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Is Hell Forever?
In September of 2013, Dr. Phil Fernandes debated Chris Date on the matter of Hell. Dr. Fernandes supported the Traditional View in which Hell is understood to be Eternal Conscious Torment. Chris Date argued in favor of Conditionalism (Also known as Conditional Immortality or Annihiliationism).
- GenresTheology
122 pages, Kindle Edition
First published September 5, 2013
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February 19, 2026
A SEPTEMBER 2013 DEBATE ON HELL AND CONDITIONALISM
Chris Date is a software engineer who hosts a podcast, and is a contributor to the ‘Rethinking Hell’ blog/podcast; Phil Fernandez is Pastor of Trinity Bible Fellowship, president of the Institute of Bible Defense, and teaches at Crosspoint Academy.
Chris Date begins, “I’ll be representing … annihilationism, more historically known as ‘conditional immortality’ or ‘conditionalism.’ … tonight’s debate proposition … [is] ‘The punishment of hell will be annihilation, the everlasting loss of life and conscious existence.’ I will be arguing that this statement is true… like many or most Christians prior to the 3rd century, I believe that when the unsaved rise from the dead, their bodies will remain every bit as mortal as they are now, and that they will instead be killed, dying a second, permanent death---annihilation… Not once tonight will I suggest that God is too loving or merciful to send people to hell forever, or that eternal torment in hell isn’t fair… Nor will I appeal to your emotions…” (Pg. 3-4)
He continues, “when it comes to Matthew 10:28, the word here translated ‘destroy’ consistently means something like ‘slay’ or ‘kill’… There’s just no reason to believe Jesus is using the word translated ‘destroy’ differently in Matthew 10:28, than it’s used in … many other verses in the synoptic gospels, particularly in light of his contrast between men who can kill only the body but can’t kill the soul, and God who can kill both in hell.” (Pg. 13)
He argues, “Jesus calls the fire that destroyed [Sodom and Gomorrah] ‘eternal fire,’ which Jesus said in Matthew 25:41-46 is the ‘eternal punishment’ awaiting the unsaved. An eternity of ongoing punishment is not what’s in view there; rather, it’s the punishment of … an eternal death from which they will never rise to life again… unlike the saved, they will not live forever.” (Pg. 14)
He states, “Unquenchable fire is not fire which never dies out; it’s fire which can’t be put out, and so irresistibly consumes and devours.. it will be unstoppable… when describing fire, ‘devour’ refers to completely burning up… in Matthew 3;12 … John the Baptist says Jesus will burn the chaff with unquenchable fire.” (Pg. 16)
He continues, “In Revelation 20:10, the devil, beast and false prophet are all tormented forever in a lake of fire and sulfur… and the unsaved are later thrown into it. But this is the same lake of fire into which death and Hades are also thrown after being emptied of their dead (Rev 20:13-14), and death and Hades can’t be tormented at all… The imagery symbolizes an end to death and Hades---in fact, it symbolizes an end to, or the destruction of, everything thrown into it. This is why both John and God Himself interpret the lake of fire imagery as symbolism representing ‘the second death’ of human beings thrown into it… The ‘second death’ is not another metaphor… The unsaved will die a second time… And so… the Bible consistently, repeatedly in no uncertain terms … says that as their punishment in hell, the unsaved will be destroyed, brought to a complete and irreversible end of life.” (Pg. 19)
Phil Fernandes notes, “The Church has taught for the past 2,000 years that hell is eternal conscious torment… Virtually all segments of traditional and contemporary Christianity have embraced this doctrine: Roman Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy, Mainline Protestantism, and Evangelicalism… Because the doctrine of hell as eternal conscious torment has been the teaching of the church for the past two thousand years, the burden of proof lies clearly with the newer breed of evangelicals who desire us to embrace annihilationism and reject the traditional view.” (Pg. 23)
He notes, “John tells us that those who receive the mark of the beast will ... be tormented with fire and brimstone, the smoke of their torment rises forever and ever, and they have no rest day or night (Rev 14:9-11)… if annihilation is true, then the lost will have rest forever---they will cease to exist. But, if the lost face eternal conscious torment, then there will be no rest for them throughout eternity. Revelation 20:10-15 inform us that Satan, the antichrist, and the false prophet will be tormented day and night forever and ever in the lake of fire and brimstone. In fact, according to this passage, everyone who is not saved will be thrown into this same lake of fire. They will share the same fate and the same eternal residence as Satan and his demons (Mt. 25:41)… outside the [holy] city, in the lake of fire and brimstone, reside the condemned… Hence, the Bible teaches that the lost will be eternally separated from fellowship with God. They face a destiny of eternal flames. They will have no rest day and night. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth in the eternal flames of hell… Annihilationism would never generate the scriptural metaphors used to describe hell.” (Pg 27-28)
Chris Date counters, “Dr. Fernandez argues … that ‘Justice demands that we deserve the ultimate punishment.’ This argument … [is] purely philosophical speculation. But even if it’s true… I can think of no worse punishment than missing out on eternal life with God… As for Jesus’ statement in Matthew 26 that it would have been better had Judas not been born, of course it would have been! To have lived a life of sin, betrayed the Messiah into the hands of this murderers, only to deeply regret and try to undo what he had done, to commit suicide, be raised from the dead, judged and suffer a violent execution and be remembered forever in shame and contempt the way we remember Hitler, certainly is worse than to have have been born.” (Pg. 40)
He points out, “traditionalists too often employ the fallacy of guilt by association, as Dr. Fernandes does when he argues that ‘Annihilationists have aligned themselves with … Jehovah’s Witnesses, Seventh-Day Adventism, and Open Theists.’ The reality is that more cultists and non-Christians believe in everlasting life in hell than embrace annihilationism. Mormons, Muslims, Oneness Pentecostals, snake-handlers… Churches of Christ who believe in Baptismal regeneration… these and many others believe in eternal torment in hell---including many Open Theists!” (Pg. 43)
Phil Fernandes responds, “The traditionalist believes that God only gives immortality to believers; the lost will be raised to suffer eternal conscious torment, but the Bible does not call this immortality---it calls it eternal contempt. The Bible teaches that the continuing existence of human souls is dependent on God; human souls are not eternal in their own power…” (Pg. 48)
He continues, “The traditionalist believes God chose to create all humans with endless existence. But, God does not call the endless existence of the lost ‘life.’ He calls it eternal death, eternal contempt, and eternal punishment. God’s Word speaks of hell as a place of weeping & gnashing of teeth, many lashes, eternal torment, no rest day and night, & eternal separation from God. Annihilationists confuse mere human conscious existence with life, but the two words, existence and life, are not synonymous. The church, for over a millennium, has never defined death as the cessation of conscious existence. The church has defined death as separation (i.e., the body from the soul and the soul from God), not annihilation.” (Pg. 48-49)
In his ‘Supplemental Notes’ section at the end of this book, Chris Date states, “The book of Revelation falls within the genre of ‘apocalyptic’ literature… Apocalyptic literature ‘comes through visions or dreams… that employ symbolic or figurative language used to describe a future divine intervention.’ (Holman Illustrated Bible Dictionary) It is ‘a highly stylized form of literature, with its own conventions fo symbolism and terminology… a literature of dreams and visions… never intended to depict the End in literal terms.’ (New Bible Dictionary) To interpret the book of Revelation believing John literally saw the future, as if he watched a recording of it on a DVD sent back through time, is to completely miss its point and utterly fail to exercise the care necessary to properly interpret it.” (Pg. 68)
This debate will be of great interest to Christians studying these issues.
Chris Date is a software engineer who hosts a podcast, and is a contributor to the ‘Rethinking Hell’ blog/podcast; Phil Fernandez is Pastor of Trinity Bible Fellowship, president of the Institute of Bible Defense, and teaches at Crosspoint Academy.
Chris Date begins, “I’ll be representing … annihilationism, more historically known as ‘conditional immortality’ or ‘conditionalism.’ … tonight’s debate proposition … [is] ‘The punishment of hell will be annihilation, the everlasting loss of life and conscious existence.’ I will be arguing that this statement is true… like many or most Christians prior to the 3rd century, I believe that when the unsaved rise from the dead, their bodies will remain every bit as mortal as they are now, and that they will instead be killed, dying a second, permanent death---annihilation… Not once tonight will I suggest that God is too loving or merciful to send people to hell forever, or that eternal torment in hell isn’t fair… Nor will I appeal to your emotions…” (Pg. 3-4)
He continues, “when it comes to Matthew 10:28, the word here translated ‘destroy’ consistently means something like ‘slay’ or ‘kill’… There’s just no reason to believe Jesus is using the word translated ‘destroy’ differently in Matthew 10:28, than it’s used in … many other verses in the synoptic gospels, particularly in light of his contrast between men who can kill only the body but can’t kill the soul, and God who can kill both in hell.” (Pg. 13)
He argues, “Jesus calls the fire that destroyed [Sodom and Gomorrah] ‘eternal fire,’ which Jesus said in Matthew 25:41-46 is the ‘eternal punishment’ awaiting the unsaved. An eternity of ongoing punishment is not what’s in view there; rather, it’s the punishment of … an eternal death from which they will never rise to life again… unlike the saved, they will not live forever.” (Pg. 14)
He states, “Unquenchable fire is not fire which never dies out; it’s fire which can’t be put out, and so irresistibly consumes and devours.. it will be unstoppable… when describing fire, ‘devour’ refers to completely burning up… in Matthew 3;12 … John the Baptist says Jesus will burn the chaff with unquenchable fire.” (Pg. 16)
He continues, “In Revelation 20:10, the devil, beast and false prophet are all tormented forever in a lake of fire and sulfur… and the unsaved are later thrown into it. But this is the same lake of fire into which death and Hades are also thrown after being emptied of their dead (Rev 20:13-14), and death and Hades can’t be tormented at all… The imagery symbolizes an end to death and Hades---in fact, it symbolizes an end to, or the destruction of, everything thrown into it. This is why both John and God Himself interpret the lake of fire imagery as symbolism representing ‘the second death’ of human beings thrown into it… The ‘second death’ is not another metaphor… The unsaved will die a second time… And so… the Bible consistently, repeatedly in no uncertain terms … says that as their punishment in hell, the unsaved will be destroyed, brought to a complete and irreversible end of life.” (Pg. 19)
Phil Fernandes notes, “The Church has taught for the past 2,000 years that hell is eternal conscious torment… Virtually all segments of traditional and contemporary Christianity have embraced this doctrine: Roman Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy, Mainline Protestantism, and Evangelicalism… Because the doctrine of hell as eternal conscious torment has been the teaching of the church for the past two thousand years, the burden of proof lies clearly with the newer breed of evangelicals who desire us to embrace annihilationism and reject the traditional view.” (Pg. 23)
He notes, “John tells us that those who receive the mark of the beast will ... be tormented with fire and brimstone, the smoke of their torment rises forever and ever, and they have no rest day or night (Rev 14:9-11)… if annihilation is true, then the lost will have rest forever---they will cease to exist. But, if the lost face eternal conscious torment, then there will be no rest for them throughout eternity. Revelation 20:10-15 inform us that Satan, the antichrist, and the false prophet will be tormented day and night forever and ever in the lake of fire and brimstone. In fact, according to this passage, everyone who is not saved will be thrown into this same lake of fire. They will share the same fate and the same eternal residence as Satan and his demons (Mt. 25:41)… outside the [holy] city, in the lake of fire and brimstone, reside the condemned… Hence, the Bible teaches that the lost will be eternally separated from fellowship with God. They face a destiny of eternal flames. They will have no rest day and night. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth in the eternal flames of hell… Annihilationism would never generate the scriptural metaphors used to describe hell.” (Pg 27-28)
Chris Date counters, “Dr. Fernandez argues … that ‘Justice demands that we deserve the ultimate punishment.’ This argument … [is] purely philosophical speculation. But even if it’s true… I can think of no worse punishment than missing out on eternal life with God… As for Jesus’ statement in Matthew 26 that it would have been better had Judas not been born, of course it would have been! To have lived a life of sin, betrayed the Messiah into the hands of this murderers, only to deeply regret and try to undo what he had done, to commit suicide, be raised from the dead, judged and suffer a violent execution and be remembered forever in shame and contempt the way we remember Hitler, certainly is worse than to have have been born.” (Pg. 40)
He points out, “traditionalists too often employ the fallacy of guilt by association, as Dr. Fernandes does when he argues that ‘Annihilationists have aligned themselves with … Jehovah’s Witnesses, Seventh-Day Adventism, and Open Theists.’ The reality is that more cultists and non-Christians believe in everlasting life in hell than embrace annihilationism. Mormons, Muslims, Oneness Pentecostals, snake-handlers… Churches of Christ who believe in Baptismal regeneration… these and many others believe in eternal torment in hell---including many Open Theists!” (Pg. 43)
Phil Fernandes responds, “The traditionalist believes that God only gives immortality to believers; the lost will be raised to suffer eternal conscious torment, but the Bible does not call this immortality---it calls it eternal contempt. The Bible teaches that the continuing existence of human souls is dependent on God; human souls are not eternal in their own power…” (Pg. 48)
He continues, “The traditionalist believes God chose to create all humans with endless existence. But, God does not call the endless existence of the lost ‘life.’ He calls it eternal death, eternal contempt, and eternal punishment. God’s Word speaks of hell as a place of weeping & gnashing of teeth, many lashes, eternal torment, no rest day and night, & eternal separation from God. Annihilationists confuse mere human conscious existence with life, but the two words, existence and life, are not synonymous. The church, for over a millennium, has never defined death as the cessation of conscious existence. The church has defined death as separation (i.e., the body from the soul and the soul from God), not annihilation.” (Pg. 48-49)
In his ‘Supplemental Notes’ section at the end of this book, Chris Date states, “The book of Revelation falls within the genre of ‘apocalyptic’ literature… Apocalyptic literature ‘comes through visions or dreams… that employ symbolic or figurative language used to describe a future divine intervention.’ (Holman Illustrated Bible Dictionary) It is ‘a highly stylized form of literature, with its own conventions fo symbolism and terminology… a literature of dreams and visions… never intended to depict the End in literal terms.’ (New Bible Dictionary) To interpret the book of Revelation believing John literally saw the future, as if he watched a recording of it on a DVD sent back through time, is to completely miss its point and utterly fail to exercise the care necessary to properly interpret it.” (Pg. 68)
This debate will be of great interest to Christians studying these issues.
December 27, 2025
Liked the presentation of this discussion of both points of view and it made for a concise summary of both positions. Not won over by the argument for conditionalism but feel it made for a great discussion.
Displaying 1 - 2 of 2 reviews