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Talking Smack: Honest Conversations About Drugs

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Honest, intimate conversations with some of Australia’s best musicians, including Paul Kelly, Gotye, Tina Arena, Phil Jamieson, Steve Kilbey, Mick Harvey and Holly Throsby.

Of all the creative industries, the most distinct link between drug use and creativity lies within music. The two elements seem to be intertwined, inseparable; that mythical phrase “sex, drugs and rock and roll” has been bandied about with a wink and a grin for decades. But is it all smoke and mirrors, or does that cliché ring true for some of our best-known performers?

In this fascinating book, journalist Andrew McMillen talks with Australian musicians about their thoughts on – and experiences with – illicit, prescription and legal drugs. Through a series of in-depth and intimate interviews, he tells the stories of those who have bitten into the forbidden fruit and avoided choking.

This isn’t to say that stories of ruin and redemption are avoided – they’re not. These celebrated performers have walked the straight-and-narrow path of alcohol, caffeine, nicotine and prescription medication, as well as the supposedly dark-and-crooked road of cannabis, cocaine, ecstasy, heroin and methamphetamine.

By having conversations about something that’s rarely discussed in public, and much less often dealt with honestly, McMillen explores the truths and realities of a contentious topic that isn’t going away.

Talking Smack is a timely, thought-provoking must-read that takes you inside the highs and lows of some of our most successful and creative musicians:

Paul Kelly
Wally de Backer (Gotye)
Steve Kilbey (The Church)
Phil Jamieson (Grinspoon)
Tina Arena
Spencer P. Jones (Beasts of Bourbon)
Mick Harvey (ex Nick Cave and the Bad Seeds)
Lindy Morrison (The Go-Betweens)
Ian Haug (Powderfinger)
Bertie Blackman
Tim Levinson (Urthboy)
Holly Throsby
Jon Toogood (Shihad)
Jake Stone (Bluejuice)

272 pages, Paperback

First published January 1, 2014

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About the author

Andrew McMillen

3 books34 followers
Andrew McMillen is an award-winning journalist and author based in Brisbane, Australia.

Since January 2018, he has worked as national music writer at The Australian newspaper. His most recent published work in that role can be found at https://www.theaustralian.com.au/auth...

While working as a freelance journalist from 2009 to 2017, Andrew's writing was published in The New York Times, The Weekend Australian Magazine, Rolling Stone, Good Weekend, The Saturday Paper, The Monthly, BuzzFeed and The Best Australian Science Writing 2016.

Andrew won the feature writing category at the Queensland Clarion Awards in 2017, and won the freelance journalism category at the Clarions from 2015–2017. He was also shortlisted for the Queensland Premier's Young Publishers and Writers Awards at the Queensland Literary Awards in 2015 and 2016.

Andrew’s first book, 'Talking Smack: Honest Conversations About Drugs', was published by UQP in 2014. 'Talking Smack' is a collection of stories featuring 14 prominent Australian musicians – including Paul Kelly, Gotye, Tina Arena, Holly Throsby and Steve Kilbey – who Andrew interviewed about their experiences with illicit, prescription and legal drugs. For more about 'Talking Smack', including extracts, reviews and press appearances, visit http://talkingsmack.com.au

Born in Bundaberg to two primary school teachers, Andrew moved to Brisbane in 2006 to study at the University of Queensland and has lived and worked in the city since. As a freelance journalist, Andrew has written about topics as diverse as ‘smart drugs’, suicide, outback police officers, hospital schools, illegal websites, videogame development, overseas romance tours, political satire, webcam hackers and becoming the subject of a Wikipedia article.

From 2015 to 2017, Andrew hosted Penmanship, a podcast about Australian writing culture that featured in-depth interviews with Australians who earn a living from working with words. Guests included Sarah Ferguson, Chris Masters, Tim Rogers, John Clarke, Trent Dalton and Anne Summers. http://penmanshippodcast.com

From 2014 to 2017, Andrew published an email newsletter, Dispatches, which offered an insight into his three passions: writing, reading and listening. It's now defunct, but you can view an archive of the newsletters at https://tinyletter.com/andrewmcmillen...

Andrew’s portfolio of published work can be found at http://andrewmcmillen.com

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Displaying 1 - 25 of 25 reviews
530 reviews30 followers
August 27, 2014
Drugs and musicians go together. At least, that's the popular wisdom. A couple of the interviewees in this collection of face-to-face interviews question why this is, given the prevalence of drug use in the rest of society, but I guess the conventional view is that it's expected.

What's exceptional about this book is that it doesn't seek the sort of salaciousness which marks other writings about drug habits, controlled or otherwise. There's no exploration of the joy of getting maggoted, of being off chops. Sure, some of the interviewees speak fondly of their habits - but the book doesn't exist to glorify the procedure or marginalise the user. It exists to spark discussion about use.

Musicians are lightning rods for drug coverage, and I believe that with this book, the author is attempting to encourage some kind of discussion beyond the basic narrative of useless junkies and redeemed-former-users into something with a bit of nuance. And let's face it, reading about Steve Kilbey's heroin use (and love of yoga) is more interesting than hearing it from a regular Joe.

McMillen's writing throughout is sound. He's been a regular contributor in a bunch of different places, and seems to always turn in solid, engaging copy. Though it's not about drugs or musicians, I recommend you read his take on the struggles behind Team Bondi's game LA Noire to get a sense of his style. It's masterful, and something he's talked about a little more at his website.

Through this book, McMillen occasionally mentions his own casual drug use but it seems fitting rather than vicarious. I want to say it normalises the musos' experiences, but that's not really right. I guess it creates a sense of normalcy which is often missing from drug writing: the everyday nature of some aspects of the practise.

While I can think of other Australian musicians I would rather have heard from than some here, I can imagine the difficulty faced in obtaining candid interviews about drugs, particularly from musicians of stature. McMillen notes that there were a lot of rejections to his requests for interviews. The roster that's on display here are plenty intriguing though, and offer surprising insights. Though I'm not a fan of some of the musos covered, the ease with which the conversations flow (at least, in reconstruction) provides enough of a hook to bypass any disappointment.

Mick Harvey's interview is a big plus, as is its mention of Rowland S. Howard. I must've missed the uproar about Paul Kelly's heroin use, but I well remember Phil Jamieson's drug-specific Enough Rope interview, as well as the various travails of Spencer P. Jones over the past decades. Hearing each of these three speak with such candour (and, often, regret) is a treat.

The rest of the work's interviews contain nuggets, too - I didn't think I could think Tina Arena was cool as shit, but here we are. I don't think his music's much chop, but Urthboy's interview was illuminating, as it presented him in a way I'd never seen. Ditto the slice of Gotye's life, given that he's not an imbiber. Actually, that's what makes the book interesting - the author gives as much credence to those who skirt around the sides of the issue (or who don't partake) as to the experiences of those who've explored drugs fully. It's more like a roundtable-in-pieces than a dissertation, and it prompts thought.

McMillen closes the book with a survey of how he conducted the interviews, as well as a comic by his brother, Stuart McMillen, on prohibition. The comic neatly conveys the call for communication, suggesting
If we are brave, there are intelligent debates to be had
Level-headed writing such as this - free from either wowser horror or fanboy obsession - is a great start. It's not as grim reading as Jack Marx's Sorry - The Wretched Tale Of Little Stevie Wright but it's just as important.
Profile Image for Cass Moriarty.
Author 2 books192 followers
July 7, 2016
The discourse on drugs in Australia has traditionally been black and white - on the one hand we have legal and widely-used drugs such as alcohol, caffeine, cigarettes and pain medication, and on the other we have illegal substances such as cocaine, heroin, ecstasy, methamphetamine and cannibis or marijuana. The dialogue generally accepts and even condones the first list, while demonising the second. In his non-fiction book Talking Smack, published by UQP, journalist Andrew McMillen seeks to encourage an open and honest conversation about the culture of drugs, and chooses to do so through the prism of the Australian music industry (because we all know that 'sex, drugs and rock 'n roll' go together).
Andrew interviews music industry professionals including: Steve Kilbey, Wally de Backer, Jon Toogood, Paul Kelly, Bertie Blackman, Mick Harvey, Tina Arena, Tim Levinson, Lindy Morrison, Ian Haug, Phil Jamieson, Holly Throsby, Spencer P. Jones and Jake Stone. The resulting dialogues are frank and thought-provoking, touching on the reasons people use drugs, how drugs were framed and discussed as they were growing up, the effect on creativity, lasting damaging consequences, family and financial effects, why people choose some drugs over others, which drugs they avoid, what they think about decriminilisation, the dangers of legal drugs, and long-term effects.
Without moralising, Andrew walks a fine line of balance and presents a wide-ranging and encompassing argument on all aspects of drug use within the music industry.
One of the most interesting aspects for me was the fact of the unpredictability of drugs: one drug might affect you differently each time you use it; one drug might affect you in a completely different way to someone else; a drug might have a cumulative effect over time. The other fascinating issue was the discussion around the legal drugs of alcohol and prescription medications, and society's different attitude to these drugs, despite their similarly damaging effects.
Some of the musicians interviewed explain quite candidly why they choose to take certain drugs, but while also categorising the side-effects and negative aspects that come with the perceived benefits. All seemed to be in agreement that any drug - in excess - was something best avoided; that long-term use is often the cause of financial strain, relationship pressure and career stress. And some of the most poignant moments in the interviews arise when the interviewee depicts a creative phase in their artistic life, or a settled family time, or a psychologically stable and productive stage when they were not using or relying on drugs, and they were able to realise that they could be great - artistically and creatively - without the addition of a substance. To some, that seemed a surprise; to others, a huge relief.
I think this book is an important addition to our cultural conversation about drug use, both legal and illegal.
I am very much looking forward to Andrew's next book, Skeleton School, in which he gives us an insight into the often fraught issue of body donation.







Cass Moriarty Author's photo.
Profile Image for Meredith.
43 reviews
December 5, 2014
This John Birmigham-esque romp through rock and roll is more than a music biography. Author Andrew McMillen doesn’t simply record dates and times of song s releases, hospitalizations and sell out shows. It looks at talking openly about drugs, by those who know what they’re talking about. It gives a sprawling look over musicians’ lives and how they intertwined with such a complex culture, sometimes bringing out great tales and memories, and sometimes meeting the brink of something darker. Stories are shared from musicians such as Paul Kelly, Tina Arena, Gotye and Urthboy. Andrew’s journalism background, and his own experiences of the drug culture has allowed Talking Smack to surpass the realm of interview and move deeper into the concept of something precious: a human life.

McMillen achieves this transmutation by bringing all his talents to the page. First and foremost, he was a journalist and the best journalists are more than reporters. A good journalist is also a conversationalist, an empathizer, a realist, a negotiator, a diplomat, sometimes an aggressive force, sometimes a shadow in the background and though many won’t believe it - even a friend. Andrew McMillen shows all of these things in between the pages of Talking Smack.

What are nestled in these pages are a reflection and open discussions. Andrew McMillen has managed to make tangible what many often fear: the truth. When you read Talking Smack you will be holding a solid, physical form of what is missing in many communities – the chance to discuss openly what is going on in our society and where the fear lies. As well as where it should actually be.
Profile Image for Susan.
4 reviews
September 12, 2015
Drugs and contemporary music have a long, synonymous and chequered history. As a fan of both art forms, I was curious about the experiences and opinions of those in the business. The book comprises of a number of vignette style stories - candid interviews with musos about their personal and first hand knowledge of (illegal) drugs. Well written and edited, it makes for interesting insights - ranging from innocent dope smoking as a teen, through the spectrum of various drug experiences, including the hell and destruction that usually comes with the territory with addiction to ice/opiates etc.. Given what would appear the intense subject matter, it's actually an easy read and includes an insightful cartoon at the end created by the author's brother about the merits of "the war on drugs".
Profile Image for Michael Talty.
1 review6 followers
October 16, 2014
I found this to be a brilliant insite into the minds of the artists and the candid open approach by the author to present the real life scenes and situations that faced the artist during there careers and shaped what we know today. Open recollections explained by the artists, not hyped up media presentation but one on one open expression of what goes on behind the name.
Andrew McMillen provides a real life approuch to allow the artists to clear the air and talk candidly about there experiences or lack of with drugs and alcohol in the world of rock and roll.
Highly recommend you read it for yourself. It's a gem!!
Profile Image for Kristy Chambers.
Author 3 books13 followers
October 23, 2014
An extremely well-written, interesting book that avoids the pitfalls of cliche and hysteria that often appear when drugs and music converge. Highly recommended.
Profile Image for Alexandrya Reeves.
24 reviews
July 7, 2024
Ehhhhhhh, I don’t know how I feel about this book. On the one hand amazing interviews with amazing musicians that I respect and listen to. I loved hearing about differing perspectives on drugs and how people thought it influenced their music. However, something felt off to me while reading it. It felt heavily biased, towards the authors view, towards male experiences and of course towards musicians experiences.

Im sure the the author would say that was the point and that he was not trying to provide any scientific backup ect ect. I thought however, it left a bad taste in my mouth. It seemed to glorify heroin use, and I didn’t learn much other than wow a lot of bands I listen to did heroin. I think maybe this should have been expanded a little more, maybe added some explanation and a few more balanced views and it could have been amazing.
4 reviews
November 29, 2017
Gives a good insight on the effect drugs have had on the Australian music industry
Profile Image for Stuart McMillen.
Author 3 books12 followers
February 5, 2017
I am a fan of Australian music, as well as someone who encourages a sensible public dialogue around drug use, so I was always going to enjoy Talking Smack.

Yet despite my anticipation, "Talking Smack: Honest Conversations About Drugs" managed to exceed my expectations.

It was the writing that allowed the book to surpass my expectations. Andrew McMillen's writing style was very crisp, clear and readable. The 14 musicians were given their own chapters, with McMillen writing a mini-biography of the artist's career, as viewed through the lens of their drug-taking.

I liked the sense of place that McMillen conveyed in the pieces. He spoke to each of the musicians face-to-face, and the environmental conditions of that meeting shines through in the writing. I could imagine what Steve Kilbey's flat was like, and what Brisbane was like on the Anzac Day when he talked to Jon Toogood. McMillen also tastefully intertwined his personal stories of drug-taking with the artists', allowing himself to come into the picture when it supported, or contrasted with the views of the artist.

Talking Smack comes highly recommended.
Profile Image for Jenny Valentish.
Author 11 books35 followers
November 24, 2014
Andrew McMillen's trajectory as a music journalist has been a hard and fast one - he's quickly become a trusted authority across all sorts of genres. And he's clearly a trusted interviewer, too, as he manages to get some notoriously tight-lipped musos to open up on one of the most taboo topics - their drug use. While some of the younger artists share the kind of experiences that verge on the mundane (which is telling in itself when you compare it to their oeuvre), there's some absolute gold mined from the likes of Paul Kelly and Steve Kilbey, and admirably, the likes of Bertie Blackman and Jake Stone don't shy away from studying their drug use alongside their mental health. While not exactly gonzo, McMillen offers his own view points and experiences on occasion, make this a fully immersive read.
1 review
January 8, 2015
I delved into this book with some degree trepidation initially. I'm employed in the AOD field and the last thing I wanted was a phalanx of musician "drug experts" playing my drug is bigger than your drug. That would be too much like work (and street press).

I think what makes this book work is the interviewing skills of the author. Whether by mistake or by design Andrew McMillen engages in a covert war of attrittion, a slow burn if you will, to squeeze the truths from behind facades tempered by too many 10 minute phoners tempered by the need to push units.

Yes some of the musicians are annoying, but I kinda wanted that.
All up well worth the time.



1 review2 followers
December 29, 2014
This is young Brisbane writer Andrew McMillen's first book. He interviewed 14 Australian musicians about drugs - whether they use drugs, why, their substances of choice, their experiences. The book doesn't glorify drug use, but it doesn't unnecessarily demonise it, either. As someone who is completely straight-edge and naive about these things, it's fascinating to read about something so foreign. Plus, the musicians - Paul Kelly, Gotye/Wally De Backer, Holly Throsby, Phil Jamieson, Tina Arena etc - really open up about their lives, and that's rewarding in itself. Highly recommended.
Profile Image for Tim Ashford.
7 reviews
June 22, 2015
An engaging collection of stories from a variety of Australian artists regarding their views on illicit drug use. This book manages to capture a wide range of unique perspectives on a very controversial subject and executes it flawlessly through a series of interviews. These may include anything from tasteful, light hearted banter to deeply emotional tales from the artists themselves. The most gripping element of this book is how REAL and honest the interviews are, something I believe to be uncommon when such a subject is brought up in mainstream media.
1 review
October 28, 2014
Truthfully I’m not much of a book reader. I usually struggle to find the time and rarely find anything that interests me enough to keep reading. However I started reading Talking Smack by Andrew McMillen and within 4 days had read it from cover to cover. Andrew wrote each persons unique story in this book in a way that made me want to keep reading. I highly recommend you check out Talking Smack by Andrew McMillen.
Profile Image for Genevieve Dingle.
44 reviews
September 24, 2014
I really enjoyed this book - both the descriptions of the musicians interviewed and their thoughts about drug use and it's effects (on themself, band members, friends). A variety of views is expressed here from those who are still pro-substance use to those who never used drugs, and those who have been badly affected by drug use and now avoid using. Good stuff!
Profile Image for Nick Crocker.
1 review27 followers
October 7, 2014
A clear, unvarnished look at the lives of artists and the role drugs played in their music.

Evenly told, deeply empathetic for the subjects and fast-moving, 'Talking Smack' adds depth to a topic that is often treated with only the most brief of analysis.

A must-read for music fans, those interested in the role of drugs in today's society.
Profile Image for Brett Wood.
1 review
October 14, 2014
As someone who works within the music industry it was great to read an honest account of musicians and drug use as opposed to the glamorised versions that are often produced by those seeking publicity. Not only was Talking Smack an entertaining read it was also an informative one. Highly recommended reading. Well done Mr. McMillen.
Profile Image for Riley O'donohue.
1 review25 followers
October 14, 2014
This book was interesting and well written. It furthered my appreciation of musicians and the internal battles they struggle with. Most importantly it provided me insight into the different journeys people have with drugs and shifted some of my more black and white thinking. There was a great mix of both funny and tragic moments which kept me engaged.

Profile Image for Emily Lighezzolo.
3 reviews2 followers
December 6, 2014
There is nothing better than a little literary controversy and Andrew does a marvelous job at dishing up the dissonant topic of drugs. For once, substance users are not interviewed with condemnation but honestly and objectively. Readers are admitted into a perspective on illegal substances that may just change their mind about them...
Profile Image for Tina.
646 reviews17 followers
September 22, 2015
Interesting look at the views on drugs and drug taking, as expressed by a number of prominent Australian musicians. I particularly liked the comic at the end, which discusses the futility of a 'war on drugs' and finishes with the line: "Let's understand which of our problems come from the drugs themselves...and which problems come from drugs being illegal." Something to think about there?
Profile Image for Tadhg.
97 reviews6 followers
September 20, 2014
Very frank discussions. The author has done a great job to elicit these conversations. Paul Kelly & Holly Throsby were the surprises for me. Great little graphic novel at the end.
1 review1 follower
October 16, 2014
Loved it. Cuts through the usual bullshit with great clarity. Entertaining and thought provoking.
1 review2 followers
February 1, 2015
Great read, interesting to read about the topic of drugs from a different point of view. Insightful and thought provoking. Well worth a read.
1 review
October 30, 2015
Absolutely loved this book. An amazing insight into the world of drugs in the Australian music scene. A must read!
Displaying 1 - 25 of 25 reviews

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