Brothers of the Gun: Wyatt Earp, Doc Holliday, and a Reckoning in Tombstone

by Mark Lee Gardner

An illuminating account of the most storied friendship of the American the bond between Wyatt Earp and Doc Holliday

In 1878, Wyatt Earp, town marshall of Dodge City, was attempting to arrest some drunken, armed men who’d cornered him in a saloon. John Henry “Doc” Holliday, who'd been gambling nearby, stepped in with a revolver and quieted the drunks, allowing Earp to make his arrests. This was the start to the most legendary friendship and partnership of the American West.

Through action-packed adventures, Gardner shows us how, over the years, Holliday became like a brother to Wyatt, riding from town to town, throughout the west. This thrilling narrative builds up to the moment when they'd hunt down the very men who murdered Wyatt's brother, Morgan, a legendary search that enthusiasts of the Wild West are eager to learn more about.

Gardner shows that there is far more to unearth about this famous friendship. Researched through firsthand observations at historic sites and countless contemporary letters and newspaper reports, this is the definitive book on Wyatt Earp, Doc Holliday, and their fascinating bond.

Genres: History, Nonfiction, Biography, Crime, Audiobook, American History, True Crime

336 pages, Hardcover

Published November 11, 2025

About the author

Mark Lee Gardner grew up in rural Missouri in the small town of Breckenridge (pop. 500), in the heart of historic Jesse James country. He's written extensively about the American West, on subjects such as the Santa Fe Trail, George Armstrong Custer, Bent's Old Fort, Geronimo, Billy the Kid, and Crazy Horse. His book on the 1876 Northfield raid by the notorious James-Younger gang, Shot All To Hell, received the Western Writers of America Spur Award for best western nonfiction historical book, the Best Book Award from the Wild West History Association, and the Milton F. Perry Award for Best Nonfiction Book. His Rough Riders, published in 2016, received the Army Historical Foundation Distinguished Writing Award, the Father Thomas J. Steele Award for History, and the Colorado Book Award for Biography.

Mark's most recent book is The Earth Is All That Lasts: Crazy Horse, Sitting Bull, and the Last Stand of the Great Sioux Nation (Mariner Books). Mark spent five years researching and writing this dual biography, examining rare documents and artifacts in archives and museums across the country, from Chicago's Newberry Library to Cody's Buffalo Bill Center of the West. And he visited numerous historic sites all over the northern plains, even crossing the "holy line" into Canada, where Sitting Bull and his followers spent four years in exile.

True West magazine proclaimed The Earth Is All That Lasts the "Best Historical Nonfiction Book" of 2022. The book also won the 2023 Colorado Book Award for best history/biography and the 2023 John M. Carroll Literary Award from the Little Big Horn Associates.

In addition to his historical research and writing, Mark is also a performer of the historic music of the American West. His most recent CD is Outlaws: Songs of Robbers, Rustlers, and Rogues.

Mark's passions include rare books and ephemera; historic photography; old-time, bluegrass, and classic country music; and hunting, mainly calling up gobblers in the spring.

Mark is the 2024 recipient of the Frank Waters Award for Literary Excellence. He holds a master's degree in American Studies from the University of Wyoming and a bachelor's degree in history and journalism (double major) from Northwest Missouri State University. He's married with two children and lives with his family at the foot of majestic Pikes Peak.

Follow Mark on Instagram: mark_lee_gardner

Reviews

[Brendan (History Nerds United) · Rating 4 out of 5]

There are very few times I will say this as a history nerd. I was very afraid of the truth when I started Mark Lee Gardner's Brothers of the Gun. Quite simply, I love the movie Tombstone too much. I already knew it played fast and loose with the facts, but dang it, it plays well with those fictions. I know precisely what Wyatt Earp and Doc Holliday actually looked like, but I can only picture Kurt and Val. The bad news is, yes, Tombstone is as fictional as you would expect. The good news is that this book is a hell of a lot of fun anyway.

Gardner is telling the story of Wyatt Earp and Doc Holliday. I assure I need not explain any further than that. I'll get to my critique first. Gardner's story is not as comprehensive as others on the subject. Doc feels very much like the second fiddle which makes sense since he basically disappears from the historical record a few times. That said, by far, Gardner's explanations of what happened, who do it, and why are the best I have read. This book is the first where the analysis lines up with what we know about all these characters (good guys and bad guys and well, let's be honest they are all gray at best) and what their motivations might be. While I mentioned the book is not as comprehensive as others, this is not to suggest Gardner skipped his own research. I think he just decided to streamline in a lot of places. Gardner clearly did his research and presented us with what we need to know.

Ultimately, this is a must read for Wild West fans. Non-fans may feel it is a little rushed or high-level, but I don't think anyone will complain much when they finish. It's a great (vendetta) ride.

(This book was provided as a review copy by NetGalley and Dutton Books.)

[Glen · Rating 5 out of 5]

An ARC from NetGalley.com

A well research book about the real legend of Wyatt Earp, Wyatt Earp's brothers, Bat Masterson, and Doc Holiday. We are treated to what happen at the OK Coral, what lead up to it and what happen afterwards. Very well written with lots of cite to old newspapers, diarys, and eye witnesses. I am not into westerns but I enjoyed reading this old west history. The resources cited were 40% of the book, along with pictures of Wyatt, his brothers, common-law wives,Bat, Doc, Doc's common-law wives and Bat Masterson and some of 'The Cowboys' outfit. I highly recommend this book.

[Bill Reynolds · Rating 2 out of 5]

Not my kind of history book, but I've been spoiled by reading some great, academic history books over the past few years. It's more like story telling, not in the sense of making stuff up, but in its prose style, which is just not to my taste. For instance, I prefer the terms "jail" or "prison" to the antiquated vernacular "calaboose". The author is not of the same mind, and it makes the prose breezy and unserious.

In the preface, the author insists that everything in the book is backed up by references. He then goes on to consistently speculate, using "possibly", "likely", "perhaps", "maybe or maybe not" and the like. As he says in the preface, he does include a really massive set of endnotes, divided by chapter and carefully numbered. However, there are no matching numbers in the text itself, making finding specific references for specific quoted dialog more trouble than it's worth. Possibly the target audience would have been distracted by numbers in the text, but I really appreciate them.

Consequently, I came away unconvinced that it was any more accurate than anything else about Earp & Holliday that I've read or seen.

[Cody · Rating 3 out of 5]

ARC

I'd like to thank Dutton and NetGalley for the chance to give "Brothers of the Gun" an early read in return for an honest review.

To keep things short, "Brothers of the Gun" presents an interesting portrait about two of Tombstone's best-known shooters, with their lives together as they head toward the infamous shootout in Tombstone, AZ. It's an intriguing topic, but felt a bit dry for my liking, not feeling like there was any kind of personality that made it stand out amongst other books about the west. I wasn't fairly knowledgeable about these two, so I personally learned a lot, but it isn't a comprehensive look at these two, so anyone with a basic understanding may find this a bit of a redundant read. I enjoyed getting to learn about these two men and the events that unfolded in Tombstone, but I wish it would have been done in a more interesting way to keep me wanting to continue reading.

Be sure to check "Brothers of the Gun" out when it is published on November 11, 2025!

[Michael A. · Rating 4 out of 5]

Much has been written and put on film about Wyatt Earp. Along with his brothers and infamous friend Doc Holliday, Earp moved from town to town during the heart of the Old West expansion in the late 1800’s. His legacy is that of a lawman but he had some vices as well. This book focuses on his friendship with Doc Holiday and numerous run ins with bad guys who were called cowboys. Unlike many depictions, this book does not make the famous Gunfight at the OK Corral in 1881 the centerpiece of the narrative. It is treated as one of many dangerous incidents in the life of Wyatt Earp.

[William McCabe · Rating 4 out of 5]

Thank you to NetGalley and Dutton for providing me with man advanced reading copy.

For someone who loves the movie Tombstone I found this book to be both informative and entertaining. The author has a knack for providing a feeling of what the Old West was like and there were points that I felt like I was reading a novel. While Gardner has nothing less than an engaging style he also doesn’t sugarcoat the actions of both Earp and Holliday, and puts their stories within the contexts of their place and time. Highly recommend to people who love Western history or movies!

[Dan · Rating 4 out of 5]

My thanks to NetGalley and Dutton for an advance copy of this history of the old West about two of the most famous names, lawmen, dentist, gambler, thief depending on is telling their tale, a retelling that tries to get past the myths and get to the truth of about these men, their lives, and their actions.

The American West continues to inspire and entertain people filling them with ideas of what was and what should be in the modern world. A man with a gun standing for what is right, and defending and revenging the put-upon. A cursory look at the west shows a world that is much like ours. Corrupt politicians being paid by the rich to enforce their idea of laws, with enforcement from men who made money by being lawmen. A dentist could be a gambler, a lawman could be a pimp. Accusations of vengeance and enforcing the laws could be made by different people. Stand your ground is close to what many of these men did, shot first, keep shooting and hope the other person doesn't shoot back. Dealing with the Old West, the Wild West the West of the Imagination is hard. Most like to print the legend, and many people believe it, as it is easy. I enjoy the fact that author admits that he hates this quote about printing legends. Reading this well-researched history and biography, about two men and one famous incident, one knows one is in good hands. Especially when the book is both informative and fun. Brothers of the Gun: Wyatt Earp, Doc Holliday, and a Reckoning in Tombstone by writer and historian Mark Lee Gardner is a dual biography of both men, and a tale of vengence, gun fights, extraordinary amounts of money, and how difficult it is to separate the truth from myths, when even the people involved prefer the mythology.

The book begins with the birth of both men, Wyatt Earp and Joe Henry "Doc" Holliday in different parts of the country. The Earps were a wondering family, their father always looking for the next big thing, followed by the big thing after that. Wyatt's father was also a lawman, a very lucrative trade back then. Wyatt left the area after being in law enforcement under a cloud with some missing tax money, that might have staked him as he went west. Holliday grew up in good family, though he was diagnosed with tuberculosis at a young age. Holliday had an uncle who was a dentist, which gave him a trade, but a knowledge of his illness, and a possible racial incident sent him West, where he found gambling, women and alcohol much to his liking. Wyatt and Doc as Holliday was known, met as Wyatt was working as a bounty hunter, starting an acquaintance that blossomed into a real friendship when Holliday came to Wyatt's aid during a difficult arrest in Dodge City, starting a friendship that would last, with a minor spat, through gun battles, ambushes, and numerous court cases, untill Holliday died.

This is a very well-researched book that is not romantic or with a rose colored glasses. Gardner is a very good writer, able to capture the feel of gun battles, of ambushes leaving Wyatt alone against cowboys, saving people in fires, being on the range. And even gambling with a sideline of being a pimp for both men. Gardner looks to find the truth, and presents it as it comes, not protected stories or probable lies from wifes in name only, fellow lawmen with a block on their shoulders, nor fawning writers and supporters. What one gets from this book, is that these men were complicated, who lived in violent occupations, lawman, gambler, dentist and drunk. What surprised me most was the money that lawman could make, one was making $40,000 dollars collecting taxes in Tombstone. No wonder law enforcement was so popular.

The book is very well written, with action, and lots of thoughtful moments, and questions asked about events. The truth will never really be known about most of the events these men were involved in. Both sides have good cases for and against what happened. Though I think this book comes the closest of all to separating the truth and the truth that many would prefer to believe. I have read quite a few book by Mark Lee Gardner and have enjoyed them. This might be my favorite and his best. A really good history, and even better a really good book, perfect for the holidays.

[Timothy Patrick Boyer · Rating 4 out of 5]

Icons never die.

Because of my lifelong love of westerns and—specifically—Tombstone, I've been a huge fan of Wyatt Earp and Doc Holliday for a good majority of my life. Even more so, I've been fascinated by Doc Holliday and the devotion he seemed to show Wyatt at every turn of their storied friendship, despite their contrasting dispositions. Most of what I've learned over the years—that wasn't exaggerated through the filter of Hollywood—tended to be vague; third, fourth or fifth-hand accounts, contradictory historical writings and the like.

So, to be able to dive into a history dedicated to them both—their lives, their friendship, the historic 30-seconds and its aftermath that made them immortal—that is as thoroughly researched and well-told as Mark Lee Gardner's Brothers of the Gun: Wyatt Earp, Doc Holliday, and a Reckoning in Tombstone , was really something special.

Trouble seemed to follow Wyatt. Doc made his own.

I'm generally not the biggest fan of nonfiction, but the way Gardner tells Wyatt & Doc's stories is as entertaining as it is informative. Through his research, he uncovers who these men really were: the good, the bad, and the ugly. The way he handles the timelines and Wyatt & Doc's questionable dealings throughout their lives never waters them down. Instead, his honest handling of the negative only ever makes the positives all the more impressive/iconic.

"Yes, we are friends."

I may have been left wanting more in terms of their actual time spent together, especially after they leave Tombstone, but I completely understand an account like that is impossible without some serious poetic license being taken, as apparently neither left behind much official detail about their peculiar connection. Understanding that, Brothers of the Gun isn't only the definitive historical retelling of the 1881 events in Tombstone, or the ultimate account of Wyatt & Doc's friendship, it very well may be the best, most well-researched and accurate exploration of who these men were and what they did in their many lives, both together and apart.

"This is funny."

8/10

[Nic · Rating 5 out of 5]

Many thanks to Netgalley and Dutton publishing for the advanced reader copy.

Gunfighters of the Old West have become legendary for their exploits, whether they actually happened or not. Like so many other legends and outlaws, when it comes to Wyatt Earp and his tubercular sidekick, Doc Holliday, it’s difficult, if not impossible, to know what is truth, what is legend, and what is the product of false accusations, prejudiced journalism, and dime store novel lore.

I’ve read several books written on the subject, only to later learn that most were not authentic, so I was quite intrigued by Gardner's take on Saintly Wyatt and Hardened Killer Holiday as they are often portrayed. I was also intrigued by the book’s premise of looking into the friendship that is often referred to as unlikely between the lawman and the gambler. What Gardner finds is that the friendship isn’t that unlikely because the two actually had quite a lot in common. They both took common law wives whose backgrounds were less than innocent. Both had incidents in their pasts that led them to seek new pastures.

While Earp is often portrayed as a lawman, he was, in fact a gambler just like Holliday. While the former dentist chased the next wild town and its many barrooms and gambling houses, Wyatt chased the next big rush, always looking to make that big fortune that seemed always one step ahead of him. Both were unfailingly loyal and seemingly without fear when it came to standing their ground in the face of threats and violence.

I've always found Gardner's books to be well researched and fact-based, and Brothers of the Gun was no different. I appreciate that Gardner admits when information isn't available to verify speculation. In this book, he brings forth a lot of information that I'd never read before, especially about the less than saintly incidents in Wyatt’s past and events in Tombstone that led up to and followed after the infamous shoot-out. Gardner keeps the pace moving and the details engaging. I found the book an enjoyable, fast read that made me thankful for what Gardner’s research uncovered, but also left me wondering about all those things we’ll never know about the famous friends: Where and how did Wyatt find out about Doc’s passing? What happened to all of Doc’s letters to his dear cousin Mattie? Can you imagine what could be learned about the dentist-turned-gambler if they were ever discovered? Gardner would have to write another book about it all, and I’d be just as eager to read that one as I was to read Brothers of the Gun.

[B.J. Burgess · Rating 4 out of 5]

*Disclosure: I received a free advance review copy of this book from NetGalley.

Mark Lee Gardner clearly poured extensive research into Brothers of the Gun. His narrative, however, has a streamlined quality—especially when it comes to portraying Doc Holliday, who often feels more like a sidekick in Wyatt’s saga rather than a fully fleshed-out historical figure. It's not as detailed or comprehensive as some other biographies swirling around, yet it is packed with facts that challenge the romanticized imagery often surrounding the duo. Gardner doesn't shy from exposing the less-than-glamorous aspects of Earp and Holliday, some of which I was already familiar with, and others that caught me off guard. Perhaps this was Gardner’s intention, a clever tactic to carve out a distinctive space in the crowded field of Wild West literature. There were occasional moments when I felt I was immersed in a fictional tale rather than a historical account—and maybe that was all by design.

But what do I know? I'm just a guy sharing thoughts from the dusty corners of my blog. Despite my moments of nitpicking, I enjoyed reading Brothers of the Gun. Gardner has a knack for weaving words; his prose dances off the page, and I found myself learning a few intriguing nuggets about Wyatt and Doc that I hadn’t encountered before. So, tip your hat and open your mind—this journey through the storied lives of two of the West’s most infamous characters is one worth taking. ╌★★★★✰

Find my full review at https://www.coffeeaddictedwriter.com/....

[John · Rating 5 out of 5]

Thanks to NetGalley and Dutton for allowing me to read this ARC in exchange for an honest review. This book was well researched, well written and a pleasure to read. I've read a lot about Wyatt Earp and Doc Holliday, but still learned a lot that I had not heard before. The author does an excellent job of telling the full histories of both Wyatt and Doc, warts and all, while examining their friendship through the years. He does a very thorough job of detailing Wyatt's days in Wichita and Dodge City, and does one of the best jobs I've yet read of explaining the events leading up to and describing the famous shootout at the OK Corral, as well as the aftermath. He also does an excellent job of detailing Wyatt's vendetta ride, probably the most clearly written description I've found. I would have liked a bit more information on their lives after Tombstone, but I understand that the main subject here was the friendship of Wyatt and Doc. The author brought out a lot of details I had not read before about their Tombstone days, and his analysis was top notch. You also meet, in less detail, all the other players like Virgil and Morgan Earp, Mattie, Sadie, Big Nosed Kate, Bat Masterson and the Cowboys. I thoroughly enjoyed this book and highly recommend it to anyone interested in the Old West, especially the real story of the shootout at the OK Corral. Also to anyone looking for a concise, yet thorough biography of Wyatt Earp and Doc Holliday.

[Ron · Rating 4 out of 5]

How well do you know the tale of the Shoot-out at the OK Corral? How many versions of this tale have you read? Well, get ready for another ride in the Earp vs Cowboys saga with Mark Gardner's Brothers of the Gun! But do not let the subtitle fool you, this books is about so much more than the shootout in Tombstone!

Mark Gardner lays the groundwork for the tale by digging up all the background on Wyatt Earp and his family along with similar attention to detail on Doc Holliday. The reader travels with the pair as they move west from Illinois and Georgia to Kansas and then on to New Mexico, Arizona, and California with stints in Colorado. And the reader learns about their employment or lack thereof along with their myriad family relationships. But Gardner's major focus is on the friendship between Wyatt Earp and Doc Holliday and the impact that friendship had on those around the pair whether that be Big Nose Kate, the other Earp brothers, or the Cowboys gang of thieves.

Mark Gardner's Brothers of the Gun provides a look into the Old West through the lens of the Earp - Holiday partnership. The reader gets to time travel to the past and find not a black and white world of heroes and villains, but rather a world of gray where actions and men could be good or bad depending on one's point of view. If you are interested in visiting, do pick up a copy of Brothers of the Gun and enjoy!

Thanks Netgalley and Dutton for the chance to read this title!

[Meghan · Rating 4 out of 5]

This was a well researched and entertaining biography of Wyatt Earp and Doc Holliday. Gardner does a good job of presenting a balanced view of these men. There was a lot of care given to showing the limitations and biases present in the limited primary source data.

There were no major revelations, but I think that I would be much more skeptical of any book claiming to have a major revelation about Tombstone. I did learn a few new things and overall enjoyed my reading experience.

My one quibble was that there were quite a few abrupt transitions. For example, in the section about Doc's time in Las Vegas when he entered and lost a lottery pool for a violin, Gardner says that it is a good thing that he lost, because the last thing that Doc needs is a violin. To me this reads like the beginning of a longer anecdote; why is a violin, specifically, the last thing that Doc needs? However, the book immediately moved on to the next scene.

Thank you to NetGalley and Dutton for the ARC in exchange for an honest review.

[Sara Planz · Rating 5 out of 5]

Wyatt Earp and Doc Holliday are two of the most legendary figures from the American West. Books, movies, and television have popularized their friendship, but what is the true story? Author Mark Lee Gardner separates the truth from the lore in this fascinating look at these men. Gardner writes in such a powerful way that I feel like I had a front-row seat to the entire story. I know some people feel like it is a challenge to make history entertaining, but this book did that beautifully. Gardner did a phenomenal amount of research, finding many firsthand accounts, allowing him to deliver a nuanced look at these two men and the world they found themselves in.

[Richard Jackson · Rating 4 out of 5]

Over 4 stars. Last year I was on a kick of reading histories of the Old West and happened up several by Tom Clavin and associates that were excellent. I have to say that Brothers of the Gun ranks up there with those at the very least. It has to be the most extensive history of Wyatt Earp and his association with Doc Holiday that I have read. A fascinating read although at times a little too extensive in terms of all the smaller events in their lives. I kept comparing it to the movie Tombstone with Val Kilmer and Kurt Russell which was very well done but not strictly historical. If you like these types of histories would be hard pressed to find a better way to spend your time.

[Michael Jacobs · Rating 5 out of 5]

Brothers of the Gun by Mark Lee Gardner is a solid read for anyone interested in the Old West. Gardner digs into the real story behind Wyatt Earp and Doc Holliday's friendship, showing how they first teamed up in Dodge City before the famous O.K. Corral shootout. The book also covers the aftermath, including Wyatt's quest for revenge after his brother Morgan was killed. Gardner uses letters, diaries, and newspaper reports to paint a detailed picture of these two men and their bond. If you're into Western history and want a clear, well-researched account, this one's worth picking up.

[Kate Freedman · Rating 3 out of 5]

Okay, first of all, Tombstone is one of my all time favorite movies. I listened to this nonfiction to get the unembellished story behind the story. First of all, Wyatt Earp and Doc Holliday were just as bad a$$ as the movie depicted. However… and maybe it was because I was listening instead of reading, but all these cowboy nicknames get a little muddled, taking away from the drama of the story. If I ever try to go through this again, I’m getting a hard copy and a little post it note to keep all the bad guys straight 😂

[Bruce Raterink · Rating 5 out of 5]

Thoroughly researched and well written, this book about Wyatt Earp and Doc Holliday grabbed me from the first chapter and kept me enthralled throughout. My only prior knowledge of these individuals came from TV shows and movies throughout the past few decades which were no doubt fictionalized and embellished. It was nice to have a concise, accurate biography. Highly recommended

Thanks to NetGalley and Dutton for an advanced reader copy

[Amber K · Rating 4 out of 5]

I do not read non-fiction very often, but sometimes, a subject that I like catches my eye, and I'll dive in!
This was a well written and very well put together book! When an author can make a non-fiction story, read like a fiction story, for me, that's the hook! I devoured this one. And having read a few books on Wyatt & Doc in the past, I was pleasantly surprised to learn quite a few new details!!
Terrific book & definitely recommended!!

[patrick Lorelli · Rating 5 out of 5]

A very thorough look into the lives of Wyat Erap and Doc Holliday. The author has plenty of research to back both of the famous men and the people who surround each one. Also, how they became friends. I found it interesting how, with this book and others about the shoutout, people were still looking at the men called the cowboys as the good guys, when, with multiple readings, have them as rusters, robbers, and such, but that was a time, I guess. Overall, a good book.

[Valerity (Val) · Rating 4 out of 5]

A more fact-filled and honest telling of the lives of Wyatt Earp and Doc Holliday is the aim here. I’d say that it seems the author succeeded in the telling without all the hero worship or bashing that has been common. This is a good book on the subjects and I never tire of its telling.

[Daniel Ford · Rating 5 out of 5]

A really balanced, eminently readable account of the intersection of these two larger-than-life characters. Sticks close to documented statements and evidence and tries to bring the men out of the legend.

[Phillip Sawyer · Rating 5 out of 5]

Fine look at Doc Holliday and Wyatt Earp and their friendship. They were friends through Hell and High Water and Doc was there at the O.K. Corral and Wyatt’s Vendetta Ride. Anyone who enjoys an exciting history will like this book!

[Gary · Rating 4 out of 5]

Another great western history from Mark Lee Gardner.

[Rik · Rating 5 out of 5]

...well there's Tombstone ruined for me!! Great book, very well researched and written. A lot of detective work has gone in here to find the truth amongst the myths and various fictions.

[Tori Thompson · Rating 5 out of 5]

That last line made me CRY😭

Full review coming soon

[Mike Green · Rating 4 out of 5]

Expanded version of the movie tombstone with a better telling of how everyone was on the wrong side of the law!

[Phyllis · Rating 4 out of 5]

Zippy, honest, and unromanticized account of the lead-up, gunfight, and aftermath of the OK Corral. Still going to regularly rewatch Tombstone though.

[Tom · Rating 5 out of 5]

Good, well-researched story telling. Not necessarily anything new here; just a masterful retelling of the familiar story and occasional debunking of myths and outright fabrications.

[NonFiction 24/7 · Rating 4 out of 5]

This book is extremely detailed and researched. It's good but a little to much for me, it's probably a really good book for people who are really into the topic.