Us versus Us: The Untold Story of Religion and the LGBT Community

by Andrew Marin

Would you believe that 86 percent of LGBT people―from the proud marcher at the Pride Parade to the quiet, closeted teen―spent their childhood in church? More than half of them left those religious communities as adults; three out of four would be happy to come back.

For decades now we have found our-selves caught up in a culture us versus them. Good there is no them. Our culture war has been a civil Us versus Us . And there is a path toward meaningful peace.

Andrew Marin brings the startling findings of his largest-ever scientific survey of the religious history, practices, and beliefs of the LGBT community. Marin's findings offer clear direction for both sides of a long cultural battle to meet in the middle, sacrificing neither conviction nor integrity as they rediscover the things they have in common and the hope found in Christ alone.

Original, groundbreaking research into the religious lives and beliefs of the LGBT community.

Genres: LGBT, Nonfiction, Christian, Sexuality, Theology, Faith, Christianity

240 pages, Paperback

Published June 1, 2016

About the author

While working towards a doctorate degree at Moody Graduate School, Andrew P. Marin, founded The Marin Foundation a non-profit organization that seeks to build bridges between the gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender (GLBT) and religious communities. He and his wife, Brenda, live in the Boystown neighborhood of Chicago.

Reviews

[Kat · Rating 2 out of 5]

As someone with little religious inclination, this book didn't speak to me. The author's desire for reconciliation between the two communities and neutrality in the discussion too often led to a simple fact being overlooked: the two parties are not equal. One party is the oppressor and the other the oppressed. It is why Marin's "I'm sorry" campaign worked so well and why this book does not.

[Brian · Rating 5 out of 5]

I've take a break from reading books on the whole topic of faith and sexuality for a couple years because I overdosed on it for too long, but I was doing a rare speaking engagement on the topic and wanted to check a quote I half remembered from Marin from years ago. I decided to buy the Kindle edition of the book and power read the book in only a couple hours. Marin is a complex figure in the ongoing Christian debate on homosexuality, his determination to not take sides makes him distrusted by both conservative christians and the lgbt community. He comes across as humbler in this book than his last one, and this book really shines when it is focusing not on Andrew and his stories but on the research. From what I can tell Marin has done credible research in communities that are notoriously difficult to get useful sample sizes and unbiased data from. I appreciate his ability to get two researchers as opposite as Bailey and Yarehouse to check his data and agree on it's validity (if not I imagine always his interpretation of it and ideas on how the church should react). Marin's insights into the Spiritual lives of the LGBT community and particularly the information that found significantly more LGBT people grew up in the church than the average american population is important. I highly recommend reading this book to anyone navigating the questions of the church's response to the lgbt community.

[Alicia Snyder · Rating 5 out of 5]

Read this as the high-quality research it is. You (like me) may not agree with every conclusion that the researcher makes. But the research is excellent and the practical suggestions are convicting.

Raised in a religious community weekly from 0-18
• 86% of LGBT people
• 75% of general American population

Leaving a religious community after the age of 18
• 27% of general American population
• 54% LGBT community

Open to returning to religious community (church)
• 9% General American population
• 76% LGBT community

More facts:

• LGBT people pray more often and more diligently than the American population in general
• Even LGBT atheists pray regularly
• Praying the Scriptures together with people you disagree with, especially LGBT, can be a way to bring others with you to God—the only one who can heal, save, forgive, and change.

[Luke Southard · Rating 3 out of 5]

This is a book that has fantastic statistics about the LGBT community reconciling with religion and religious organizations and it is very, very interesting.

There are a lot of things that religious people/religious leaders can take heart from within the book like the fact that so many LGBT people came from religious households (86%), which would mitigate the learning curve should they come back. Or the fact that a lot of them still pray - even LGBT folks that identify as atheist. Or the fact that the OVERWHELMING majority of surveyed people WANT to come to back to their religious homes.

Religious people should be stoked about all of this.

Alas, there's still a culture war going on between the two camps with one side pointing to more than a few instances of discrimination like not being allowed to volunteer or even pulled aside by religious leaders and asked incredulously "you know we don't support homosexuality or gay marriage, right?" while the other side points to the LGBT narrative that nothing but heartache awaits people who go back to their churches.

What's weird to me is that the religious organizations aren't looking at the LGBT narrative and saying "we should probably work on that," but rather pointing to that and saying "see? We're being discriminated against, too!"

And this is where I jump off from any sort of argument because the religious organizations aren't saying anything that holds water.

Say there's a Christian God and He's so important and powerful that I have to use a capital "H." I spent a lot of time in an EXTREMELY conservative Baptist church that would often preach that the only thing God couldn't do was make a rock He couldn't lift and a problem He couldn't solve. That everything that has ever and will ever happen is all according to His divine plan.

If this is the case, wouldn't God be able to change hearts as needed? SHOULDN'T parishioners acknowledge God's strength and let Him do as He wills? Why this sudden shift in tone when the topic of sexuality specifically comes up? I don't know about God, but I'd be insulted if my friends insisted all the time that I'm the strongest guy in the world and then insisted on bringing in my mail because I'm so frail that I need their help with this one thing that I should be able to easily do.

I think the more likely thing is that theologically conservative churches aren't looking at this as an opportunity to showcase God's love by being the best Christians they can in a demonstrative way but rather an opportunity to flex their muscles as a type of morality police.

And, again, it's just about this one thing. I went to church for years - YEARS and a lot of those years, three times a week - and never attended a single sermon about how God doesn't want you to get tattoos and, if you have them, you should be ashamed of yourself for violating the word of God so baldly. Not once.

But gay stuff? Oh man, that was talked about pretty often.

It really sucks because what I've seen is a sacrifice of potential believers and followers of God to gain the so-called moral high ground of being right that gay stuff is icky.

I don't know. I always find myself asking "what do you want?" If theologically conservative parishioners wanted more people to believe and follow God, the obvious path is to entice them in with love and kindness and let God - that supposedly all-powerful omnipotent being they're always talking about - do His thing. But instead, they're acting as a gatekeeper, looking over their shoulders at a God that is almost certainly disappointed in them and saying "don't worry, Bud, I kept that one out. They were unworthy."

Honestly, I can't imagine the God that I was raised hearing stories about not raising an eyebrow and asking "who the fuck do you think you are?" to these people.

But there's an additional thing that the book glances by - a real hit-and-run statement that I think deserves a smidge more attention:

He brings up the fight between the Catholics and Protestants in Ireland and quotes someone as saying that when the fighting is over, reconciliation will begin and it won't be pleasant.

Reconciliation is more than shaking hands and saying "truce." It's admitting your own wrong-doing and atoning accordingly. So, similar to how Kierkegaard says that people who party never want to stop for fear of facing the ever-rising costs of their pleasures, people embroiled in a long fight - particularly a culture war like this - would rather keep fighting for fear that when they stop they would have to fess up to the damage they've done.

So what do you want? If you're religious (the book mostly focuses on Christianity because most of the LGBT experiences in America are based on Christianity and Christians), you should read this book, and take heart in the fact that so very many LGBT people want to go back to church and follow the same God you do and if THAT'S the goal, you should reframe your position and be a more supportive parishioner because you're obviously not doing a good job. 96% of LGBT people have prayed at least once to make them straight (to an overwhelming disappointment).

Just think about that for a second. If the environment that you're a part of makes NINETY-SIX PERCENT of people pray to be someone else so to better fit in with the narrative that your environment has been pushing, what kind of an environment have you really made?

96%. Jesus Christ. And this is just praying - this isn't even touching the amount of LGBT youth and adults that have committed suicide because they felt so ostracized from their families, friends, faith, and environment.

I'm not saying you have to change your opinion on LGBT matters or anything. All I'm saying if you want more people to follow your God, then maybe acting like a gatekeeper isn't the best idea. Maybe instead of being a gatekeeper, you can be the old welcomer at Walmart and make them feel comfortable in your house of worship and have a little faith that your God is going to work in some hearts and minds.

Or you could keep ostracizing people and looking around, flabbergasted at declining church attendance and an increasing hostility toward organized religion. While I would argue that this sounds bad, it also puts the church in a defensive position where they can claim to be victims, thereby justifying whatever revenge and retribution they want to commit.

It's really just a matter of asking what it is you want.

[Steven H · Rating 5 out of 5]

THE RESULTS OF A SURVEY OF LGBT PERSONS ABOUT RELIGION

Author Andrew Marin (who describes himself as “a white, cisgender male… [who doesn’t] know what it’s like to be a part of a minority population that is received by the majority church culture with hesitation, if at all”; pg. 21) wrote in the Introduction to this 2016 book, “To witness what the Lord was doing through our little neighborhood’s I’m Sorry Campaign was almost beyond belief. Christians and gay people hugging. Christians telling gay people ‘I’m sorry.’ These pictures have become symbols for hope that the LGBT community and people of faith can come together in an embrace---even as the rest of the world banters on about how such an embrace can never happen. Love can still heal wounds. Love can still conquer hate. Love can still change the world. Even today.” (Pg. xii-xiii)

He continues, “Rabbi Jonathan Sacks suggests that in the midst of severe clashes of culture, ideology, and religion, we can still experience unity, even in disagreement. We achieve this unity by committing ourselves to learning from each other, by developing a theology of commonality alongside a theology of differences. These themes are at the heart of the research study behind this book, the largest ever done in the North American LGBT community regarding the intersection of religious beliefs, faith practices, and sexual orientation. In statistics and stories revealed for the first time, ‘[this book] provides direct scientific insight into the culture war defining a generation… our data suggests that when it comes to faith communities and the LGBT community, they are us, and we are them… the research behind [this book] reveals that there is still nuance in the world… I point from the research data to their implications for how the LGBT and religious communities can engage one another more hopefully and constructively. I see the intersection of these two communities as a point of connection, not a point of divide.” (Pg. xiii-xv)

He clarifies, “the scope of this study is limited to the religious beliefs and experiences of LGBT Americans. The data can’t address every question arising from the LGBT-religion disconnect… I will do my best, however, to be as thorough, generous, and practical as I can with what the data allow… I hope this research … provides … a way that discovers both commonality and the dignity of difference where pain and misunderstanding have for too long been the dominant narrative.” (Pg. xxiii)

He adds, “There are a number of reasons people might read [this book]. Parents may want to better understand their LGBT children. Gay Christians may want to compare their experiences against others in the LGBT community. Clergy may be looking for insight into how they can enter the LGBT-faith conversation… My prayer is that [the book] helps us all approach this conversation more intelligently and more respectfully… that we might be reconciled to each other through his love.” (Pg. xxvi)

Before beginning the study, he made four “original, non-scientific observations: 1. Most LGBT people [86%] regularly attended a faith community for the majority of their youth. 2. Most had left the church after they came out. 3. Most still believed in God and were interested in one day finding a faith community. 4. Most were less concerned with a church’s theology of homosexuality than they were with how they were treated by individual Christians at church.” (Pg. xix)

In Chapter 1, he says of the survey itself, “Our research shows that th[e] percentage of LGBT people raised in a religious community is 11 points HIGHER than … for average Americans… survey question #31 [asked]: ‘Were you raised in a specific religion?’… In this case, ‘raised in’ is defined as your attendance of a religious service, event, gathering, conference, or group on average of at least one time per week throughout the ages of 0 to 18.’… In order to mitigate against self-selection, our research team intentionally did not partner with religious or faith-based LGBT organizations or events to garner participants. Nor did we partner with LGBT outlets who had overt connections to religious communities. Our participants were gathered in-person and online through partnerships with nonreligious entities: university groups, community centers, LGBT-rights organizations… HIV/AIDS groups and clinics, gay pride parades, the Gay Games… and online LGBT activist communities.” (Pg. 4-5)

He notes, “Our data reports that 54 percent of our LGBT participants left their religious community after the age of 18. This is exactly double the amount of the general American population who leave their religious communities as adults.” (Pg. 34)

He reports, “The most common reason given by LGBT people for leaving their religious community is ‘negative personal experiences.’ The three most significant … are that LGBT people: *Did not feel safe in their religious community: 18%; *Were kicked out after coming out: 9%; *Were not allowed to volunteer: 6%... Some of the specific responses under [‘Not feeling safe’] include: *… their faith community’s dominant narrative about LGBT people emphasized condemnation in hell. *Participants worried if they confided to anyone in their faith community about their orientation and spiritual journey, they would be outed.” (Pg. 38)

He points out, “According to statistics released by the Barna Group, only 9 percent of Americans are open to returning to faith and its practices after making a decision to leave their faith communities. Yet our data reveals that LGBTs are open to returning at a rate 65 PERCENT HIGHER than the average American. This total includes ONE-THIRD of LGBT’s raised in theologically conservative faith communities. Given the current state of the culture war, these two revelations are almost inconceivable.” (Pg. 65)

What would influence LGBT people to return? The survey said: “1. Feeling loved (12%). 2. Given time (9%). 3. Faith community’s change in theology (8%). 4. No attempts to change their sexual orientation (6%). 5. Authenticity (5%). 6. Support of family and friends (4%).” (Pg. 72)

He recounts, “Gay, bisexual, and transgender males continue practicing the faith of their youth more frequently than lesbian, bisexuals and transgender women. This is directly opposite to the gender split throughout the general American religious scene, where women occupy the majority. Why is this? I believe that it has to do with the experience of marginalization… LBT women face cultural challenges that GBT men don’t experience.” (Pg. 96)

He suggests, “Our survey has found that prayer is an extremely important part of the whole of the LGBT community… And herein lies still further potential for a peaceful, hopeful conclusion to the LGBT culture war. Togetherness through prayer, through the cries to God in our times of greatest fear and greatest need, can be the unifying act of desperation that brings us together before a loving God.” (Pg. 111)

He continues, “The act of praying across the divide WITH… the other should begin with the church… the Sermon on the Mount … set[s] a moral standard not for sexual ethics but for relating to our neighbor, for following God in the real world… I promise you, praying this with someone you consider antagonistic to your being and worldview will completely change the way in which you look upon and dialogue with that person from that point forward.” (Pg. 122)

He concludes, “The new reality presented in [this book] has to do with how we relate to one another---even given an unchanging core of profound disagreement… The new reality is about the opportunity to learn from our other, to understand our other… Our greatest challenges … is a kind of cult of agreement---the pointless cycle of trying to convince our other to believe the same as we do… assimilation has failed again and again…” (Pg. 152) Later, he adds, “This research is useless you do something good with it. Take the over 1,700 participants with you; they’ve trusted you with their stories… as this research has shown, faith can bring us back together.” (Pg. 165)

This book will be of keen interest to those studying religion in the LGBT community.
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[John · Rating 1 out of 5]

Just horrific. Anti-LGBT theology masquerading as neutral, statistical research. Any progressive Christian (a category almost completely ignored by this book) or any member of the LGBT community (consistently "othered" from chapter 2 on) is likely to be offended on basically every page. Avoid at all costs.

[Barbara Oudová Holcátová · Rating 3 out of 5]

Most importantly, Martin should have kept to Christianity. It's what he knows, it's what most of the book is about, and the brief forays into other religions tend to go terribly (especially when it comes to Islam). Pretending this books adequately covers non-Christian religions is just inaccurate.
Apart from that, the data and particular stories are amazing and fascinating. Martin's commentary tends to be less so. The biggest problem is the false equivalence he posits between the various conservative churches and the progressive side of the "culture war". In the main part of the text it's only an occasional comment, but int he last chapter, it gets to be truly over the top. Claims that the "progressive side" is just as fundamentalist as the conservative churches are, in the context of LGBT, ridiculous. When progressives start sending conservative kids to conversion camps, we can talk. Until then, such false equivalencies are harmful and do nothing to contribute to the reconciliation Martin claims to want, because you can't have reconciliation without acknowledging where harm was done (as Martin, iirc, says himself at some point in the book). If martin wanted to write a conclusion like that, he needed to at least engage the argument of what to do when each side believes the other is doing active harm. Without solving this problem, are talk about reconciliation will always be empty.
There are also some issues with interpretation of the data, like when the finding that 21% of the closeted respondents are Catholic is interpreted as showing that a church's conservative approach to LGBT leads to more closeted individuals...even though 21% is actually a little bit lower that the percentage of Catholics in US population (23%). There were other issues like that, or points where there were missing comparisons that would be necessary to make his point convincing. So in conclusion, read it for the data, and for the data only.

[David Peck · Rating 4 out of 5]

I really appreciate Andrew Marin's writing style and insight. He is thoughtful, mindful, and his approach is filled with grace towards all. It's clear from his first book, and it continues into this one, that his desire is to bridge the divide and help build positive relational connections between LGBTQ people and the church. He recognizes the harm the church has done in the past, and he uses the results of his research to help us understand that we are more alike than we know. Nothing good comes out of attacking and dividing. Making LGBTQ people into Others to separate them from the rest of the body of Christ damages both them and the body as a whole. They are precious children of God deeply loved by the Creator, and, as Marin's research reveals, many long for connectedness to God and a faith family. The church has done poorly by LGBTQ people, and Marin's book goes a long way in pointing out the pain caused and the way forward.

[Fallon · Rating 5 out of 5]

I’m recommending this book to EVERYONE I know.. Andrew Marin, à straight Christian Psychology researcher did an incredibly far-reaching open-ended and personal research study on the relationship between people of faith and LGBT people. He found the roots of what drives queer people away from churches. He found a few ways to rebuild bridges. His study is fully and simply explained in a conversational style and explains the « culture war » he says engulfs people of faith and queer people. If you care about queer people. If you are a Christian. If you want to understand why there’s so much hurt and pain between faith communities and LGBT people. If you want to understand and begin to dismantle this culture war. RÉAD THIS BOOK. @queer_lit #queerlitreadathon #nonfiction #seeyourself Queer person of faith

[Ericka Andersen · Rating 5 out of 5]

Really interesting data tied to thoughtful and compassionate analysis. It reminds me of information, really, about the entirety of the unchurched (or formerly churched) population in many ways. It shows Christian communities have a long way to go but so much opportunity to welcome people back in in a loving way.

[Christina Dent · Rating 5 out of 5]

Fascinating and convicting study results about LGBTQ people and faith. The church could learn a lot from this about how to love and how to bridge divides, even if there are theological differences and understanding of biblical sexual ethics. Highly recommend.

[Mary · Rating 5 out of 5]

Fantastic book analyzing the number of LGBT persons found in religious communities, and how to bridge that divide.

[Kaitlyn Federwitz · Rating 3 out of 5]

This was an interesting topic, but I listened to the audio book and the narrator was kind of dry, and it can be hard to listen to statistics.

[Jeremy · Rating 4 out of 5]

The research here is important for us to take into account! The LGBTQ community + church relationship needs work! This stuff here is surely a piece of the puzzle.

[Trent Martin · Rating 4 out of 5]

*3.5

[Jennifer · Rating 5 out of 5]

Thoroughly scientific, eye-opening, compassionate, and engaging. Highly recommend.

[Maria Weir · Rating 5 out of 5]

Reviews from LGBTQ+ people make some valid points but this book is a entry point for socially conservative Christians who need to begin somewhere

[Rob Jacobs · Rating 5 out of 5]

I gained a lot of insight. The data is very impacting. I like the data because it shows the honest story.

[Tabitha · Rating 4 out of 5]

This book challenged my thinking and opened my eyes to some new ideas

[Elizabeth · Rating 5 out of 5]

I'd consider this a non-polemical must-read for anyone interested in the relationship between religion and the LGBT community, especially if they're in ministry.

[Eric · Rating 4 out of 5]

Marin really hits his stride here, using some pretty extensive research to challenge the 'us vs. them' narrative present whenever the Church and the LGBTQ community interact. Perhaps the most personally challenging chapter was where Marin covers the role of prayer; he calls for LGBTQ people to pray with those in the church who disagree with their identity.

[Melissa · Rating 3 out of 5]

This is a book detailing a large study (about 1700) of LGBT respondents and their thoughts on religion. Honestly, it put facts to a story that isn't always told, how so many of us come from similar backgrounds and how much we are alike. He even started the Marin foundation to try to help religious and LGBT groups to come together. Even with largely different lifestyles, this focuses on love, reconciliation, and accepting people where we are. He writes about how Jesus didn't surround himself with people like himself. He surrounded himself with people who others despised. And what the survey and his book try to show is how people don't have to be exactly alike for us to love one another. That is where reconciliation happens.

It took me a long time to finish, it wasn't the easiest read, but so glad I read it. If nothing else helps me to understand things from a different view.

[Cory Isakson · Rating 3 out of 5]

Important! This book is a case study in the spiritual nature, background and interests of LQBTQ people. They are Christian in greater number than you imagine!

[Samuel · Rating 5 out of 5]

Being under 200 pages. This is a pretty short book, but it is full of information. I mean, this is a book about a research study on LGBT religious backgrounds, beliefs, and practices, but Marin does a great job at keeping the content from being dry. His findings caused me to stop reading and think about what I read, which is why you'll want to take your time with it.

The 18 page appendix on LGBT Minorities and Their Religious Experiences alone is worth buying the book.

[Amory Blaine · Rating 3 out of 5]

Edit after second read (2022 vs 2018): I appreciate the research behind this book, and even, to some degree, the author's neutral stance. I remember it helping me move toward a more affirming theology, and I think it's an excellent first book for people who might eventually be open to that as well. It's very data-driven, which I love, but that also dates it. Already I wonder what statistics may have shifted since it was published in 2016.

[Lorlor · Rating 5 out of 5]

A great discussion. I loved how open ended Andrew Marin left this book, without assigning sides or painting everyone into black and white boxes.