What We Talk About When We Talk About Love / Beginners

by Raymond Carver

A Vintage Shorts “Short Story Month” Selection • From one of the most celebrated short-story writers in American literature, the story that launched a thousand homages, in word and film—a haunting meditation on love and companionship, and finding one’s way through the dark.“What We Talk About When We Talk About Love” is included here with its unedited version, “Beginners,” which was originally submitted to Carver’s editor, Gordon Lish. In this eShort, readers can compare both versions of this iconic work of fiction, gaining insight into Carver’s aesthetic and the foundations of the contemporary American short story.

Genres: Short Stories, Classics, Fiction, Read For School, Romance, American

47 pages, Kindle Edition

First published May 14, 2015

About the author

Carver was born into a poverty-stricken family at the tail-end of the Depression. He married at 19, started a series of menial jobs and his own career of 'full-time drinking as a serious pursuit', a career that would eventually kill him. Constantly struggling to support his wife and family, Carver enrolled in a writing programme under author John Gardner in 1958. He saw this opportunity as a turning point.

Rejecting the more experimental fiction of the 60s and 70s, he pioneered a precisionist realism reinventing the American short story during the eighties, heading the line of so-called 'dirty realists' or 'K-mart realists'. Set in trailer parks and shopping malls, they are stories of banal lives that turn on a seemingly insignificant detail. Carver writes with meticulous economy, suddenly bringing a life into focus in a similar way to the paintings of Edward Hopper. As well as being a master of the short story, he was an accomplished poet publishing several highly acclaimed volumes.

After the 'line of demarcation' in Carver's life - 2 June 1977, the day he stopped drinking - his stories become increasingly more redemptive and expansive. Alcohol had eventually shattered his health, his work and his family - his first marriage effectively ending in 1978. He finally married his long-term parter Tess Gallagher (they met ten years earlier at a writers' conference in Dallas) in Reno, Nevada, less than two months before he eventually lost his fight with cancer.

Reviews

[Sue K H · Rating 5 out of 5]

I read this because I was brushing up on The Storied Life of A.J. Fikry for my book club. I read Fikry couple years ago, and even though I loved it, I didn't want to read the whole thing again because I'm not one to do that unless it's been many years. In reading each chapter heading and book notes in Fikry, this was one of them. When I realized it was also the story from the movie Birdman, I had to read this right away!

Beginners is the unedited first version of What We Talk About When We Talk About Love. It was interesting to read both. Overall the finished version is superior but I like them both a lot. The conversation is the kind of conversation any of us could have about what love really is. It's very well done

[Alex Linschoten · Rating 4 out of 5]

A glimpse of a conversation. Carver's style is difficult to put your finger on, but I very much enjoyed reading this. Will try to read other things he's written.

[Renee · Rating 4 out of 5]

I could hear my heart beating. I could hear everyone's heart. I could hear the human noise we sat
there making, not one of us moving, not even when the room went dark.

You get the real sense that none of these twice baked people know a thing about love. But does anyone?

Also a cardiologist =/= a heart surgeon, RC. Nice metaphor though.

[Prasad Deshmukh · Rating 2 out of 5]

A recent re-watch of Birdman made me pick up WWTAWWTAL. Two married couples, each on their renewed attempts at making it work, discussing about what it means to love someone- idiosyncratic ways in which people express their conviction and pining for the other one, and what it means to fall out of this feeling. Sounds like a great premise? Well despite building up to all the foreboding, this short fails to grow out of its setup. Infact a second reading of this made me wonder whether Carver was even going for a closure of any sorts. Left me with a very uneasy feeling- would love to know if anyone here has some other thoughts about this one.

[Nina · Rating 3 out of 5]

3.5⭐️

[Sylvia Joyce · Rating 5 out of 5]

I friggin LOVE Carver. I swear, that man was the master of achieving compelling human drama in the middle-class. It's also fun to say that I'm supporting local art through reading his work, his being a Sacramento native is a fun little detail.

[Darryl Suite · Rating 4 out of 5]

Two versions of the same story. 'What We Talk About When We Talk About Love'' is the one most people know as it was the official release, while 'Beginners' is the longer unedited original manuscript version.

Team 'What We Talk About When...'

Reasons: Firstly, the title is stunning. Second, the story and structure are more intimate. Third, the passages and mood are more subtle, which lends the story a romanticized element and an air of mystery. 'Beginners' felt less fresh. The trance was interrupted by unnecessary backstory and insights. Comparing the two really showcases the healing power of editing.

WWTAWWTAL is a 5-star story but I'm giving this book a 4-star because 'Beginners' (slightly) tarnished the luster.

[Jim Krotzman]

I like the way "Beginners" seems to be an earlier draft of "What We Talk About When We Talk About Love." I like the latter better.

[Ayshim · Rating 4 out of 5]

The afternoon sun was like a presence in this room, the spacious light of ease and generosity. We could have been anywhere, somewhere enchanted. We raised our glasses again and grinned at each other like children who had agreed on something forbidden.

Physical love, that impulse that drives you to someone special, as well as love of the other person’s being, his or her essence, as it were. Carnal love and, well, call it sentimental love, the day-to-day caring about the other person.

All this, all of this love we’re talking about, it would just be a memory. Maybe not even a memory.

“I was going to tell you about something. I mean, I was going to prove a point. You see, this happened a few months ago, but it’s still going on right now, and it ought to make us feel ashamed when we talk like we know what we’re talking about when we talk about love.”

They were in a bad way, believe me. And, of course, their age was two strikes against them.

I’m telling you, the man’s heart was breaking because he couldn’t turn his goddamn head and see his goddamn wife.

The light was draining out of the room, going back through the window where it had come from. Yet nobody made a move to get up from the table to turn on the overhead light.

I could hear my heart beating. I could hear everyone’s heart. I could hear the human noise we sat there making, not one of us moving, not even when the room went dark.

But it ought to make us all feel ashamed when we talk like we know what we were talking about, when we talk about love.

Sometimes you can hear the snow falling. If you’re quiet and your mind is clear and you’re at peace with yourself and all things, you can lay in the dark and hear it snow.

Anyway, we’d go to the dances every night. And then we’d go to bed under a lot of quilts and sleep warm until morning. When you woke up you could see your breath,’ he said.

The light seemed to be draining out of the room, going back through the window where it had come from in the first place.

I’ll tell you something, and I hate how soap opera a life can get, so it’s not even yours anymore, but this is how it was.

[Cold · Rating 3 out of 5]

I was curious to read because many academic papers take this title and replace "love" with whatever concept they believe to be misunderstood.

Reading versions in quick succession was interesting. Agree beginners is less subtle. Both versions were only OK. I appreciate Carver really captures the mood of the night, the conversation seems real, emotions run out of control etc. But my reaction was more in line with the narrator in Beginners towards the end. Emotions have fully spilled over (Mel in the bathroom after talking about depression, Mel's wife in tears etc) and the narrator is feeling woozy gazing out at the city at night.

Still it has that Paolo Coelho simplicity that means I'll probably remember the characters and their perspectives for years, even if the book was meh. Ffs.

[☆shriya☆ · Rating 5 out of 5]

I couldn't find a PDF of Beginners so I was only able to read WWTAWWTAL, but if someone knows where I can find Beginners online please tell me because I'm a teensy bit obsessed 🙏🏽 I love it when an author can talk a topic so simple (in this case two couples sitting and drinking while talking about love), and make it SO compelling. I almost feel like I'm sitting at the table with them. So good.

[Brian Skinner · Rating 5 out of 5]

This is a very well written story that is basically a discussion between them about what love is. There are a lot of things said that really make you think. I think I found some parts to be funny that were’t intended to be so.

[Joe · Rating 4 out of 5]

It made me think about what makes us love someone truly. And the many ways we broadcast it or don't but are still define by it through the relationships that we have with the subject. It's a good book to be still in.

[Amanda Ball · Rating 4 out of 5]

I honestly loved this short story! One of the AJ FIKRY stories & it touches on the fleeting and indescribable definitions of love. I’m actually really interested in Carvers writing after this & also pretty scared of what the next chapter of Fikry is gonna be!

[Simon Sweetman · Rating 5 out of 5]

Every time I read “What We Talk About” I come away with new favourite stories, and nothing but awe about the way they are stripped down and told. Just enough details every time, brutally, beautifully minimalist.

[Mangobaum · Rating 1 out of 5]

Послушала аудиокнигу, почувствовала ограничение в сюжете и персонажах, которые обсуждают любовь, насилие в отношениях, угрозы, самоубийство, историю пожилой пары, которые попали в аварию и то, что после окончания одних отношений, можно снова кого-то полюбить. Очень сумбурно, грязно и скучно.

[agnostic · Rating 3 out of 5]

Rating is for story as originally published, not unedited version.

[WillingHomework3 · Rating 4 out of 5]

same story presented with different narrative stratagies. like the first version, calm and precise, like hills like white elephant

[Antonio · Rating 5 out of 5]

This guy is a freaking genius of human emotion

[Rawan Ouda · Rating 1 out of 5]

what is the point really ???

[Alba Alonso · Rating 2 out of 5]

2'5*

[Jack Loughney · Rating 4 out of 5]

Pretty good

[A · Rating 4 out of 5]

THE LAST LINE.

[tourbe · Rating 3 out of 5]

Histoires courtes pour âmes en peine.

[Jenny · Rating 4 out of 5]

Η πρώτη μου επαφή με τη γραφή του Carver και η πρώτη φορά που διαβάζω δύο διαφορετικές εκδοχές του ίδιου διηγήματος, τη μια μετά την άλλη. Μου άρεσαν πολύ και θα αναζητήσω κάποια συλλογή του σίγουρα.

[Abdul Hadi · Rating 5 out of 5]

Versi bahasa Inggrisnya ternyata jauh lebih bisa dinikmati dari bahasa Indonesianya :(

[Paty]

no entendí nada

[Toraaki Villalpando · Rating 5 out of 5]

Fool of a me, bought this book thinking it was the whole collection.

[sbu_andrew · Rating 4 out of 5]

Catching up on some high school stuff. Read this blind and called a couple things in the backstory of the editing between the versions that made me feel good about my media literacy lol

[Gail · Rating 4 out of 5]

Maudlin. It gave me anxiety, which was not what I was expecting. I preferred elements of the unedited version “beginners” but I can see what the rationale was behind the revisions.