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The Archipelago of Hope: Wisdom and Resilience from the Edge of Climate Change

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An enlightening global journey reveals the inextricable links between Indigenous cultures and their lands—and how it can form the foundation for climate change resilience around the world.

*NAUTILUS Award Grand Prize-Winner*

One cannot turn on the news today without a report on an extreme weather event or the latest update on Antarctica. But while our politicians argue, the truth is that climate change is already here. Nobody knows this better than Indigenous peoples who, having developed an intimate relationship with ecosystems over generations, have observed these changes for decades. For them, climate change is not an abstract concept or policy issue, but the reality of daily life.

After two decades of working with indigenous communities, Gleb Raygorodetsky shows how these communities are actually islands of biological and cultural diversity in the ever-rising sea of development and urbanization. They are an “archipelago of hope” as we enter the Anthropocene, for here lies humankind’s best chance to remember our roots and how to take care of the Earth. These communities are implementing creative solutions to meet these modern challenges. Solutions that are relevant to the rest of us.

We meet the Skolt Sami of Finland, the Nenets and Altai of Russia, the Sapara of Ecuador, the Karen of Myanmar, and the Tla-o-qui-aht of Canada. Intimate portraits of these men and women, youth and elders, emerge against the backdrop of their traditional practices on land and water. Though there are brutal realties?pollution, corruption, forced assimilation—Raygorodetsky's prose resonates with the positive, the adaptive, the spiritual—and hope.

344 pages, Paperback

Published December 11, 2018

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About the author

Gleb Raygorodetsky

3 books17 followers
For over two decades, Gleb has worked with and for Indigenous communities and their allies around the world on traditional resource management, traditional governance, sacred sites, climate change adaptation and mitigation, and biocultural diversity.

Born and raised in a small village on the Bering Sea coast of Kamchatka Peninsula, USSR, Gleb immigrated to the USA in 1988. He made his way from New York City to Fairbanks, Alaska, where he continued the wildlife biology studies he began back in the Soviet Union. Since then, he has traversed the Americas, from Canada’s Beaufort Sea to the Brazilian Amazon, from the Andes to the shores of Lake Superior, living and working with Indigenous peoples as diverse as Aleut fur seal hunters, Amazonian Caboclos pirarucu fishermen, and the Gwich’in caribou hunters. After earning his Ph.D. in Ecology, Evolution & Environmental Biology (2006, Columbia University), he has continued working with Indigenous groups around the world, from Papua New Guinea and Australia, to Peru and Finland.

Gleb has written and contributed to books, scientific and popular articles on Indigenous issues, traditional knowledge, and conservation in both English and Russian. He wrote Gwich’in Words about the Land – a book on the Indigenous ecological knowledge of Gwich’in people in the Northwest Territories in Canada that was published locally for all Gwich’in families. He has also written popular articles on Indigenous and environmental issues for various magazines, including Cultural Survival, Alternatives , and National Geographic.

Gleb is also a co-founder of Conversations with the Earth (CWE) – an indigenous-led multimedia initiative that amplifies indigenous voices in the global discourse on climate change. Over a million visitors saw CWE exhibits at National Museum of Denmark in Copenhagen, the Smithsonian’s National Museum of the American Indian in Washington DC, and United Nations Headquarters in New York.

In The Archipelago of Hope: Wisdom and Resilience from the Edge of Climate Change (Pegasus Books, New York, 2017) Gleb explores the inextricable links between Indigenous cultures and their traditional territories as the foundation for climate change resilience around the world.

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Displaying 1 - 30 of 34 reviews
Profile Image for Dave.
259 reviews42 followers
January 8, 2019
This book's central message is basically that indigenous cultures matter and that they should be protected, and I totally agree with that. This doesn't do the best job showing how non-indigenous people can learn from their good example though. The ways of semi-nomadic herders and fisherman can't exactly be scaled up for larger populations and denser living arrangements. Things like shifting cultivation agriculture should inspire the transition for our own agricultural systems but he doesn't even make that very clear. He makes it sound like the "fallow" periods when the forest is allowed to grow back are basically just left to nature to decide what happens. Most farmers who use shifting cultivation actually decide themselves which species of trees are going to grow back though. This means that it can be much more productive than most critics of "slash and burn" think it is, and therefore more fitting for modern farms to try. There's also too much respect given to pseudoscientific ideas in here. It kind of reminded me of Wade Davis's work, at times focusing more on weird provocative beliefs than on things that actually show the value of indigenous worldviews. A book like this should be more scientific, like Marvin Harris's Cows, Pigs, Wars and Witches. That one's got some questionable theories in it but I definitely prefer the way he handled the role of taboos, asking what benefits superstitions have had on cultures and whether people really knew why they were doing these things or if mistakes just happened to work out for them, etc. The most successful thing about this book is probably just the descriptions of the struggles indigenous cultures are facing trying to adapt to the damage the rest of us idiots have caused. I think he did a pretty good job with that at least.
Profile Image for Tasmin.
Author 8 books128 followers
March 26, 2020
4.5/5

Das Buch ist soooo interessant und hat meinen Horizont enorm erweitert. Ich bin sehr traurig, dass es nicht bekannter ist und nicht einmal eine deutsche Übersetzung hat. Es ist eine bereichernde und wichtige Lektüre, v.a. zu den aktuellen Zeiten. Ich liebe es so sehr!
Ich kann es euch wirklich nur soooo sehr ans Herz legen!

(0.5 Abzug gibts dafür, dass ich nicht immer 100% mitkam, was aber ggf am Hörbuch oder am Englischen lag)
71 reviews1 follower
July 27, 2019
Fascinating visits with indigenous groups, including the Skolt Sami and Nenets. Although I am awed by the resilience and attitudes of the people, I still struggle to see much hope for their lands and way of life.
Profile Image for Gleb.
Author 3 books17 followers
October 21, 2017
The Archipelago of Hope. Wisdom and Resilience from the Edge of Climate Change
By Gleb Raygorodetsky

Commentary by Dr. Nancy J. Turner, OC, OBC, PhD, FRSC, FLS
Professor Emeritus and 2015 Pierre Elliott Trudeau Fellow
School of Environmental Studies
University of Victoria,
Victoria, BC CANADA

October 18, 2017

“We are all Starstuff!” Renowned astronomer Carl Sagan would often remind his audiences of this. Around the same time, Navajo cultural expert and teacher Nancy Maryboy was explaining to her students that the Dene name for “star” is “my Ancient Ancestor from Whom I come.” These words, from two widely divergent traditions – science and Indigenous Knowledge – essentially convey the same information: we humans are an inextricable part of something much larger, much more complex, than we can even comprehend.

We are not separate from nature, but are simply one strand of it. And, whether we admit it or not, we are totally dependent on the integrity of our biological and physical environment for our survival. In The Archipelago of Hope, Dr. Gleb Raygorodetsky conveys this message so eloquently, from the teachings, observations and wisdom of Indigenous Peoples from around the globe. He writes from his own personal experiences as well – from the time when he was a young boy, growing up on the Kamschatka Peninsula, to the times spent living and working with Indigenous knowledge holders from many different places.

The Archipelago of Hope recounts many compelling stories and experiences, from the Tla-o-qui-aht Nuu-chah-nulth of the west coast of Vancouver Island, British Columbia, to the Karen mountain peoples of Myanmar, to the Skolt Sami of Finland and the Sapara of Ecuador. Raygorodetsky has witnessed firsthand how Indigenous Peoples share common ways of interacting with their environments. All hold an intimate knowledge of their local lands and waters, on which they and their ancestors have depended for countless generations, and all have developed deep, spiritual connections to place and to other species, grounded in respect for the land and its history, and for the ancestors, and reflecting responsibility for the well-being of future generations.

Most especially, all have shared similar experiences of ongoing environmental change. These peoples Raygorodetsky introduces us to – and other Indigenous and local peoples generally – have already been coping with and adapting to climate change for the past couple of decades. They are in the “front lines,” bearing the brunt of extreme weather events, droughts, rising temperatures, melting ice and permafrost, and deteriorating water quality, and all that these have entailed in terms of impacts on the plants and animals upon which they depend.

In the face of all that they have endured, however, they have managed to survive and to maintain and even strengthen their cultures and caretaking roles, with wisdom and with vision. Their capacity for governance, planning, decision-making and resilience, even with the loss and uncertainty, is the inspiration for this book. Dr. Raygorodetsky, in sharing their stories and his own, leaves us with a feeling of hope, gratitude and determination to do what each of us can, as individuals and collectively, to reverse the damage we are doing to the earth and, working with the immense capacity of natural systems and processes, to restore what has been lost. We could not have better partners to face this task together with than the Indigenous Peoples of the world.
1 review
February 4, 2020
"The Archipelago of Hope" is a timely and important book for a world in need of pragmatic and equitable solutions. Gleb Raygorodetsky brings together his extensive experience working with diverse indigenous ethnic groups and their allies around the world, into a highly informative and enjoyable work. Archipelago is full of inspiring narratives, insightful observations and hard facts.

As a researcher myself who has worked with indigenous ethnic groups in South America for the past five years, I found Gleb’s voice refreshing, well-researched and in line with my own personal experience. The focus on indigenous people as stewards of “Biocultural Diversity,” and stressing the complex, non-linear, resilient nature of their worldviews and traditional practices, particularly spoke to me.

Indigenous people are strategic global partners whose knowledge and territories should be respected and conserved. Appreciating and better understanding their profound traditions and worldviews can also help us as a global community improve and change paradigms that are causing tremendous damage around the globe. It is so great that there is now an eloquently written book that puts these critical points into a global perspective. Gleb does an amazing job both representing the diversity and depth of indigenous people - from the Amazon Rainforest to the Arctic Tundra to the rotational cultivations of Southeast Asia, and more - while maintaining throughout the book the fundamental commonalities that make their biocultural systems so important and sustainable.
4 reviews
July 14, 2018
Gleb has written a necessary book. In it he has distilled a lifetime of experience and many years of academic research.

Archipelago of Hope points us in a new direction at a time when our need for a new direction has become more than urgent. Modern concerns, the big question of anthropogenic ecosystem collapse and the threats to our civilisation of business-as-usual economics meet the perspectives of cultures whose core business has always been the stewardship of the land.

There is heartache, outrage, anxiety in the accounts of environmental devastation experienced by the indigenous peoples Gleb visits in these pages, but also hope and possibly inspiration to be had from witnessing their responses to the challenges we are all facing. This book believes in the possibility of a good future for the planet.

The style is lucid and grounded in observation, but it is also tender, spacious and engaging. A must for any concerned human being.
Profile Image for Boer (Catherine) Cui.
71 reviews
March 17, 2019
An engaging and well-written book detailing the experiences of five indigenous groups around the world as they adapt to a changing world not just in terms of the climate but also with respect to technology and globalization. One detail about the Karen people in Myanmar that stood out to me concerns their use of swidden cultivation, also known by its more derogatory name of "slash-and-burn". I was under the impression that this method of agriculture is a major cause of deforestation in the tropical places where it is practiced but this book was able to demonstrate that it is actually quite a sustainable way of growing crops. Of course, the Karen people are meticulous in caring for the forest so it remains to be seen whether swidden agriculture can work on a large scale to produce food for the world's population.
Profile Image for Leif.
1,968 reviews104 followers
November 11, 2018
A very decent book, this. Raygorodetsky travels between the Arctic and the Amazon, the Thai hills and the Canadian shores, to track Indigenous struggles for climate adaptation against the forces of commercial exploitation and governmental stupidity. It is heartfelt and well written, and it's clear that the author's sensitivity to the politics of environmental and indigenous issues informs the book in almost every way. Recommended, especially if you can find this from a library.
1 review
February 16, 2020
Eighty percent of global biological diversity is found in indigenous territories. Indigenous people were and have been stewards of the land for thousands of years. Plants, animals, birds, flowers, fish, mountains, rivers and streams are all part of their creation stories and form the basis of traditional practices. In the climate change literature, indigenous communities are often portrayed as being on the front-line of dealing with the impacts of climate change, much like the people who live in the small Pacific Islands in our region.

The Archipelago of Hope by Gleb Raygorodetsky was an unexpected present from my partner and ended up being such a wonderful read. Indeed, it was a breath of fresh air through the books I have read this year. Growing up in a remote indigenous territory as a young boy, Gleb spent much of his time with his father fishing and being outdoors. For the last two decades, he has worked closely with indigenous communities around the world on natural resource management and adaptation to the impacts of climate change. The trust and understanding between the indigenous communities Gleb visits and how he shares their stories is evident throughout the book.

Climate change is having a profound impact on indigenous communities around the world. Gleb shares stories about the loss of deer herding routes, salmon fisheries and glaciers. These climatic challenges are built on a foundation of historical forced assimilation of indigenous people into mainstream societies by governments, ripping communities away from their land and families. To make matters worse, the desire for economic growth continues to cloud policies and indigenous communities are still being torn from the land to make way for mines, infrastructure, agriculture and forestry operations.

The book is accessible to a wide audience. For a book that is about climate change, it is light on scientific knowledge but heavy on traditional knowledge and stories. Readers will also find the book incredibly vivid and rich with narrative that brings the remote communities and their landscapes to life. From ice-fishing for salmon under the Northern lights in Finland to receiving guidance from a shaman in the Altai Mountains to meeting forest defenders in the Ecuadorian Amazon to learning about swidden farming in Thailand and finally to protecting ancient forests and streams in British Columbia.

“The giant curtains of stella light rippling in the sky beneath the stars halt me in my tracks when, nice and warm, I head back to the cabin. The Northern lights are green, but the flashes of red along the edges of the aurora borealis give me pause” (pg 54)

(Reading this reminded me of seeing the Northern Lights in Iceland)


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I found Gleb’s book both sad and uplifting. Unlike other books in this genre, Gleb manages to balance vulnerability of indigenous communities to climate change with their incredible resilience. Instead of painting these communities as victims, he positions them as a group of people who are going to be best placed to survive. Key to this is the wealth of traditional knowledge that has been passed down through the generations. As such, Gleb argues that for any meaningful solutions to addressing climate change needs to include and incorporate indigenous knowledge and practices. To that effect, he offers a number of ways in which stronger, meaningful relationships can be formed with indigenous groups.

I highly recommend The Archipelago of Hope. It is easily one of the most beautiful and insightful books I have read this year. It made me pause and reflect on how I can improve and work closer with indigenous communities. Perhaps more profoundly, it made me think about what traditional knowledge and practices I can learn from my own background as a Fijian-Indian-Australian who practices Hinduism that will make me a better global citizen. I highly recommend The Archipelago of Hope.

“When we walk on this land, we do it slowly, with honour and respect and humility, because we tread on the dust of our ancestors” Levi Martin in The Archipelago of Hope (pg 249)
Profile Image for Andrew Blok.
417 reviews5 followers
May 20, 2018
In The Archipelago of Hope, Gleb Raygorodetsky travels across the globe to visit various indigenous people groups to document and understand how climate change is affecting them and the guidance their traditional way of life can offer to the wider world in the face of climate change. Raygorodetsky visits indigenous peoples of Scandinavia, the Amazon, the steppe region of central Asia, Thailand, and the coast of British Columbia and gives a clear picture of their livelihoods and the ways they have been forced to adapt. In some cases the outlook is grimmer than others, and every people group had challenges to face down, but largely the people he met had already begun to imagine and implement strategies for adaptation. Because the people he met were so closely tied to their traditional lifestyle and their traditional lifestyle relies on their relationship to the land, he almost always finds a robust and thoughtful response to the challenges already here. This is the most important take away from this book: Even though the challenges are great, a thoughtful and urgent response is imperative, and can be a powerful, life-giving testament to the importance of connection to the earth.
Profile Image for Eric.
141 reviews
October 27, 2018
I picked this up seeing it on the "new" shelf at the library. I never read a book on climate change and what motivated me to read it was to hear about climate change from another perspective neither scientific or political.

Peoples from across the globe not only illustrated the horrors of climate change and resilience to globalization and power, but a beautiful, positive experience of humans and their effort to maintain tradition, culture, family, and spiritual connection to the earth.

The stories the author shares were some of the most positive and hopeful I have read in a while, ordinary people preserving a unique way of life in a time where unique is rarely reported and seldom celebrated.

I am uncertain of what I can do for any of the book's heroes, but recognizing how one action can impact so many others might lead to my own "healing journey" of discovery and connection to the Earth.
Profile Image for Dylan.
218 reviews
Read
October 31, 2024
I'm reading through Lithub's 365 Books to Start Your Climate Change Library, a reading list in four sections (Classics, Science, Fiction & Poetry, and Ideas). This book is #17 of Part 4: The Ideas and #66 overall.

Highlights the responses of various indigenous groups to climate change-related issues. Feels like more a catalog of "coulda shoulda woulda" than of hope, as it's not abundantly clear how the approaches in the book are more broadly relevant/applicable, but the book still works as a document of the effects of climate change on a few specific populations.
323 reviews2 followers
October 8, 2019
This is a new (to me) approach to the problem of climate crisis. Raygorodetsky visits six different Indigenous communities from around the globe and learns from them how they have sustained their way of life for millennia, and how they are dealing with the challenges of climate change and other problems visited on them by neighbouring dominant cultures. I came away with a much deeper appreciation and understanding of the timeless wisdom of Indigenous peoples, and a desire to assist them in their struggles, and in their efforts to educate the rest of us. It may be our only hope of survival as a species on this planet. Not only is this a timely and important read; it is also a very engaging one, beautifully written. Highly recommended.
Profile Image for Josh Workman.
20 reviews3 followers
February 27, 2018
I really appreciated the beautiful storytelling and visual narrative that accompanied and troubling accounts of how climate change is impacting on indigenous communities and traditional lands around the globe. However, Gleb leaves readers with a feeling of curiously and motivation to more deeply understand how patterns of resilience and adaptation that these same indigenous communities have been living for millennia with a changing landscape. And what’s more, he does it in a way that acknowledges and emphasizes his role as a non-indigenous author, and provides thoughtful principles that others seeking to find allyship in a similar way can adopt.

Highly recommend this book.
Profile Image for andrea.
241 reviews5 followers
August 23, 2019
Really excellent. Very engaging account about some extreme climate change situations and solutions! You'll meet reindeer herdsmen in the Arctic Circle, Farmers using Swidden agriculture in Thailand, climate activists in the Amazon, and the Tlaoquiaht fisherman up in Vancouver's Clayoquet's Sound.... I wish maps were included for each section, but happy for the photos! Well paced, and thought provoking. All proceeds go directly to the groups portrayed!
Profile Image for Simon.
23 reviews
June 21, 2022
The main achievement of the book for me is the intimate detail he gets into amongst the different indigenous groups on which the book centres. Reading these, you really feel immersed in their daily lives and struggles. He’s also very successful at doing this without the typical flaw of it seeming very much from the outside - he’s woven into these cultures too
15 reviews
May 21, 2018
Chapter 7: Everything is Connected.

This is the core essence of the book that is conveyed with such clarity by the author through his experience in documenting Indigenous communities and their wisdom across the globe. Stories of profit and power at the cost of people and planet make a compelling case to pay heed to practices and values of these communities as we move in haste towards an unsustainable future.
Profile Image for Daniel Brigham-Ward.
9 reviews2 followers
November 22, 2020
A wonderful, mind-opening book. It was inspirational to read about indigenous knowledge and understanding of the environment and how it in many ways surpasses the science of 'advanced' civilisations.
Profile Image for E..
Author 1 book35 followers
July 25, 2022
An engaging travelogue to various indigenous communities to explore how they are developing resilience in the midst of a changing climate.
Profile Image for Anneke Alnatour.
892 reviews13 followers
February 7, 2018
I do not know why it took me 8 full weeks to pick up this book, but once I did, I was pleasantly surprised. The author visits with several indigenous peoples around the globe, and focuses how climate change has affected and still affects their lives, and threatens their future and existence. It is a compelling read, and the diverse stories give the reader a clue about the different ways climate change has influenced different ecosystems, global warming is not only about getting warmer, but also more unpredictable weather etc.etc. The book never felt belittling, nor did it victimize the indigenous peoples, but rather portrayed them as fully capable societies, that are often beter equipped in dealing with climate change than we, largely urbanized, societies are. Interesting, compelling and a must-read!
Profile Image for Colleen.
111 reviews11 followers
June 26, 2020
This was a fascinating and illuminating book. The resilience of Indigenous communities all over the world should be a model for the rest of us as we figure out how to live in partnership with our planet instead of the destructive cycle of exploitation and disaster we are engaged in now.
Profile Image for Betsy Myers.
329 reviews
Read
September 26, 2017
I won this book via Goodreads First Reads. I am an Early Childhood Education administrator and am excited to add this book to the lending library for parents and staff at my school. Thank you so much!
Profile Image for Paulo Reimann.
379 reviews1 follower
December 31, 2017
Awesome

Few words could describe this book. Such as : fabulous, fantastic, awesome, touching, mind changing, behavioral cornerstone. Read the book over the holidays and one point in time I just wanted to not reach the end. A piece of beauty.
Profile Image for Pasang.
36 reviews
March 17, 2023
The author highlights indigenous communities around the world that are in the frontlines of climate change: feeling the effects of a warming world, and fighting for the natural world. I found it incredibly helpful hearing about the author’s personal background, growing up in Kamachatka Peninsula, and living off the land; it helped cement his credibility. I was surprised to learn about the Skolt Sami in Finland, because generally in the media you only hear about black and brown indigenous people, and I think we need to highlight these stories as well to show that the issue is across the board. I especially found the chapter about the Karen people from Hin Lad Nai, Thailand informative: the Karen’s follow a time-tested tradition of shifting cultivation where they clear the forest to plant crops, and repeat the cycle, however academics for many years shunned this practice as “backwards”, but thankfully the Karens did not listen because today this land is flourishing. This is a perfect example of why indigenous communities are the best stewards of the environment, and so-called experts in the academia should take time to listen and learn. The chapter about the Tla-o-qui-aht people in Clayoquot Sound, Canada is another great example of why indigenous communities are so important to fight climate change. In 1993, the largest civil disobedience protests in the history of Canada took place, in which they successfully stopped clear-cutting in Calyoquot Sound. These actions helped establish the Meares Island Tribal Park, and have enabled the Tla-o-qui-aht people to once again live off the land as their ancestors.

I’m so thankful for the author, for his empathy, intelligence, and his commitment to sharing these stories. I really do believe that indigenous rights is environmental rights, because they are inextricably linked.

As a Tibetan, born in India, and raised in America I found this book personally enlightening. I know Tibetans who are indigenous people of Tibet are already feeling the impact of climate change.
3 reviews
September 26, 2018
I found it really difficult to finish this book. I picked it up expecting something that links science to indigenous peoples traditions. It included some science behind the native traditions, but if it was aiming to convince anyone, it should have used a lot more. If indigenous traditions really are what's going to help people navigate climate change, there should be no issue finding science to support the claim. This was more for advocating for indigenous rights around the world, which is also important, just not what I was expecting when I picked up the book. I would have liked to see how these traditions can be used to help a world full of 7.6 billion people adapt and mitigate climate change.

That being said, it was full of some interesting information that I didn't previously know about indigenous traditions around the world.
Profile Image for Jennifer.
368 reviews1 follower
August 21, 2023
This is a well-written series of memoir-travel experiences under the book’s titled theme. I recommend it for anyone who wants to start to get a feel for indigenous traditional knowledge, wisdom, and just plain ways of being and learning and knowing. Conviction. All in the context of today’s climate crisis.

One of the reasons I wanted to read this book is that I have direct personal experience with the people and places described in the Altai section. The author's experiences and recountings reflect my own knowledge and experience there, so it gives me confidence that the rest of the book is similarly accurate and reflective of the issues and people presented.
Profile Image for Lewis.
164 reviews8 followers
February 12, 2019
Super insightful and interesting book on the plights of Indigenous communities, both in regards to human causes and the subsequent environmental causes of this struggle. Definitely engrains a deeper appreciation and respect for Indigenous cultures, and I think that the book is incredibly important because of that. You can't imagine making the polluting decisions that some people make after reading this book, as the empathy for these cultures is overpowering.

However, I do think more information on the actual adaptation techniques was needed. I was expecting more knowledge regarding practices to combat climate change, and when they were included I found it very insightful. Overall, not what I was expecting, but the knowledge gained is without a doubt immensely valuable and eye-opening. I feel like I've traveled to these places and to these cultures that I never would have otherwise.
Profile Image for Jessie.
2,536 reviews33 followers
January 29, 2019
This is a collection of case studies/stories of the responses of different Indigenous groups around the world to climate change. But really tied into that is their response to all the changes they've had to make in response to settlers. We see groups dealing with oil pipelines, mining, and deforestation, and they have to respond both to those directly and to the climate change to which these contribute.

I was really impressed by the good flow of the book. Not because I didn't expect there to be common themes, but Raygorodetsky often chose to present the stories in orders that highlighted particular commonalities or differences among the Indigenous groups.

I caught a couple of mistakes in the Western science, but they're minor, and that's not the focus in any case.
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