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The Spy Chronicles: RAW, ISI and the Illusion of Peace
Pointing to the horizon where the sea and sky are joined, he says, 'It is only an illusion because they can't really meet, but isn't it beautiful, this union which isn't really there.' - SAADAT HASAN MANTO
Sometime in 2016, a series of dialogues took place which set out to find a meeting ground, even if only an illusion, between A.S. Dulat and Asad Durrani. One was a former chief of RAW, India's external intelligence agency, the other of ISI, its Pakistani counterpart. As they could not meet in their home countries, the conversations, guided by journalist Aditya Sinha, took place in cities like Istanbul, Bangkok and Kathmandu. On the table were subjects that have long haunted South Asia, flashpoints that take lives regularly. It was in all ways a deep dive into the politics of the subcontinent, as seen through the eyes of two spymasters. Among the subjects: Kashmir, and a missed opportunity for peace; Hafiz Saeed and 26/11; Kulbhushan Jadhav; surgical strikes; the deal for Osama bin Laden; how the US and Russia feature in the India-Pakistan relationship; and how terror undermines the two countries' attempts at talks. When the project was first mooted, General Durrani laughed and said nobody would believe it even if it was written as fiction. At a time of fraught relations, this unlikely dialogue between two former spy chiefs from opposite sides-a project that is the first of its kind-may well provide some answers.
Sometime in 2016, a series of dialogues took place which set out to find a meeting ground, even if only an illusion, between A.S. Dulat and Asad Durrani. One was a former chief of RAW, India's external intelligence agency, the other of ISI, its Pakistani counterpart. As they could not meet in their home countries, the conversations, guided by journalist Aditya Sinha, took place in cities like Istanbul, Bangkok and Kathmandu. On the table were subjects that have long haunted South Asia, flashpoints that take lives regularly. It was in all ways a deep dive into the politics of the subcontinent, as seen through the eyes of two spymasters. Among the subjects: Kashmir, and a missed opportunity for peace; Hafiz Saeed and 26/11; Kulbhushan Jadhav; surgical strikes; the deal for Osama bin Laden; how the US and Russia feature in the India-Pakistan relationship; and how terror undermines the two countries' attempts at talks. When the project was first mooted, General Durrani laughed and said nobody would believe it even if it was written as fiction. At a time of fraught relations, this unlikely dialogue between two former spy chiefs from opposite sides-a project that is the first of its kind-may well provide some answers.
415 pages, Kindle Edition
Published May 21, 2018
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About the author
A.S. Dulat
9 books26 followersAMARJIT SINGH DULAT served as the head of the Research and Analysis Wing (R&AW), India’s spy agency, under Prime Minister A.B. Vajpayee. He later joined Vajpayee’s Prime Minister’s Office (PMO), where his job was to ‘monitor, manage and direct’ the government of India’s peace initiative in Kashmir.
Dulat was born in Sialkot, Punjab, in December 1940. With India’s Partition, his father Justice Shamsher Singh Dulat, ICS, was posted to Delhi. Dulat was educated in Bishop Cotton School, Shimla and Punjab University, Chandigarh, after which he joined the Indian Police Service (IPS) in 1965, and then the Intelligence Bureau (IB) in 1969, where he served for almost thirty years. At IB he headed the Kashmir Group during the turbulent 1990s till he joined and headed R&AW.
Since leaving the government in 2004, Dulat has been active on the track two circuit, and has visited Pakistan. He has co-authored a paper with former Pakistani intelligence chief Lt. Gen. Asad Durrani on the benefits of intelligence cooperation between India and Pakistan.
During service, Dulat accumulated a vast reservoir of goodwill with Kashmiris of all shades. As Jane’s Intelligence Digest put it in 2001: ‘Well known for his social skills, Dulat prefers dialogue to clandestine manoeuvres. He has built up an impressive network of personal contacts in Kashmir including militants.’ A decade after retirement, that goodwill remains intact, with Kashmiris dropping in on him and his wife Paran at their Friends Colony house in Delhi, to share gossip, information, and advice.
Dulat was born in Sialkot, Punjab, in December 1940. With India’s Partition, his father Justice Shamsher Singh Dulat, ICS, was posted to Delhi. Dulat was educated in Bishop Cotton School, Shimla and Punjab University, Chandigarh, after which he joined the Indian Police Service (IPS) in 1965, and then the Intelligence Bureau (IB) in 1969, where he served for almost thirty years. At IB he headed the Kashmir Group during the turbulent 1990s till he joined and headed R&AW.
Since leaving the government in 2004, Dulat has been active on the track two circuit, and has visited Pakistan. He has co-authored a paper with former Pakistani intelligence chief Lt. Gen. Asad Durrani on the benefits of intelligence cooperation between India and Pakistan.
During service, Dulat accumulated a vast reservoir of goodwill with Kashmiris of all shades. As Jane’s Intelligence Digest put it in 2001: ‘Well known for his social skills, Dulat prefers dialogue to clandestine manoeuvres. He has built up an impressive network of personal contacts in Kashmir including militants.’ A decade after retirement, that goodwill remains intact, with Kashmiris dropping in on him and his wife Paran at their Friends Colony house in Delhi, to share gossip, information, and advice.
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Displaying 1 - 30 of 169 reviews
May 30, 2018
The two "authors", A. S. Dulat & Assad Durrani, have been at the helm of their respective country's intelligence agencies; therefore the vantage point they provide is rare, and an absolute delight for the reader.
The intent of the book is made clear in the last chapter: "Yeh Deewanagi Kab Khatam Hogi?". As A. B. Vajpayee had asked, when does the madness between India & Pakistan end. The authors have tried to forage a way ahead, by way of finding out commonalities, and areas where the two nations can start to cooperate. As a result, this book is inadequately hawkish. There are times when I vehemently disagreed with what the authors had to say - particularly in regard to flashpoints like 26/11 or Kulbhushan Jadhav.
The book is not to be read literally. A literal reading of what the authors have to say would reveal something quite different from what they intend to say. To really enjoy the narration, it is necessary to read between the lines, and notice which questions are ignored, or sidestepped, and which questions are responded to by the standard, run-of-the-mill answers.
At times, the obfuscation attempted is so obvious, or the rhetoric they resort to so clichéd, that it is clear to those who read between the lines that the real picture is murky. This obfuscation & rhetoric is natural; after all, you can't expect the heads of R&AW and ISI to pour their hearts out in a book. An excellent example of this is when the mediator, the journalist Sinha, asks both the authors that if there can be intelligence exchanges, why can't terrorism stop? The question is deftly side-stepped.
The conversations here provide a great context to the entire matrix of India-Pakistan relations. It provides an excellent study of the geo-politics & security issues facing the Indian subcontinent. In their discussions, the authors touch a variety of issues including Kashmir, Bangladesh, Baluchistan, Iran, Afghanistan, the US-Russia-China, people-to-people relations and the leaderships of the respective countries.
Besides, there is much wisdom in what these two individuals say - for instance, A. S. Dulat repeatedly highlights that problems can be resolved only by listening to each other. Insisting that one's perspective is the only correct perspective is counter-productive. At the same time, he acknowledges that India's "pen" is, and has to be, backed by a mightier "sword". Another pearl of wisdom is when he points out that one should not *state* the obvious if it is going to hurt anyone.
The sole short-coming of the book is that, sometimes, the narration is choppy. After all, the book is a chronicle of the conversations that the two have shared. It does not always make for smooth prose.
Overall, a fascinating, almost un-put-down-able book.
The intent of the book is made clear in the last chapter: "Yeh Deewanagi Kab Khatam Hogi?". As A. B. Vajpayee had asked, when does the madness between India & Pakistan end. The authors have tried to forage a way ahead, by way of finding out commonalities, and areas where the two nations can start to cooperate. As a result, this book is inadequately hawkish. There are times when I vehemently disagreed with what the authors had to say - particularly in regard to flashpoints like 26/11 or Kulbhushan Jadhav.
The book is not to be read literally. A literal reading of what the authors have to say would reveal something quite different from what they intend to say. To really enjoy the narration, it is necessary to read between the lines, and notice which questions are ignored, or sidestepped, and which questions are responded to by the standard, run-of-the-mill answers.
At times, the obfuscation attempted is so obvious, or the rhetoric they resort to so clichéd, that it is clear to those who read between the lines that the real picture is murky. This obfuscation & rhetoric is natural; after all, you can't expect the heads of R&AW and ISI to pour their hearts out in a book. An excellent example of this is when the mediator, the journalist Sinha, asks both the authors that if there can be intelligence exchanges, why can't terrorism stop? The question is deftly side-stepped.
The conversations here provide a great context to the entire matrix of India-Pakistan relations. It provides an excellent study of the geo-politics & security issues facing the Indian subcontinent. In their discussions, the authors touch a variety of issues including Kashmir, Bangladesh, Baluchistan, Iran, Afghanistan, the US-Russia-China, people-to-people relations and the leaderships of the respective countries.
Besides, there is much wisdom in what these two individuals say - for instance, A. S. Dulat repeatedly highlights that problems can be resolved only by listening to each other. Insisting that one's perspective is the only correct perspective is counter-productive. At the same time, he acknowledges that India's "pen" is, and has to be, backed by a mightier "sword". Another pearl of wisdom is when he points out that one should not *state* the obvious if it is going to hurt anyone.
The sole short-coming of the book is that, sometimes, the narration is choppy. After all, the book is a chronicle of the conversations that the two have shared. It does not always make for smooth prose.
Overall, a fascinating, almost un-put-down-able book.
June 4, 2018
Highly over rated book. The uproar which was created, was completely un called for. Assad Durrani & A.S. Dulat, talk nothing but a complete non sense. There was nothing in the book, which we didn't know before.
Durrani appears to be naive throughout the book, in a futile bid to portray his personal soft image and try to portray himself as an intellectual, philosopher, military strategist & knows all sort of a guy.
Irony is unmistakable, when Mr. Durrani & Mr. Dulat, was at the helm of the affairs, they did nothing to pursue the agenda of peace, which they are chanting throughout the book. why, all officers, when they go out of office comes up with such stupid assumptions and ideas?
India remains the biggest enemy of Pakistan & vice versa. The idea of federation, with free borders & single currency, can only be called a dream of a certified idiot.
The fact of the mater is, Indian hegemonic approach in sub continent, is not hidden from anyone, and it's only Pakistan which is standing against this approach.
Kashmir being at the nucleus of our relationship, can't be sorted out like this. Both establishments do not want to solve this problem.
I am completely not being able to understand why Mr. Durrani, didn't talk about the terrorism which India was and is funding in Pakistan? Not a single word! Unbelievable! Durrani portrays Pakistan is the only one in this context who is creating problems for India and India is not doing anything against us! He didn't even counter the Dulat's argument about surgical strike.
Durrani appears to be naive throughout the book, in a futile bid to portray his personal soft image and try to portray himself as an intellectual, philosopher, military strategist & knows all sort of a guy.
Irony is unmistakable, when Mr. Durrani & Mr. Dulat, was at the helm of the affairs, they did nothing to pursue the agenda of peace, which they are chanting throughout the book. why, all officers, when they go out of office comes up with such stupid assumptions and ideas?
India remains the biggest enemy of Pakistan & vice versa. The idea of federation, with free borders & single currency, can only be called a dream of a certified idiot.
The fact of the mater is, Indian hegemonic approach in sub continent, is not hidden from anyone, and it's only Pakistan which is standing against this approach.
Kashmir being at the nucleus of our relationship, can't be sorted out like this. Both establishments do not want to solve this problem.
I am completely not being able to understand why Mr. Durrani, didn't talk about the terrorism which India was and is funding in Pakistan? Not a single word! Unbelievable! Durrani portrays Pakistan is the only one in this context who is creating problems for India and India is not doing anything against us! He didn't even counter the Dulat's argument about surgical strike.
August 23, 2019
The authors be Court martial Ed not because of so called writing security issues but by writing such a rubbish book thus wasting the paper.a 5 minute documentary would have been a due time to give to those ideaz given in the book.
Waste of time nothing fruitful...
Waste of time nothing fruitful...
November 19, 2019
Extremely random and mediocre talk between two former spymasters. Simple, mediated conversation, with no new information shared. I wonder why Asad Durrani had to face inquiry for "violating" the military code of conduct.
My favorite part from the book has to be where Durrani told, he got clearance for Military Intelligence posting after a neighborhood Chowkidaar assured the agency agents of his good character. Seriously?
The book has it's heart at right place, but the contents seemed all over the place, and the story rather tepid. I was expecting some insider view of the spy organizations, how they work, and the things and facts general public don't know about. Instead, what you get is, these two spooks steering clear of going into depth of any controversial topic, mostly agreeing with each other (which was oh-so-cringe), lacking narrative energy, and any flow or insights. The way they mention some characters and speak, seem like they have a little disdain for common folk and kind of condescending attitude.
I needed more policy information, not trivial stuff.
My favorite part from the book has to be where Durrani told, he got clearance for Military Intelligence posting after a neighborhood Chowkidaar assured the agency agents of his good character. Seriously?
The book has it's heart at right place, but the contents seemed all over the place, and the story rather tepid. I was expecting some insider view of the spy organizations, how they work, and the things and facts general public don't know about. Instead, what you get is, these two spooks steering clear of going into depth of any controversial topic, mostly agreeing with each other (which was oh-so-cringe), lacking narrative energy, and any flow or insights. The way they mention some characters and speak, seem like they have a little disdain for common folk and kind of condescending attitude.
I needed more policy information, not trivial stuff.
April 5, 2024
How I wish this opportunity to produce the opinions of ex ISI and ex RAW chiefs could have been written with a more detailed and nuanced analysis rather than ramblings of two retired "spooks". What I am amazed at is the number of meetings across the world under various seminars and " track II" etc. There are various names in the book of recent diplomats and personalities and the opinions of these two chiefs on the individuals in particular contexts. Despite the limited depth of the content, the book has been written in a style of discussion transcription that results in light reading and quick reading. the content doesn't tax your mind as it flows. That I think is the key weakness of the book. How I wish the could have been developed into a framework of structured evolution with more depth and nuances that potentially may be debated critically. In the current form the so called operational framework for evolution is reduced to ramblings of opinions and "I attended that and we said that .. ". Why the ex Government officers write as if they are always in control and it is just because of them world operates. High Expectations from the book - however NOT Met. Book has already started various controversies and rumblings in the corridors of power - may be the sales of the book will increase !
June 13, 2018
"the old Kashmiri communist Mohammed Yousuf Tarigami said, seeking a ‘security solution’ to a fundamentally political problem will not succeed. Finding a way out of any mess requires a willingness to listen. It connects us to Kashmir and to ourselves as well. But we are so caught up in the noise around us that very few have the time to listen. Sentiments at times are more illuminating than facts. Empathy is the key to understanding Kashmir"
This book is about hope. India and Pakistan can work together on ways which can bring peace in South Asia. Or maybe in future make a confederation. It seems impossible now, but ideals remain impossible until they're realized.
Two former spy chiefs sit together and start talking about issues prevailing in the South Asian region. They discuss nearly every important thing related to Pakistan and india, including Kashmir issue, Balochistan, terrorism, the role of intelligence agencies, the relationship of Pakistan and India with super powers, new great game in south Asia and personalities who have played an important role in Indo-pak relations.
Both of them have tried to remain unbiased as much as they could but limitations are always there. For me, it was interesting to know how things work at higher level. Common people don't know what is going on behind the scene.
Many feasible solutions are also given like people to people contact, porous borders, cultural and educational exchange programs, meetings of politicians and military men and finding political solutions, instead of military solutions. I hope by following these steps we can bring peace in our region. Then, we can use money for human development, instead of spending it on security.
Durrani aptly said: "We can consider moving to a confederation, and then to a united India. How can we reverse the cycle? At least discuss it. Europeans have been doing so for a long time. It took half a century to achieve the ‘united Europe’ imagined by Churchill"
This book is about hope. India and Pakistan can work together on ways which can bring peace in South Asia. Or maybe in future make a confederation. It seems impossible now, but ideals remain impossible until they're realized.
Two former spy chiefs sit together and start talking about issues prevailing in the South Asian region. They discuss nearly every important thing related to Pakistan and india, including Kashmir issue, Balochistan, terrorism, the role of intelligence agencies, the relationship of Pakistan and India with super powers, new great game in south Asia and personalities who have played an important role in Indo-pak relations.
Both of them have tried to remain unbiased as much as they could but limitations are always there. For me, it was interesting to know how things work at higher level. Common people don't know what is going on behind the scene.
Many feasible solutions are also given like people to people contact, porous borders, cultural and educational exchange programs, meetings of politicians and military men and finding political solutions, instead of military solutions. I hope by following these steps we can bring peace in our region. Then, we can use money for human development, instead of spending it on security.
Durrani aptly said: "We can consider moving to a confederation, and then to a united India. How can we reverse the cycle? At least discuss it. Europeans have been doing so for a long time. It took half a century to achieve the ‘united Europe’ imagined by Churchill"
October 8, 2018
There is a marked see-saw pattern in the relationship between India and Pakistan. Whenever hope begins to build up as a result of a bold initiative from a determined leader, extremist elements in Pakistan find a way to scuttle the momentum already built up. When Vajpayee made the famous bus journey to Lahore, the Pakistani military responded with an invasion of Kargil and attacks on the Indian Parliament and Jammu and Kashmir Legislative Assembly buildings. When things began to improve under Manmohan Singh, 26/11 happened in which a group of terrorists sponsored by and trained in Pakistan attacked civilian targets in Mumbai, gunning down 168 people in a matter of a few hours. When Narendra Modi made an unannounced visit on the occasion of Premier Nawaz Sharif’s granddaughter’s wedding, the belligerent wings of the Pakistani establishment sabotaged the goodwill by making brazen suicide attacks against Indian military camps at Pathankot and Uri. Evidently, there is something missing in the wider picture presented by government sources, a crucial missing link without which relations with Pakistan could not be normalized. Backchannel, or Track II diplomacy of using non-governmental, informal or unofficial contacts and activities between private citizens are regularly employed to supplement efforts through official channels. Here, two of the most leading spymasters of both countries – Amarjeet Singh Dulat of India and Asad Durrani of Pakistan – come together and discuss the issues pestering the countries by sitting across a table. Dulat was Secretary of the Research and Analysis Wing (RAW) in 1999-2000, while General Durrani was Director-General of the Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) in 1990-91. Their comments and speeches are codified by Aditya Sinha, a writer and journalist living on the outskirts of Delhi.
The book is endowed with two introductions penned by each participant. It is written as a dialog between Dulat and Durrani. This was a technique used by authors to deflect criticism from them while handling potentially incendiary subjects. Galileo’s book ‘The Two Chief World Systems’, in which he declared that the earth goes round the sun is one such volume. It examined the merits and defects of world systems in which the sun and the earth were at the centre of the universe respectively. This being a highly controversial topic, Galileo was forced to go for the cover of an alias in the character of a scholar portrayed in the book. But Sinha has no aliases. Whatever opinion given in the book is attributed to either of the two dignitaries, who are also very good friends. They have worked together in the past too, with two joint projects on intelligence cooperation and on Kashmir. An interesting feature of the subcontinent is that the elite of both countries interact freely with each other either in bouts of overseas education or training programs. Needless to say, the dialog is amply lubricated with liberal doses of Scotch. One wonders why this camaraderie at the top is not percolated down to lower levels. Sinha narrates a case in which Durrani’s son was saved from a nasty bureaucratic deadlock in Mumbai in 2015 when he visited that city which was not in his approved visa regimen. He was not allowed to board an international flight to Germany. The proper intervention by Dulat cleared the situation. However, his assertion that there is little hostility towards Pakistan outside Delhi is just wishful thinking. Dulat has seen only the upper circles of Indian society.
Kashmir, the central issue that divides the two countries, gets ample attention in the dialog. If we look at the history of partition, this too may be thought of only as a recent manifestation of the fundamental divide – whether a Muslim majority province can stay under a Hindu majority nation. Kashmir issue began only in 1947, but the Indian and Pakistani nations – if we accept Jinnah’s argument for a while – were already divided even while living under British hegemony. It is also fairly certain that once the Kashmir issue is amicably resolved, some other business would take its place as a bone of contention. Here, both participants agree that a forward movement is required. Resumption of trade and encouragement of people-to-people contact between the two parts of Kashmir are advocated. Kashmir comes up for discussion in most of the chapters, but no coherent view is presented by anybody. The unfocussed discussion points to a change in US attitude to Kashmir post-9/11. Freedom fighters became terrorists overnight and its ambassador at Delhi forbade its officials from visiting Srinagar.
Dulat and Durrani were at the heads of their profession of espionage, but those who expect them to open up too much are in for disappointment – they are too seasoned professionals for that. Dulat tantalizingly mentions that RAW gave an intelligence report to Pakistan that might have saved the life of President Pervez Musharraf in 2003, but does not elaborate on it. Not to be outdone, Durrani lets out the secret that Nawaz Sharif was informed of the Kargil invasion masterminded by Musharraf. Kargil region came in Indian hands after the 1971 war and Musharraf always wanted to get it back. Even with his belligerence, Durrani estimates that Musharraf’s tenure was the best in mutual relations. Durrani is unimpressed by the surgical strike by India in 2016. By that term, he means an operation that drops Special Forces some 200 km behind enemy lines to attack a specific object. This was not the case and the target was only a few hundred yards across the border. He then suggests that it might have been a choreographed strike with concurrence from Pakistan. In any case, it can only be termed as a ‘modified hot pursuit’. The part played by the Media is criticized by both experts who term it as an enemy of peace. Modi government is hawkish and muscular and Durrani comments that it would be compelled to respond to force with force under the perpetual glare of the Media. Durrani also guesses that Osama bin Laden might probably have been handed over by Pakistan. It is amazing that even under the spell of a decent amount of alcohol, the former spy chiefs manage to keep their mouths shut when strategic interests are at stake. They divulge only those details that are already known and available from other sources.
Durrani served in the army while Dulat was in the police service. Both of them harbor an emotion akin to contempt for professional diplomats who are tasked with the burden of maintaining good relations between nations. They are said to be unnecessarily strident in their deals. In the end, it might ultimately be the soldiers who have to answer for the follies of the diplomats in the battlefields. As a soldier, Durrani acknowledges the inevitability of war in certain circumstances. To completely rule out war is definitely not feasible. While it must not be the instrument of policy, it should be retained as an extension of it. Without war, there are aims that cannot be achieved. Bangladesh would not have been won without war.
The book contains a good discussion on the means to go forward in normalizing India-Pakistan relations. Dulat’s suggestions stress only on increasing people to people contacts and are superfluous, considering the religious makeup of the two countries. While India maintains a large Muslim minority, Pakistan has virtually eliminated its Hindu minority by murder, arson, conversion and forced migration to India. The Muslims of both countries might thus find their relatives living in the other country, but not the Hindus. It is hence evident that more popular interactions serve the interests of only one community. Without mindful of the consequences of opening up India indiscriminately to Pakistanis of all sorts, Dulat proposes to allow more Pakistani actors in Bollywood, more Pakistani players in IPL, easier visa norms and softer borders. He recommends nothing Pakistan should do in return. It is disappointing that Dulat is unable to think of anything substantial and his ideas hint at the disaster it would invite in India if he was allowed to carry on negotiations with our western neighbour. It is suggestive that Durrani does not share any such absurd notions. He proposes the setting up of a consultative body to resolve bilateral conflicts as and when they arise. This seems to be a better and genuine idea than that of Dulat’s preposterous pitch for a union of the two Punjabs in India and Pakistan.
The book does not enrich readers with any new idea. They have to put up with the idle chitchat of two retired officials over a glass of whiskey. Some photographs are included, but it would have been fit to remain in the family albums of the two officials as no public interest is served by them. Altogether, the book conveys the realization of a lost opportunity.
The book is recommended.
The book is endowed with two introductions penned by each participant. It is written as a dialog between Dulat and Durrani. This was a technique used by authors to deflect criticism from them while handling potentially incendiary subjects. Galileo’s book ‘The Two Chief World Systems’, in which he declared that the earth goes round the sun is one such volume. It examined the merits and defects of world systems in which the sun and the earth were at the centre of the universe respectively. This being a highly controversial topic, Galileo was forced to go for the cover of an alias in the character of a scholar portrayed in the book. But Sinha has no aliases. Whatever opinion given in the book is attributed to either of the two dignitaries, who are also very good friends. They have worked together in the past too, with two joint projects on intelligence cooperation and on Kashmir. An interesting feature of the subcontinent is that the elite of both countries interact freely with each other either in bouts of overseas education or training programs. Needless to say, the dialog is amply lubricated with liberal doses of Scotch. One wonders why this camaraderie at the top is not percolated down to lower levels. Sinha narrates a case in which Durrani’s son was saved from a nasty bureaucratic deadlock in Mumbai in 2015 when he visited that city which was not in his approved visa regimen. He was not allowed to board an international flight to Germany. The proper intervention by Dulat cleared the situation. However, his assertion that there is little hostility towards Pakistan outside Delhi is just wishful thinking. Dulat has seen only the upper circles of Indian society.
Kashmir, the central issue that divides the two countries, gets ample attention in the dialog. If we look at the history of partition, this too may be thought of only as a recent manifestation of the fundamental divide – whether a Muslim majority province can stay under a Hindu majority nation. Kashmir issue began only in 1947, but the Indian and Pakistani nations – if we accept Jinnah’s argument for a while – were already divided even while living under British hegemony. It is also fairly certain that once the Kashmir issue is amicably resolved, some other business would take its place as a bone of contention. Here, both participants agree that a forward movement is required. Resumption of trade and encouragement of people-to-people contact between the two parts of Kashmir are advocated. Kashmir comes up for discussion in most of the chapters, but no coherent view is presented by anybody. The unfocussed discussion points to a change in US attitude to Kashmir post-9/11. Freedom fighters became terrorists overnight and its ambassador at Delhi forbade its officials from visiting Srinagar.
Dulat and Durrani were at the heads of their profession of espionage, but those who expect them to open up too much are in for disappointment – they are too seasoned professionals for that. Dulat tantalizingly mentions that RAW gave an intelligence report to Pakistan that might have saved the life of President Pervez Musharraf in 2003, but does not elaborate on it. Not to be outdone, Durrani lets out the secret that Nawaz Sharif was informed of the Kargil invasion masterminded by Musharraf. Kargil region came in Indian hands after the 1971 war and Musharraf always wanted to get it back. Even with his belligerence, Durrani estimates that Musharraf’s tenure was the best in mutual relations. Durrani is unimpressed by the surgical strike by India in 2016. By that term, he means an operation that drops Special Forces some 200 km behind enemy lines to attack a specific object. This was not the case and the target was only a few hundred yards across the border. He then suggests that it might have been a choreographed strike with concurrence from Pakistan. In any case, it can only be termed as a ‘modified hot pursuit’. The part played by the Media is criticized by both experts who term it as an enemy of peace. Modi government is hawkish and muscular and Durrani comments that it would be compelled to respond to force with force under the perpetual glare of the Media. Durrani also guesses that Osama bin Laden might probably have been handed over by Pakistan. It is amazing that even under the spell of a decent amount of alcohol, the former spy chiefs manage to keep their mouths shut when strategic interests are at stake. They divulge only those details that are already known and available from other sources.
Durrani served in the army while Dulat was in the police service. Both of them harbor an emotion akin to contempt for professional diplomats who are tasked with the burden of maintaining good relations between nations. They are said to be unnecessarily strident in their deals. In the end, it might ultimately be the soldiers who have to answer for the follies of the diplomats in the battlefields. As a soldier, Durrani acknowledges the inevitability of war in certain circumstances. To completely rule out war is definitely not feasible. While it must not be the instrument of policy, it should be retained as an extension of it. Without war, there are aims that cannot be achieved. Bangladesh would not have been won without war.
The book contains a good discussion on the means to go forward in normalizing India-Pakistan relations. Dulat’s suggestions stress only on increasing people to people contacts and are superfluous, considering the religious makeup of the two countries. While India maintains a large Muslim minority, Pakistan has virtually eliminated its Hindu minority by murder, arson, conversion and forced migration to India. The Muslims of both countries might thus find their relatives living in the other country, but not the Hindus. It is hence evident that more popular interactions serve the interests of only one community. Without mindful of the consequences of opening up India indiscriminately to Pakistanis of all sorts, Dulat proposes to allow more Pakistani actors in Bollywood, more Pakistani players in IPL, easier visa norms and softer borders. He recommends nothing Pakistan should do in return. It is disappointing that Dulat is unable to think of anything substantial and his ideas hint at the disaster it would invite in India if he was allowed to carry on negotiations with our western neighbour. It is suggestive that Durrani does not share any such absurd notions. He proposes the setting up of a consultative body to resolve bilateral conflicts as and when they arise. This seems to be a better and genuine idea than that of Dulat’s preposterous pitch for a union of the two Punjabs in India and Pakistan.
The book does not enrich readers with any new idea. They have to put up with the idle chitchat of two retired officials over a glass of whiskey. Some photographs are included, but it would have been fit to remain in the family albums of the two officials as no public interest is served by them. Altogether, the book conveys the realization of a lost opportunity.
The book is recommended.
May 27, 2018
This book has caused quite a ruckus in Pakistan. Who would have thought that former ISI and RAW chiefs would get together, drink whiskey and get bawdy together. Aren't these two agencies supposed to decimate each others' country. Even the authors wonder it aloud as exemplified by the title of the first chapter of the book: 'Even if we were to write fiction, no one would believe us’.
That's the idea of the book that to end this Madness between two countries there should be more talks, dialogs, Track IIs, people to people contacts; letting their establishments talk to each other. Even better would be to get their NSAs, DGMOs, Military Chiefs and even Spy Chiefs to talk to each other on a regular basis; instead of just Foreign Service career diplomats talking who are so uptight and tight-lipped and procedural, it hardly helps. The meetings between the authors are a form of template, and more such meetings could help thaw relations between the two quibbling neighbors.
The book is written in dialogs between Durrani and Dulat, respective former chiefs of Pakistan and India's spy agencies, carried out in meetings around the world, moderated by a journalist who puts the questions forward to them. Major historical and recent events such as wars, skirmishes, summits and meetings are discussed. Kubhushan Yadav, Osama Bin Laden and Hafiz Saeed make plenty of appearances. And so does Kashmir which looms large on any course Pakistan-India relations are set on. In fact, Kashmir is discussed at such length that Dulat concludes that this book is majorly about Kashmir.
The book is a page turner; funny with all the anecdotes and quips; with opinions of these two about famous personalities they have rubbed shoulders with, sometimes venerating like in the case of Vajpayi but more often harsh as for ZAB, Nawaz Sharif, Panetta, Musharaff, Trump and the list goes on.
That's the idea of the book that to end this Madness between two countries there should be more talks, dialogs, Track IIs, people to people contacts; letting their establishments talk to each other. Even better would be to get their NSAs, DGMOs, Military Chiefs and even Spy Chiefs to talk to each other on a regular basis; instead of just Foreign Service career diplomats talking who are so uptight and tight-lipped and procedural, it hardly helps. The meetings between the authors are a form of template, and more such meetings could help thaw relations between the two quibbling neighbors.
The book is written in dialogs between Durrani and Dulat, respective former chiefs of Pakistan and India's spy agencies, carried out in meetings around the world, moderated by a journalist who puts the questions forward to them. Major historical and recent events such as wars, skirmishes, summits and meetings are discussed. Kubhushan Yadav, Osama Bin Laden and Hafiz Saeed make plenty of appearances. And so does Kashmir which looms large on any course Pakistan-India relations are set on. In fact, Kashmir is discussed at such length that Dulat concludes that this book is majorly about Kashmir.
The book is a page turner; funny with all the anecdotes and quips; with opinions of these two about famous personalities they have rubbed shoulders with, sometimes venerating like in the case of Vajpayi but more often harsh as for ZAB, Nawaz Sharif, Panetta, Musharaff, Trump and the list goes on.
July 27, 2018
I don't think I have been as excited about any book as this one, in terms of actually waiting for it to release. Maybe because my expectations were so sky high or maybe because the material is insipid, for me this is a 2 star book at best. I was expecting to be completely enlightened and gain a brand new perspective on the political subjects that ail us most, instead what I found was 3 people talking to each other and forming more of a mutual admiration society with very moderate and neutral, rather safe views rather than be blatant and blasphemous. There is nothing in it that is new to learn as such, particularly if one has been even remotely aware about the Kashmir, Indo-Pak volatility etc. I was hoping to read about hard-core espionage than have guarded, and often extremely laborious and boring conversations that one has already been exposed to time and again. I do hope these guys come up with a sequel or a follow-up to this and hopefully that will be far more risqué and engaging than this one is.
July 5, 2018
DNF.
The premise was intriguing. The layout, however, was not. This conversation more than likely took place in Urdu/Hindi, and after being translated to English comes across as choppy and incoherent (which I'm sure the actual dialogue was not). Did not enjoy.
The premise was intriguing. The layout, however, was not. This conversation more than likely took place in Urdu/Hindi, and after being translated to English comes across as choppy and incoherent (which I'm sure the actual dialogue was not). Did not enjoy.
April 8, 2020
I had a lot of expectations from this book however I found it repetitive in a lot of places.
September 10, 2019
Why does a status quo in IOK helps india but not Pakistan? Because pakistan is getting weaker economically and thus not in a position to threaten india militarily, also the kashmir issue is an old one which introduces an element of ‘listener’s fatigue’ to the same old argument, thirdly, the Kashmiris don’t want to join pakistan which would imply that pakistan would have to give up its occupied Kashmiri territory on case Indians decide to give kashmir independence, and lastly pakistan’s policy is owned by its military, and all militaries will not act in times of stays quo, they are always waiting for any escalation before they act.
The Pakistanis want the Kashmiris to keep on agitating, and to keep the independence movement alive, because they have participated in the fall of Russia in Afghanistan, they are relying on the islamists to step up and deliver the decisive blow like in Iran and Afghanistan.
Seems like india is more comfortable when dealing with pakistan army as their whole policy of is based on experience of dealing with swashbuckling and predictable generals. I am sure this current civil military partnership in Pakistan must be confusing the Indians.
The Pakistanis want the Kashmiris to keep on agitating, and to keep the independence movement alive, because they have participated in the fall of Russia in Afghanistan, they are relying on the islamists to step up and deliver the decisive blow like in Iran and Afghanistan.
Seems like india is more comfortable when dealing with pakistan army as their whole policy of is based on experience of dealing with swashbuckling and predictable generals. I am sure this current civil military partnership in Pakistan must be confusing the Indians.
April 29, 2020
'लालूप्रसाद काश्मीर धोरणावर बोलले नाहीत यावरून कळतं कि ते मुरब्बी राजकारणी आहेत' या वाक्याने या पुस्तकावरचा उरला-सुरला विश्वास उडाला. लालूप्रसाद आणि काश्मीर धोरण याचा ताळमेळ मला काही केल्या लागलेला नाही.
मुळात 'स्पाय क्रोनिकल्स' असं नाव असल्याने त्यात काही नवं, आजपर्यंत माहित नसलेलं असं काहीतरी असेल अशी अपेक्षा होती. मात्र, दुलत आणि दुर्रानी यांच्या वैयक्तिक विचारांशिवाय त्यात काही नाही. शिवाय दुलत यांची अनेक मते अनाकलनीय आहेत. भारत पाकिस्तान क्रिकेट सामने खेळवायला हवेत, पाकिस्तान मध्ये उत्तम कलाकार आहेत. त्यांना बॉलीवूड मध्ये काम करू दिलं पाहिजे. इत्यादी. भारतात पाकिस्तानी TV चॅनेल दिसत नाहीत अशीही ते तक्रार करतात. हेच दुलत उरी आणि पठाणकोट हल्ल्यांमधल्या पाकिस्तानच्या सहभागाबद्दल त्रोटक बोलतात. अनेक पाकिस्तानी आपले मित्र आहेत आणि दिल्लीत असलेले अनेक पाकिस्तानी अधिकारी आपल्या घरी आलेले आहेत असेही ते सांगतात. बरखा दत्त, हमीद अन्सारी, फारूक अब्दुल्ला यांच्यासोबतचे त्यांचे फोटोदेखील पुस्तकात आहेत. यावरून त्यांच्या विचारसरणीचा चाणाक्ष वाचकांना अंदाज येईल. मुशर्रफ हे कसे चांगले राष्ट्राध्यक्ष आहेत याबद्दलही त्यांनी लिहिलेलं आहे. Surgical Strike हा दोन्ही देशांच्या संगनमताने आणि दिखाऊपणासाठी केला गेला असं अगदी थेट नाही तरी सांगितलेलं आहे. मोदी नि डोभाल अजून परिपक्व झालेले नाहीत असं दुर्रानी म्हणतात. परिपक्व म्हणजे मनमोहन सिंग असतील तर मोदी परिपक्व नसलेलेच बरे. हे पुस्तक २०१८ मध्ये लिहिलेले आहे. यात दुर्रानी म्हणतात की 'पाकिस्तानात इम्रान खान निवडून येऊ शकणार नाही.' दुलत म्हणतात की 'मोदींना २०१९ ची निवडणूक फार जड जाईल.' प्रत्यक्षात घटना उलट घडल्या आहेत. कलम ३७० कधी निघणार नाही असाही उल्लेख आहे. असो. काही अंदाज चुकतात. मात्र, हे पुस्तक अपेक्षांवर खरे उतरत नाही. काही प्रकरणं अगदीच नीरस आहेत.
मुळात 'स्पाय क्रोनिकल्स' असं नाव असल्याने त्यात काही नवं, आजपर्यंत माहित नसलेलं असं काहीतरी असेल अशी अपेक्षा होती. मात्र, दुलत आणि दुर्रानी यांच्या वैयक्तिक विचारांशिवाय त्यात काही नाही. शिवाय दुलत यांची अनेक मते अनाकलनीय आहेत. भारत पाकिस्तान क्रिकेट सामने खेळवायला हवेत, पाकिस्तान मध्ये उत्तम कलाकार आहेत. त्यांना बॉलीवूड मध्ये काम करू दिलं पाहिजे. इत्यादी. भारतात पाकिस्तानी TV चॅनेल दिसत नाहीत अशीही ते तक्रार करतात. हेच दुलत उरी आणि पठाणकोट हल्ल्यांमधल्या पाकिस्तानच्या सहभागाबद्दल त्रोटक बोलतात. अनेक पाकिस्तानी आपले मित्र आहेत आणि दिल्लीत असलेले अनेक पाकिस्तानी अधिकारी आपल्या घरी आलेले आहेत असेही ते सांगतात. बरखा दत्त, हमीद अन्सारी, फारूक अब्दुल्ला यांच्यासोबतचे त्यांचे फोटोदेखील पुस्तकात आहेत. यावरून त्यांच्या विचारसरणीचा चाणाक्ष वाचकांना अंदाज येईल. मुशर्रफ हे कसे चांगले राष्ट्राध्यक्ष आहेत याबद्दलही त्यांनी लिहिलेलं आहे. Surgical Strike हा दोन्ही देशांच्या संगनमताने आणि दिखाऊपणासाठी केला गेला असं अगदी थेट नाही तरी सांगितलेलं आहे. मोदी नि डोभाल अजून परिपक्व झालेले नाहीत असं दुर्रानी म्हणतात. परिपक्व म्हणजे मनमोहन सिंग असतील तर मोदी परिपक्व नसलेलेच बरे. हे पुस्तक २०१८ मध्ये लिहिलेले आहे. यात दुर्रानी म्हणतात की 'पाकिस्तानात इम्रान खान निवडून येऊ शकणार नाही.' दुलत म्हणतात की 'मोदींना २०१९ ची निवडणूक फार जड जाईल.' प्रत्यक्षात घटना उलट घडल्या आहेत. कलम ३७० कधी निघणार नाही असाही उल्लेख आहे. असो. काही अंदाज चुकतात. मात्र, हे पुस्तक अपेक्षांवर खरे उतरत नाही. काही प्रकरणं अगदीच नीरस आहेत.
May 27, 2018
This book is steeped in ignorance, like the writers are living in 1950’s and want to undo what had happened. It touches on certain important parts but misses out on a lot, it’s unrealistic to believe that Pakistan and India can be like West and East Germany, after 70 years and 4 wars and a hyperactive emotional population, no matter how good of an idea of mutual cooperation is, it won’t work. The ideology on which Pakistan was created wouldn’t ever be aligned with what the Indians want or desire. Period.
August 14, 2018
I hoped for so much more out of this book but there were less of solutions and more of a discussion about the problems.
June 28, 2018
Spy Chronicles is an exceptional book in many ways but one of the most profound discoveries that I made as I read these conversations between two ex-spymasters who once were number one in their respective organizations, is the popularity of Vajpayee and Lalu Yadav. Gen Durrani says that while Vajpayee was popular due to his poetry, Lalu was liked for his drama. And I said to myself, how very apt, because this, in many ways, sums up what Pakistan as a country is: loves poetry and drama. Little wonder then why Hindi films and our TV shows are popular in Pakistan.
To me, both the speakers came across as gentlemen. Bold, direct, friendly, they articulated their views very well indeed. I could almost visualize them sitting right across from me as I read this book. So, full marks to the sutradhaar–is there a better word–Mr. Sinha, who accepted a prominent editor’s suggestion as he says in his acknowledgments, and kept the format flowing and conversational
If this is the wisdom and depth these guys have then, and with due respect to the media on both sides, they are the only ones who can be trusted to solve matters that have remained unresolved for seven decades. Our, layman’s that is, understanding of Pakistan as a state is based on what the media says, and this book is a good counter to suggest that more often than not what the media says is false or at best an unintelligent conjecture. And yes, as ironical as it may sound, the sutradhaar is a man from the media.
This is a highly readable book and presents the many sides of politics, diplomacy, the historical baggage of partition, the wounds of wars, and of course, the festering wound of Kashmir.
It was heartbreaking to learn how the two former spies discuss Kashmir as a problem that can’t be solved and how the controlled bloodshed in the valley keeps the two nations on an even keel. The initiatives taken by leaders from both sides from time to time have been discussed in detail. Though, later in the book, they do tone down and suggest solutions to address the Kashmir problem.
The spymasters agree on most things when it comes to India-Pakistan relations and at the heart of their agreement is intelligence sharing: structured, institutionalized, and transparent sharing of intelligence on a regular basis. In fact, Mr. Dulat cites one example when he says, “In 2003, a tip-off from the RAW to the ISI saved General Musharraf’s life.” Then after a few pages, we find him saying, “I was once asked by a TV channel in Karachi what I thought of the ISI. I said, ISI is great, I would have loved to have been the DG ISI.”
General Durrani minces no words in his criticism of Nawaz Sharif. Clearly frustrated, at one point he says, “India’s advantage is the capacity or capability of the state. You have Modi and Doval vs Janjua and Nawaz Sharif.” About his preference of Vajpayee over Modi he says, “I prefer someone like Vajpayee who did not deliver but his approach was right. A person who manages the relationship well will not keep you on tenterhooks. Not that there is any intention to equate Vajpayee with Modi. World of difference. We would be happy if someone like Vajpayee was prime minister in Pakistan. Poet, philosopher, he could have been a good prime minister for us.”
Continuing with his assessment of Nawaz Sharif he adds, “With Mian Saheb, it is not the chemistry that works because Mian Saheb does not work chemically. He works at best instinctively or probably driven by business and financial consideration. He understands how to survive politically at home, but on international relations, he has the acumen of a camel.” When Sinha prods him and asks him what he thinks of Modi as he had called Trump a duck earlier, Durrani says, “A fox.”
Dulat, while appreciating the Indian Muslim, shares his thoughts on why did the Indian Muslim reject the idea of ISIS, “The Indian Muslim is a cool Muslim: he’s rational, moderate, and not interested in getting involved in nonsense. They would rather stay out of this mess.” Yet,” he adds, “radicalism is growing perhaps as a result of our muscular policy. Jamat certainly is growing.”
Durrani, as is evident at a few places, likes his drink and I must quote at least once of his fondness for alcohol, which, as all of us know, is considered illegal in Pakistan. He says, “… took me to a club in Delhi where I had the best gin-and-tonic and fish tikkas.”
The two have also spoken their mind on Kulbhushan Jadhav, Afghanistan, Baluchistan, China, America, Russia, Iran, and of course Kashmir. This is a must-read book. Five hours later, the reader will be in a never before position to understand the complexity of the India-Pakistan relations. The two gentlemen have given some solutions too, which, to my mind, do have the potential to set a course of probable happiness and mutual coexistence.
To me, both the speakers came across as gentlemen. Bold, direct, friendly, they articulated their views very well indeed. I could almost visualize them sitting right across from me as I read this book. So, full marks to the sutradhaar–is there a better word–Mr. Sinha, who accepted a prominent editor’s suggestion as he says in his acknowledgments, and kept the format flowing and conversational
If this is the wisdom and depth these guys have then, and with due respect to the media on both sides, they are the only ones who can be trusted to solve matters that have remained unresolved for seven decades. Our, layman’s that is, understanding of Pakistan as a state is based on what the media says, and this book is a good counter to suggest that more often than not what the media says is false or at best an unintelligent conjecture. And yes, as ironical as it may sound, the sutradhaar is a man from the media.
This is a highly readable book and presents the many sides of politics, diplomacy, the historical baggage of partition, the wounds of wars, and of course, the festering wound of Kashmir.
It was heartbreaking to learn how the two former spies discuss Kashmir as a problem that can’t be solved and how the controlled bloodshed in the valley keeps the two nations on an even keel. The initiatives taken by leaders from both sides from time to time have been discussed in detail. Though, later in the book, they do tone down and suggest solutions to address the Kashmir problem.
The spymasters agree on most things when it comes to India-Pakistan relations and at the heart of their agreement is intelligence sharing: structured, institutionalized, and transparent sharing of intelligence on a regular basis. In fact, Mr. Dulat cites one example when he says, “In 2003, a tip-off from the RAW to the ISI saved General Musharraf’s life.” Then after a few pages, we find him saying, “I was once asked by a TV channel in Karachi what I thought of the ISI. I said, ISI is great, I would have loved to have been the DG ISI.”
General Durrani minces no words in his criticism of Nawaz Sharif. Clearly frustrated, at one point he says, “India’s advantage is the capacity or capability of the state. You have Modi and Doval vs Janjua and Nawaz Sharif.” About his preference of Vajpayee over Modi he says, “I prefer someone like Vajpayee who did not deliver but his approach was right. A person who manages the relationship well will not keep you on tenterhooks. Not that there is any intention to equate Vajpayee with Modi. World of difference. We would be happy if someone like Vajpayee was prime minister in Pakistan. Poet, philosopher, he could have been a good prime minister for us.”
Continuing with his assessment of Nawaz Sharif he adds, “With Mian Saheb, it is not the chemistry that works because Mian Saheb does not work chemically. He works at best instinctively or probably driven by business and financial consideration. He understands how to survive politically at home, but on international relations, he has the acumen of a camel.” When Sinha prods him and asks him what he thinks of Modi as he had called Trump a duck earlier, Durrani says, “A fox.”
Dulat, while appreciating the Indian Muslim, shares his thoughts on why did the Indian Muslim reject the idea of ISIS, “The Indian Muslim is a cool Muslim: he’s rational, moderate, and not interested in getting involved in nonsense. They would rather stay out of this mess.” Yet,” he adds, “radicalism is growing perhaps as a result of our muscular policy. Jamat certainly is growing.”
Durrani, as is evident at a few places, likes his drink and I must quote at least once of his fondness for alcohol, which, as all of us know, is considered illegal in Pakistan. He says, “… took me to a club in Delhi where I had the best gin-and-tonic and fish tikkas.”
The two have also spoken their mind on Kulbhushan Jadhav, Afghanistan, Baluchistan, China, America, Russia, Iran, and of course Kashmir. This is a must-read book. Five hours later, the reader will be in a never before position to understand the complexity of the India-Pakistan relations. The two gentlemen have given some solutions too, which, to my mind, do have the potential to set a course of probable happiness and mutual coexistence.
June 22, 2018
True Wonderer
Pointing to the horizon where the sea and sky are joined, he says, ‘It is only an illusion because they can’t really meet, but isn’t it beautiful, this union which isn’t really there.’ —Saadat Hasan Manto
Asad Durrani back in 2015 during his interview at Oxford with his frankness, even though I watched that interview in 2017, left me awestruck. Here was a man, owning up to things, however bad they might seem to me, which he deemed necessary irrespective of their morality ("Morality takes a backseat in statecraft" was what he said I believe, and I do grudgingly agree with that statement) like supporting and actively helping the Taliban, supporting and funding militancy in Kashmir, double crossing US etc on camera and on record. That doesn't happen often, that never happens I think.
Therefore, I expected a lot from this book, "ISI and RAW chiefs for God's sake!", which was wrong of me, as although not disappointing the opposite actually, it did leave something more to be desired. So no sensational revelations or jaw drooping confessions are present in this book, although the two head spooks don't admit to any wrong doing they do not deny some of the things which come up in their conversations either, and in those evasions you have to take what you can, read between the lines and make up your mind, their's the shadow world after all. But it sure in annoying, when you can't see the dirt, these fellows actively worked against each other, locked horns in their nation's 'Cold War' and here they are having a drink like old pals, chilled out and discussing peace.
But then again, it makes sense, as Mr. Durrani says, "We know the price." The best people who can talk peace are the ones who have been in war, seen destruction, orchestrated it, they do indeed know the price. So, their insights were priceless, their frankness appreciated and their opinions and suggestions worth analyzing.
I enjoyed this book immensely, every issue was treated with a frank perspective steeped in facts and possible action and reactions. The terror question though posed here and there, was never actually pinned down and was evaded, which was annoying, both former chiefs seem to take such a thing as granted, which was surprising. Kashmir, Baluchistan, Wars, The deep state and the new great game, Terror and Talks, Dictatorship and Politics, the outrageous right wings in both nations, the past reconciliation attempts, the possible future en-devours, the current freeze, the futility of war, the necessity of its threat all are discussed in a very non lethal way.
I was in agreement with both the former chiefs on their road-maps for a way forward in the last section of the book. Reading that it might seem that peace is not all that elusive after all, that there is hope. But to let go of old grudges and still open wounds, to overlook the current cuts regularly exchanged, which they seem to do easily or with effort I cannot say, would that be possible for the rest, for the establishment most of all. Talk, keep talking, even with the cloak and daggers is what Mr. Dulat seem to suggest.
This was a very interesting collaboration, however much 'non-serious way of writing' about such inflammable topics it may seem. It is a start and worth commending. I appreciate the effort and enjoyed the read. Read it for that if for nothing else, see the bogeyman's side and try to see what the bogeyman sees. Kaash ke hum dost hote, shayad ho jayen. Stranger things have happened in the world after all.
Pointing to the horizon where the sea and sky are joined, he says, ‘It is only an illusion because they can’t really meet, but isn’t it beautiful, this union which isn’t really there.’ —Saadat Hasan Manto
Asad Durrani back in 2015 during his interview at Oxford with his frankness, even though I watched that interview in 2017, left me awestruck. Here was a man, owning up to things, however bad they might seem to me, which he deemed necessary irrespective of their morality ("Morality takes a backseat in statecraft" was what he said I believe, and I do grudgingly agree with that statement) like supporting and actively helping the Taliban, supporting and funding militancy in Kashmir, double crossing US etc on camera and on record. That doesn't happen often, that never happens I think.
Therefore, I expected a lot from this book, "ISI and RAW chiefs for God's sake!", which was wrong of me, as although not disappointing the opposite actually, it did leave something more to be desired. So no sensational revelations or jaw drooping confessions are present in this book, although the two head spooks don't admit to any wrong doing they do not deny some of the things which come up in their conversations either, and in those evasions you have to take what you can, read between the lines and make up your mind, their's the shadow world after all. But it sure in annoying, when you can't see the dirt, these fellows actively worked against each other, locked horns in their nation's 'Cold War' and here they are having a drink like old pals, chilled out and discussing peace.
But then again, it makes sense, as Mr. Durrani says, "We know the price." The best people who can talk peace are the ones who have been in war, seen destruction, orchestrated it, they do indeed know the price. So, their insights were priceless, their frankness appreciated and their opinions and suggestions worth analyzing.
I enjoyed this book immensely, every issue was treated with a frank perspective steeped in facts and possible action and reactions. The terror question though posed here and there, was never actually pinned down and was evaded, which was annoying, both former chiefs seem to take such a thing as granted, which was surprising. Kashmir, Baluchistan, Wars, The deep state and the new great game, Terror and Talks, Dictatorship and Politics, the outrageous right wings in both nations, the past reconciliation attempts, the possible future en-devours, the current freeze, the futility of war, the necessity of its threat all are discussed in a very non lethal way.
I was in agreement with both the former chiefs on their road-maps for a way forward in the last section of the book. Reading that it might seem that peace is not all that elusive after all, that there is hope. But to let go of old grudges and still open wounds, to overlook the current cuts regularly exchanged, which they seem to do easily or with effort I cannot say, would that be possible for the rest, for the establishment most of all. Talk, keep talking, even with the cloak and daggers is what Mr. Dulat seem to suggest.
This was a very interesting collaboration, however much 'non-serious way of writing' about such inflammable topics it may seem. It is a start and worth commending. I appreciate the effort and enjoyed the read. Read it for that if for nothing else, see the bogeyman's side and try to see what the bogeyman sees. Kaash ke hum dost hote, shayad ho jayen. Stranger things have happened in the world after all.
June 21, 2018
The inside story of Pakistan and India as told by two people who should know as they were the heads of their respective spy agencies.
Durrani (ISI) and Dulat (RAW) leverage the warmth of their highly unusual personal friendship to talk about the challenges that plague the India-Pakistan relationship, the deeply entrenched mindsets, the establishment which is only interested in maintaining status quo, the politicians who are focused on using the relationship (or lack of it) for electoral gains in their respective countries, and the various almost successful attempts that have been made over the years to break the deadlock and move ahead.
In the process they talk about the roles played by various personalities including Musharraf who despite having been the architect of Kargil, is in their opinion the one Pak leader who not just was interested but also in a position to make the maximum difference. However, his dalliance with Vajpayee, another with an acute interest and ability to move forward, was shortlived due to people like Advani or the establishment on both sides who was too stuck in their centuries old mindset. Mian Sharif and Gujral come in for handsome praise for their own attempts to broker a thaw in these almost perennially frozen relationships.
The narrative around Kashmir as the primary dispute is quite insightful in so much as it exposes the lack of depth each government (more particularly the Indian Govt) has in dealing with the problem. And in the process the ultimate sufferer is the ordinary Kashmiri about whom no one seems to care.
The book offers a number of insights into this extremely complex topic which as ordinary observers we may not be aware of. For example, how Pakistan could allow (or even suggest) a surgical strike by India to assuage the political heat post Bombay or Uri type of attacks, even as the two countries try and figure out how to ensure such incidents don’t happen in the future.
Each of the two spy chiefs also offer their own suggestions on how this relationship could move forward even while preserving status quo on key issues which no party wants to give up on.
In between providing their perspectives on various political, military, groups-political and human issues, Durrani and Dulat make repeated impassioned pleas that lack of talks is no solution. In fact, if talks should be carried out during the best of times, they are even more critical during the worst of times.
However, an incomplete dialogue style takes some getting used to. It is a while before the reader realises that the series of incomplete ideas are representative of the Indo-Pak relationship which in itself is at the least an incomplete agenda or maybe a series of incomplete steps and initiatives.
A must read for all self professed experts on the Indo-Pak relationship and even for those who desire to learn more about the complexities that envelope these two neighbours in an unending cycle of distrust, violence and almost successful attempts at peace.
Durrani (ISI) and Dulat (RAW) leverage the warmth of their highly unusual personal friendship to talk about the challenges that plague the India-Pakistan relationship, the deeply entrenched mindsets, the establishment which is only interested in maintaining status quo, the politicians who are focused on using the relationship (or lack of it) for electoral gains in their respective countries, and the various almost successful attempts that have been made over the years to break the deadlock and move ahead.
In the process they talk about the roles played by various personalities including Musharraf who despite having been the architect of Kargil, is in their opinion the one Pak leader who not just was interested but also in a position to make the maximum difference. However, his dalliance with Vajpayee, another with an acute interest and ability to move forward, was shortlived due to people like Advani or the establishment on both sides who was too stuck in their centuries old mindset. Mian Sharif and Gujral come in for handsome praise for their own attempts to broker a thaw in these almost perennially frozen relationships.
The narrative around Kashmir as the primary dispute is quite insightful in so much as it exposes the lack of depth each government (more particularly the Indian Govt) has in dealing with the problem. And in the process the ultimate sufferer is the ordinary Kashmiri about whom no one seems to care.
The book offers a number of insights into this extremely complex topic which as ordinary observers we may not be aware of. For example, how Pakistan could allow (or even suggest) a surgical strike by India to assuage the political heat post Bombay or Uri type of attacks, even as the two countries try and figure out how to ensure such incidents don’t happen in the future.
Each of the two spy chiefs also offer their own suggestions on how this relationship could move forward even while preserving status quo on key issues which no party wants to give up on.
In between providing their perspectives on various political, military, groups-political and human issues, Durrani and Dulat make repeated impassioned pleas that lack of talks is no solution. In fact, if talks should be carried out during the best of times, they are even more critical during the worst of times.
However, an incomplete dialogue style takes some getting used to. It is a while before the reader realises that the series of incomplete ideas are representative of the Indo-Pak relationship which in itself is at the least an incomplete agenda or maybe a series of incomplete steps and initiatives.
A must read for all self professed experts on the Indo-Pak relationship and even for those who desire to learn more about the complexities that envelope these two neighbours in an unending cycle of distrust, violence and almost successful attempts at peace.
June 4, 2018
India and Pakistan became two separate countries when they got their independence from Britain in 1947. Later in 1971 the eastern part of Pakistan became Bangladesh.
Relationship between India and Pakistan has always been fraught. They have fought two major wars in 1965 and 1971. They also came to blows in 1948 in Kashmir and 1999 in Kargil, although on these occasions Pakistan denied its direct involvement and put the blame on independent 'freedom fighters'. The border between the two countries remains hot with sporadic instances of shooting at each other. Each instance of shooting by Pakistan gives a reason to go ballistic to Indian media. I presume something similar happens in Pakistan too.
The main bone of contention between the two countries is Kashmir - a Muslim majority state with a Hindu ruler that acceded to India with some hesitation in 1948. Indian army was able to prevent forcible takeover of Kashmir by Pakistan except for a small part which is called Azad(independent) Kashmir by Pakistan, and Occupied Kashmir by India. Srinagar, the capital city of Kashmir, and some other parts of Indian Kashmir are witnessing a vocal movement for an independent Kashmir through mass protests and frequent instances of terrorist attacks on armed forces, police and civilians. India blames Pakistan for encouraging and supporting this movement, and this has meant the end of some positive movement between the two countries in the fields of trade, sports and culture. There have been terrorist attacks in India outside Kashmir and India believes they have been orchestrated by Pakistan's Inter Services Intelligence(ISI).
Pakistan's own situation is not much better. Terrorist incidents within Pakistan are deadlier and more frequent than India. Once in a while Pakistan puts the blame on India's external intelligence agency, known by the acronym RAW; although it realizes the problem is mostly homegrown.
It is therefore nothing short of a publishing coup that two persons - one a former head of ISI and the other a former head of RAW - have jointly authored a book on the issues plaguing the relations between the two countries. This book is all the more relevant today because the present Indian government has taken a very tough stand on Pakistan's alleged role in sponsoring terror in India.
An interesting feature of Indo-Pak relationship, something that always confuses western observers - is the bonhomie between people of the two countries whenever they meet. This bonhomie is very much in evidence between Mr Durrani, former ISI chief, and Mr Dulat, former RAW chief. The book is presented in the form of a dialogue between the two, facilitated by Aditya Sinha.
My first reaction on finishing the book is one of disappointment. No earthshaking revelations are made. There are many interesting vignettes, but the road map given by the two authors for improvement of relations between the two nuclear armed nations doesn't contain anything that hasn't been said before. There is also some problem with editing. I read a digital copy, and maybe the problem is with digitization, but the language is awkward in many places.
A few interesting things do emerge from the discussion. RAW once gave an intelligence input to Pakistan that saved the life of the then President of Pakitan, General Parvez Musharraf. There is a lot of mutual respect between the armies of the two countries. The two wars they fought were gentlemen's wars, without needless attacks on civilian population. The treatment of prisoners of war was civilized on both sides. There is more than a hint that the much touted 'surgical strike' in Pakistan's territory by Indian forces in response to a terrorist incident in India was with Pakistan's connivance. Unlike the prevailing impression in India, Pakistan army is not itching for war. Most interesting, the Pakistan establishment is surprised by the intensity and longevity of the insurgency in India Kashmir.
The best part is that former heads of two much reviled agencies have got together and talked of mending the relationship between the two countries. That itself is a great step forward.
Relationship between India and Pakistan has always been fraught. They have fought two major wars in 1965 and 1971. They also came to blows in 1948 in Kashmir and 1999 in Kargil, although on these occasions Pakistan denied its direct involvement and put the blame on independent 'freedom fighters'. The border between the two countries remains hot with sporadic instances of shooting at each other. Each instance of shooting by Pakistan gives a reason to go ballistic to Indian media. I presume something similar happens in Pakistan too.
The main bone of contention between the two countries is Kashmir - a Muslim majority state with a Hindu ruler that acceded to India with some hesitation in 1948. Indian army was able to prevent forcible takeover of Kashmir by Pakistan except for a small part which is called Azad(independent) Kashmir by Pakistan, and Occupied Kashmir by India. Srinagar, the capital city of Kashmir, and some other parts of Indian Kashmir are witnessing a vocal movement for an independent Kashmir through mass protests and frequent instances of terrorist attacks on armed forces, police and civilians. India blames Pakistan for encouraging and supporting this movement, and this has meant the end of some positive movement between the two countries in the fields of trade, sports and culture. There have been terrorist attacks in India outside Kashmir and India believes they have been orchestrated by Pakistan's Inter Services Intelligence(ISI).
Pakistan's own situation is not much better. Terrorist incidents within Pakistan are deadlier and more frequent than India. Once in a while Pakistan puts the blame on India's external intelligence agency, known by the acronym RAW; although it realizes the problem is mostly homegrown.
It is therefore nothing short of a publishing coup that two persons - one a former head of ISI and the other a former head of RAW - have jointly authored a book on the issues plaguing the relations between the two countries. This book is all the more relevant today because the present Indian government has taken a very tough stand on Pakistan's alleged role in sponsoring terror in India.
An interesting feature of Indo-Pak relationship, something that always confuses western observers - is the bonhomie between people of the two countries whenever they meet. This bonhomie is very much in evidence between Mr Durrani, former ISI chief, and Mr Dulat, former RAW chief. The book is presented in the form of a dialogue between the two, facilitated by Aditya Sinha.
My first reaction on finishing the book is one of disappointment. No earthshaking revelations are made. There are many interesting vignettes, but the road map given by the two authors for improvement of relations between the two nuclear armed nations doesn't contain anything that hasn't been said before. There is also some problem with editing. I read a digital copy, and maybe the problem is with digitization, but the language is awkward in many places.
A few interesting things do emerge from the discussion. RAW once gave an intelligence input to Pakistan that saved the life of the then President of Pakitan, General Parvez Musharraf. There is a lot of mutual respect between the armies of the two countries. The two wars they fought were gentlemen's wars, without needless attacks on civilian population. The treatment of prisoners of war was civilized on both sides. There is more than a hint that the much touted 'surgical strike' in Pakistan's territory by Indian forces in response to a terrorist incident in India was with Pakistan's connivance. Unlike the prevailing impression in India, Pakistan army is not itching for war. Most interesting, the Pakistan establishment is surprised by the intensity and longevity of the insurgency in India Kashmir.
The best part is that former heads of two much reviled agencies have got together and talked of mending the relationship between the two countries. That itself is a great step forward.
May 16, 2019
This book caught my attention because of its title for obvious reason. A S Dulat, former secretary of RAW and Asad Durrani, former DG of ISI have conversation guided by journalist Aditya Sinha that ranges on various topics. What's interesting is how friendly and mutually respectful both these spy masters went about the conversation. Quite a fascinating read indeed. Recommended for those who are interested in regional geopolitics. At the end they both agree that the bickering should stop and propose their respective formula forward.
After its publication, Mr. durrani has got himself into trouble in his country. Apparently he was stripped off from post retirement benefits and allowances for making sensitive remarks. Though he claimed that he had made such remarks many a times before.
After its publication, Mr. durrani has got himself into trouble in his country. Apparently he was stripped off from post retirement benefits and allowances for making sensitive remarks. Though he claimed that he had made such remarks many a times before.
June 8, 2018
A really interesting and fun read on the dynamics between india and Pakistan and especially how the spy masters think.
July 22, 2018
More of a podcast series transcript! Exceptional people and great nuanced perspectives on the sub-continent.
August 21, 2022
An interesting take on Indo-Pak relations and Kashmir, from two wise men who saw it all and closely at that.
August 6, 2019
What happened yesterday in Kashmir is opposite of Ideas discussed in this book. :)
March 2, 2022
What a brilliant read !
One of the books , that I’ll treasure.
It’s written in a dialogue from which makes it super interesting and easy .
This is the 2nd best book of 2022 that I have read.
One of the books , that I’ll treasure.
It’s written in a dialogue from which makes it super interesting and easy .
This is the 2nd best book of 2022 that I have read.
December 7, 2018
I had expected a lot from this book. However, the two chiefs, Dulat and Durrani obviously have some limitations when they talk about such crucial and critical matters.
Also, I realised there were too many jargons for the normal public to understand.
The book doesn't really have a flow. They talk about various subjects like Kashmir and Balochistan and the other intellects agencies. However, as somebody who doesn't follow politics a lot, quite a few things proved to be jargons.
It was a decent book but didn't really fulfil my expectations.
Also, I realised there were too many jargons for the normal public to understand.
The book doesn't really have a flow. They talk about various subjects like Kashmir and Balochistan and the other intellects agencies. However, as somebody who doesn't follow politics a lot, quite a few things proved to be jargons.
It was a decent book but didn't really fulfil my expectations.
August 6, 2018
Really bad editing. Had to spend quite a few number of days to finish this boring book.
June 14, 2018
Its about the series of dialogues between A.S. Dulat and Asad Durrani. One was a former chief of RAW, India's external intelligence agency, the other of ISI, Its Pakistani counterpart. This conversation is guided by journalist Aaditya Sinha. Among the subjects: Kashmir and the missed opportunity for peace; Hafeez Saeed and 26/11; Kulbhushan Jadhav; Surgical strikes; the deal of Osama bin Laden; role of Russia/US/China/afghanistan in the new great game and how terror undermines the two countries attempt at talks. Its was a good insights from a spy angle and overall a good read.
* The rating is subject to change depending on the impact created by the book on the relation between India and Pakistan (Particularly between RAW and ISI).
* The rating is subject to change depending on the impact created by the book on the relation between India and Pakistan (Particularly between RAW and ISI).
May 17, 2020
It's mostly about track 2 diplomacy between India and pakistan. Experience on spy life is very rare.
Too much repeatations on kashmir.unless you are ally interested in track 2 diplomacy, dnt go for this book
Too much repeatations on kashmir.unless you are ally interested in track 2 diplomacy, dnt go for this book
July 2, 2018
This book is completely different by what was perceived by most of the Pakistanis and Indians. ISI, RAW and Spy Chronicles were sounding like that now we are going to know the secrets of these agencies, their hidden operations, their confessions and a lot more. This book caused quite a broil in Pakistan. This book is quite different from what was perceived and the fuss it caused was fire in the air. We all love spy stories but this book is more about Spy methodology. This book is about hope and most of its conclusions are heading towards ending the madness between these two countries through peace talks, Track II meeting and more people to people contact. One of my friends told me that there are many “read between the lines passages” in this book but honestly speaking everything in this book is already known. There is nothing that should be cracked down from the conversation of Dulat and Durrani. Seeing the 70 years relationship of Pakistan-India, I found this book unrealistic, though I am an optimistic person. “Yeh Deewangi Kab Khatam hogi” is the crux of this whole book and I wish that it ends soon.
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