What do you think?
Rate this book
Dialogues de Monsieur le baron de Lahontan et d'un sauvage dans l'Amérique
Title: Dialogues de Monsieur le baron de Lahontan et d'un sauvage dans l'Amerique: contenant une description exacte des moeurs et des coutumes des ces peuples sauvages: avec les voyages de du m�me en Portugal et en Danemarc [sic] ...: le tout enrichi de cartes et figures.
Author: Lahontan, Louis Armand de Lom d'Arce, baron de
Publisher: Gale, Sabin Americana
Description:
Based on Joseph Sabin's famed bibliography, Bibliotheca Americana, Sabin Americana, 1500--1926 contains a collection of books, pamphlets, serials and other works about the Americas, from the time of their discovery to the early 1900s. Sabin Americana is rich in original accounts of discovery and exploration, pioneering and westward expansion, the U.S. Civil War and other military actions, Native Americans, slavery and abolition, religious history and more.
Sabin Americana offers an up-close perspective on life in the western hemisphere, encompassing the arrival of the Europeans on the shores of North America in the late 15th century to the first decades of the 20th century. Covering a span of over 400 years in North, Central and South America as well as the Caribbean, this collection highlights the society, politics, religious beliefs, culture, contemporary opinions and momentous events of the time. It provides access to documents from an assortment of genres, sermons, political tracts, newspapers, books, pamphlets, maps, legislation, literature and more.
Now for the first time, these high-quality digital scans of original works are available via print-on-demand, making them readily accessible to libraries, students, independent scholars, and readers of all ages.
++++
The below data was compiled from various identification fields in the bibliographic record of this title. This data is provided as an additional tool in helping to insure edition identification:
++++
SourceLibrary: Huntington Library
DocumentID: SABCP00069000
CollectionID: CTRG10141714-B
PublicationDate: 17040101
SourceBibCitation: Selected Americana from Sabin's Dictionary of books relating to America
Notes:
Collation: 222 p., [6] leaves of plates: ill.; 16 cm
Author: Lahontan, Louis Armand de Lom d'Arce, baron de
Publisher: Gale, Sabin Americana
Description:
Based on Joseph Sabin's famed bibliography, Bibliotheca Americana, Sabin Americana, 1500--1926 contains a collection of books, pamphlets, serials and other works about the Americas, from the time of their discovery to the early 1900s. Sabin Americana is rich in original accounts of discovery and exploration, pioneering and westward expansion, the U.S. Civil War and other military actions, Native Americans, slavery and abolition, religious history and more.
Sabin Americana offers an up-close perspective on life in the western hemisphere, encompassing the arrival of the Europeans on the shores of North America in the late 15th century to the first decades of the 20th century. Covering a span of over 400 years in North, Central and South America as well as the Caribbean, this collection highlights the society, politics, religious beliefs, culture, contemporary opinions and momentous events of the time. It provides access to documents from an assortment of genres, sermons, political tracts, newspapers, books, pamphlets, maps, legislation, literature and more.
Now for the first time, these high-quality digital scans of original works are available via print-on-demand, making them readily accessible to libraries, students, independent scholars, and readers of all ages.
++++
The below data was compiled from various identification fields in the bibliographic record of this title. This data is provided as an additional tool in helping to insure edition identification:
++++
SourceLibrary: Huntington Library
DocumentID: SABCP00069000
CollectionID: CTRG10141714-B
PublicationDate: 17040101
SourceBibCitation: Selected Americana from Sabin's Dictionary of books relating to America
Notes:
Collation: 222 p., [6] leaves of plates: ill.; 16 cm
- GenresPhilosophyHistory
103 pages, Leather Bound
First published January 1, 1993
2 people are currently reading
153 people want to read
About the author
Louis-Armand de Lom d'Arce
114 books11 followersLouis Armand de Lom d'Arce, baron de Lahontan.
Ratings & Reviews
Friends & Following
Create a free account to discover what your friends think of this book!
Community Reviews
Displaying 1 - 7 of 7 reviews
September 19, 2021
The 16 and 1700s were a fabulous time for discovering other societies. As European empires took shape, military and religious institutions encountered and recorded the ways of natives all over the world. They took the time to learn the languages and interact with people in their own environments, learning (and rejecting) their ways. Not as anthropologists looking back, but as ethnographers, in real time. Before natives became (legally) subhumans to be removed and eliminated through disease, denigration, displacement and death, they were treated with some level of respect.
In the late 1600s, a young man from France found himself in Canada, working for the governor, Frontenac. He met and spent a lot of time with a Wendat (Huron) indian by the name Kondiaronk. He turned those conversations into a book called Conversations of Baron de Lahontan with a Savage in America, which is still around, 320 years after its publication in 1703. Louis-Armond de Lom D’Arce, baron de Lahontan was on the run for insubordination and crossing some very important people, but his book went on to much fame and glory.
It shows a 35 year old native of great intellect and quickness, able to spot the inconsistencies and hypocrisies of European religion, society, and argument itself. This despite being unable to read or write, and travel limited to where he could walk, as it was the Europeans who introduced horses. Their back and forth is jousting, with Kondiaronk (called Adario in the book) scoring point after point and his French partner playing a lot of defense, often handing off to absent Jesuits for backup. The Huron has to point out that “It’s strange that though we’re speaking together, you only every answer superficially to objections I make to you.” The savage, noble savage, wild man, naïf, primitive or wildchild stereotype is nowhere to be seen. It is arguments between equals.
There is much to hope for in the way humans live together, whether in bands, villages or large cities, which did exist globally, often with no top-down governance at all. A stress-free existence (except for the invasion by the Europeans) is worth evaluating further. There remains a lot to learn and benefit from the natives, once we get past the name calling, the putdowns, and the closeminded white supremacy.
The book splits into five topics: religion, law, happiness, medicine and marriage. Religion is the easiest, as Adario points out contradictions and senseless points in Catholicism, such how hell means a body burns for eternity, when it is only the soul that goes to heaven or hell. There’s nothing to burn, and anyway it is pointless at the center of the earth, which can’t accommodate all the Catholic sinners, let alone the billions who aren’t Catholics. He says it would have been more appropriate to put hell in the sun, an intuitive choice. And never mind that Earth is not forever, either. And why would God create a constant flow of men all over the world only to send them to hell?
That’s an attack on the religion. Here’s a comparison of Huron ways vs. Catholic: “For the appreciation of your fellow men, it’s a rare thing among you to follow anyone else’s counsel; you let them die of hunger, you avoid them, you set up your home away from them, you are always ready to make demands but never ready to give, and if you want something from them, you wish them dead, or at best, you wait impatiently.”
In law, Adario is all over private property: “The ‘what’s yours is yours and what’s mine is mine’ drives you. It’s easy to show an example from all the savages of Canada, because despite their apparent poverty, they are much richer than you, where the yours/mine principle drives all kinds of crime.” He says Europeans only do good when forced to, and avoid doing evil only by the fear of punishment.” This is not a basis for civilization to him. His nickname in French was The Rat.
In Happiness, Adario says “I am the master of my own body, make my own decisions, do what I want; I am the highest and the lowest of my nation; I fear no one, and depend only on the Great Spirit (Earth)…Hurons live without laws and without tortures, spend their lives softly and calmly, and are joyful in a happiness unknown to the French.” He concludes that “Since we see no evidence of anything similar among all the peoples of Canada, it absolutely must be that this Evil Spirit has power over you that it does not have over us.”
Natives did not spend their lives in the pursuit of money or property, and had no use for either when the Europeans wanted to trade for beaver pelts. They shared accommodation in longhouses, and everyone was equal, men and women both. They had a lot of leisure time, and avoided so-called improvements such as farming and the wheel, which simply meant more work for everyone (wheels were limited to toys). In an age where every new labor-saving device means more work, this attitude is worth a second look (not that a first one was ever made).
And in conclusion: “This huge gulf that I perceive in everything between Europeans and the peoples of Canada leads me to believe we here have not descended from your supposed Adam.” Ties it all together quite nicely.
Over the course of three centuries, cynics have said Lahontan simply invented all of this to be controversial and sell more books. But research shows numerous others had similar encounters with Kondiaronk, and were similarly impressed. It also turns out to be true, as the book indicates, that Kondiaronk was brought to Europe to be shown off to the powers that be. There he saw firsthand how justice meant whippings and beheadings of their fellow countrymen, overbearing policing, massive poverty and class distinctions, where everyone bowed and scraped to their betters. A society where it took a man two hours to dress before appearing in public. Everyone ranked below the king, unlike in Canada, where anyone could ignore the chief, who could be removed by consensus at any time. It was all most offensive to his sensibilities.
If proof were needed, there are numerous recorded cases of whites being kidnapped and raised in the tribe, only to escape later and return to civilization. But many of them then made their way back to the tribe rather than live out their lives in the pretense, stress and injustices of European society. There are no cases of a European-raised and educated native North American running back to European society as being preferable at any level.
David Wineberg
If you liked this review, I invite you to read my book The Straight Dope. It’s an essay collection based on my first thousand reviews and what I learned. Right now it’s FREE for Prime members, otherwise — cheap! Reputed to be fascinating and a superfast read. https://www.amazon.com/Straight-Dope-...
In the late 1600s, a young man from France found himself in Canada, working for the governor, Frontenac. He met and spent a lot of time with a Wendat (Huron) indian by the name Kondiaronk. He turned those conversations into a book called Conversations of Baron de Lahontan with a Savage in America, which is still around, 320 years after its publication in 1703. Louis-Armond de Lom D’Arce, baron de Lahontan was on the run for insubordination and crossing some very important people, but his book went on to much fame and glory.
It shows a 35 year old native of great intellect and quickness, able to spot the inconsistencies and hypocrisies of European religion, society, and argument itself. This despite being unable to read or write, and travel limited to where he could walk, as it was the Europeans who introduced horses. Their back and forth is jousting, with Kondiaronk (called Adario in the book) scoring point after point and his French partner playing a lot of defense, often handing off to absent Jesuits for backup. The Huron has to point out that “It’s strange that though we’re speaking together, you only every answer superficially to objections I make to you.” The savage, noble savage, wild man, naïf, primitive or wildchild stereotype is nowhere to be seen. It is arguments between equals.
There is much to hope for in the way humans live together, whether in bands, villages or large cities, which did exist globally, often with no top-down governance at all. A stress-free existence (except for the invasion by the Europeans) is worth evaluating further. There remains a lot to learn and benefit from the natives, once we get past the name calling, the putdowns, and the closeminded white supremacy.
The book splits into five topics: religion, law, happiness, medicine and marriage. Religion is the easiest, as Adario points out contradictions and senseless points in Catholicism, such how hell means a body burns for eternity, when it is only the soul that goes to heaven or hell. There’s nothing to burn, and anyway it is pointless at the center of the earth, which can’t accommodate all the Catholic sinners, let alone the billions who aren’t Catholics. He says it would have been more appropriate to put hell in the sun, an intuitive choice. And never mind that Earth is not forever, either. And why would God create a constant flow of men all over the world only to send them to hell?
That’s an attack on the religion. Here’s a comparison of Huron ways vs. Catholic: “For the appreciation of your fellow men, it’s a rare thing among you to follow anyone else’s counsel; you let them die of hunger, you avoid them, you set up your home away from them, you are always ready to make demands but never ready to give, and if you want something from them, you wish them dead, or at best, you wait impatiently.”
In law, Adario is all over private property: “The ‘what’s yours is yours and what’s mine is mine’ drives you. It’s easy to show an example from all the savages of Canada, because despite their apparent poverty, they are much richer than you, where the yours/mine principle drives all kinds of crime.” He says Europeans only do good when forced to, and avoid doing evil only by the fear of punishment.” This is not a basis for civilization to him. His nickname in French was The Rat.
In Happiness, Adario says “I am the master of my own body, make my own decisions, do what I want; I am the highest and the lowest of my nation; I fear no one, and depend only on the Great Spirit (Earth)…Hurons live without laws and without tortures, spend their lives softly and calmly, and are joyful in a happiness unknown to the French.” He concludes that “Since we see no evidence of anything similar among all the peoples of Canada, it absolutely must be that this Evil Spirit has power over you that it does not have over us.”
Natives did not spend their lives in the pursuit of money or property, and had no use for either when the Europeans wanted to trade for beaver pelts. They shared accommodation in longhouses, and everyone was equal, men and women both. They had a lot of leisure time, and avoided so-called improvements such as farming and the wheel, which simply meant more work for everyone (wheels were limited to toys). In an age where every new labor-saving device means more work, this attitude is worth a second look (not that a first one was ever made).
And in conclusion: “This huge gulf that I perceive in everything between Europeans and the peoples of Canada leads me to believe we here have not descended from your supposed Adam.” Ties it all together quite nicely.
Over the course of three centuries, cynics have said Lahontan simply invented all of this to be controversial and sell more books. But research shows numerous others had similar encounters with Kondiaronk, and were similarly impressed. It also turns out to be true, as the book indicates, that Kondiaronk was brought to Europe to be shown off to the powers that be. There he saw firsthand how justice meant whippings and beheadings of their fellow countrymen, overbearing policing, massive poverty and class distinctions, where everyone bowed and scraped to their betters. A society where it took a man two hours to dress before appearing in public. Everyone ranked below the king, unlike in Canada, where anyone could ignore the chief, who could be removed by consensus at any time. It was all most offensive to his sensibilities.
If proof were needed, there are numerous recorded cases of whites being kidnapped and raised in the tribe, only to escape later and return to civilization. But many of them then made their way back to the tribe rather than live out their lives in the pretense, stress and injustices of European society. There are no cases of a European-raised and educated native North American running back to European society as being preferable at any level.
David Wineberg
If you liked this review, I invite you to read my book The Straight Dope. It’s an essay collection based on my first thousand reviews and what I learned. Right now it’s FREE for Prime members, otherwise — cheap! Reputed to be fascinating and a superfast read. https://www.amazon.com/Straight-Dope-...
February 25, 2023
Publié originalement au début du 18 ieme siècle, en formule de débat d’idée, le baron de lahotan ( petit bourgeois français ) argumente avec Adario ( grand philosophe et chef Huron ) sur le clash de leur 2 société respective. Religion,politique, morale, mariage, propriété privée, monnaie, etc. Tous y passe. Le baron essaie tant bien que mal de monter son argumentaire contre adario qui démonte une après l’autre toute ses positions magistralement. Il va sans dire que la société autochtone ici présente dans l’est du Canada étais milles fois plus avancé que la société européenne au niveau de l’égalitarisme. Donc qui étais vraiment le sauvage comme l’affirme Daniel Paul ?! Selon Wengrow et Greaber ce texte a été un moment fondateur de la philosophie des lumières inspiré par leibniz, Rousseau, etc. Donc les fondements de la philosophie européenne égalitariste contemporaine serais autochtone en provenance de l’est du Canada ?? J’adore.
September 21, 2021
Texte fascinant et d’importance capitale au développement des Lumières : Diderot, Voltaire, Leibniz et Rousseau notamment s’inspirent de ce texte, aujourd’hui peu lu. L’influence de Kondiaronk (“Adario”) ainsi que la rencontre avec les peuples autochtones d’Amérique méritent d’être plus amplement reconnue dans l’histoire de la “pensée occidentale”. Il est cependant difficile de distinguer dans les mots du personnage Adario ce qui provient directement de la bouche de Kondiaronk des idées propres au Baron, qui se donne un rôle ironique et insincère dans le dialogue et dont les véritables idées sont confondues à celle de Adario.
Cette édition laisse à désirer, les notes sent souvent impertinentes et l’appareil critique ne suffit pas (avec un vocabulaire raciste de surcroît)
Cette édition laisse à désirer, les notes sent souvent impertinentes et l’appareil critique ne suffit pas (avec un vocabulaire raciste de surcroît)
April 9, 2025
Une oeuvre accessible, légère et pourtant majeure de l'ethnographie des Amérindiens, annonciatrice de la philosophie des Lumières et de la construction du "mythe du bon sauvage" que Diderot ou Rousseau populariseront. Les propos mis dans la bouche de l'Indien Adario (inspiré par le chef réel Kandiaronk) recueillis et "traduits" par Lahontan après des années passées auprès des Hurons, présagent les débats de la modernité sur la remise en question de la propriété privée, de l'hégémonie de l'église, ou même des rapports hommes-femmes. Une lecture stimulante.
October 9, 2023
0/10 c’était nul pas merci mon prof
June 7, 2025
Common sense battling the myths and self-deception of the West … in 1680s (while Rousseau’s Inequality was published in 1754).
January 9, 2026
I read only the first dialogue, it's sometimes interesting, but not as much as I hoped. And the style renders the read difficult to enjoy.
Displaying 1 - 7 of 7 reviews