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Divine Echoes: Reconciling Prayer With the Uncontrolling Love of God
Can we engage in prayer that is more effective, less harmful, and doesn't make God look bad?
Is petitionary prayer an archaic and superstitious practice better left for old-time religious folk? Is there a more effective method of praying that doesn't put all the responsibility on God? Theologian, therapist, and ordained pastor Mark Karris offers a first-of-a-kind book that explores petitionary prayer alongside theodicy, social justice, and personal moral responsibility.
Rich with theological wisdom and enormously practical, Divine Echoes reveals a revolutionary model of petitionary prayer that Karris refers to as "conspiring prayer." Filled with real-life examples and case studies, this book will inform and equip both individuals and churches to pray transformative and subversive prayers that will increase God's shalom in the world.
Is petitionary prayer an archaic and superstitious practice better left for old-time religious folk? Is there a more effective method of praying that doesn't put all the responsibility on God? Theologian, therapist, and ordained pastor Mark Karris offers a first-of-a-kind book that explores petitionary prayer alongside theodicy, social justice, and personal moral responsibility.
Rich with theological wisdom and enormously practical, Divine Echoes reveals a revolutionary model of petitionary prayer that Karris refers to as "conspiring prayer." Filled with real-life examples and case studies, this book will inform and equip both individuals and churches to pray transformative and subversive prayers that will increase God's shalom in the world.
262 pages, Paperback
Published January 23, 2018
45 people are currently reading
112 people want to read
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Displaying 1 - 15 of 15 reviews
July 16, 2020
Divine Echoes is worth reading. I have been involved with prayer my whole life. Saturated in it as a child growing up on a church pew and in prayer meetings as a preacher's kid. I have read many books on prayer. This one adds to the genre a balance to those who teach we can basically "tell" God what to do, claim the answer, and God will do it. Prayer isn't controlling God and a God of love isn't about controlling others. I have witnessed and experienced miraculous answers to prayer during my life. I wouldn't go as far as Karris goes in limiting an "uncontrolling" (that term and concept from Thomas Jay Oord) God's ability to act and answer. But Karris's emphasis on what used to be called "putting feet to our prayers" is essential for believers who want to be busy caring about what God cares about, doing what God is doing, working toward transformations that God is wanting to work. This book will get you to thinking more deeply about prayer. I surely hope, though, that we don't come to the place where the paralysis of analysis sets in and we give up on prayer. Surely our relational God desires that we talk to him, with him. Keep up the conversation with our ever-present, ever-loving, ever-working for good, God. Through honest, open prayer God can transform our hearts and spur us to action. God is love. And love is the most powerful force there is!
As a writer, editor, and publisher myself, I thought the writing could have used more polish. Much of it read, to me, like a master's thesis. But read it and see what you think.
As a writer, editor, and publisher myself, I thought the writing could have used more polish. Much of it read, to me, like a master's thesis. But read it and see what you think.
January 26, 2018
I would recommend this book for two kinds of people: those who are curious about praxis within frameworks of process thought, and for Pastors who have just recently came to terms with process thinking and are looking for new language to lead their congregations. For the former this book provides a great overview of how scripture is handled, community life is impacted, and how one begins to pray in petition ("conspiration"). For the latter, included at the end is a series of case studies and appendices which are useful.
Regrettably, while the book was good, I feel the the author was likely pushed by the publisher to stay within the 250ish page range for marketing purposes. I feel it would have been better as either a 50-70 page booklet exclusively handling petitionary prayer, or a 500 page treatise on practices for process thinkers. Especially in the early chapters there are a number of claims made which feel ungrounded and this would be especially felt by one unfamiliar with process thought. I believe the author is well capable of defending those claims, but was likely limited. Beyond this while railing against "Christian platitudes," the author uses many of his own, just with process language. Using phrases like "the non-coercive love of God" as if it were true ipso facto.
Other than those criticisms a quick, easy, and worthwhile read for anyone interested in the practical implications of process thought.
Regrettably, while the book was good, I feel the the author was likely pushed by the publisher to stay within the 250ish page range for marketing purposes. I feel it would have been better as either a 50-70 page booklet exclusively handling petitionary prayer, or a 500 page treatise on practices for process thinkers. Especially in the early chapters there are a number of claims made which feel ungrounded and this would be especially felt by one unfamiliar with process thought. I believe the author is well capable of defending those claims, but was likely limited. Beyond this while railing against "Christian platitudes," the author uses many of his own, just with process language. Using phrases like "the non-coercive love of God" as if it were true ipso facto.
Other than those criticisms a quick, easy, and worthwhile read for anyone interested in the practical implications of process thought.
February 19, 2020
While I am not an adherent or committed to process thought, I found this book rather interesting. I picked it up on the recommendation of Thomas Oord and I’m glad I did. If one should come upon this book lacking a background in process theology questions will certainly arise. The author seeks to avoid some of those questions by limiting his discussion to petitionary prayer. But even while limiting the discussion in that way questions will arise.… Did Jesus actually speak and calm the storm or is this a violation of uncontrolling love. The text is followed by three appendices with examples of so-called “conspiring prayer.”I have to say I found most of this conspiring to be uninspiring. The text itself is food for thought.
March 1, 2021
As a study resource, this is great. I didn’t give it five stars because I like responding to stories. I think printed out biblical examples also would’ve helped.
January 17, 2019
One of the most important components of our faith life is prayer, yet many of us take it for granted and follow the rituals we've observed or been taught without giving much thought to the mechanics of the process. In his absorbing and well-researched book, Mark Karris invites us to consider what we hope to achieve by praying. He examines the efficacy of petitionary prayer in particular for others who are distant, deconstructs the practice and then develops a new paradigm known as conspiring prayer giving practical case studies.
This book is more than "just" a book about prayer as it looks at the subject from a wider theological perspective delving into how we view God and examining theodicy. This makes for fascinating reading as well as adding weight to the author's proposal. The proof of the pudding is in the eating - has it changed the way I approach prayer? The answer is a resounding yes and for that I am grateful to Mark.
The author begins by relating personal tragedy in his life and how it led him to think about prayer. Explaining that he will examine prayers aimed at others who are distant rather than for yourself or for those with whom you have contact, he introduces the need to consider theodicy and describes the model he uses called "essential kenosis" from the work of Thomas Jay Oord.
Karris defines typical petitionary prayers as "talking to God and asking God to love in a specific manner in which God was not doing so beforehand" and sets out his doubts about their effectiveness. Questioning pastors and scholars, he received a variety of explanations which amounted to little more than "inspiring fluff". He proposes that Paul may not have thought through the mechanics of prayer instead, much like many Christians today, doing so out of tradition and for the comfort and community-building, for example when he asked for prayer from the Ephesians. Comparing our understanding of prayer with the progressive revelation of the doctrine of the Trinity, he believes that we can improve the way we approach this important practice.
When we ask God to do what we want out of love for those for whom we are praying, shouldn't we expect that God wants the same? The implication of petitionary prayers is that God is not already doing what we request until we ask, that he must be convinced or cajoled to act - we do not trust God to be doing what's best in each moment. Many prayers seem to go unanswered which leads us to wonder if they are ignored of if our prayers really make any difference. Does God require a certain amount of prayer before He helps? Does He bring about evil to encourage people to pray? Fortunately, not only do we have common sense, we have "Jesus sense" which alerts us that such contradictions to the revelation of God in Christ must be invalid.
Mark delves into the scientific studies of the benefits of prayer. While there is positive evidence for private prayer, the evidence for petitionary prayer is shaky. Worse, by passing responsibility for problems to God, it can discourage people from trying to be actively involved themselves. Prayers in the Bible can be categorised as wishing ("expressing inner longings"), agonising (a more emotional and passionate version of wishing), travailing (a form of agonising shared with the recipient(s) to strongly encourage them), exaggerated or legend (the miraculous outcome of the prayer is not historically accurate but designed to teach), apocalyptic (nonliteral to convey a dramatic truth, or a combination of the above. The author introduces "The Quadrilateral Hermeneutic of Love", based on "the fruit of the Spirit; the biblical definition of love; the only explicit parabolic picture Jesus
gave of God the Father, found in the story of the Prodigal Father; and the radical self-giving, others-empowering
life of Jesus Christ, who is the full revelation of God" as a way of approaching the depiction of prayer and as a more general interpretive lens for the Bible.
Introducing Oord's theodicy of essential kenosis the author suggests that the reason atheists experience the same "miracles" as praying Christians is not because they are lucky but because God's "perfect uncontrolling love" is universal. Emphasising that God is always immanent regardless of whether we pray, he says that God "cannot disregard the free will and agency of people" and He "cannot unilaterally control people and events" because to do so would be to "defy His own character". God created "the best of all possible worlds" in which randomness and lawlike regularities combine to offer the potential for love and goodness to flourish and He directs creation by inviting cooperation rather than overpowering. We can place complete trust in Him knowing that He will never harm for some "grand Machiavellian purpose". At every moment, He is seeking to meet our basic needs regardless of whether we or others pray and occasionally He will grant our discretionary (quality of life enhancing) wishes.
In light of this understanding of God's nature, the way in which we pray is transformed. Instead of praying to God, we pray with Him in a two-way conversation. "Conspiring prayer", as the author calls it, seeks to create a "collaborative dialogue". Instead of petitioning for unilateral divine intervention, we share our vision for those for whom we pray, longing and sometimes grieving with God. We listen not for a booming voice from heaven, but with open heart for the promptings of the Holy Spirit that move us as the "royal priesthood" to carry out God's mission in this world. We give thanks that in each moment God is doing the best He can, encouraging us as His "hands and feet" to play our part. Instead of requesting "Lord do this" or "Father heal that person" and discharging all responsibility to God, we ask how we can collaborate and what we can do to help.Through conspiring prayer we can reflect "the love and light of the Son in both word and deed" and become "divine echoes".
Disclosure: I was given the book to review.
This book is more than "just" a book about prayer as it looks at the subject from a wider theological perspective delving into how we view God and examining theodicy. This makes for fascinating reading as well as adding weight to the author's proposal. The proof of the pudding is in the eating - has it changed the way I approach prayer? The answer is a resounding yes and for that I am grateful to Mark.
The author begins by relating personal tragedy in his life and how it led him to think about prayer. Explaining that he will examine prayers aimed at others who are distant rather than for yourself or for those with whom you have contact, he introduces the need to consider theodicy and describes the model he uses called "essential kenosis" from the work of Thomas Jay Oord.
Karris defines typical petitionary prayers as "talking to God and asking God to love in a specific manner in which God was not doing so beforehand" and sets out his doubts about their effectiveness. Questioning pastors and scholars, he received a variety of explanations which amounted to little more than "inspiring fluff". He proposes that Paul may not have thought through the mechanics of prayer instead, much like many Christians today, doing so out of tradition and for the comfort and community-building, for example when he asked for prayer from the Ephesians. Comparing our understanding of prayer with the progressive revelation of the doctrine of the Trinity, he believes that we can improve the way we approach this important practice.
When we ask God to do what we want out of love for those for whom we are praying, shouldn't we expect that God wants the same? The implication of petitionary prayers is that God is not already doing what we request until we ask, that he must be convinced or cajoled to act - we do not trust God to be doing what's best in each moment. Many prayers seem to go unanswered which leads us to wonder if they are ignored of if our prayers really make any difference. Does God require a certain amount of prayer before He helps? Does He bring about evil to encourage people to pray? Fortunately, not only do we have common sense, we have "Jesus sense" which alerts us that such contradictions to the revelation of God in Christ must be invalid.
Mark delves into the scientific studies of the benefits of prayer. While there is positive evidence for private prayer, the evidence for petitionary prayer is shaky. Worse, by passing responsibility for problems to God, it can discourage people from trying to be actively involved themselves. Prayers in the Bible can be categorised as wishing ("expressing inner longings"), agonising (a more emotional and passionate version of wishing), travailing (a form of agonising shared with the recipient(s) to strongly encourage them), exaggerated or legend (the miraculous outcome of the prayer is not historically accurate but designed to teach), apocalyptic (nonliteral to convey a dramatic truth, or a combination of the above. The author introduces "The Quadrilateral Hermeneutic of Love", based on "the fruit of the Spirit; the biblical definition of love; the only explicit parabolic picture Jesus
gave of God the Father, found in the story of the Prodigal Father; and the radical self-giving, others-empowering
life of Jesus Christ, who is the full revelation of God" as a way of approaching the depiction of prayer and as a more general interpretive lens for the Bible.
Introducing Oord's theodicy of essential kenosis the author suggests that the reason atheists experience the same "miracles" as praying Christians is not because they are lucky but because God's "perfect uncontrolling love" is universal. Emphasising that God is always immanent regardless of whether we pray, he says that God "cannot disregard the free will and agency of people" and He "cannot unilaterally control people and events" because to do so would be to "defy His own character". God created "the best of all possible worlds" in which randomness and lawlike regularities combine to offer the potential for love and goodness to flourish and He directs creation by inviting cooperation rather than overpowering. We can place complete trust in Him knowing that He will never harm for some "grand Machiavellian purpose". At every moment, He is seeking to meet our basic needs regardless of whether we or others pray and occasionally He will grant our discretionary (quality of life enhancing) wishes.
In light of this understanding of God's nature, the way in which we pray is transformed. Instead of praying to God, we pray with Him in a two-way conversation. "Conspiring prayer", as the author calls it, seeks to create a "collaborative dialogue". Instead of petitioning for unilateral divine intervention, we share our vision for those for whom we pray, longing and sometimes grieving with God. We listen not for a booming voice from heaven, but with open heart for the promptings of the Holy Spirit that move us as the "royal priesthood" to carry out God's mission in this world. We give thanks that in each moment God is doing the best He can, encouraging us as His "hands and feet" to play our part. Instead of requesting "Lord do this" or "Father heal that person" and discharging all responsibility to God, we ask how we can collaborate and what we can do to help.Through conspiring prayer we can reflect "the love and light of the Son in both word and deed" and become "divine echoes".
Disclosure: I was given the book to review.
June 29, 2019
I have always had difficulty with petitionary prayer because if God already knows everything and loves everyone, it seems I am not trusting God when he already knows. The church I attend prayers are almost all petitionary, and at some level I felt this was not quite right. I have read several books on prayers backed by the scripture, but it not reconcile the conundrum that the harder I tried, the less surrender and authenticity I felt.
Karris is the first book I have read that addresses the great danger petitionary prayer can have on our hearts and our actions. He goes into great detail to explain his theological reimagining of petitionary prayer. His main point is that by believing that God can and does control every moment, we will either end up hating God or not owning our part in His creation.
He promotes petitionary prayer be reframed to what he calls conspiring prayer. This type of prayer looks very much like petitionary prayer, but is vastly different because the Bible is a story where God is always seeking partners to bring His Heaven (Shalom) to earth.
The only thing I didn't like about this book is that the author was a bit repetitive on driving his point home. I highly recommend this book to anyone who struggles to pray with authenticity. And it is a huge paradigm shift to believe that God is not a tyrant, but is in continual community for all who accept his invitation to authentic love and action.
Karris is the first book I have read that addresses the great danger petitionary prayer can have on our hearts and our actions. He goes into great detail to explain his theological reimagining of petitionary prayer. His main point is that by believing that God can and does control every moment, we will either end up hating God or not owning our part in His creation.
He promotes petitionary prayer be reframed to what he calls conspiring prayer. This type of prayer looks very much like petitionary prayer, but is vastly different because the Bible is a story where God is always seeking partners to bring His Heaven (Shalom) to earth.
The only thing I didn't like about this book is that the author was a bit repetitive on driving his point home. I highly recommend this book to anyone who struggles to pray with authenticity. And it is a huge paradigm shift to believe that God is not a tyrant, but is in continual community for all who accept his invitation to authentic love and action.
February 12, 2018
Most thought-provoking book I've read in a while
I'm still processing what I just read, it raised more questions than it answered (which is a good thing). So much of it seemed like information I already knew on a deep level but somehow forgot. It's difficult to let go of the image of a controlling God but Mark argues a convincing case. I'll be thinking about this book for some time and it has already changed the way I pray. warning: only read if you're ready for deconstructing petitionary prayer.
I'm still processing what I just read, it raised more questions than it answered (which is a good thing). So much of it seemed like information I already knew on a deep level but somehow forgot. It's difficult to let go of the image of a controlling God but Mark argues a convincing case. I'll be thinking about this book for some time and it has already changed the way I pray. warning: only read if you're ready for deconstructing petitionary prayer.
October 30, 2018
Mark Karris thoroughly wrestles with the issues that surround traditional views on petitionary prayer. He deconstructs and reconstructs prayer through the lens of an uncontrolling God and provides a framework for ‘conspiring prayer’ in which believers join God in both relationship and action. The reader, if willing (and even if partially disagreeing), is provided a path to a paradigm shift which will enable them to embrace the uncontrolling character and power of God. This book has potential for transforming the prayers of the church and believers.
Want to read
July 24, 2020Not entirely sure if I want to read this book, but I heard about it at this fantastic podcast.
The ideas are certainly interesting, though in the end he became (in the interview) a bit too idealistic, and (in my view) unrealistic. Almost backtracking to his former idealistic views that he said he had been deconstructing.
https://open.spotify.com/episode/2mjA...
The ideas are certainly interesting, though in the end he became (in the interview) a bit too idealistic, and (in my view) unrealistic. Almost backtracking to his former idealistic views that he said he had been deconstructing.
https://open.spotify.com/episode/2mjA...
March 31, 2018
Good Exhortation
Excellent look at shalom and not just praying coercive
Prayers to God that violate a person's free will. Remembering that God is love and this he cannot override a person's will, and instead modeling prayer that partners with God.
Excellent look at shalom and not just praying coercive
Prayers to God that violate a person's free will. Remembering that God is love and this he cannot override a person's will, and instead modeling prayer that partners with God.
July 12, 2019
This is a must read to understand prayer. Mark does a great job of explaining the understanding that God is actually not controlling and that changes how we pray.
May 5, 2021
Dear God,
I pray that you coercively show Mark G. Karris the error of his ways so that he stops his abhorrent overuse of the word "shalom". His flower-power church-jargon in general could use some adjustment.
Amen
I pray that you coercively show Mark G. Karris the error of his ways so that he stops his abhorrent overuse of the word "shalom". His flower-power church-jargon in general could use some adjustment.
Amen
January 31, 2023
Enjoyed a group study with this book. We also had the privilege of meeting the author during a Zoom meeting and he answered our questions. We had a great discussion with him.
October 2, 2024
Answered so many questions I’ve had and as such is a book I’ve been looking for for years.
Displaying 1 - 15 of 15 reviews