclado en algo muy parecido a la magia, concretamente a la evocación. Detrás de sus retratos hay un intento deliberado de lograr un grado de presencia del objeto muy superior al que permitiría cualquier técnica naturalista, venga de la fotografía o de la pintura, a la que llama con algo de desdén "ilustración".
"Isn't it that one wants a thing to be as factual as possible and at the same time as deeply suggestive or deeply unlocking of areas of sensation other than simple illustration of the object that you set out to do? Isn't that what all art is about?" (p.56)
Del otro lado pone a la abstracción, a la que considera "una cosa puramente estética". Para mantenerse entre las dos orillas considera necesario darle espacio al azar y conservar alguna referencia exterior.
No falta el cálculo en el diseño y el contenido de estas entrevistas. Pollock estaba de moda y diferenciarse del expresionismo abstracto era algo muy conveniente. Sylvester lo sabía muy bien y supo conducir a Bacon a una posición ventajosa. Pero en el camino desenterró algunas observaciones sustantivas. La brutalidad de los hechos, por ejemplo, es una cualidad que Bacon encuentra en Picasso (una de sus influencias más importantes) y que según él estaría ausente en Matisse (p. 184). La facticidad como resistencia. Lo que la relaciona con la realidad, ese concepto injustamente devaluado.
Por lo demás, Bacon es bastante parco al hablar de su vida. Se presenta a sí mismo como un "late starter in everything" y afirma que se sentía atraído sexualmente por su papá, pero nunca entra en detalles y su entrevistador no insiste.
December 26, 2009
I learned about this book from novelist Tom Spanbauer. I love reading artists talk about their creative process. Artist Francis Bacon speaks about being a receptive, he says, "I don't think I'm gifted. I just think I am receptive."
What is especially great about this book are the pictures of the art under discussion, and near the back a picture of his messy studio. He talks about his art coming out of chaos, that his drive to make order manifests in his art. He lived in one place that was too orderly and there he could not make art, he had to move. He has done many triptychs, which I enjoyed seeing since I've not seen his work in person. Also, the art of other artists he refers to are included in the book.
He talks about the injury he does to the subjects in his work. Hence the subtitle, The Brutality of Fact. He preferred to work from pictures rather than with live models.
I love when he says, "to record one's own feelings about certain situations as closely to one's own nervous system as one possibly can." In my study of hand-to-page for writing in Continuum movement this is what we talk about, the tip of the pen being the end of your nervous system.
He also discusses the idea that as soon as there is more than one character in a painting the observer is compelled to add narrative. He uses the Valery quote, “To give the sensation without the boredom of its conveyance. And the moment the story enters, the boredom comes upon you.”
What is especially great about this book are the pictures of the art under discussion, and near the back a picture of his messy studio. He talks about his art coming out of chaos, that his drive to make order manifests in his art. He lived in one place that was too orderly and there he could not make art, he had to move. He has done many triptychs, which I enjoyed seeing since I've not seen his work in person. Also, the art of other artists he refers to are included in the book.
He talks about the injury he does to the subjects in his work. Hence the subtitle, The Brutality of Fact. He preferred to work from pictures rather than with live models.
I love when he says, "to record one's own feelings about certain situations as closely to one's own nervous system as one possibly can." In my study of hand-to-page for writing in Continuum movement this is what we talk about, the tip of the pen being the end of your nervous system.
He also discusses the idea that as soon as there is more than one character in a painting the observer is compelled to add narrative. He uses the Valery quote, “To give the sensation without the boredom of its conveyance. And the moment the story enters, the boredom comes upon you.”
Read
May 6, 2015David Sylvester and assisting-editors have done a remarkable job of presenting the inner turmoil and intellect of Francis Bacon with candour and adequate reverence. In approaching this collection, I was quiet skeptical about the possibility of the content being overly edited to eschew the original intent and tenor; I'm am glad my skepticism has been proved wrong.
In a series of nine interviews over a timeframe of twenty-four years, Mr. Sylvester goads Mr. Bacon into shedding light on his creative process: from conception to execution. Collectively, the collected interviews are quiet insightful on various levels—in terms of the artist's work ethic, political, intellectual and internal bents— nonetheless, in spheres concerning the larger artistic landscape of Mr. Bacon's time is barely reflected upon. With Resources been finite, it is logical that choices had to be made with regards to themes presented, however excluding to present the artist's reflection on the broader state of art and his 'then' contemporaries robs the reader of understanding how Mr. Bacon felt about his place and role history of (post WWII) modernist painting.
A fantastic read.
In a series of nine interviews over a timeframe of twenty-four years, Mr. Sylvester goads Mr. Bacon into shedding light on his creative process: from conception to execution. Collectively, the collected interviews are quiet insightful on various levels—in terms of the artist's work ethic, political, intellectual and internal bents— nonetheless, in spheres concerning the larger artistic landscape of Mr. Bacon's time is barely reflected upon. With Resources been finite, it is logical that choices had to be made with regards to themes presented, however excluding to present the artist's reflection on the broader state of art and his 'then' contemporaries robs the reader of understanding how Mr. Bacon felt about his place and role history of (post WWII) modernist painting.
A fantastic read.
August 19, 2019
Francis Bacon is candid and vulnerable in his description of his work and life. It should be noted that Bacon and Sylvester are talking mostly art theory. This is not biographical. The images complement the text very well. I found myself already wanting to read it again again before I was halfway thru! Must have for any artist or those studying art history.
February 4, 2016
An immeasurable wealth of inspiration and comfort.
March 6, 2012
A must read for all modern painting fans
Read
October 24, 2022This guy is exactly what I was on track to becoming if I didn’t start going to therapy
July 20, 2024
This review is based on the late 1980s edition entitled The Brutality of Fact that's been scanned into The Open Library. I couldn't find that edition on Goodreads and I'm sick of looking for it.
No matter what cover your copy has, try to get one from 1987 onwards. That has more interviews and more artwork than the original 1975 edition, or the second edition.
Before there was YouTube, before VCRs, you could not watch television interviews over and over again. The best you could do was buy the transcript. Art critic and curator David Slyvester decided to pair transcripts of televised interviews with Francis Bacon (not to be confused with Sir Francis Bacon) with reproductions of Bacon's artwork and works that inspired FB. The transcripts were tidied up a bit and edited for clarity, although Sylvester states in the introduction to this edition that he somewhat regrets doing that.
Now, I admit that I had very low expectations for this book. The original title is incredibly boring. I finally broke down and read this book for two reasons:
1) This was on David Bowie's Top 100 Books list
2) I knew who Francis Bacon was. I'd seen the biopic starring Sir Derek Jacobi, which led me watching at least two documentaries on him. I lived in England from 2000 - 2005, where FB is a household name. At the time I thought they were talking about Sir Francis Bacon, so I lived up to the stereotype of dumb American.
If you have no idea who FB was, skip this book until you find out. Don't just look him up on Wikipedia. That gives nothing of the seismic impact he had on modern art. He was an incredibly polarizing artist, where people either loved his stuff or hated it. If you hate his art, this book won't change your mind.
I wouldn't want FB's stuff on my wall, but he sure wasn't boring.
Another thing about FB that you need to know before reading this book:
He was bug fucking nuts.
Now, let's finally get to the book and why I liked it so much. First off, it's about the most thorough look into the mind of an artistic genius who was also insane. Sylvester is able to prod and parry without pissing FB off. You get a peek into the way FB saw the world and even his own art. That doesn't sound like much on the surface, but it winds up being fascinating.
What FB doesn't do is give advice to other artists. That was refreshing. Artists have to find their own personal vision. Following slavishly in the footsteps of others ain't gonna do it.
My only quibble with the book is that all of the artwork is in black and white. However, black and white has its own special way. It can highlight form and composition better than color. In this day and age, it's easy to Google the paintings, furniture or photos of FB's studio, so don't let the black and white photos put you off the book.
No matter what cover your copy has, try to get one from 1987 onwards. That has more interviews and more artwork than the original 1975 edition, or the second edition.
Before there was YouTube, before VCRs, you could not watch television interviews over and over again. The best you could do was buy the transcript. Art critic and curator David Slyvester decided to pair transcripts of televised interviews with Francis Bacon (not to be confused with Sir Francis Bacon) with reproductions of Bacon's artwork and works that inspired FB. The transcripts were tidied up a bit and edited for clarity, although Sylvester states in the introduction to this edition that he somewhat regrets doing that.
Now, I admit that I had very low expectations for this book. The original title is incredibly boring. I finally broke down and read this book for two reasons:
1) This was on David Bowie's Top 100 Books list
2) I knew who Francis Bacon was. I'd seen the biopic starring Sir Derek Jacobi, which led me watching at least two documentaries on him. I lived in England from 2000 - 2005, where FB is a household name. At the time I thought they were talking about Sir Francis Bacon, so I lived up to the stereotype of dumb American.
If you have no idea who FB was, skip this book until you find out. Don't just look him up on Wikipedia. That gives nothing of the seismic impact he had on modern art. He was an incredibly polarizing artist, where people either loved his stuff or hated it. If you hate his art, this book won't change your mind.
I wouldn't want FB's stuff on my wall, but he sure wasn't boring.
Another thing about FB that you need to know before reading this book:
He was bug fucking nuts.
Now, let's finally get to the book and why I liked it so much. First off, it's about the most thorough look into the mind of an artistic genius who was also insane. Sylvester is able to prod and parry without pissing FB off. You get a peek into the way FB saw the world and even his own art. That doesn't sound like much on the surface, but it winds up being fascinating.
What FB doesn't do is give advice to other artists. That was refreshing. Artists have to find their own personal vision. Following slavishly in the footsteps of others ain't gonna do it.
My only quibble with the book is that all of the artwork is in black and white. However, black and white has its own special way. It can highlight form and composition better than color. In this day and age, it's easy to Google the paintings, furniture or photos of FB's studio, so don't let the black and white photos put you off the book.
May 8, 2024
Life is always shifting it never stays still or poses in a photogenic pose the best we can aim for is a blurred glimpse of life in its tangle of possibilities, juxtapositions and imperfections.
What I like about Francis Bacon is how truthful he is and honest. I believe it is an inherent trait in artists that lets them see the ugly distorted truth of the world along with its beauty. In fact, the juxtaposition of reality and the artificial mirror of reality is central to Bacon’s vision.
“I believe that realism has to be continuously reinvented. In one of his letters Van Gogh speaks of the need to make changes in reality, which become lies that are truer than the literal truth. This is the only possible way that a painter can bring back the intensity of the reality that he is trying to capture. I believe the reality of art is profoundly artificial and that it has to be recreated. Otherwise it will be an illustration of something—which will be very second-hand.”
These interviews are among the best I’ve read and on a par with Hitchcock/Truffaut. Francis talks candidly about his influences, his failings, his intentions for his work, how luck plays a part, his beliefs, his early family life, his sexuality and parental relationships. Nothing is off limits and it’s all in relation to specific works of his of which good photo reproductions have been included.
On the topic of love FB makes a poignant statement about the destruction wrought by the passing of a loved one and how foundational that grief is to laying down new obsessions and the need to create something. It’s about looking at the world and seeing what is not visible. It’s incorporating your psyche and past traumas and bringing to the surface something from the unconscious.
Which makes the act of creating art a very vein endeavour. But we know as consumers of art who have been moved by it and transformed of its power. When I write I feel unrestricted, free and everything is imaginable and possible and I want to capture what is true and real and essential. I want to draw out of my consciousness the something fundamental, those lessons learned through loss, trauma and suffering and endurance which tell of the spirit of man. It’s a daring to inspire others how you’ve been inspired.
As for the art he created I’m indifferent and merely interested in this book through a recommendation from an author and creative person I admire. In my opinion his art is excellent. Heavily influenced by Michelangelo and Muybridge. His art is well crafted and infused with the disturbing elements of its creators inner psyche, torments and unvarnished emotion. To look at some of his works you see an insatiable appetite and lustfulness which is quite predatory and morbidly preoccupied with the flesh.
What I like about Francis Bacon is how truthful he is and honest. I believe it is an inherent trait in artists that lets them see the ugly distorted truth of the world along with its beauty. In fact, the juxtaposition of reality and the artificial mirror of reality is central to Bacon’s vision.
“I believe that realism has to be continuously reinvented. In one of his letters Van Gogh speaks of the need to make changes in reality, which become lies that are truer than the literal truth. This is the only possible way that a painter can bring back the intensity of the reality that he is trying to capture. I believe the reality of art is profoundly artificial and that it has to be recreated. Otherwise it will be an illustration of something—which will be very second-hand.”
These interviews are among the best I’ve read and on a par with Hitchcock/Truffaut. Francis talks candidly about his influences, his failings, his intentions for his work, how luck plays a part, his beliefs, his early family life, his sexuality and parental relationships. Nothing is off limits and it’s all in relation to specific works of his of which good photo reproductions have been included.
On the topic of love FB makes a poignant statement about the destruction wrought by the passing of a loved one and how foundational that grief is to laying down new obsessions and the need to create something. It’s about looking at the world and seeing what is not visible. It’s incorporating your psyche and past traumas and bringing to the surface something from the unconscious.
Which makes the act of creating art a very vein endeavour. But we know as consumers of art who have been moved by it and transformed of its power. When I write I feel unrestricted, free and everything is imaginable and possible and I want to capture what is true and real and essential. I want to draw out of my consciousness the something fundamental, those lessons learned through loss, trauma and suffering and endurance which tell of the spirit of man. It’s a daring to inspire others how you’ve been inspired.
As for the art he created I’m indifferent and merely interested in this book through a recommendation from an author and creative person I admire. In my opinion his art is excellent. Heavily influenced by Michelangelo and Muybridge. His art is well crafted and infused with the disturbing elements of its creators inner psyche, torments and unvarnished emotion. To look at some of his works you see an insatiable appetite and lustfulness which is quite predatory and morbidly preoccupied with the flesh.
September 2, 2022
• دیوید سیلوستر یکی از اولین منتقدانی بود که متوجه شد بیکن هنرمند مهمی است و برای بیکن اهمیت بسیاری داشت چون در واقع مسئول تبلیغات بیکن بود. بیکن و سیلوستر با هم مانیفیستی از زندگی درونی فرانسیس به عنوان هنرمند تهیه کردند که بسیار تاثیرگزار بود.
• در این گفتگوها بیکن به مراتب از تاثیر تصادف و شانس در نقاشی هایش میگوید
بیکن :خب ما با تمام هنرها خیلی اشباع شده ایم، با تمام روش های دوباره سازی آنها. از دیدن آنها انقدر اشباع شده ایم که نقاشی فقط میتواند حسرت یک ایماژ جدید و راههای تازه ای که به وسیله آن بتواندواقعیت را خلق کند، بکشد. بعد از همه اینها انسان احتیاج به ابداع دارد. نمیخواهد همین طوری به بازسازی گذشته ادامه و ادامه دهد. منظورم این است که آن پایان هنر یونان بود، آن پایان هنر مصر، چون آنها خود را همین طور دوباره سازی کردند . ما نمیتوانیم همینطور به دوباره سازی هنر رنسانس قرن نوزدهم و یا چیز دیگر ادامه دهیم. چیز تازه ای میخواهیم . نه یک رئالیسم تصویرگرایانه .رئالیسمی میخواهیم که توسط ابداع واقعی روشی نوین واقعیت را درون چیزی کاملا دلبخواه و تصادفی قفل کند.
بیکن: آیا هر کسی این را نمیخواهد که یک چیز تا سر حد امکان مبتنی بر واقعیت باشد و در عین حال به جای اینکه تنها تصویرسازی ساده ای از مدل باشد، عمیقا فضاهای احساس را باز گشاید؟
آیا کل هنر در این باره نیست ؟؟؟
بیکن : شاید بتوانم بگویم من همیشه به زندگی در میان خشونت عادت داشته ام که این ممکن است بر کسی تاثیر بگذارد یا نگذارد اما به نظر من به احتمال زیادمیگذارد. اما این خشونت زندگی من ، یعنی خشونتی که در میان آن زندگی کرده ام با خشونت نقاشی متفاوت است
• و از عدم خط داستانی بین سه لته هایش میگوید :
بیکن: نمیخواهخم از گفتن داستان اجتناب کنم اما میخواهم خیلی خیلی زیاد آن چه را والری گفته انجام دهم دادن حس بدون کسالت انتقالش و لحظه ای که داستان وارد میشود ، کسالت هم مستولی میشود.
بیکن : شما نه تنها موضوع را نقاشی میکنید بلکه هم خودتان را نقاشی میکنید و هم ابژه ای را که تلاش دارید ثبتش کنید.
• بیکن فقط پرتره هایی را میکشید که خیلی خوب میشناختشان و بعد تصویر آنها را از عکسهایشان میکشید
بیکن: دلمشغولی من این است تا چه حد میتوانم به غیر منطقی ترین روش، پرتره را شبیه سوژه بکشم؟؟
کاری را که میخواهم بکنم این است که سوژه را فراسوی قیافه اش به هم بریزم اما بهم ریختگی را به سوی ثبت چهره بازگردانم
بیکن: وقتی از سر میز شما را نگاه میکنم فقط شما را نگاه نمیکنم، بلکه تمام انتشاراتی را که به شخصیت و تمام چیزهای دیگر شما مربوط میشود ، میبینم
وارد کردن آن به نقاشی که من دوست دارم در کشیدن پرتره به کار ببرم به این معنی است که این قضیه در رنگ ، خشن و تند ظاهر شود.
ما تقریبا همیشه میان حائل ها زندگی میکنیم. یک حفاظ ، یک هستی محفوظ. من گاهی فکر میکنم وقتی مردم میگویند من خشن به نظر میرسم ، شاید به این دلیل باشد که من هر از چند گاهی قادر بوده ام یک یا دوتا از این حائل ها را کنار بزنم.
• در این گفتگوها بیکن به مراتب از تاثیر تصادف و شانس در نقاشی هایش میگوید
بیکن :خب ما با تمام هنرها خیلی اشباع شده ایم، با تمام روش های دوباره سازی آنها. از دیدن آنها انقدر اشباع شده ایم که نقاشی فقط میتواند حسرت یک ایماژ جدید و راههای تازه ای که به وسیله آن بتواندواقعیت را خلق کند، بکشد. بعد از همه اینها انسان احتیاج به ابداع دارد. نمیخواهد همین طوری به بازسازی گذشته ادامه و ادامه دهد. منظورم این است که آن پایان هنر یونان بود، آن پایان هنر مصر، چون آنها خود را همین طور دوباره سازی کردند . ما نمیتوانیم همینطور به دوباره سازی هنر رنسانس قرن نوزدهم و یا چیز دیگر ادامه دهیم. چیز تازه ای میخواهیم . نه یک رئالیسم تصویرگرایانه .رئالیسمی میخواهیم که توسط ابداع واقعی روشی نوین واقعیت را درون چیزی کاملا دلبخواه و تصادفی قفل کند.
بیکن: آیا هر کسی این را نمیخواهد که یک چیز تا سر حد امکان مبتنی بر واقعیت باشد و در عین حال به جای اینکه تنها تصویرسازی ساده ای از مدل باشد، عمیقا فضاهای احساس را باز گشاید؟
آیا کل هنر در این باره نیست ؟؟؟
بیکن : شاید بتوانم بگویم من همیشه به زندگی در میان خشونت عادت داشته ام که این ممکن است بر کسی تاثیر بگذارد یا نگذارد اما به نظر من به احتمال زیادمیگذارد. اما این خشونت زندگی من ، یعنی خشونتی که در میان آن زندگی کرده ام با خشونت نقاشی متفاوت است
• و از عدم خط داستانی بین سه لته هایش میگوید :
بیکن: نمیخواهخم از گفتن داستان اجتناب کنم اما میخواهم خیلی خیلی زیاد آن چه را والری گفته انجام دهم دادن حس بدون کسالت انتقالش و لحظه ای که داستان وارد میشود ، کسالت هم مستولی میشود.
بیکن : شما نه تنها موضوع را نقاشی میکنید بلکه هم خودتان را نقاشی میکنید و هم ابژه ای را که تلاش دارید ثبتش کنید.
• بیکن فقط پرتره هایی را میکشید که خیلی خوب میشناختشان و بعد تصویر آنها را از عکسهایشان میکشید
بیکن: دلمشغولی من این است تا چه حد میتوانم به غیر منطقی ترین روش، پرتره را شبیه سوژه بکشم؟؟
کاری را که میخواهم بکنم این است که سوژه را فراسوی قیافه اش به هم بریزم اما بهم ریختگی را به سوی ثبت چهره بازگردانم
بیکن: وقتی از سر میز شما را نگاه میکنم فقط شما را نگاه نمیکنم، بلکه تمام انتشاراتی را که به شخصیت و تمام چیزهای دیگر شما مربوط میشود ، میبینم
وارد کردن آن به نقاشی که من دوست دارم در کشیدن پرتره به کار ببرم به این معنی است که این قضیه در رنگ ، خشن و تند ظاهر شود.
ما تقریبا همیشه میان حائل ها زندگی میکنیم. یک حفاظ ، یک هستی محفوظ. من گاهی فکر میکنم وقتی مردم میگویند من خشن به نظر میرسم ، شاید به این دلیل باشد که من هر از چند گاهی قادر بوده ام یک یا دوتا از این حائل ها را کنار بزنم.
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