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What Love Means to You People
A powerful debut about a young man whose denial of his past nearly destroys the new life he seeks
Shaking off his hellish adolescence in a nowhere Nebraska town (and leaving a beloved younger sister to fend for herself in the same hostile environment), Seth McKenna escapes to make a new reality for himself as a struggling artist in Manhattan. When he falls hard for Jim Glaser, an alluring older man who is astonished to find in Seth the second love of his life, it seems simpler to gloss over his old life in Drinkwater and the history he used to have. Jim, who expected to remain alone forever, is happy to start over, too, and theirs becomes a tender, sexy romance.
Although Seth seems to have successfully put his past behind him to become the man he wants to be---the kind of man Jim can cherish---his childhood rushes back unexpectedly and with a vengeance. When Seth's sister, Cassie, arrives in the city with significant secrets and plans of her own, Drinkwater's intractable demands force Seth to revisit his hidden past. What Jim learns about Seth's concealments threatens to destroy their new life together.
An engrossing contemporary drama of family ties both imposed and chosen, What Love Means to You People presents an indelible, illuminating look at the survival of the human spirit through willful reinvention and the power of love.
Advance Praise for What Love Means to You People
"A powerful debut novel--smart, sexy, and highly readable. NancyKay Shapiro's characters are subtly observed and movingly human."--Regina McBride, author of The Marriage Bed
"Profound and moving. Shapiro dares to reimagine suffering and takes us on a journey to love and back. Seth McKenna will get under your skin. I am touched."--Abha Dawesar, author of Babyji
"NancyKay Shapiro's debut is a powerful and knowing look at what can happen to love when the past bubbles up into the present. Elegantly written, this is a moving and surprising novel that doesn't let you go."--Katharine Weber, author of The Little Women, The Music Lesson, and Objects in Mirror Are Closer Than They Appear
Shaking off his hellish adolescence in a nowhere Nebraska town (and leaving a beloved younger sister to fend for herself in the same hostile environment), Seth McKenna escapes to make a new reality for himself as a struggling artist in Manhattan. When he falls hard for Jim Glaser, an alluring older man who is astonished to find in Seth the second love of his life, it seems simpler to gloss over his old life in Drinkwater and the history he used to have. Jim, who expected to remain alone forever, is happy to start over, too, and theirs becomes a tender, sexy romance.
Although Seth seems to have successfully put his past behind him to become the man he wants to be---the kind of man Jim can cherish---his childhood rushes back unexpectedly and with a vengeance. When Seth's sister, Cassie, arrives in the city with significant secrets and plans of her own, Drinkwater's intractable demands force Seth to revisit his hidden past. What Jim learns about Seth's concealments threatens to destroy their new life together.
An engrossing contemporary drama of family ties both imposed and chosen, What Love Means to You People presents an indelible, illuminating look at the survival of the human spirit through willful reinvention and the power of love.
Advance Praise for What Love Means to You People
"A powerful debut novel--smart, sexy, and highly readable. NancyKay Shapiro's characters are subtly observed and movingly human."--Regina McBride, author of The Marriage Bed
"Profound and moving. Shapiro dares to reimagine suffering and takes us on a journey to love and back. Seth McKenna will get under your skin. I am touched."--Abha Dawesar, author of Babyji
"NancyKay Shapiro's debut is a powerful and knowing look at what can happen to love when the past bubbles up into the present. Elegantly written, this is a moving and surprising novel that doesn't let you go."--Katharine Weber, author of The Little Women, The Music Lesson, and Objects in Mirror Are Closer Than They Appear
384 pages, Hardcover
First published January 1, 2006
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Displaying 1 - 24 of 24 reviews
September 10, 2016
A minha opinião em vídeo: https://youtu.be/zNH7NeGFc1E
Que surpresa tão boa! Encontrei este desconhecido numa promoção a 3€.
Uma história de amor com muitas camadas e segredos escondidos do passado que levam dois homens a apaixonarem-se.
Mais uma leitura LGBT de que gostei imenso.
Que surpresa tão boa! Encontrei este desconhecido numa promoção a 3€.
Uma história de amor com muitas camadas e segredos escondidos do passado que levam dois homens a apaixonarem-se.
Mais uma leitura LGBT de que gostei imenso.
May 22, 2011
I wrote it.
August 26, 2016
Comprei este livro por curiosidade, e esperando outro tipo de história.
Fui surpreendia quando, ao iniciar a sua leitura, me apercebi que é uma história de dois gays!
As personagens principais são o Seth e o Jim, mas destaco o Seth, pois a sua história de vida é toda analisada.
Neste livro temos não só uma bonita história de amor, mas muito, muito drama.
Começo por avisar que não é qualquer pessoa que consegue ler este livro. Para começar, tem que ter a homossexualidade bem aceite na sua mente, porque, como não podia deixar de ser (parece que se tornou hábito entre os escritores), temos cenas de sexo neste livro, bem descritas, sem floreados. E sexo entre dois homens ainda não é algo que tenha entrado na maior parte da mentalidade das pessoas.
Depois, preparem bem esses estômago, porque terão uma dose de violação, uma violação bastante cruel, macabra, nada fácil de ler, exploração, maus tratos, e assassinatos.
Um livro bastante empolgante, como podem perceber.
E depois, segredos. Muitos e muitos segredos! Este Seth é um poço cheio deles! E andamos quase até ao final do livro a descobrir coisas. O que é bom, o ideal, para assim nos prender até ao seu fim.
Eu tinha vontade de devorar o livro, ao mesmo tempo que o queria ler calmamente, para saborear cada bocado. Foi uma luta interna intensa.
E o Seth é uma personagem fantástica! Misterioso, chocante, cheio de segredos, meigo, forte, lutador, que nos leva ao extremo da pobreza. E que nos dá a conhecer todo um mundo que nos é desconhecido, pelo menos a mim.
Com ele aprendemos que vale a pena lutar, não desistir, e que tentar viver numa mentira não é fácil. Ela acaba por vir ao de cima, e nós somos aqueles que saímos mais magoados da história.
Neste livro também tiramos a conclusão de que um filho é, sem dúvida, uma dádiva! E pode sê-lo em vários sentidos!
Fui surpreendia quando, ao iniciar a sua leitura, me apercebi que é uma história de dois gays!
As personagens principais são o Seth e o Jim, mas destaco o Seth, pois a sua história de vida é toda analisada.
Neste livro temos não só uma bonita história de amor, mas muito, muito drama.
Começo por avisar que não é qualquer pessoa que consegue ler este livro. Para começar, tem que ter a homossexualidade bem aceite na sua mente, porque, como não podia deixar de ser (parece que se tornou hábito entre os escritores), temos cenas de sexo neste livro, bem descritas, sem floreados. E sexo entre dois homens ainda não é algo que tenha entrado na maior parte da mentalidade das pessoas.
Depois, preparem bem esses estômago, porque terão uma dose de violação, uma violação bastante cruel, macabra, nada fácil de ler, exploração, maus tratos, e assassinatos.
Um livro bastante empolgante, como podem perceber.
E depois, segredos. Muitos e muitos segredos! Este Seth é um poço cheio deles! E andamos quase até ao final do livro a descobrir coisas. O que é bom, o ideal, para assim nos prender até ao seu fim.
Eu tinha vontade de devorar o livro, ao mesmo tempo que o queria ler calmamente, para saborear cada bocado. Foi uma luta interna intensa.
E o Seth é uma personagem fantástica! Misterioso, chocante, cheio de segredos, meigo, forte, lutador, que nos leva ao extremo da pobreza. E que nos dá a conhecer todo um mundo que nos é desconhecido, pelo menos a mim.
Com ele aprendemos que vale a pena lutar, não desistir, e que tentar viver numa mentira não é fácil. Ela acaba por vir ao de cima, e nós somos aqueles que saímos mais magoados da história.
Neste livro também tiramos a conclusão de que um filho é, sem dúvida, uma dádiva! E pode sê-lo em vários sentidos!
August 18, 2007
There are many moments I remember fondly from this book - each of the characters have made mistakes in their lives, and it isn't too long before the secrets they've been hiding and the miscommunications that have been festering come to a head. They each have a deep flaw that they have to overcome - Jim must process, deal, and over come the repercussions of his last lover's death, Seth has his own scarring emotional trauma that he's only ever told one other person about (but that is revealed slowly later in the book), and Cassie has to find the strength to break free from the life she was sliding into so that she can live the life she dreams of, and the ability to move past the prejudices that were not only directed at her, but that she was directing as well. There's a poetic twist revealed later in the book that I wasn't expecting and don't want to spoil, but I thought it was excellently done, and brought into motion more character development that still had to be done. The naked woman across the street and the destruction of Seth's art were two powerful events that showed so much more that was going on behind the scenes and beneath the surface. Seth's trauma made me cry, and many other moments made me happy, and I would highly recommend this book.
September 11, 2011
I thoroughly enjoyed this wholly adult love story about two very different, very damaged men set against the backdrop of contemporary New York City. Compared to so many modern love stories (gay or straight), this novel strikes me as very realistic and grown up. Too often writers become so enamoured of their characters that they tend to shy away from showing them as whole people with human imperfections and/or they seem to graft slapdash, quickie happy endings onto otherwise complicated, difficult tales. Shapiro, however, exhibits uncommon bravery to allow her protagonists, forty something ad exec Jim Glaser and his twenty-three year old artist lover Seth McKenna, to be deeply, believably flawed. Don't get me wrong - both men are still extremely likeable, perhaps more so because they come across as so real. And the ending is realistically, but hopefully, ambiguous.
Jim is still mourning the unexpected and senseless loss of his longtime lover when he meets Seth at a photo shoot. Tentatively the men begin a platonic relationship. As their feelings for one another heat up, the older man nervously delays taking the sexual plunge such that the tension between them is excruciating (for both the characters and the readers) by the time they finally do fall into bed. This proves a refreshing change of pace from so much gay fiction where the order of events tends to be - sex first, relationship later. But when Jim and Seth do consummate, the sex scenes are intensely passionate and more than a little pornographic. Hot stuff indeed. But what starts off wondrously soon sours when the secret past that Seth so meticulously hid from Jim comes back to haunt him. What Seth viewed as self-reinvention, Jim interprets as deceit. The crisis is brought to a head during a trip back to Seth's hometown in Drinkwater, Nebraska.
It is in Drinkwater that I find this otherwise perfect book's only true shortcoming. I felt Shapiro, a born and bred city gal, painted most of the rural characters as broad stereotypes of ignorance and evil. It would have leant the book more gravity, and certainly been more believable, if the reader had been given more of a balanced view, perhaps even a glimpse into the motivations behind their behaviours.
But this is a quibble. What Love Means To You People is an amazing achievement. I recommend this to readers of LGBT fiction (and fans of the Big Apple) who seek an emotionally engaging, slightly spicy, uncommonly realistic love story.
Jim is still mourning the unexpected and senseless loss of his longtime lover when he meets Seth at a photo shoot. Tentatively the men begin a platonic relationship. As their feelings for one another heat up, the older man nervously delays taking the sexual plunge such that the tension between them is excruciating (for both the characters and the readers) by the time they finally do fall into bed. This proves a refreshing change of pace from so much gay fiction where the order of events tends to be - sex first, relationship later. But when Jim and Seth do consummate, the sex scenes are intensely passionate and more than a little pornographic. Hot stuff indeed. But what starts off wondrously soon sours when the secret past that Seth so meticulously hid from Jim comes back to haunt him. What Seth viewed as self-reinvention, Jim interprets as deceit. The crisis is brought to a head during a trip back to Seth's hometown in Drinkwater, Nebraska.
It is in Drinkwater that I find this otherwise perfect book's only true shortcoming. I felt Shapiro, a born and bred city gal, painted most of the rural characters as broad stereotypes of ignorance and evil. It would have leant the book more gravity, and certainly been more believable, if the reader had been given more of a balanced view, perhaps even a glimpse into the motivations behind their behaviours.
But this is a quibble. What Love Means To You People is an amazing achievement. I recommend this to readers of LGBT fiction (and fans of the Big Apple) who seek an emotionally engaging, slightly spicy, uncommonly realistic love story.
January 12, 2009
I truly wish the author had resisted the urge to insert violence and a 'realistic' ending to this otherwise charming and touching romance. Seth is a twenty-three year old Cooper Union fine arts graduate student hoping to refine his skill as a painter. Jim is a forty-two year old advertising executive cruising through life on empty after the unexpected death of his life partner, which also dashed his hopes of becoming a father. The two meet on a photo shoot and have an instantaneous spark. Complications ensue as not only the age difference and Jim's incredulous and mocking friends threaten to keep them apart, but Jim's lingering grief and Seth's fear of being or seeming to be a rent boy also add complications. I truly enjoyed this part of the story.
Then... the author saw fit to add in complications. Seth's sister, Cassie arrives in New York, carrying the baggage of the truth about their home life and the baggage of a baby in utero. Seth's mother's heart attack forces both the truth to come out, the lies devastating Jim, and for Seth to face the reality of his home life. The terrible sexual violence perpetrated on Seth by those who should love him is described in heart-wrenching detail and cannot be glossed over by the reader. I felt the violence was unnecessary and frankly, it was so extreme as to seem somewhat unbelievable.
Spoiler alert: I would have given the book four stars, however, if not for the ending, which broke my heart with its' acceptance of stale safety instead of joyous life.
Then... the author saw fit to add in complications. Seth's sister, Cassie arrives in New York, carrying the baggage of the truth about their home life and the baggage of a baby in utero. Seth's mother's heart attack forces both the truth to come out, the lies devastating Jim, and for Seth to face the reality of his home life. The terrible sexual violence perpetrated on Seth by those who should love him is described in heart-wrenching detail and cannot be glossed over by the reader. I felt the violence was unnecessary and frankly, it was so extreme as to seem somewhat unbelievable.
Spoiler alert: I would have given the book four stars, however, if not for the ending, which broke my heart with its' acceptance of stale safety instead of joyous life.
February 13, 2012
This book has a good story, and some really beautiful passages in the writing. That is the good stuff.
On the other hand, it has many sentences that are so badly constructed that I found it a headache to read. I found one sentence with - count them - eight commas. It was also very often confusing to figure out who the speaker was in a dialog.
But the biggest frustration was with the lack of research into small town life and people, and the utter bias against small midwestern life. This author's absolute disdain for it, and her feeling of superiority as a New Yorker, made the book hard to swallow. A reader growing up in the heartland of America instantly recognizes the ignorant stereotypes, two-dimensional characters (really caricatures) and lack of realism. Even the pivotal tragic scene of the main character's abuse during a teenaged experience, is not realistic.
We also have a romance between a 23 year old, and a man over 40. Maybe I'm old-fashioned, but I find that plenty creepy.
The ending is odd: little is resolved of the mess the author has stirred up. The last paragraphs present such an abrupt ending to the book that I had to wonder if Kindle had allowed me to download the complete book. (Checking with a friend assured me that I had.)
I wish I could say more positive, because this writer shows so much potential in her use of language. Again, some passages are breathtakingly beautiful. But her prejudice and simple lack of solid information and understanding, ruin the book. Too bad.
On the other hand, it has many sentences that are so badly constructed that I found it a headache to read. I found one sentence with - count them - eight commas. It was also very often confusing to figure out who the speaker was in a dialog.
But the biggest frustration was with the lack of research into small town life and people, and the utter bias against small midwestern life. This author's absolute disdain for it, and her feeling of superiority as a New Yorker, made the book hard to swallow. A reader growing up in the heartland of America instantly recognizes the ignorant stereotypes, two-dimensional characters (really caricatures) and lack of realism. Even the pivotal tragic scene of the main character's abuse during a teenaged experience, is not realistic.
We also have a romance between a 23 year old, and a man over 40. Maybe I'm old-fashioned, but I find that plenty creepy.
The ending is odd: little is resolved of the mess the author has stirred up. The last paragraphs present such an abrupt ending to the book that I had to wonder if Kindle had allowed me to download the complete book. (Checking with a friend assured me that I had.)
I wish I could say more positive, because this writer shows so much potential in her use of language. Again, some passages are breathtakingly beautiful. But her prejudice and simple lack of solid information and understanding, ruin the book. Too bad.
February 15, 2010
Um livro que me surpreendeu a todos os níveis, especialmente por ser algo desconhecido. É uma história bastante dramática e emocionante com duas das personagens mais profundas que ja tive o prazer de conhecer. A autora tem uma linguagem fresca e directa que torna a leitura deste livro num vício. Recomendo a todos os amantes de romances não convencionais.
January 26, 2010
This book has everything you could want and Seth...just love Seth. He's brave and wounded and you cannot help but love him.
September 18, 2019
Um bom livro mas não me prendeu muito.
Acho que estou a ficar cansada e não consigo concentrar-me em nenhuma leitura
Acho que estou a ficar cansada e não consigo concentrar-me em nenhuma leitura
January 27, 2016
Leaving his childhood town wasn’t that easy for Seth McKenna. For with this decision, he also had to leave his younger sister together with their fragile mother in the hands of his abusive and violent stepfather. Seth’s escapes to make a new life for himself manages to be fruitful and productive even just a struggling artist in Manhattan. Then a handsome older man, Jim Glaser, starts to come in Seth’s way and is greatly astonished to found in Seth the greatest love of his life. Surprised at the way their romance bloom -as he expected to be alone in life forever for he still loved his last partner- Jim is much satisfied on how his new life offers him with so much indulgence. Then suddenly Seth’s sister comes in. And as it happen things blurred in Jim’s mind, blocking his thought and asking himself he really knew the person he loves.
What Love Means to You People is a beautifully written debut from an undoubtfully talented writer. It is one of the few novels I’ve read which consists of such readable lines and quotable conversations. Dialogues and sentences which often comes to my mind and not those poetic and cliché types that looks as if their acting which commonly doesn’t happen in real life.
The novels play on different human emotions in my opinion is top-notched. It also succeeds in delivering a resolution that is also satisfying. For what will you do if the one person you thought you knew presented something you never knew before? For Seth, lying to Jim doesn’t really mean he’s cheating or being unfaithful with his partner but rather protecting him from something he knew might possibly destroy their relationship. His willful reinvention about his life is enough to see how much he is capable of loving. Seth McKenna and Jim Glaser stands with me together with Gordon Merrick’s Patrice Valmer in The Quirk as one of those characters I knew I’ll never forget. I highly recommend this to everyone.
And I’m just glad to share a message from the author.
“NancyKay said,
Thank you so much! It’s such a thrill to get a message from a reader, and know the book has reached someone who appreciates it. And I feel honored to be placed near Dame Iris, who is in my top pantheon of writers.”
Opening Sentences: Jim Glaser still did what needed to be done, every day.
Ending Sentences: He doesn’t want to scare him away.
What Love Means to You People is a beautifully written debut from an undoubtfully talented writer. It is one of the few novels I’ve read which consists of such readable lines and quotable conversations. Dialogues and sentences which often comes to my mind and not those poetic and cliché types that looks as if their acting which commonly doesn’t happen in real life.
The novels play on different human emotions in my opinion is top-notched. It also succeeds in delivering a resolution that is also satisfying. For what will you do if the one person you thought you knew presented something you never knew before? For Seth, lying to Jim doesn’t really mean he’s cheating or being unfaithful with his partner but rather protecting him from something he knew might possibly destroy their relationship. His willful reinvention about his life is enough to see how much he is capable of loving. Seth McKenna and Jim Glaser stands with me together with Gordon Merrick’s Patrice Valmer in The Quirk as one of those characters I knew I’ll never forget. I highly recommend this to everyone.
And I’m just glad to share a message from the author.
“NancyKay said,
Thank you so much! It’s such a thrill to get a message from a reader, and know the book has reached someone who appreciates it. And I feel honored to be placed near Dame Iris, who is in my top pantheon of writers.”
Opening Sentences: Jim Glaser still did what needed to be done, every day.
Ending Sentences: He doesn’t want to scare him away.
March 12, 2013
This is the great undiscovered gem of contemporary, quality gay fiction. In fact, it is one of the three best works of gay fiction, ever, along with "Call Me By Your Name" and "The Unreal Life of Sergei Nabokov." Published in 2006, and now out-of-print, it beautifully written and erotically charged. Stylistically, the novel calls to mind Michael Cunningham and Alan Hollinghurst; author NancyKay Shapir the same keen eye on the subtleties of contemporary urban life.
Someone, somewhere has to get this book a reprint!
Someone, somewhere has to get this book a reprint!
February 19, 2008
Beautifully written, engaging novel about love. The characters draw you in to their world seamlessly. I thoroughly enjoyed reading this, and have gone back and re-read it a couple of times. Highly recommended
May 5, 2012
I read the book in nearly one sitting - two long flights. It speaks to how fully I was sucked into the story, choosing it over sleeping. And I like the way the narrative flows when read all in one sitting.
Big picture:
What I appreciated about this novel was the way it explored the idea of identity. One may want to be someone other than who one is, to start fresh and put a difficult past behind, or to simply think there are parts of one's life that are inconsequential to who one is. It is rarely true. The truth is that each of us is blind to just how much we are a product of our experiences and if we don't allow those we love and who love us back to know all facets, then there will be frustration as 2 plus 2 keeps coming up as 5. Not to mention that the part of ourselves that we deny simply begins to eat us up from the inside.
Little things that distracted me:
I kept asking myself if I found the picture the author painted of the rural mid-west was realistic or not. Of course, this is complicated that I am a mid-westerner, but grew up in a metropolitan area. However the university I attended was in a rural area and I have friends from the area. (Remember the whole Herman bachelor phenomena of the mid-90's? I had friends who were those bachelors?)
That said, I felt the characterization of Seth's mother and step-father were believable. Seth's mom in particular is frightening similar in character and situation of the sister of an acquaintance of mine. And sadly, Seth's step-dad can be found everywhere, if you are willing to acknowledge it. Cassie felt real in the way she lost herself in books and chaffed against her life - up onto the point she arrives in New York and realizes Seth is gay and her reaction to that. First, anyone who reads as much as she does would be more worldly about homosexuality than she seemed to be. Second, people in small towns watch TV. They've seen Will & Grace, they've seen Willow and Tara fall in love, they've watched the French lesbians help save the day on Passions, etc. There may be a slightly stronger 'don't ask, don't tell' sense in small towns, but not utter foreignness. There is a long tradition of "bachelor" farmers or "old maids" living together for years and people can connect the dots. They just don't make a big deal about it. Back to point. What would have helped is if it had somehow been more clearly shown that for as much as Cassie sneered at her mother's messed up religious ideas, some of those ideas, even if Cassie intellectually knew they were messed up, influenced her worldview.
One last thing and then I'll get off my small town soap box. In chapter 12 there is this description about how "so many of the girls [Cassie] knew from high school who weren't destined for college did things to themselves." It goes on to describe that they get pregnant, then marry or are cutters or are bulimic or are alcoholic or get fat or are meth heads. That's true of some. A limited some. There are some who do want to live in that community and farm or whatever and marry and live lives with which they are happy. Lots don't want to live there and leave, whether it is for college or often community college or beautician's school or wherever. Most aren't actively held back by family who may miss them but understand their need to strike out and find their own place in the world. It is a well written description with this rhythm that captured me, but the content distracted me.
The thing is even for all my "but... but... but" about the portrayal of small town life, it is a limited portion of the story. It is told through the point of view of characters who have various reasons to not have a holistic, even handed view of small town life.
Little things that mattered so much:
Loved the offer of the glass of milk. So unexpected, particularly in the setting. Sorta like Seth himself.
The moment that gave me chills because it was one of those moments of extraordinary human kindness at what felt like such a key moment: When Mr. Hecklin, the guidance counselor, makes Seth an offer and shares a bit of himself and Seth accepts. It is interesting, in retrospect, realizing just was a turning point moment that conversation and offer really was in Seth's life.
The pretentious-colored glasses through which Jim viewed and understood small town life and the people living that life. Jim was so easy to love as a character and as much as it saddened me that he has this fault, it made him human to have such a fault.
A small thank you for the line one of the characters (Mr Hecklin? The cop?) which clarified it wasn't Christianity that was to blame for Seth's mother's read of what a good wife and mother does and ignores, but the particular dynamics of that church. (Yeah, I totally admit to being hypersensitive to how Christianity is portrayed. I'm not saying it needs to or should be portrayed as always being lightness and goodness, but too often it is lumped together as being purely those who have extreme views that I, too, find distasteful.)
The big reveal in the trailer. (Yes, I'm being vague as all get out. Don't want to ruin it.) It totally caught me by surprise, yet the moment of the reveal was an ah ha where a bunch of little details fell into place, giving me that "but of course" feeling. So a good reveal. The type where, maybe, if I had read this in slower chunks, gone back to a particular scene when I had a question later about one of the characters, I might have seen it coming. But probably not. But the clues were there that I could have. To me that's a good reveal. Not like the annoying reveals that ::cough::Dan Brown::cough:: does, where it is freaking impossible to have known who the villain was prior to the reveal because the clues sucked or didn't exist at all.
The use of present tense in part 6. It created a sense of skip-hop, push-pull in the narrative. Which to me, without giving away the ending, tells the reader as much about where the characters are in the end as does the words. Life (and love) is not smooth flowing. It ebbs and flows. It pushes and pulls. It is the now and the past and the what we hope it will be.
Big picture:
What I appreciated about this novel was the way it explored the idea of identity. One may want to be someone other than who one is, to start fresh and put a difficult past behind, or to simply think there are parts of one's life that are inconsequential to who one is. It is rarely true. The truth is that each of us is blind to just how much we are a product of our experiences and if we don't allow those we love and who love us back to know all facets, then there will be frustration as 2 plus 2 keeps coming up as 5. Not to mention that the part of ourselves that we deny simply begins to eat us up from the inside.
Little things that distracted me:
I kept asking myself if I found the picture the author painted of the rural mid-west was realistic or not. Of course, this is complicated that I am a mid-westerner, but grew up in a metropolitan area. However the university I attended was in a rural area and I have friends from the area. (Remember the whole Herman bachelor phenomena of the mid-90's? I had friends who were those bachelors?)
That said, I felt the characterization of Seth's mother and step-father were believable. Seth's mom in particular is frightening similar in character and situation of the sister of an acquaintance of mine. And sadly, Seth's step-dad can be found everywhere, if you are willing to acknowledge it. Cassie felt real in the way she lost herself in books and chaffed against her life - up onto the point she arrives in New York and realizes Seth is gay and her reaction to that. First, anyone who reads as much as she does would be more worldly about homosexuality than she seemed to be. Second, people in small towns watch TV. They've seen Will & Grace, they've seen Willow and Tara fall in love, they've watched the French lesbians help save the day on Passions, etc. There may be a slightly stronger 'don't ask, don't tell' sense in small towns, but not utter foreignness. There is a long tradition of "bachelor" farmers or "old maids" living together for years and people can connect the dots. They just don't make a big deal about it. Back to point. What would have helped is if it had somehow been more clearly shown that for as much as Cassie sneered at her mother's messed up religious ideas, some of those ideas, even if Cassie intellectually knew they were messed up, influenced her worldview.
One last thing and then I'll get off my small town soap box. In chapter 12 there is this description about how "so many of the girls [Cassie] knew from high school who weren't destined for college did things to themselves." It goes on to describe that they get pregnant, then marry or are cutters or are bulimic or are alcoholic or get fat or are meth heads. That's true of some. A limited some. There are some who do want to live in that community and farm or whatever and marry and live lives with which they are happy. Lots don't want to live there and leave, whether it is for college or often community college or beautician's school or wherever. Most aren't actively held back by family who may miss them but understand their need to strike out and find their own place in the world. It is a well written description with this rhythm that captured me, but the content distracted me.
The thing is even for all my "but... but... but" about the portrayal of small town life, it is a limited portion of the story. It is told through the point of view of characters who have various reasons to not have a holistic, even handed view of small town life.
Little things that mattered so much:
Loved the offer of the glass of milk. So unexpected, particularly in the setting. Sorta like Seth himself.
The moment that gave me chills because it was one of those moments of extraordinary human kindness at what felt like such a key moment: When Mr. Hecklin, the guidance counselor, makes Seth an offer and shares a bit of himself and Seth accepts. It is interesting, in retrospect, realizing just was a turning point moment that conversation and offer really was in Seth's life.
The pretentious-colored glasses through which Jim viewed and understood small town life and the people living that life. Jim was so easy to love as a character and as much as it saddened me that he has this fault, it made him human to have such a fault.
A small thank you for the line one of the characters (Mr Hecklin? The cop?) which clarified it wasn't Christianity that was to blame for Seth's mother's read of what a good wife and mother does and ignores, but the particular dynamics of that church. (Yeah, I totally admit to being hypersensitive to how Christianity is portrayed. I'm not saying it needs to or should be portrayed as always being lightness and goodness, but too often it is lumped together as being purely those who have extreme views that I, too, find distasteful.)
The big reveal in the trailer. (Yes, I'm being vague as all get out. Don't want to ruin it.) It totally caught me by surprise, yet the moment of the reveal was an ah ha where a bunch of little details fell into place, giving me that "but of course" feeling. So a good reveal. The type where, maybe, if I had read this in slower chunks, gone back to a particular scene when I had a question later about one of the characters, I might have seen it coming. But probably not. But the clues were there that I could have. To me that's a good reveal. Not like the annoying reveals that ::cough::Dan Brown::cough:: does, where it is freaking impossible to have known who the villain was prior to the reveal because the clues sucked or didn't exist at all.
The use of present tense in part 6. It created a sense of skip-hop, push-pull in the narrative. Which to me, without giving away the ending, tells the reader as much about where the characters are in the end as does the words. Life (and love) is not smooth flowing. It ebbs and flows. It pushes and pulls. It is the now and the past and the what we hope it will be.
December 24, 2017
I really wanted to like this book, but there was so much melodrama that choked the life out of it. Shaprio could have written an interesting novel about a relationship between an older man and a younger one who come from different backgrounds and have had different life experiences. Instead, she wrote a soap opera filled with unrealistic dialogue, crazy plot twists (including someone being shoved in front of a subway car), and ridiculous nicknames (Honeyboy and Skeezix? Really?). I also think some of the criticism lobbed at Shapiro for writing in stereotypes is deserved. You have everything here: the older man with a heart of gold who mourns his lost lover and goes to the hospital to hold sick babies with names like LaKeesha, the helpful hag Hannah, the evil, narrow-minded Midwesterners, the catty queens (Billy and Clyde), and so on. It's all just too much which is really a shame since I liked Shapiro's writing. But she should get out of New York on occasion because she, like her Midwestern characters, has a narrow view of people who differ from herself.
September 29, 2011
I started to read NancyKay Shapiro's debut novel a couple years ago, got about 40 pages in and put it aside. I'm not really sure why I stopped, I just wasn't groovin' to the story. And I desperately wanted to like it. See, NancyKay Shapiro was something of a Big Fandom Name back in my days in a certain fandom (which shall not be named so I don't out her). She wrote a different pairing than I did and I didn't always agree with her characterization, but there was no question that she could turn a phrase.
In a way, What Love Means to You People is sort of like reading her fanfiction. The writing is smart and often quite beautiful, but I had serious problems with the characterizations of her three main characters: Jim, a widowed gay man in his early 40s; Seth, Jim's new beautiful, troubled, much younger lover and Cassie, Seth's sister who shows up and causes all sorts of trouble for the men.
Jim is a rich advertising guy. He's been single ever since the love of his life, Zak, died. One day, he meets Seth McKenna:
"Rippled nose with a slender ring in one nostril. Cheekbones and a clean jaw. Shorty bleached hair in trailing bangs, pointy sideburns. Silver rings climbing one earlobe, small, smaller, smallest. An appealing athletic body, too, in white chinos and a tank shirt. Quite nice, despite the trivializing modifications."
Jim is smitten. They have dinner. Seth tells a lie. Or two. Seth, it seems, has a past from which he has tried desperately to distance himself. It looks like none of it will matter, until his younger sister, Cassie, shows up with her small-minded attitudes about gay men and the key that opens the door to Seth's past.
There are lots of plot twists, relationships fractured and pieced back together. Lots of graphic gay sex, too, if that's your thing. I think Shapiro was aiming for a story that examines families, and how sometimes the ones we choose are better than the ones biology gives us but, ultimately, for me, What Love Means to You People wasn't really much more than a well-written soap opera, complete with stock characters and a neatly tied bow of an ending.
In a way, What Love Means to You People is sort of like reading her fanfiction. The writing is smart and often quite beautiful, but I had serious problems with the characterizations of her three main characters: Jim, a widowed gay man in his early 40s; Seth, Jim's new beautiful, troubled, much younger lover and Cassie, Seth's sister who shows up and causes all sorts of trouble for the men.
Jim is a rich advertising guy. He's been single ever since the love of his life, Zak, died. One day, he meets Seth McKenna:
"Rippled nose with a slender ring in one nostril. Cheekbones and a clean jaw. Shorty bleached hair in trailing bangs, pointy sideburns. Silver rings climbing one earlobe, small, smaller, smallest. An appealing athletic body, too, in white chinos and a tank shirt. Quite nice, despite the trivializing modifications."
Jim is smitten. They have dinner. Seth tells a lie. Or two. Seth, it seems, has a past from which he has tried desperately to distance himself. It looks like none of it will matter, until his younger sister, Cassie, shows up with her small-minded attitudes about gay men and the key that opens the door to Seth's past.
There are lots of plot twists, relationships fractured and pieced back together. Lots of graphic gay sex, too, if that's your thing. I think Shapiro was aiming for a story that examines families, and how sometimes the ones we choose are better than the ones biology gives us but, ultimately, for me, What Love Means to You People wasn't really much more than a well-written soap opera, complete with stock characters and a neatly tied bow of an ending.
December 14, 2021
Mas para vocês, o que é o amor? De Nancykay Shapiro
A história de dois homens. Gays. Que se apaixonam. Estas são as premissas do livro, mas tudo o resto é altamente potente…
Um livro que na minha opinião é para maiores de 18 anos devido às muitas descrições altamente descritivas… e algumas de violência extrema.
É a história de Seth um jovem, loiro e extravagante, ajudante num estúdio de fotografia profissional. E de Jim, um homem destroçado pela morte do seu anterior companheiro, que frequenta o estúdio por causa da sua agência.
Seth é também um jovem estudante de belas-artes e um pintor hábil. Ele sente-se atraído para Jim como uma borboleta para a luz. Aquele homem começa a preencher todos os seus pensamentos. E Seth vai rondando e tentando a sua sorte, apesar de não achar possível que um homem tão belo queira alguma coisa com ele.
Já Jim está ainda em processo de luto. Mas cada vez mais se começa a esquecer o cheiro, a voz, a textura da pele do falecido companheiro. Ao mesmo tempo que começa a fascinar-se por este jovem.
E o romance desenrola-se entre os dois. Mas o romance começa com premissas falsas da parte de Seth, que sente vergonha extrema do seu passado.
E depois há Cassie, irmã de Seth, que aparece sem avisar a Nova Iorque. E ameaça acabar com a felicidade de Seth.
É um livro poderoso e nele aconteceu algo que nunca me tinha acontecido. Gostar e ter empatia por uma personagem e posteriormente detestá-la profundamente. Tudo porque as atitudes que começa a ter são totalmente contrárias ao que eu defendo.
É uma história de amor. E como todos os amores verdadeiros nem tudo é um mar de rosas. Entre todas a mentiras e toda a violência esta é a história de um amor. Um amor que tem de resistir ao passado assombroso de um, e as inseguranças de outro. E também a uma mulher. Uma mulher nos limites da sua vontade, que faz tudo para adquirir a sua liberdade, ou a liberdade que pensa que merece. O livro é muito completo e sem dúvida um livro que não vou esquecer.
Sem dúvida um dos melhores livros do ano.
5 estrelas
#lereessencial
#membroclmaisqueler
#emal2021
#emalisgreen
A história de dois homens. Gays. Que se apaixonam. Estas são as premissas do livro, mas tudo o resto é altamente potente…
Um livro que na minha opinião é para maiores de 18 anos devido às muitas descrições altamente descritivas… e algumas de violência extrema.
É a história de Seth um jovem, loiro e extravagante, ajudante num estúdio de fotografia profissional. E de Jim, um homem destroçado pela morte do seu anterior companheiro, que frequenta o estúdio por causa da sua agência.
Seth é também um jovem estudante de belas-artes e um pintor hábil. Ele sente-se atraído para Jim como uma borboleta para a luz. Aquele homem começa a preencher todos os seus pensamentos. E Seth vai rondando e tentando a sua sorte, apesar de não achar possível que um homem tão belo queira alguma coisa com ele.
Já Jim está ainda em processo de luto. Mas cada vez mais se começa a esquecer o cheiro, a voz, a textura da pele do falecido companheiro. Ao mesmo tempo que começa a fascinar-se por este jovem.
E o romance desenrola-se entre os dois. Mas o romance começa com premissas falsas da parte de Seth, que sente vergonha extrema do seu passado.
E depois há Cassie, irmã de Seth, que aparece sem avisar a Nova Iorque. E ameaça acabar com a felicidade de Seth.
É um livro poderoso e nele aconteceu algo que nunca me tinha acontecido. Gostar e ter empatia por uma personagem e posteriormente detestá-la profundamente. Tudo porque as atitudes que começa a ter são totalmente contrárias ao que eu defendo.
É uma história de amor. E como todos os amores verdadeiros nem tudo é um mar de rosas. Entre todas a mentiras e toda a violência esta é a história de um amor. Um amor que tem de resistir ao passado assombroso de um, e as inseguranças de outro. E também a uma mulher. Uma mulher nos limites da sua vontade, que faz tudo para adquirir a sua liberdade, ou a liberdade que pensa que merece. O livro é muito completo e sem dúvida um livro que não vou esquecer.
Sem dúvida um dos melhores livros do ano.
5 estrelas
#lereessencial
#membroclmaisqueler
#emal2021
#emalisgreen
January 16, 2014
First of all, I really enjoyed this book. It's a real page turner, especially the second half. "Couldn't put it down". Literally couldn't wait to see what happened next, although I was a bit disappointed at what actually did happen next, which was a kind of boring bourgeois domesticity, but that's OK. What was supposed to happen next? Shapiro could have just ended the first half with "And they lived happily ever after", but then we would have all carped at that, So fine. She needed drama and she certainly created some. That's not my problem.
My problem is, broadly speaking, realism. Of course this book is not realistic in any way. It's a fairy tale, so you might ask why I am even raising the question. But the question of realism is nagging me because there is a part of it that does matter. It matters that Shapiro seems to suggest that a victim of truly horrific poverty and child abuse in Nebraska can show up five years later in Manhattan as a perfectly turned out, educated, articulate, beautiful and completely together and self-aware young gay man, who takes all the clichés of gay upward mobility and over-achieving faggotry to whole new levels, yet with no indication of how he did it. And who then of course falls totally apart after a trip back home that occasions two murders, after which he reveals his true traumatized state. The plot is supposed to be about how Seth lied to Jim about his background, but it must really be about how he lied to himself.
Well I ain't no psychologist nor am I an expert in child abuse, but I don't think this is how it works. No one can lie to himself this successfully. What is the message? If I were a victim of child abuse, would I take away the message that I am supposed to become flawless like Seth, and since no one is in reality, how would that make me feel?
Two days after finishing this book I am still thinking about it uneasily. I look forward to discussion at the book club tomorrow.
My problem is, broadly speaking, realism. Of course this book is not realistic in any way. It's a fairy tale, so you might ask why I am even raising the question. But the question of realism is nagging me because there is a part of it that does matter. It matters that Shapiro seems to suggest that a victim of truly horrific poverty and child abuse in Nebraska can show up five years later in Manhattan as a perfectly turned out, educated, articulate, beautiful and completely together and self-aware young gay man, who takes all the clichés of gay upward mobility and over-achieving faggotry to whole new levels, yet with no indication of how he did it. And who then of course falls totally apart after a trip back home that occasions two murders, after which he reveals his true traumatized state. The plot is supposed to be about how Seth lied to Jim about his background, but it must really be about how he lied to himself.
Well I ain't no psychologist nor am I an expert in child abuse, but I don't think this is how it works. No one can lie to himself this successfully. What is the message? If I were a victim of child abuse, would I take away the message that I am supposed to become flawless like Seth, and since no one is in reality, how would that make me feel?
Two days after finishing this book I am still thinking about it uneasily. I look forward to discussion at the book club tomorrow.
This entire review has been hidden because of spoilers.
October 17, 2008
Jim and Seth are very different men from each other, but each truly completes the other. This is a beautiful love story with lovely and good men in it. Among other things, Jim is nearly 20 years older than Seth, but the biggest difference is that Seth is keeping secrets, including from himself.
When the secrets threaten their relationship, themselves, how will they cope?
These are flawed, delightful rich characters with whom it was a pleasure to spend time. Highly recommended.
When the secrets threaten their relationship, themselves, how will they cope?
These are flawed, delightful rich characters with whom it was a pleasure to spend time. Highly recommended.
This entire review has been hidden because of spoilers.
December 21, 2013
Gostei muito.
Assistimos neste livro a um amor pungente e verdadeiro entre dois homens, Seth muito jovem e sofrido e Jim um quarentão que viveu uma relação plena e rica com um amigo de infância que acabou de uma forma muito trágica.
Assistimos neste livro a um amor pungente e verdadeiro entre dois homens, Seth muito jovem e sofrido e Jim um quarentão que viveu uma relação plena e rica com um amigo de infância que acabou de uma forma muito trágica.
May 4, 2008
B Really good at times, other times I got so fucking annoyed at the stupid sister and other things, it really detracted
November 17, 2010
Compelling and well-written story, with an ending that allows for complexities and grey areas. I approve.
March 24, 2011
great beginning and middle parts but the last third was just way too grand guignol - and that's saying a lot, coming from me :D
Read
December 23, 2015Unintentionally comical in its overwrought creepiness.
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