Kirby & Lee: Stuf’ Said!: The complex genesis of the Marvel Universe, in its

by John Morrow, Jon B. Cooke, Jack Kirby (Artist)

For its 75th issue, the Jack Kirby Collector magazine presents this first-of-its-kind examination of the creators of the Marvel Universe, in an oversize book! It looks back at their own words, in chronological order, from fanzine, magazine, radio, and television interviews, to paint a picture of Jack Kirby and Stan Lee’s relationship―why it succeeded, where it deteriorated, and when it eventually failed. Also here are recollections from Steve Ditko, Wallace Wood, John Romita Sr., and more Marvel Bullpen stalwarts who worked with both Kirby and Lee. Rounding out this book is a study of the duo’s careers after they parted ways as collaborators, including Kirby’s difficulties at Marvel Comics in the 1970s, his last hurrah with Lee on the Silver Surfer Graphic Novel, and his exhausting battle to get back his original art―and creator credit―from Marvel. Stuf’ Said gives both men their say, compares their recollections, and tackles the question, “Who really created the Marvel Comics Universe?”.

Genres: Comics, Nonfiction, History

160 pages, Paperback

First published January 8, 2019

About the author

Librarian Note: There is more than one author by this name in the Goodreads database.

Reviews

[Eamonn Murphy · Rating 4 out of 5]

The Jack Kirby Collector # 75 is a special book-sized issue entitled ‘Kirby And Lee: Stuf’ Said!’ It’s an attempt by publisher John Morrow to tell the history of the creation of Marvel Comics in their words, mostly, of Stan Lee and Jack Kirby.

There are lots of other words included, not least those of Mister Morrow himself who interjects comments throughout to put the quotations in context. Any speculations on his part are accompanied by a diagram of a salt shaker to warn that, in the interests of fairness, they should be taken with that condiment added.

Naturally, Kirby’s quotes give his point of view that he created everything and Stan just put in the word balloons later. In many interviews, Stan gives Jack credit as co-creator of the characters. To be fair, he accurately describes the Marvel Method which goes like this: A writer and artist get together and discuss the plot. The artist goes off and draws the story so he’s in charge of the visuals, the pacing and making the whole thing concrete on paper.

The artist then hands the drawn pages back to the writer who scripts the captions and word balloons. Lee admits to working this way but is inclined to downplay the role of the artist and the credits, which he wrote, said ‘Written by Stan Lee’. Later he condescended reluctantly to call a book a Stan Lee/Jack Kirby Production.

The Marvel Method worked well for Stan Lee. It saved him the tedious chore of writing a full script with panel by panel descriptions of the story, such as John Broome and Gardner Fox were doing over at DC comics. As he said, it’s a lot easier to write dialogue with a picture in front of you. It also saved him the labour of detailed plotting. In fact, he preferred not to bother with plotting at all and often insisted that the artist come up with something.

He fell out with Wally Wood over this and shouted at Dick Ayers when he dared demand plotting credit for a ‘Sgt. Fury’ story. Stan Lee could do this because he was the boss and the owner’s cousin and there wasn’t much work about in comics at that time so artists were reluctant to fall out with the boss. It should also be noted that Stan got the writer’s fee for the book and the artist got no more than the usual page rate for drawing, doing the plotting for free. Wally Wood said: ‘I want the credit (and the money) for everything I do! And I resent guys like Stan Lee more than I can say! He’s my reason for living…I want to see that no-talent bum get his…’

Wood’s ambition was never realised. Instead, Stan Lee rose to fame and glory as the creator of Marvel Comics. This started in the 1960s when college students began to read the stuff and Marvel became a pop culture phenomenon. Newspapers and magazines wanted to interview someone and, as writer and editor, Stan was the frontman for the company. He was also charming and witty and came across well, a reporter’s dream. This role increased and his star grew brighter. Meanwhile, Jack Kirby was at home in his basement creating new characters, turning out great stories and fuming. Stan tried to give Jack credit but newspapers simplify things, his photo was on the cover and Stan Lee was Marvel.

Jack Kirby burst on the comics scene like a supernova with the early issues of ‘Captain America’ and stayed a star for the next two decades inventing great characters and whole new genres until silly censorious senate hearings put the whole industry in a slump. Stan Lee was writer and editor of a small, second-rate company that copied every trend, published any old rubbish and nearly folded in the late 1950s.

When Kirby came along, Stan suddenly metamorphosed into a creative genius who came up with a bunch of great new characters and concepts that changed the world of comics. After Kirby left, Stan created very little, certainly not without some ‘co-creator’ whose name came second. On the other hand, Jack never had real commercial success after he left Stan, though he did create the ‘Fourth World’ pantheon which DC exploits heavily to this day.

They both worked hard. Jack was bent over a drawing board for twelve hours a day while Stan ran the office from nine to five then went home and wrote scripts. He wrote wonderful, witty scripts and definitely made the characters more interesting and dramatic. Partly, it was via the gimmick of giving them some physical disability like Tony Stark’s weak heart, Don Blake’s lameness and Matt Murdock’s blindness. Partly it was by adding soap opera elements whereby love was always being discovered, lost and regained.

The DC super-heroes just had a girlfriend or wife and cruised along in a pleasant relationship with occasional minor tiffs. The Marvel heroes also had problems with money, work and so on just like real people. That was Stan Lee’s innovation and he deserves credit for it. It’s not entirely his fault that as the frontman for the company he got credit for everything else, too. That’s how the media works. As Jimmy Stewart said in ‘The Man Who Shot Liberty Valence’, ‘newspapers print the legend.’

This is a work of solid scholarship and ends with a ‘Verdict’ in which Morrow reveals his perfectly fair and rational conclusions based on the evidence. The recent death of Stan Lee makes the book more poignant.

Although I think he should have given the artists more credit on page one of the comics, Stan wasn’t a super-villain or even a villain. He had to work under publisher Martin Goodman and, although he ended up on a big salary, he never owned any rights to the characters himself. Kirby’s main concern was being a breadwinner, earning enough to look after his family. After the recent out of court settlement with Marvel’s new owners, I imagine they are all doing very nicely, thank you so he can rest easy.

There are no real surprises for long-time readers of ‘The Jack Kirby Collector’ as many of the quotes have been cited therein before but it’s nice to have them all gathered together in one place and put in chronological order. The book is a significant contribution to the history of those comic books that have now been translated into films and conquered the whole world, yea even unto Disneyland.

Eamonn Murphy

[David Jones · Rating 3 out of 5]

Well-researched if rather repetitious examination (drawn from interviews, anecdotes, and previously published articles) of the often fractious working relationship between two (and in some cases, more) of the main creators behind Marvel Comics, Stan Lee and Jack Kirby; whether you are a Lee hater or Kirby admirer or vice versa, you'll find plenty of facts and opinions to help you decide exactly who deserves the credit for the genesis of the Fantastic Four, Spider-Man, and many other characters that, in their current incarnations on movie screens, are hugely popular and profitable. Steve Ditko (Spider-Man) and Wallace Wood (Daredevil) also get some props in the process. It's a little bittersweet as well- finding out the dirty truth behind the creation those comic books that thrilled me so much as a grade schooler is often very disheartening. However, all these years later, the work still stands and if credit needs must be applied, here's a good place to get an idea of what you need to make up your mind.

[Michael Neno · Rating 3 out of 5]

Publisher, editor and author John Morrow's chronological compendium of Stan Lee and Jack Kirby's publicly spoken words concerning their decade-long collaborations is a handy document. It's liberally illustrated with examples of the art processes discussed. It's also a good reference guide for what was said when, even when the later pronouncements become (very) repetitive as both comics creator's memories calcified. Especially insightful (and surprising to me in their depth) was the prodigious number of examples of Lee either passively/aggressively - or just aggressively - denigrating Kirby, Steve Ditko and Wally Wood in the letters pages of Marvel comics. One might believe Lee was, at heart, insecure in his writing skills.

I believe the book does come with some prejudices and presumptions. For example, Ditko is described by Morrow as a "talented artist", disregarding the fact that Ditko was a writer for most of the last fifty years (at least), personally authoring his most important published work during that time. When pages from the Disney Legends program book are reproduced, no mention is made of Kirby being a writer (before, during or after his work at Marvel) - an outrageous designation that gets no pushback from Morrow. Little to no mention is made in Stuf' Said of the plethora of comics Kirby wrote before the Marvel age. Likewise, the same Disney book states that Lee "dreamed up an endless number of new characters and worlds", a boast that is demonstrably untrue. The best evidence to decide the verdict Morrow could have presented (but didn't) is Dr. Michael J. Vassallo's
definitive essay detailing everything Lee wrote before he teamed up with Kirby (and Ditko): "Stan Lee (1922-2018) - The Timely Years". It's a damning document that makes clear Lee did not create the cosmic concepts Kirby had already been creating since the early '40s (if not earlier). https://timely-atlas-comics.blogspot....

Lastly, the book's cover, with psychedelic Captain Victory art blown up out of context and covered with large digital fonts, is ugly. While conveying some of the anger expressed by Kirby, the cover could have looked more welcoming and it's noteworthy that nowhere is the book's designer listed.

[Fraser Sherman · Rating 4 out of 5]

This one's strictly for comic book nerds, and fairly hardcore nerds at that. But I'm one myself, so I found it rewarding, if repetitious.
Using quotes from interviews over the years, Morrow looks at the relationship, personal and professional, between Stan Lee and Jack Kirby, the pillars of Marvel's Silver Age glory years (Steve Ditko's in there too). Both men have claimed to be the real creator of the Fantastic Four, Thor, Spider-Man, X-Men; as Morrow shows, that's because the Marvel Method allowed artists way more freedom to shape the story than previous comics, but also saddled them with way more writing detail, for which they went uncompensated (Ditko and Lee were paid the standard fee-per-page for art, none for plotting the stories or creating character). So there's a blurrier line as to who created what.
That said, I think Lee comes off much worse in the quotes Morrow gives, but Morrow bends over backwards not to point fingers at either side, and instead picks Marvel's publisher, Martin Goodman. That felt a little like a cop-out.

[Peter Landau · Rating 3 out of 5]

Add or subtract a star if you’re into the history of Marvel comic or couldn’t care less about who did the lion share of creation in originating these superheroes. I fall into the former category, having grown up reading the work of Stan Lee, Jack Kirby and Steve Ditko. When I was a kid a friend asked if I liked the art or the stories more. I liked the art, though the stories obviously pulled me in. The older I get, the less interesting the stories are and the more beloved is the artwork. I used to hate Kirby when I was young because he was too cartoony. What an idiot I was (am?). It turns out that Kirby plotted much of the storylines, with Lee mostly adding dialogue. The characters were a collaboration, but who deserves credit rests on where you stand on art vs. story. I’m with Kirby when he says comics are a visual medium. There’s a lot of repetitive quotes you have to slog through to reach the resolution and by then all the main participants are dead. It was a surprisingly emotional moment.

[Daniel Taylor · Rating 5 out of 5]

This is a rich, thought-provoking history of the creation of the Marvel Comics phenomenon. Inevitably, it must also address the whole of Jack Kirby's and Stan Lee's careers, as well as much of Steve Ditko's and even Martin Goodman's in passing. The fact that it does so in fewer than ten thousand pages is a tribute to the author/compiler, John Morrow, who must have read far more pages than that to produce this historical analysis. If you've ever wondered why Kirby left Marvel at the apparent height of his creative era, this volume gives us a clear and logical answer. For more background, see Mark Evanier's "Kirby: King of Comics."

[David Macpherson · Rating 3 out of 5]

A well put together arguement of who created the Marvel Universe. The words of the creators are used to make the case that Kirby and Ditko were more responsible for the work than Stan Lee. This was published right around the time Lee died and everyone praised him up and down, meanwhile, I was trudging through this volume that shows pretty well that it was his artists that did the creating. The book is not a real fun read. There is a lot of repetition and long passages from forgotten interviews, but as a document, it does a pretty convincing job.

[Roy DeRousse · Rating 5 out of 5]

The main issues are who created and who wrote the Marvel stories and characters during the 1960s.
Spanning decades, there a many quotes from Lee, Kirby, Ditko and others along with some contextual and editorial comments. Lots of repetition but done with a purpose. Not for the casual fan, but excellent at achieving its goals.

[luciddreamer99 · Rating 5 out of 5]

A very fascinating book. A comprehensive overview of the creation of the Marvel Universe, in a method that is mostly fair to all the involved parties, despite the fact that this volume is an issue of a Kirby magazine. Recommended to readers who are interested in comic book history, specifically the Marvel Universe of characters.

[Bryan · Rating 5 out of 5]

Hands down, the most important book ever written about the creation of Marvel Comics. Meticulously researched and fairly presented, and unafraid to embrace ambiguity — as unsatisfying as it might be sometimes.

[Gary Sassaman · Rating 5 out of 5]

Who created the Marvel Universe, the series of 1960s comics that included Fantastic Four, Spider-Man, Hulk, Thor, Ant-Man, Iron Man, Avengers, X-Men, Sgt. Fury, Daredevil, and countless other secondary characters … most of which went on to become part of a financial box office force in the twenty-first century? I have always personally felt that Stan Lee and Jack Kirby were the John Lennon and Paul McCartney of the comics world, a brilliant collaboration that produced some of the finest work ever in their respective fields. But I also always felt that other artists, such as Steve Ditko, John Romita, Don Heck, Dick Ayers, and Gene Colan were at their personal best in the work they did with Stan Lee. So there had to be something there with Stan, right?

Now I’m not so sure. After reading Abraham Riesman’s devastating, warts-and-all biography of Lee, True Believer: The Rise and Fall of Stan Lee, last year, I’ve now (finally) finished John Morrow’s definitive “in-their-own-words” tell-all Stuf’ Said. Published as the 75th issue of Morrow’s Jack Kirby Collector magazine, this 176-page tome (republished almost immediately after its initial appearance in an expanded second edition, adding 16 pages to the original) presents a chronological look at what both Lee and Kirby said from 1961 on until their own deaths on the often-touchy topic of who created what. Both Riesman and Morrow point out that Lee didn’t really create anything substantial on his own, without the Marvel artists to lean on and collaborate with, and Kirby (and Ditko) did. But the magic of the Fantastic Four, et al, during the 1960s when both creators were firing on all creative cylinders, is the best superhero comics has ever had to offer. So it’s difficult at best, to break up the team and decide who did what.

Morrow’s research and compilation of all these quotes over the years builds a very dense book, and it’s wonderfully illustrated and designed (in full color, too). But the entire crux of the book boils down—for Morrow, at least (and I agree)—to two quotes, one each from Stan and Jack:

Stan Lee: “The dialogue I have always felt is the most important thing. Just as in a radio show, certainly the dialogue is the most important thing. I think in a motion picture, or in a television show, it’s what the person says that matters.”

Jack Kirby: “The penciler is the one who tells the story, who visualizes it. It’s not a writer’s medium, a letterer’s medium, an inker’s medium … the decisive factor is the artist.”

Morrow goes on to conjecture that each man felt his contribution was key, and that the other’s could have been done by anyone. I personally think that comics are such a hybrid of storytelling that one can’t be separated from the other. Stan Lee believed that if he told Jack Kirby, “I want to do a book about a character called the Hulk,” he had created that character. But in comics, the visualization of the character is key to its presentation and subsequent popularity, so the artist doing that visualization is also the character’s co-creator, at the very least. I am now, and have always been, “Team Kirby” when it comes to who did all the heavy lifting at Marvel in the 1960s. This book all but confirms that, as far I’m concerned.