Innocent When You Dream: The Tom Waits Reader

by Tom Waits, Mac Montandon (Editor), Frank Black (Foreword by)

Over the past three decades, Tom Waits has achieved the kind of top-shelf cult status most artists only dream about. In his varied career, he has acted alongside Jack Nicholson, Meryl Streep, and Lily Tomlin; his songs have been covered by artists as diverse as Bruce Springsteen, Sarah McLachlan, the Eagles, and the Ramones; he's won two Grammys, a Golden Globe, and been nominated for an Oscar; he's coined unforgettable phrases like "better a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy" and "champagne for my real friends, real pain for my sham friends"; and he's made anyone who's ever listened to his music just that much cooler. Here is Tom Waits in all his mischievous splendor. From a New Yorker "Talk of the Town" in 1976 to an interview by Terry Gilliam in 1999; from album reviews by Luc Sante and David Fricke to conversations with Elvis Costello and Roberto Benigni; from a recent profile in GQ to "20 Questions" in Playboy and reviews of Waits's acclaimed new album, Real Gone, this is the must-have book for every fan of the artist Beck has described as a "luminary," and for music fans everywhere.

Genres: Music, Nonfiction, Biography, Essays, Biography Memoir, Rock N Roll, Classics

418 pages, Paperback

First published May 10, 2005

About the author

Thomas Alan Waits is an American singer-songwriter, composer, and actor. Waits has a distinctive voice, described by one critic as sounding "like it was soaked in a vat of bourbon, left hanging in the smokehouse for a few months and then taken outside and run over with a car." With this trademark growl, his incorporation of pre-rock styles such as blues, jazz, and Vaudeville, and experimental tendencies verging on industrial music, Waits has built up a distinctive musical persona. Waits has also worked as a composer for movies and musical plays and as a supporting actor in films, including The Fisher King, Bram Stoker's Dracula, and Short Cuts. He has been nominated for an Academy Award for his soundtrack work on One from the Heart.

Lyrically, Waits' songs are known for atmospheric portrayals of bizarre, seedy characters and places, although he has also shown a penchant for more conventional ballads. He has a cult following and has influenced subsequent songwriters, despite having little radio or music video support. His songs are best known to the general public in the form of cover versions by more visible artists — for example "Jersey Girl" performed by Bruce Springsteen, "Downtown Train" performed by Rod Stewart, and "Ol' '55" performed by the Eagles. Although Waits' albums have met with mixed commercial success in his native United States, they have occasionally achieved gold album sales status in other countries. He has been nominated for a number of major music awards, and has won Grammy Awards for two albums, Bone Machine and Mule Variations.

Reviews

[Juju · Rating 5 out of 5]

In the absence of an autobiography or a novel from ol' Tom A'Bedlam this book collects articles and interviews that span his career from Closing Time in '73 to Real Gone in '04. Far from being a collection of facts, this is a trip through Tom's World... maybe a trip down the stairs. Told by someone who is a story himself, it's like being kidnapped and taken onboard a pirate ship made from old 1950's cars and falling in with a crew who don't loot for gold,... they're looking for junk, old musical instruments, out of the way Cuban-Chinese restaurants, thrift store clothes and stories, mostly stories.

The interview with Jim Jarmuch is worth the price of admission alone.

[Andrei Alupului · Rating 3 out of 5]

If you like Tom Waits and you need something to read on the toilet, a book of interviews with Tom Waits is pretty okay for that.

[Marco · Rating 4 out of 5]

Bundle of interviews and dialogues with Tom Waits. Took some time to finish because the texts contain much of the same information. Also the interviewers all try to catch the Waitsian world. Not all succeed. Luckely there are always the unsurpassed answers and twists of Tom Waits to laugh or to think about. The book provides good insides as to the how and why of the choices Waits makes regarding his music. You read the self cultivated cult status of this multi talent (singer songwriter, actor in film and on stage, writer of plays) throughout the whole book. And if you listen to his music while reading and pour yourself a whisky, you have wonderfull evenings to spend with this book.

[York · Rating 5 out of 5]

Uy! Este libro me lo encontré en mi primer visita al Sótano de Guadalajara, y cuando lo vi me le lancé encima como si todos en la librerías estuvieran dispuestos a matar por él.

Pues yo sí!

Después de Bob Dylan... Tom Waits es uno de los músicos que más admiro... Annie lo definió lindo el otro día: Waits es un genio intensamente desgarrador.

Y me moría de curiosidad por saber de dónde demonios salió este tipo.

Hay muchas entrevistas, algunas crónicas donde se asoman de forma cotidiana los destellos de su genialidad. La historia sobre Hold On y Take it Me valen todo el bendito libro. Dejé de dormir por leer esto y fue una de las lecturas más felices que he tenido en mi vida.

Por más mamón que suene: Creo que Tom Waits es el San Pedro en ese olimpo de genios musicales.

[Andy · Rating 5 out of 5]

There are three phases of Tom Waits career: in the Seventies he was the Hollywood hipster-beatnik of Asylum Records fame, in the Eighties he was the junkyard dog of hobo blues, and in the Nineties and thereafter he was the carnival barker/German cabaret ringmaster of dense sounds.
The best part of the book is where it goes far beneath the layer of Waits' tall tales and exposes his lonely childhood in search of a surrogate father after losing his at age 11. The segments where he discusses his wife Kathleen are equally touching.
This collection of articles and interviews captures every phase of his wild years equally. I have to confess after I read this I went out and bought Blood Money and Bad As Me, so if you don't think music bios are the best advertising, well think again.

[Jade Lopert · Rating 4 out of 5]

Warning: The following review is written by a huge Tom Waits fan, so that colors everything.
The Tom Waits mythos is huge. Part of the sheer size of it has everything to do with the man himself. He has a flair for story telling, not only in his songs, but also in telling his personal history. Waits is very content to spin stories to make sure that people don't know too much about him.
Innocent When You Dream is a collection of interviews and reviews of albums and shows from the beginning of his career to the late 90's/early 00's. Here we see the man vacillate between being charming and curmudgeon-y. We see the tales sprinkled with just enough truth to keep everyone guessing. It's fascinating when it isn't a bit repetitive. Unfortunately interviews that are close in time to each other end up sharing much of the same quotes and tidbits. It's the nature of the thing, but it does make it occasionally feel like you're suffering from a bit of deja vu. Even with that, though, this is pretty much a must read for any fan. Even if you're not a fan, a peek into his brain and his process is a fascinating thing.
But mostly you're only going to be interested if you're a fan.

[Ville Verkkapuro · Rating 3 out of 5]

An entertaining and half-satisfying biography of Tom Waits, based on his interviews. He is an interesting character, half-fiction and half-true, building himself from a dream image of a drifter, drunk poet, hobo visionary. And then actually becoming one. But he has accomplished that, he truly is a one of a kind. But there's a sense of building this character. I'm not sure if that's good or not. But I really love this man's music, humour, singing voice. I'm not sure if I'm really that interested in his life. And this didn't help very much as it was more focused on the music and the character, which is a construction.

[Jasmine Maia · Rating 4 out of 5]

reading a tonne of interviews with the same guy could get very boring if it wasn't for tom waits' love of lying and telling interviewers random fun facts he's collected.

[Cheryl · Rating 5 out of 5]

A collection of interviews, articles, reviews, and such. Interesting looks into one of my favorite musicians and poet. A lot of repetition, is to be expected when it is a collection of such. But still, I got a lot of information out of it.

[Hannah Eiseman-Renyard · Rating 4 out of 5]

Musical one-off and self-styled blues hobo Tom Waits shoots the breeze

Chances are if you're willing to pick up and read this book, you already love Tom Waits, and are curious enough about his persona to want to learn more. To know more fully about the man who evokes a subterranean bohemia with songs such as ‘The Piano Has Been Drinking (not me)’ and ‘Bad Liver and a Broken Heart.’ However, given that Waits has compared speaking to the press as ‘a bit like talking to a cop’ – it’s perhaps no great surprise that the autobiographical details are a little thin on the ground.

This book features pieces from CREEM, Rolling Stone, The New Yorker, NME, Playboy, GQ, and The Onion to name but a few. The collection does two parallel things: on the one hand it charts the career of a pretty amazing musician, on the other hand - it sells the idea of Tom Waits - a slice of Americanski which the waitress probably dropped on the diner floor but still served it up, anyway.

Most of the articles begin with the palpable glee of the journalist rubbing their eager little hands together, trying to work out where to start describing this man. One writer in this collection described trying to keep up with Waits in conversation as like trying to go for a walk with someone who happens to be evading assassins. Most of the pieces end with the audience only a fraction wiser about what actually makes the man tick, but with some pretty unlikely images, interesting facts and brilliant witticisms wandering around their minds instead. "People who can't cope with drugs turn to reality," "Fire is just the sun unwinding itself from the wood," "She's a diamond in the rough that wants to stay coal," - to name but three which have stuck with me.

By the end of this book, having read various interviews spanning thirty years - the only thing you have to go on to work out if any given story is true or not is the frequency with which Waits tells the story. Was he born in a taxicab? Has he met the Marlboro Man’s mother? Does he actually know all the regulars of the latest dive he's invited the interviewer to? It’s impossible to tell what’s invented and what’s real, but what you miss in concrete fact is amply made up for in Waits’ enthusiasm, wit and oddball take on the world. Describing the world as he sees it: scenes of smokey bars, petty crooks, ‘warm beer and cold women.’

Waits is by turns tragic, dazzling, hilarious and often oddly tender - the beatnik spirit of Burroughs and Kerouac reborn, and still snarling at suburbia. The writers gathered for this collection are pretty damn good too - and there's a very interesting key change when the interviewer is someone like Jim Jarmusch who Waits has frequently worked with.

The only downside I'd say to this book is that my attention seriously started to flag about two thirds in. It's a lot of interviews going over the same territory - and even with a Class-A Bullshitter like Waits to navigate around the journalists' questions - it's inevitably going to drag at some point.

What Waits lets journalists in on is more of a character concept, and he does his best to keep him away from all nameable homelife facts such as anything about his wife, kids, where he lives - or even where he's been in the seven year gap since his last album ("traffic school.") That said, his character concept of the mad old blues hobo is pretty incredible, and well worth reading about.

Some absolute Beat beauts (if a little repetitive.) Welcome to his world. It won't take you anywhere, but it's worth the ride.

[Konstantinos Mindcrimek · Rating 4 out of 5]

"Writing songs is like capturing birds without killing them"

Tom Waits, πνευματώδης ανεκδοτολόγος, αντισυμβατικός παραμυθάς, η περσόνα του μεθυσμένου απόκληρου που ψάχνει στα σκουπίδια ή στη μπάρα ενός παρακμιακού εστιατορίου. Νιώθω τυχερός που ακούω τους δίσκους του εδώ και δεκαετίες και απολαμβάνω τις ιστορίες για περιθωριακούς και αταίριαστους, άλλωστε όπως είπε κάποιος, ο Tom Waits είναι ένας βάρδος που διαβάζει τις ρυτίδες στα πρόσωπα των ανθρώπων.

Το βιβλίο (σε μετάφραση του Αλέξη Καλοφωλια) είναι μια συλλογή κειμένων από δεκάδες ανθρώπους που τον είδαν σε μια συναυλία, άκουσαν ένα άλμπουμ του ή του πήραν μια συνέντευξη (με τον ίδιο να δίνει τις χαρακτηριστικές ότι ναναι απαντήσεις). Τελικά σκιαγραφείται ωραία ο κόσμος του Waits και ας μην μαθαίνουμε κάτι που δεν ξέραμε ήδη. Δεν είναι το καλύτερο μουσικό βιβλίο αλλά μυρίζει καπνό και μπέρμπον και αυτό είναι από μόνο του σημαντικό.

Τα καλύτερα σημεία είναι οι κουβέντες με Elvis Costello και Jim Jarmusch ενώ στα αρνητικά θα έβαζα τη μετάφραση των στίχων στο παράρτημα χωρίς την παράθεση τους original στίχων.

[Ruth Smith · Rating 4 out of 5]

Tom Waits would be America’s Springsteen, if America were a strange dispossessed land of circus freaks. No one knows him at the guitar factory, but everyone knows him at the dump. Bukowski’s ‘Nirvana’, towards the end of this collection, sums Waits up well; many don’t notice the magic. He’s a musical Rorschach test and the guy playing the piano in the corner you can’t quite see in Edward Hopper’s Nighthawks.

This book is a fascinating glimpse into the life of a man notoriously reticent about his own personal life. It provides a comprehensive rundown of Waits' career, predominantly narrated in his distinct and eccentric style, often bordering on the surreal. It will be interesting to see if a similar, more up to date collection of interviews will be published, following the release of 2011’s Bad as Me, or, with any luck, any newer releases. But who knows. I’ve heard Tom’s in traffic school.

[RandomAnthony · Rating 3 out of 5]

Can the author of this book really be called an author? He just gathers all the articles and interviews he can find associated with Mr. Waits and puts them in a book. Oh well, I thank him for his efforts anyway. The interviews are better than the articles...too often people describing Tom Waits try to SOUND like Tom Waits, and they can't pull it off. Put the microphone in front of Mr. Waits and keep your mouth shut and you've got all the story you need. Fun to read.

[Mac · Rating 4 out of 5]

It’s difficult to write a review of a book that is a compilation of interviews conducted by dozens of different people over thirty years. What exactly would you be reviewing? The average enjoyability of all the interviews? Or the discernment of the editor who picked which interviews to include?

Overall, I loved this book. Most of the interviews are mostly entertaining and paint an intriguing and entertaining (if dubiously accurate) portrait of Tom Waits, who is famous for “telling all his secrets but lying about his past.”

The weak points for me personally were the pieces that were conversations rather than interviews, like the conversation between Tom Waits and Elvis Costello. Perhaps if I cared about the other halves of those conversations half as much as I care about Tom Waits, I would feel differently.

I really hate Mac Montandan for including Bukowski poems in the collection. The Bukowski pieces are the primary reason I’m giving this book four stars instead of five. The pieces are included ostensibly because Tom Waits really likes them, but Tom Waits also claims to really like O. Henry so why not include an O. Henry short story in the mix? Bukowski’s poetry is terrible, and the poems don’t fit with the rest of the pieces.

If you, like me, love the bits of Tom Waits’s live recordings where he’s just shooting the breeze, telling weird stories and jokes, riffing about absolute nonsense, you’ll love this book.

[Ηφαιστίων Χριστόπουλος]

Δεν είμαι σε θέση να κρίνω τον Tom Waits. Πρόκειται πιθανότατα για τον αγαπημένο μου καλλιτέχνη όλων των εποχών.

Αν γενικά είστε γνώστες, δεν θα μάθετε πολλά που να μη γνωρίζατε από πριν. Το βιβλίο αποτελείται κατά κύριο λόγο από συνεντεύξεις, και έχει μεγάλη πλάκα να ακούς στο μυαλό σου τη χαρακτηριστική φωνή του καθώς παραμυθιάζει τους δημοσιογράφους και τους αραδιάζει απίθανες ιστορίες.

Λίγα λόγια όμως για την ελληνική έκδοση. Οι προθέσεις είναι οι καλύτερες, δυστυχώς όμως η εικόνα του βιβλίου είναι πολύ προβληματική, τόσο από πλευράς διόρθωσης όσο και από πλευράς μετάφρασης (αγαπητέ, δεν έχετε ακούσει για τα collective nouns στα αγγλικά; Και ακόμη κι αν δεν έχετε ξαναδεί το school of fish, δεν αισθανθήκατε ότι κάτι δεν πάει καλά στη φράση «μια σχολή πετρόχελων»;).

Όσο για τους μεταφρασμένους στίχους προς το τέλος... Δυστυχώς κάποια πράγματα δεν μεταφράζονται, και τα τραγούδια του Γουέιτς είναι ένα από αυτά. Ας τα αφήνατε στα αγγλικά, όπως ορθώς πράξατε με την εισαγωγή του ιδίου, ή ας παραθέτατε τουλάχιστον και το πρωτότυπο.

Όπως και να 'χει, για τους φαν είναι καλή ευκαιρία για ψυχαχωγία, ας μην περιμένουν όμως να μάθουν τίποτα τρομερά μυστικά.

[Tom McInnes · Rating 3 out of 5]

Tom Waits is a man who has cultivated and retained a consistent false identity for almost 50 years, which makes him something of an odd choice for a 400-page book of collected interviews. The same practiced lies and one-liners spun over and over, ever-evading the same questions in the same way, moving through the decades and never changing tact... it makes for a kind of lulling reading experience that, while not particularly illuminating, does become strangely comforting, like visiting an old relative who tells the same well-worn stories but can still, from time to time, jolt you to attention with a sudden maniacal laugh.

[lonner · Rating 4 out of 5]

Not really a biography. Definitely not a memoir. It's a pretty mixed collection of articles, interviews, press releases, etc. over two decades from one of rock/folk musics strangest and most iconic performers. Because Tom Waits is constantly misdirecting, obfuscating, and actually making shit up, it is difficult for even a major fan of his music to really get any new insight him or his songs. I felt the best sections were after his marriage to Kathleen Brennan. Not recommended for anyone who is not already a fan, or at least aware of his work.

[Justin Dargan · Rating 3 out of 5]

This ruled, but it was more of a bunch of interviews cobbled together than a"book" proper, so pretty frequently you’d get rehashed questions/answers.

Basically that's my way of saying, don't let my 3 star review dissuade any Waits fans from reading this. For that demographic, l'd consider this essential reading.
Kathleen Brennan is one of the most brilliant, underrated artists ever, and I'm glad this book makes that clear.

I wish I could see him live, but respect his choice to step away from that whole thing.

[Konstantinos · Rating 5 out of 5]

Ή αλλιώς διαφορα κομμάτια της βιογραφίας του μυστηριώδους και εκκεντρικού αυτού καλλιτέχνη που εκτυλίσσονται μέσα από άρθα ή συζητήσεις του με διάφορους καλλιτέχνες και δημοσιογράφους σε εκπομπές, καφέ κλπ έτσι όπως θέλει ο ίδιος να μαθευτούν μέσα από τη δική του επιβάλλουσα μυθοπλασία...
Αν ήταν έτσι, τόσο εναλλακτικά δοσμένες οι βιογραφίες, σίγουρα θα είχα διαβάσει πολλές, όμως εδώ μιλάμε και για έναν ενδιαφέρον άνθρωπο, πέρα από λατρεμένο καλλιτέχνη!!

[Robert Craven · Rating 5 out of 5]

Waits doesn't have an official biography, so this book of collected interviews from 1974 - 2004 sheds light on this incredible musician / poet and actor. Yes, he has the beatnik vibe of Kerouac and Bukowski down pat but is articulate about his creative process.

This is a book you dip in and out of forever and perhaps like a pool of water, Waits refracts just beneath the surface never truly revealing him self as the artist.

a great read

[Herzog · Rating 3 out of 5]

This is now dated (the last article from 2004) and repetitious. Anthologies like this don't usually work for me. Mostly it's Tom spinning his yarns with a couple of insightful reviews. Put down this book, put on Real Gone.

[ShoshaTheTarnegolet · Rating 4 out of 5]

одна из любимых

[Jacob · Rating 5 out of 5]

If you're read one interview with Tom Waits you know you need to read them all. This will give you a toe up.

[Craig · Rating 5 out of 5]

Come on in, this ride, redolent, cigarette ghosts and whisky swimmings, abide in all the squaks as carnival jackanapes sway and this grand waltz dances fantastic.

[Kiko · Rating 4 out of 5]

Me encuentro, sin considerarme ni mucho menos un seguidor de Tom Waits, leyendo con ávido placer este elegante Conversaciones, entrevistas y opiniones (Global Rhythm, 2007), que incluye un prólogo del orondo Frank Black (Pixies) y ha sido traducido al castellano por Ignacio Juliá (codirector de la revista Ruta 66). Estructurado en tres bloques principales, Mac Montandon ha reunido diferentes textos publicados en multitud de medios mundiales –la representación española recae sobre El País de las tentaciones- desde los años setenta y hasta el lanzamiento de Real gone (Anti, 2004).

En ellos se intenta profundizar en la figura de Waits a través de críticas de discos, charlas en lugares descuajaringados o crónicas llenas de pianos borrachos –él no- e instrumentos imaginados –su segunda y más extensa parte-. Cada autor intenta, a su manera, un acercamiento a su obra, al aspecto de su voz colmada de bourbon o a la misteriosa figura de Kathleen Brennan, su esposa, quien posee “las cuatro virtudes: belleza, brillantez, valentía y cerebro”, y a la que podemos tachar de culpable del giro estilístico y vital de Waits tras Swordfishtrombones (Island, 1983).

También hay palabras para su faceta cinematográfica, conversaciones con Jim Jarmusch y Elvis Costello, constantes referencias a sus autores favoritos, como Jack Kerouac o Charles Bukowski –cuyo poema Nirvana sirve para cerrar esta antología-, y una ristra importante de frases para el recuerdo más allá de las que podemos encontrar en sus temas. Canciones que sirvieron para que la revista Rolling Stone lo retratara hace unos años como “el cronista de los grotescos perdedores del submundo sórdido”, y algún iluminado sentenciara que Waits “sería el Springsteen de Estados Unidos si ésta fuera una tierra desahuciada y extraña llena de monstruos de circo”.

[Philip Costea · Rating 3 out of 5]

I can't remember the first time I heard Tom, but I remember when I first heard him I thought, "Man, this guy's wild!" and since then I haven't heard or seen of anyone as creative or interesting. Assorted descriptions of his voice are as follows: gravelly, raspy, whiskey-warped, sounds like he was born old, born smoking, a cherry bomb and a clown...a voice found at the bottom of an ashtray.
This book is a collection of interviews, reviews, and there's a bit too much repetition in questions and answers (almost as if some of these journalists were very repetitive in their questions or Tom just wised up and answered the same way). Starts with some "ok" writing about the beginning of his career, but there's not enough substance until you get to Robert Wilonsky's piece and Elizabeth Gilbert's interview. Wilonsky knows what he's talking about and it's creative and accurate. Gilbert approaches him from a much more tender, and personal place. Either way, I recommend this for fans just like me. I need to listen to him when I feel the need to be creative in anything I'm doing at the moment. True poet!

[adder_r · Rating 5 out of 5]

THE VOICE OF TOM WAITS

A scabrous rasp,
like shattering glass,
bumping-along-the-bottom voice
that haunted million hangovers.

A voice found in an ashtray,
clattering from an unkempt, gravel throat,
a rough grit of sandpaper,
a barking dog at best.

Lupine howl and frogman croak,
a worn-out shoe of a voice
that sounds like he was born old,
born smoking.

A devil-horned carnival barker,
three-pack-a-day Romeo wheezing,
that yelps and screams and croons
and pleads and threatens.

Clashing vocal overtones surrounding a note,
the way a clot forms around a gash
from the shock of first hearing it.

Heartsick, lonely and confiding,
gravelly, raspy, and whisky-warped,
tender, melancholy, and in love.

Tom Waits has a voice
that could guide ships through dense fog.

PERSONAL NOTE
I read this book in a movie-themed hotel room in San Francisco. I had the window open and listened to the clumps of ripe hobos partying outside in the heatwave. I was drinking white wine and eating turkey jerky in my pants. Ah, conference life.

[Carol · Rating 3 out of 5]

This book is an anthology of articles and interviews spanning Tom Waits' career up until about2004, when Real Gone was released. I am a huge fan of Tom Waits, so I really enjoyed this book. Montandon did a good job of choosing material; many of the articles offered good insights and the interviews gave an entertaining and informative impression of Waits' character and personality. Although there was some good information about Waits' music-making and artistic themes, the majority of the material was written for general interest publications, so there is not a lot of in-depth analysis. There was also the slight failing of a lot of repetition; this, however, is more a pitfall of the type of book this is rather than a fault of the editor or featured writers.

[Mariana · Rating 3 out of 5]

I would love, love, love it if Tom wrote some kind of autobiography or something, but as that is extremely unlikely I have to make do with reading other people's, usually journalists', descriptions (the ubiquitous gravelly-voiced, dressed as a hobo description in almost every opening paragraph started to grate after a while). This means battling with writing styles and egos that cannot match the man himself. A few of the articles were really enjoyable, one in particular for GQ by Elizabeth Gilbert stood out for me, some of them were repetitive and banal and some of them just didn't seem to tie in at all with the picture I have created by listening obsessively to his music over the years.
Interesting overall. 3.5 stars.

[Gusmenary · Rating 3 out of 5]

Y'know when you really want to be someone really really bad, but you know that your existence is probably much more enjoyable and that by choosing to be them you'd be shortening your life by at the very least, like, thirty years so you sort of downgrade yourself to wanting to be best friends with them, but not like ordinary best friends but more like brothers that share all their awesome secrets and have some sort of twin language, but then you realize that your age difference and complete lack of anything in common will probably negate that but you don't care cause I WILL SOMEDAY BE TOM WAITS. It's kinda like that.