You Say to Brick: The Life of Louis Kahn

by Wendy Lesser

WINNER OF THE MARFIELD PRIZE AND PEN AMERICA LOS ANGELES'S 2018 LITERARY AWARD IN RESEARCH NONFICTION. FINALIST FOR THE 2018 PEN/BOGRAD WELD PRIZE FOR BIOGRAPHY

One of the Washington Post 's 50 Notable Works of Nonfiction in 2017, a New York Times Notable Book of 2017, and one of Kirkus 's Best Nonfiction Books of 2017

"Wendy Lesser's You Say to Brick is easily the most complete narrative of Kahn's life and career, magnificently researched and gracefully written." ―Inga Saffron, New York Times Book Review

Born in Estonia 1901 and brought to America in 1906, the architect Louis Kahn grew up in poverty in Philadelphia. By the time of his mysterious death in 1974, he was widely recognized as one of the greatest architects of his era. Yet this enormous reputation was based on only a handful of masterpieces, all built during the last fifteen years of his life.

Wendy Lesser’s You Say to The Life of Louis Kahn is a major exploration of the architect’s life and work. Kahn, perhaps more than any other twentieth-century American architect, was a “public” architect. Rather than focusing on corporate commissions, he devoted himself to designing research facilities, government centers, museums, libraries, and other structures that would serve the public good. But this warm, captivating person, beloved by students and admired by colleagues, was also a secretive man hiding under a series of masks.

Kahn himself, however, is not the only complex subject that comes vividly to life in these pages. His signature achievements―like the Salk Institute in La Jolla, the National Assembly Building of Bangladesh, and the Indian Institute of Management in Ahmedabad―can at first seem as enigmatic and beguiling as the man who designed them. In attempts to describe these structures, we are often forced to speak in contradictions and structures that seem at once unmistakably modern and ancient; enormous built spaces that offer a sense of intimate containment; designs in which light itself seems tangible, a raw material as tactile as travertine or Kahn’s beloved concrete. This is where Lesser’s talents as one of our most original and gifted cultural critics come into play. Interspersed throughout her account of Kahn’s life and career are exhilarating “in situ” descriptions of what it feels like to move through his built structures.

Drawing on extensive original research, lengthy interviews with his children, his colleagues, and his students, and travel to the far-flung sites of his career-defining buildings, Lesser has written a landmark biography of this elusive genius, revealing the mind behind some of the twentieth century’s most celebrated architecture.

Genres: Architecture, Biography, Nonfiction, Art, Biography Memoir, Audiobook, Design

416 pages, Hardcover

First published March 14, 2017

About the author

Wendy Lesser a critic, novelist, and editor based in Berkeley, California.

She is a member of the American Academy of Arts and Sciences, and has received fellowships from the Guggenheim Foundation, National Endowment for the Humanities, and the New York Public Library's Cullman Center for Scholars and Writers.

Reviews

[Louise · Rating 4 out of 5]

As modern architecture looked forward to light and simple flat forms, Louis Khan looked back to castles and ancient structures. Author Wendy Lessing, in showing how his aesthetic developed begins at the end, and presages the beginning throughout.

The book begins with Kahn’s death and funeral. Then there is a chronology: his family’s beginning in America; school; courtship; travel; and career and some references back to the actual beginning in Estonia. Interspersed in the chronology, are short "In-Situ" chapters devoted to individual works. The prose in these chapters is ethereal (too much for my taste) and expresses not just appreciation but reverence for the works.

While Khan can be criticized for what today would be considered sexual harassment in the workplace, unlike the stereotypical “Mad Men” of his era, the women he pursued were talented professionals and he treated them as such. He did not have the children who resulted aborted; nor did he deny them or leave the mothers on their own. The affairs were unfair (this really needs a better word) to his only/lonely wife Esther Kahn who loved him and made his life and work possible. She deserves a special tribute.

The last chapter goes back to the very young, sensitive boy, Itze-Leib Schmuilowsky (aka Louis I. Khan) in Estonia. Lesser writes in the poetic the style used for Kahn’s work, but here it perfectly conveys the meaning. She writes what the boy saw (castles and fortresses) and how the young boy’s wonder at the elements of earth produced scars that many noted as drivers of his work, personality and ethics. This chapter is a literary gem.

I would have liked the Epilogue to have more about Esther: how she spent her last years and how she dealt with the business and debt Kahn left behind.

To read this book you need more than the b & w photos in the book. Perhaps the publishers expect the reader to go to the internet where there is a lot of background. All the buildings I looked up had web sites. Some were very well developed.

[Ksensei K · Rating 4 out of 5]

“You Say to Brick” is an informative, highly enjoyable book. Louis Kahn is someone I hold in great reverence, and I was nervous a biography is going to demystify this tremendous character for me into some plain earthly man. I am glad to report that has not happened.

The book is well-paced, well-researched, sufficiently detailed and pleasantly written. Wendy Lesser quite skillfully manages to relay the facts of Louie’s life without making them sound trivial. There is hardly a crescendo from Kahn being an unknown beginner architect to him becoming a world-renown figure, which seems to be an accurate reflection of his reality - Kahn remaining himself and committed to his vision, design philosophy, his clients and his office throughout, regardless of whether he was doing single family houses or a parliament building. It is a fitting evenness. A great deal of attention is given to Kahn’s personal and family life, which also does not strike one as out of place. I’ve even enjoyed the (very appropriate) “in situ” interjections, though I am not sure how polished the author’s skill is when it comes to writing about buildings, which is a very specific kind of writing. She includes a lot of quotes throughout the book, but I found them to most revealing in the “in situ” chapters.

My one reservation is the lack of drawings. Ah! How can one write about buildings, especially such complex buildings, without including at least a couple of plans and sections? I’m sure including drawings would have enhanced the book tremendously, one does not need to be an architect to see the beauty in them. More numerous and colored images wouldn’t hurt either, but I am sure Wendy Lesser is not one at fault here.

[Adam · Rating 4 out of 5]

I have not read many books about architecture, but I received "You Say to Brick" as a gift, and really enjoyed it. This is a very well-crafted biography of architect Louis Kahn. Author Wendy Lesser walks you through Kahn's life in a well-planned methodical trajectory, as if you were walking through the interior of one of Kahn's signature buildings.

The book begins with Kahn's sudden and bizarre death in the men's room of New York's Penn Station at the age of 73, at the pinnacle of his career. From there we are taken through the architect's professional and personal life in more or less chronological order. Most interestingly, the biography is regularly interrupted with jewel-like "in-situ" chapters, where one of Kahn's creations is described in precise and evocative detail. I have never seen any of these, but now I want to visit them all: Jonas Saulk Biological Studies Center in La Jolla California; Kimbell Art Museum, Fort Worth Texas; Phillips Exeter Academy Library; Trenton Bath House; Bangladesh National Assembly Building; Indian Institute of Management in Ahmedabad. The only one that is anywhere near me is Four Freedoms Park and monument on Roosevelt Island, New York, built according to Kahn's design several decades after his 1974 death.

According to the author, Kahn's work is not instantly recognizable in the manner of, say, Calatrava. He was more focused on how people experienced the interiors of his buildings than how they looked from outside. And there were certain themes running through many of his buildings: concrete, travertine, juxtaposition of natural light and shadow. Kahn's style of work was more collaborative than the stereotypical architect; he worked closely with engineers, welcomed feedback and constraints from his clients, and would make multiple revisions to his designs.

On a personal level, Kahn was a talented draftsman, painter and musician from an early age. But as soon as he discovered architecture it became his passion, which he pursued with a single-minded intensity for his entire life. It's very interesting to read about an individual who knows what he wants to do, and does it well.

The other part of the story is Kahn's family life. He married Esther as a young man, had a daughter with her, and stayed with her until the day he died. At the same time he had multiple affairs with young women who worked in his office, and fathered children with two of them. This adds some spice to the story, but in the end it's all about architecture, and is a pleasure to read.

[Gunnar · Rating 4 out of 5]

I think this may be the first biography I’ve ever finished of my own accord. It was a gift from a friend, and sat unread for quite some time but I’m glad I finally did.

My familiarity with Louis Kahn was pretty minimal, he was mentioned among other modernists such as Le Corbusier when I was studying architecture, and I remember specifically looking at the Kimbell Museum as a case study for a masterwork.

I didn’t necessarily ever feel the need to learn about the personal lives of any architects, and Kahn was no different. Now, it seems like I might have just picked the most interesting one to read about.

Wendy Lesser does a fantastic job of telling his story. No details felt especially tedious, and her two main points of interest were articulated well through the entirety of the book. Alongside the personal details, she includes more in-depth descriptions of some of his more famous buildings, which were always well spoken.

I feel as though the two main points of interest were the several affairs he had throughout his life, and his less-than-diligent business practices. When he died, he left behind children from three different mothers and a ton of unfinished and never built plans, as well as considerable debt.

Lesser, for better or worse, relinquished quite a bit of her own author’s voice passing judgement on any of Kahn’s misgivings. Instead, she supplements her own judgements for those of the people who knew him. It’s very clear she spent a lot of time interviewing his family, partners, business relationships and those who worked for him, in order to get the full scope feelings about what was clearly a very complex man.

The through line though, is that many people were in awe of him. As I read, I definitely got a sense of that awe, although I’m not entirely sure I’d like the guy if I knew him.

All in all, I really think this was a fantastic read. Lesser ends with a really sharp insight in the very last paragraph that ties together the story of the man and his buildings in such an exquisite way.

[Yael · Rating 5 out of 5]

Lesser did a beautiful job capturing the essence of Lou Kahn. This was a beautifully written, lovingly told story of a man and his milieu, both professional and social, family and business. This book inspires me to take a trek to see all of Kahn's structures.
She interspersed personal and professional tales in a very readable fashion. Combination homage and truth. Great read.

[William · Rating 4 out of 5]

I have mixed feelings about this book. There are two stories here, and they do not work equally well. The one which I enjoyed was the story of Louis Kahn the man. He comes through as a distinct and distinctive individual. I was disappointed, though, in the architectural history and analysis, and found it tedious and repetitive.

Louis Kahn the person comes through clearly. He was charming, profoundly idealistic and aesthetic and a workaholic. It is fascinating that a man so driven and frequently irritating nevertheless generated loyalty and even affection from colleagues and clients. A short guy with disfiguring scars on his face and hands, he was nevertheless a magnet for the opposite sex. I guess it's not my place to judge the monogamy of maintaining three households each with a child, and to some extent a fourth. He seemed to love and be loyal to each of the four women, but is loyalty spread so thin even valid? But he did make an effort t be a presence in the life of each mother and child, and I suppose that counts for something.

Only architecture, ancient and his own, held his serious and undivided attention. He was away from his wife a great deal, and visited his other families what seems like about once a month. He was not much of a personal correspondent, with the families he created and with his relatives. He was compulsive and controlling and incompetent as a businessman. His practice seemed frequently to hover on the brink of bankruptcy.

The eerie part of the book was the extent to which I could see my father in Kahn. He was born in Estonia in 1901 and came to the US at the age of five. My father was born in Lithuania in 1900 and came to the US as a baby. My father, a journalist, had Kahn's charisma with clients and lived for his work. Like Kahn, he dressed meticulously. And like Kahn, intimacy with him was hard to come by. Both men venerated their mothers, though Kahn's seemed a much nicer person than my grandmother, though I have this second-hand since i never really knew her and only saw her a couple of times when I was young. And like Kahn, things always seemed to go as my father wanted, though and most of this entailed putting the entire family to work in his business.

Where the book falls short for me is in the discussion of architecture. There is a saying about college admission essays: "show, don't tell." This book tells and tells, but is very short on pictures, and it is hard to visualize his creations from words alone. Much of his innovation involved the managing of natural light, but I could never really understand how that worked. The small number of pictures included are far less than riveting, and simply seem stark and simple.

Clearly Kahn's work was important in his field. That, too, is difficult to understand. He completed astonishingly few of the projects he contracted for, and the ones he did took in several cases decades to complete, in some cases finished by others after his death. In a long career, he completed only fourteen major works (and a total of 81 buildings) which seems a slim output for a champion architect. But I suppose there are painters equally revered for as small an output. He clearly had a major impact on other architects, but I have difficulty fully understanding why.

I respected this book, and can see good reasons for its being written. Unfortunately, it was a bit of a chore to read, and some buildings are discussed over and over again. In fairness to the author, I read a lot more fiction than non-fiction, so maybe the shortcoming is mine.

[Jill Meyer · Rating 5 out of 5]

Wendy Lesser's "You Say to Brick: The Life of Louis Kahn", is one of the finest biographies I've read. Her subject, Louis Kahn, was a complicated man who lived an ultra-complicated life. As a world-renowned architect, Kahn designed public buildings from Fort Worth to New Hampshire to India and Pakistan. Those are just a few of the ones seen to completion; many other designs - both public and private - were never built but live on in design reviews. He died in his early 70's, alone in a New York train station, from a heart attack. But his designs live on, long after his death, both in the structures themselves and in books and movies about him.

Does creativity bring with it some negative factors along with the positive? Louis Kahn immigrated to the United States from the Baltic area as a child and was raised in a working class family in Philadelphia. His face and hands had been badly burned as a small boy, but his mind and his confidence seemed to override the problems that such severe scarring might inflict. Like his fellow architect Frank Lloyd Wright, Kahn was a great ladies man, fathering a child each with two women he worked with. This was in addition to his wife and daughter. He was self-admittedly a lousy business man and his architecture firm was in great debt at his death. But he was a man who inspired loyalty and good work from those he employed. He was a man who left his mark on the world.

Wendy Lesser's book is a well-written, even-handed look at both Kahn's public and private life. She also lhighlights five of Kahn's most famous buildings; the Salk Center, the Kimbell Museum, the library at Phillips Exeter, and two buildings in India and Bengladesh. She also explains the title of her book, which is quite interesting because it's a glimpse inside Louis Kahn's thoughts about building. For the armchair architecture buff, Lesser's book is a great read.

[MS · Rating 4 out of 5]

While I appreciate that the author does not declare interpretations or guess-work on Louis Kahn's life as absolute truths, the excessive use of "perhaps this" or "perhaps that" in this book weighs down the reading. The continuous speculation also makes the book longer than necessary. For instance, when Louis Kahn had stated, according to the author, that he started to regret marrying Esther Kahn after one week from the wedding, the author had to add her note - "or perhaps after a day" -, I guess indicting to the wedding night. Not sure if this was necessary or an insightful remark.

In "My Architect" film, Nathaniel Kahn is able to share with the viewer a spiritual connection to his father and his work. The scene of him visiting the National Assembly Building of Bangladesh in Dhaka is remarkable. The author in this book does not establish such level of connection with the reader, and describes the experience of the National Assembly Building of Bangladesh to parts as "nightmarish."

I did not love the speculative undertone to Mr. Kahn's life, and I'm not sure if the walk-throughs of his buildings, mixed with architectural praise or critique, worked that well in between the chronological narration of Kahn's life. I also feel that the colorful book cover does not reflect Kahn's approach to design but perhaps does reflect that this book is trying to encompass too much.

But I would still recommend this book as an additional resource to learn about Kahn's upbringing, personal life, and his work life in the office.

[Tony · Rating 4 out of 5]

Deeply satisfying look into the complicated life of a 20the century artistic icon. This is not a book of criticism. It is not a straight biography. It is a portrait of the artist as a....you g man, old man, success, failure, lout, mystic, teacher, father, and son. It helps to have some knowledge of Kahn before diving in, including having watched the brilliant documentary My Architect.
That said, this is immensely readable and Wendy Lesser, already established as public intellectual, delivers a story about a wounded boy who grows into a wounded man who channels his entire life into producing monumental three dimensional abstractions that also happen to be in tho al offices and houses and museums.

One dynamic I found missing was the lack of scholars and critics interviewed for the book about Kahn. But, the group subs so well covered, there are other books for that type of reading. This can and should be read as a companion to the great book’s about the architecture and can be read as part of a syllabi’s about 20th century innovator immigrants who made the most of living in America.

[N.J. Danatangelo · Rating 4 out of 5]

Your favorite architect's favorite architect. I really enjoyed this biography, both for its structure and the in-depth research that went into trying to understand the man behind the architect. There is something about his buildings that is intensely captivating; it really grabs hold of you and is hard to shake off. The images of the Salk Institute, Exeter Library, and his museums at Yale and Fort Worth are etched in my mind, even though I haven’t experienced them in person yet. Four Freedoms Park is an incredible experience on a small island next to the island of Manhattan, overlooking countless gargantuan buildings across the river. There is something about the refined granite blocks that is totally mesmerizing. While this book helps bring you closer to understanding the genius of his architecture, the same cannot be said about the man himself. Even after reading this book and numerous viewings of the documentary My Architect, made by his son, he still feels like a complete and utter mystery to me.

[Russell · Rating 4 out of 5]

I had special interest in this book since we visit the Kimbell Museum, one of Louis Kahn's masterpieces, frequently. Wendy Lesser presents a well-researched biography of this acknowledged master of 20th century architecture without becoming too bogged down in detail. The narrative structure is mostly linear, though she starts with the odd circumstances of Kahn's death and ends with the mystery of a childhood accident that scarred his face for the rest of his life. Kahn's life proved to be as unconventional as his architecture; he never made much money, leaving a half-million dollar debt at his death, yet produced structures like no one else ever had. Lesser punctuates the story of Kahn's life with four short discussions of his masterpieces, including the Salk Institute in La Jolla and the Kimbell Museum in Fort Worth.

[Hugh · Rating 4 out of 5]

This book goes deep into the personal and the professional sides of Louis Kahn’s life. The stories are really well backed up with detailed research and questioning of accounts where they don’t fully match. The overriding feeling is that the author places great value on giving a true account. Really interesting insights into everything from office life, to concrete mixes to the impact of his facial scares to his fundamental thoughts about ruins. These accounts are interspersed with descriptive chapters about travelling through his masterpieces such as Kimbell, Salk and Dhaka, which really want to make you visit these places. I learnt a lot about his architecture whilst also building a picture about him as a person, warts and all.

[Deborah Beatriz Blum · Rating 5 out of 5]

YOU SAY TO BRICK is not just the story of Louis Kahn, it's the story of his buildings - buildings that have to be the most beautiful, awesome structures I've ever been inside. Lesser makes a brilliant stylistic choice by approaching the man's life differently than she does his creations. It not an easy job she's undertaken and she pulls if off. I especially liked the way she held back one pivotal story that shaped Kahn's life early on. She could have told it to us right away, in chronological sequence, but she saved it for the end. She must have been filled with giddy excitement when she decided to handle it like that!

[Brian · Rating 5 out of 5]

A loving portrait of one 20th century America’s most influential architects. I picked up the book based on Kahn’s Estonia connection (born in 1901 in Kuresaare) but was impressed by Kahn’s global reach, especially in South Asia. Starting backwards from the architect’s death before tracing his professional and personal life, the author also includes detailed criticism of five of Kahn’s more influential works. While I sometimes wished I could just look at a picture, these vignettes did give a good feel for the spaces they describe. Enjoyable for anyone interested in architecture, 20th century America, or just a good read.

[Linda · Rating 5 out of 5]

Beautifully written exploration of Lou Kahn and his architecture. I like the way Wendy Lesser structures the book, with intermittent chapters exploring several of his masterworks in great detail, each time writing in such a way as to make the reader feel he or she is there, as close to being there perhaps as is possible without being there. Architecture was indeed Lou Kahn's calling, what he was meant to do, and I was struck, reading this book, by the fact that writing is equally Wendy Lesser's calling. Both inspire me. Fascinating, inspiring, highly recommended book.

[Rob Neyer · Rating 3 out of 5]

Lesser's biography seems to have been assiduously researched, and she's a fine writer. Much of the narrative covers Kahn's "curious personal life," but I don't know that I needed to read quite so much about his various relationships and children. I also found myself bogged down in Lesser's interstitial "In Situ" chapters, in which she offers detailed analyses of Kahn's best-known (-loved?) buildings.

In a sense, I think Lesser's book mirrors Kahn's work: sometimes difficult, complexly structured, and ultimately inspiring.

[Lauren (: · Rating 4 out of 5]

It was really interesting to learn more behind Kahn. I’ve heard about him in my classes, and it was very nice to have context about his life. Some of the architectural descriptions were a little difficult to understand, but overall I enjoyed the story and the way it was told. I have a better appreciation for his perseverance and dedication to the craft. I am amazed that everyone around him was about to see what an impact he would have on the world and were honored to be surrounded by history as he was making it.

[Virginia · Rating 4 out of 5]

Louis Kahn is revealed in splendid detail as a sensitive, seductive, and deeply committed citizen of the world. Despite his unusual romantic life (or is it?), he manages to evoke in me great sympathy for his infidelities to his wife and to his mistresses.

As an architect, while full of passion and clarity about his work, he is portrayed as the consummate collaborator. His work, largely cement made edifices on a massive scale, contrasts with the mortal, human scaled person he was.

I loved the scenes that describe his relationship to his children. In these you see the unvarnished love he had for them, despite the complexity of how he related to them due to his ongoing marriage.

A most interesting biography that has left me with a portion of my brain given over now to musings about Lou.

[Howard Mansfield · Rating 4 out of 5]

Wendy Lesser’s new biography of Louis Kahn, You Say to Brick, gets the man and his architecture down on paper. She interviewed a legion of people, and does a good job mapping Khan’s different affairs and families. Lesser gives us a sense of how Kahn walked through the world, and best of all, what it feels like to move through his buildings. Kahn’s greatest works and his essential mystery come across in this book.

[Harley Gee · Rating 5 out of 5]

Louis Kahn was a mysterious and mystic architect who died at the height of his professional stature in 1974. His life, loves and most of all, his buildings are described with affection and insight. The detailed profile of his greatest master works is wonderfully done. Lesser's descriptions (and a smartphone's images) give one a feel for the presence of these buildings. This was a wonderful book, evoking some of the same moods as the movie, My Architect.

[Ann · Rating 4 out of 5]

Architecture has always interested me so I was interested in reading this book about this respected architect. I thought that the book might be a little boring to begin with but the architectural details are interwoven with the details of his family life along with a family history of his parents lives in Estonia to Philadelphia to Los Angleles. A lengthy epic of design and building with emphasis on style and material.

[Lorenzo Diaz campos · Rating 5 out of 5]

Un gran libro, el lado personal de un controvertido personaje. Lectura recomendada sin duda, la arquitectura más allá de la arquitectura. Es la arquitectura el resultado de lo que el arquitecto es como persona? Se deben los espacios a la vida íntima de sus creadores o son más que eso?
Interesantes reflexiones y cuestionamientos con respuestas parciales y retadoras. Lesser hace un nuevo acercamiento, sin duda más actual, a uno de los grandes genios de la arquitectura.

[Ietrio · Rating 1 out of 5]

A book of ramblings. And some rare architecture photographs.

I think I get it. Maybe Lesser went for what one could feel under the influence of the architecture. And that would be proof of poor architecture: such a petty personality that distracts from the purpose of the building to shout at the passer by "look at me". Still, the writing is bad and I could not help but turn the pages faster looking for the next photo.

[David Ryan · Rating 4 out of 5]

I’m a long-time admirer of Kahn’s work due to my experience with the Kimbell Art Museum. After reading this book, however, I have far less respect for him as a forthright character and, as an “original” architect. An extremely complicated, secretive individual, he wisely incorporated many other architectural talents and ideas into his work over the years. Much of this information is now revealed for the first time.

[Emily · Rating 4 out of 5]

The book is broken up into chunks of biography and descriptions his most notable built projects, which is suitable for an architect whose work and life were so thoroughly intwined. It’s a little heavy-handed with biographical facts, even including detailed descriptions of the Khan family tax returns, but it may be easier to get through on paper (I listened to the audiobook). In all, it was an interesting read and gives a richer understanding of his work.

[Anuradha Sarup · Rating 5 out of 5]

A treat of a book! I started reading it knowing only the name Louis Kahn and that he had been a famous architect. Chapter by chapter I explored his buildings, not just the technical aspects but rather the artistic greatness of each. The descriptions left me curious about how they looked and soon I was looking up photographs online for each building.
But beyond the architect, the book also explains his complex world of relationships.
I wish I could have met him.

[Caroline · Rating 3 out of 5]

The Kimball Art Museum is one of my favorite museums. I read this book for Artful Readings as currently the museum has a large exhibition devoted to Louis Kahn. This was a book that really helped me understand Louis Kahn and the buildings that he built and did not build. It has made me look at the Kimball with new eyes.

[Amy · Rating 3 out of 5]

Biography makes the case for Louis Kahn as a brilliant architect while telling of his three families and quirky personality. A key lesson, like his buildings, Kahn was not the same on the inside as on the outside.

[Isaac Khafif · Rating 5 out of 5]

Very good

Great book but, for those who have never seen some of Kahns buildings, it could use some photos of his work

[Olga Vannucci · Rating 5 out of 5]

An architect's architect
Prodigious intellect:
What you see on the outside
Is not what's inside.