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Gay Rights and the Mormon Church: Intended Actions, Unintended Consequences
The Mormon Church entered the public square on LGBT issues by joining forces with traditional-marriage proponents in Hawaii in 1993. Since then, the church has been a significant player in the ongoing saga of LGBT rights within the United States and at times has carried decisive political clout.
Gregory Prince draws from over 50,000 pages of public records, private documents, and interview transcripts to capture the past half-century of the Mormon Church’s attitudes on homosexuality. Initially that principally involved only its own members, but with its entry into the Hawaiian political arena, the church signaled an intent to shape the outcome of the marriage equality battle. That involvement reached a peak in 2008 during California’s fight over Proposition 8, which many came to call the “Mormon Proposition.”
In 2015, when the Supreme Court made marriage equality the law of the land, the Mormon Church turned its attention inward, declaring same-sex couples “apostates” and denying their children access to key Mormon rites of passage, including the blessing (christening) of infants and the baptism of children.
Prince's interview with KUER: https://radiowest.kuer.org/post/gay-r...
Prince's Q-Talk with Equality Utah: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcnVa...
Prince's interview with the Press: https://conta.cc/2HHmeTm
Princes's event with Benchmark Books: https://youtu.be/Daz-TFldZDA
Gregory Prince draws from over 50,000 pages of public records, private documents, and interview transcripts to capture the past half-century of the Mormon Church’s attitudes on homosexuality. Initially that principally involved only its own members, but with its entry into the Hawaiian political arena, the church signaled an intent to shape the outcome of the marriage equality battle. That involvement reached a peak in 2008 during California’s fight over Proposition 8, which many came to call the “Mormon Proposition.”
In 2015, when the Supreme Court made marriage equality the law of the land, the Mormon Church turned its attention inward, declaring same-sex couples “apostates” and denying their children access to key Mormon rites of passage, including the blessing (christening) of infants and the baptism of children.
Prince's interview with KUER: https://radiowest.kuer.org/post/gay-r...
Prince's Q-Talk with Equality Utah: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcnVa...
Prince's interview with the Press: https://conta.cc/2HHmeTm
Princes's event with Benchmark Books: https://youtu.be/Daz-TFldZDA
416 pages, Hardcover
Published April 19, 2019
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May 9, 2019
Prince has written some fantastic biographies of David O. McKay and Leonard Arrington, and Mormons would do well to read them. But, if they choose to only read one Greg Prince book in their lives, it should be this one. Prince leaves no stone unturned in this book, covering every big issue that has arisen during the course of the Mormon Church and its interactions with the LGBT+ community (and, of course, its queer members).
Prior to reading this book, I felt I had a pretty good understanding of the last five years of the Church's interactions with the LGBT+ community, but not so much anything before that. Sure, I'd listened to the stories of many queer Mormons through Mormon Stories and its sister podcasts, but there just hasn't been a great deal of scholarly writing about the experiences of LGBT+ Mormons until more recently. Through Prince's book, I have become much more aware of how deep the roots of homophobia in the Church go. Prince has never shied away from difficult parts of Mormon history, but there have been times where I felt he was kinder towards the Church than he needed to be in his analysis. However, in this book, he does not try to soften the blows of the words from past church leaders in regards to homosexuality. The first 1/3 of the book was the most difficult to read for me, not because it was boring, but because I didn't realize just how truly awful some of the things that were said regarding homosexuality by past prophets and apostles of the Church. I knew that there was never a time were things were good for queer Mormons, but I was afraid I wouldn't be able to finish the book because of how emotionally taxing it was to absorb the outright hostility that existed in the rhetoric of past Church leaders.
The final nail in the coffin of my Church membership was the policy of exclusion, which was just recently rescinded, instated in November of 2015 barring children of gay parents from saving ordinances until they were 18. At that time, I had no gay relatives or members of my local congregation I was aware of. Still, it was too much to bear. Since that time, I've come to the realization that, in fact, I am bisexual. Reading past comments from leaders like Spencer W. Kimball and today's current prophet Russell M. Nelson affected me in a more personal way than I anticipated. Though I'm no longer affiliated with the church, most of my immediate family is still very much rooted in Mormonism, and for the first 25 years of my life, I was a true believer. Had I been born in a different generation, I don't know if I would have made it out of Mormonism alive.
It is true that from the 60s to the 80s, homophobia was at its peak in the US, with the AIDS crisis doing little to sway public opinion until the 90s. Of course, it would have been absurd to think that Mormonism, one of the most American religions in existence, would have been immune to homophobia. What's telling, however, is the events of just the last few years and how so much of that homophobia still reigns. Yes, baby steps have been made and certainly there has never been a better time to be an "out" gay Mormon. Regardless, there are still very limited options for gay Mormons who wish to be active in their faith.
Much of the information about Prop 8 and other political initiatives the Church became involved in has been public, but not until now has it been crafted into a readable, cohesive narrative. Prince does a fantastic job looking not just at these events but policies throughout the Church's history as well in order to help readers understand how Mormonism is where it is today in its standing with the LGBT+ community. While Prince and other scholars give reason to be hopeful for the future of queer Mormons, I think it is still a good ways off. Nelson has been a leader unafraid of making big changes, but I don't think he, or his imminent successor Dallin H. Oaks, will do much in the coming decade to move the needle.
What this history details more clearly than anything is that the Church's involvement with the LGBT+ community is, and continues to be, very complicated. It would be easy to cast the Church as just one of many in the rogue's gallery of the LGBT+ community. What Prince seems to be saying between the lines is the Church truly does want to keep queer Mormons in the fold, but cannot make the necessary doctrinal/policy amendments to accomplish that. At least, not in the long term. The Church very much wants to have its cake and eat it too as demonstrated by the anti-discrimination legislation advanced in the 2015 General Session of the Utah Legislature. It also cannot yet bring itself to reckon with its past as evidenced with the neutral position taken on the conversion therapy ban this past legislative session.
One of the most remarkable things I discovered in the later chapters was the way in which the policy of exclusion was presented by Russell Nelson and Thomas S. Monson to the other apostles of the Church, in that there was no real discussion. Nelson and Monson pushed the policy forward with seemingly no understanding of the enormous shockwave it would send through the entire church, not merely the leadership. It would seem that while the apostles may agree on the basic core doctrines of the church in regards to queer Mormons, it is not a cut-and-dry issue for them collectively. With the rescinding of that same policy within the last month, it is clear that discussions are continuing to happen on how best to handle it.
I hope Prince's book will not be the last of its kind. While he interviewed plenty of Mormons both queer and not, there are still so many stories that haven't been told, or at least haven't reached a wider audience. May all Mormons along the spectrum take the time to become acquainted with this.
Prior to reading this book, I felt I had a pretty good understanding of the last five years of the Church's interactions with the LGBT+ community, but not so much anything before that. Sure, I'd listened to the stories of many queer Mormons through Mormon Stories and its sister podcasts, but there just hasn't been a great deal of scholarly writing about the experiences of LGBT+ Mormons until more recently. Through Prince's book, I have become much more aware of how deep the roots of homophobia in the Church go. Prince has never shied away from difficult parts of Mormon history, but there have been times where I felt he was kinder towards the Church than he needed to be in his analysis. However, in this book, he does not try to soften the blows of the words from past church leaders in regards to homosexuality. The first 1/3 of the book was the most difficult to read for me, not because it was boring, but because I didn't realize just how truly awful some of the things that were said regarding homosexuality by past prophets and apostles of the Church. I knew that there was never a time were things were good for queer Mormons, but I was afraid I wouldn't be able to finish the book because of how emotionally taxing it was to absorb the outright hostility that existed in the rhetoric of past Church leaders.
The final nail in the coffin of my Church membership was the policy of exclusion, which was just recently rescinded, instated in November of 2015 barring children of gay parents from saving ordinances until they were 18. At that time, I had no gay relatives or members of my local congregation I was aware of. Still, it was too much to bear. Since that time, I've come to the realization that, in fact, I am bisexual. Reading past comments from leaders like Spencer W. Kimball and today's current prophet Russell M. Nelson affected me in a more personal way than I anticipated. Though I'm no longer affiliated with the church, most of my immediate family is still very much rooted in Mormonism, and for the first 25 years of my life, I was a true believer. Had I been born in a different generation, I don't know if I would have made it out of Mormonism alive.
It is true that from the 60s to the 80s, homophobia was at its peak in the US, with the AIDS crisis doing little to sway public opinion until the 90s. Of course, it would have been absurd to think that Mormonism, one of the most American religions in existence, would have been immune to homophobia. What's telling, however, is the events of just the last few years and how so much of that homophobia still reigns. Yes, baby steps have been made and certainly there has never been a better time to be an "out" gay Mormon. Regardless, there are still very limited options for gay Mormons who wish to be active in their faith.
Much of the information about Prop 8 and other political initiatives the Church became involved in has been public, but not until now has it been crafted into a readable, cohesive narrative. Prince does a fantastic job looking not just at these events but policies throughout the Church's history as well in order to help readers understand how Mormonism is where it is today in its standing with the LGBT+ community. While Prince and other scholars give reason to be hopeful for the future of queer Mormons, I think it is still a good ways off. Nelson has been a leader unafraid of making big changes, but I don't think he, or his imminent successor Dallin H. Oaks, will do much in the coming decade to move the needle.
What this history details more clearly than anything is that the Church's involvement with the LGBT+ community is, and continues to be, very complicated. It would be easy to cast the Church as just one of many in the rogue's gallery of the LGBT+ community. What Prince seems to be saying between the lines is the Church truly does want to keep queer Mormons in the fold, but cannot make the necessary doctrinal/policy amendments to accomplish that. At least, not in the long term. The Church very much wants to have its cake and eat it too as demonstrated by the anti-discrimination legislation advanced in the 2015 General Session of the Utah Legislature. It also cannot yet bring itself to reckon with its past as evidenced with the neutral position taken on the conversion therapy ban this past legislative session.
One of the most remarkable things I discovered in the later chapters was the way in which the policy of exclusion was presented by Russell Nelson and Thomas S. Monson to the other apostles of the Church, in that there was no real discussion. Nelson and Monson pushed the policy forward with seemingly no understanding of the enormous shockwave it would send through the entire church, not merely the leadership. It would seem that while the apostles may agree on the basic core doctrines of the church in regards to queer Mormons, it is not a cut-and-dry issue for them collectively. With the rescinding of that same policy within the last month, it is clear that discussions are continuing to happen on how best to handle it.
I hope Prince's book will not be the last of its kind. While he interviewed plenty of Mormons both queer and not, there are still so many stories that haven't been told, or at least haven't reached a wider audience. May all Mormons along the spectrum take the time to become acquainted with this.
December 20, 2019
This is an important book. Even where I think Gregory Prince is wrong, I still think the subject matter of his Gay Rights and the Mormon Church can potentially do a lot of good. One of his stated intents of his book is that an accurate rendering of how we got to where we are now [regarding LGBT issues] will serve to inform the church leaders who eventually take those steps. But I think it can benefit just ordinary lay members as well in the meantime.
I wanted to read Prince's book right when it came out, but it didn't immediately have a Kindle version available. After reading Colin Hilton's review, I found that the Kindle version is available, so I jumped right in.
https://twitter.com/TheConorHilton/status/1205245884872773632?s=19
Before reading the last four chapters or so, I wanted to post that I think Conor went a little harsh on Prince, that Prince was entirely fair in his presentation of events. For me, the parts that were hardest to read were direct quotes from Church leaders more than anything else such as:
Marriage between man and a woman in ordained of God, but same-sex marriage is only a counterfeit. It brings neither posterity nor exaltation. Although his imitations deceive many people, they are not the real thing. They cannot bring lasting happiness.
by Seventy Larry Lawrence. And the infamous Miracle of Forgiveness by Spencer W. Kimball:
Certainly it can be overcome, for there are numerous happy people who were once involved in its clutches and who have since completely transformed their lives. Therefore to those who say that this practice or any other evil is incurable, I respond: 'How can you say the door cannot be opened until your knuckles are bloody, till your head is bruised, till your muscles are sore? It can be done.'... Let this individual repent of his perversion, force himself to turn to normal pursuits and interests and actions and friendships with the opposite sex, and this normal pattern can become natural again.
As a gay Latter-Day Saint, hearing these things from Church leaders hits close to home. Because they directly impact our lives. There is no room for riffing it when it comes to something so personal, but it feels like that is what has been done.
Prince also covers several moments of grace, where you knew church leaders did the right thing. For instance, when Marlin Jensen visited a stake in California and listened to the experiences of LGBT church members:
There was not a dry eye in the room while this was happening, including Elder Jensen. He was facing the congregation as people stood up, one at a time, and he was weeping openly, along with just about everybody else. Then it was Jensen's turn. After relating some of his own experiences, he made an extraordinary statement:
I have very limited authority. I'm called a General Authority, but the scope of my authority is a sliver. But I do have some authority, by assignment, when it comes to stake conferences. So that's what brings me here today. You have to understand that in this narrow scope of limited authority, almost on a personal level, I want to apologize to all you people for what you had to endure over these years. I just feel like I need to give you my own, personal apology. It's not up to me to apologize for the church, but I feel that that's what I should do today.
But there were obvious moments where you could tell that Prince wasn't entirely making good-faith arguments. There were two in particular that were glaringly obvious to me. The first was his response to Ty Mansfield's position. Ty is a psychologist. He teaches down at BYU. He is a former president of Northstar, the support group for LGBT Mormons who wish to live in harmony with gospel teachings. He is married to a woman, despite being gay, although he may not use that term. Mansfield enters Prince's narrative when the Church refused to endorse the Family Acceptance Project:
Ty Mansfield, a marriage and family therapist and openly gay Mormon in a mixed-orientation marriage, who expressed concern that 'the way the pamphlet is framed is unhelpful and may even do subtle harm. The pamphlet's assumption of a predetermined and rubber-stamped "LGBT" identity is problematic.' In other words, neither Mansfield nor the church was yet willing to acknowledge that homosexuality is biological.
Prince is entirely convinced that it's all biology, and if the Church would just admit that, we could all move on. But that's not what Ty was saying here at all, and he would know that if he engaged with Mansfield a little more. But Mansfield-- nor I, for that matter-- doesn't fit into Prince's overall narrative. He explains happy mixed-orientation marriages away as people who are actually bisexual. We may as well not exist, according to the narrative Prince has constructed. Prince only mentions Northstar once in reference to the dissolution of Evergreen, the now infamous organization that used to encourage reparative therapy. Mansfield believes there is a little more nuance than attributing LGBT identity entirely to biology, that there are different layers, so to speak. In his essay, Homosexuality and Desire in the collection of essays A Reason for Faith, Mansfield tries to parse out four layers of sexuality: attraction and desire, orientation, behavior, and identity. Specifically, I will quote from the section on identity, since that is what's at issue here:
"Being gay" is not a scientific idea, but rather a cultural and philosophical one, addressing the subjective concept of identity. Our sense of identity is something we negotiate with our environment, which can include our biological environment... While there have likely always been homoerotic attraction, desire, behavior, and even relationships among humans, the narratives through which sexuality is understood and incorporated into one's sense of self and identity is subjective and culturally influenced. The "gay" person or personality as we might conceptualize it today didn't exist prior to the mid-twentieth century.
I want to be careful here though. This may sound an awful lot like Elder Bednar's recent statement that There are no homosexuals on the Church, meaning that sure, you have attractions to people of the opposite gender, but you don't have to go construct an identity around them. I disagree with Elder Bednar's assertion. I also, unlike Ty, choose to use the word gay to describe myself. Finally, I think there is a lot of good that has come from an LGBT identity, even developing its own set of cultural norms and institutions. This comes from Prince's book:
Until Stonewall, we didn't have an organized LGBT community. We didn't have health institutions, recreational sports, faith-based settings, that would welcome. There wasn't the foundation of a civil society for LGBT people. There was nowhere for them to fit in.
All Ty is saying is-- that isn't biology. And from a member of the Church who is gay, I had strong reservations from being fully immersed in the LGBT community, because there were certain cultural aspects that didn't mesh with what I viewed as my primary identity as a Mormon. I like how Ty said that identity "is something we negotiate with our environment", which is exactly what I had to do with my religious identity and my sexual orientation. I came to a different place than other people, and I'm OK with that. Ty is saying the same thing. And I think it was disingenuous of Prince to attribute Mansfield's statement to his refusal to accept the biological basis of homosexuality.
The second moment that really caught me off guard was Prince's discussion of LDS doctrine concerning the afterlife and speculation on how our attractions will continue in the next life. Prince quotes from the Book of Mormon to establish how Mormon theology has evolved from an initial concept of universal salvation to a tiered three-kingdom:
A verse in the book of Mormon states, "And he also testified unto the people that all mankind should be saved at the last day, and that they need not fear nor tremble, but that they might lift up their heads and rejoice; for the Lord had created all men, and had also redeemed all men; and, in the end, all men should have eternal life."
The theology soon began to evolve, driven initially by an 1832 vision, to a hierarchical, merit-based heaven with three kingdoms, the highest of which would be populated by those who received LDS baptism while living.
The thing that Prince fails to mention, which anybody who has actually read the Book of Mormon before, is that the quote is from Nehor, the anti-Christ. His doctrine that they need not fear nor tremble... for the Lord had also redeemed all men was never the Church's position, and it certainly is odd that Prince, a Latter-Day Saint, would include this quote to back up his position. Either he is purposefully pulling the quote out of context, or he doesn't know his scriptures. I would also think that most historians would disagree with Prince's assessment of the development of LDS theology from one of universal salvation to merit-based kingdoms. According to the Revelations in Context essay on D&C 76, it was the opposite, proceeding from the traditional heaven/hell dichotomy inherited from Protestantism to the three-tiered kingdoms, which many early Church members, including later-prophet Brigham Young, initially rejected as being too universal.
These, along with other spots throughout the book, really call into question Prince's attempts at presenting an unbiased narrative.
The other thing that concerned me about Prince's book is the perpetuation of unhealthy conceptualizations of religion, particularly in his chapter on suicide. Prince does well to draw our attention to the serious problem surrounding teen suicide in the Church. And given all the narratives in the book of what people have experienced at the hands of Church leaders, I am not surprised. Somehow, I escaped relatively unscathed from bad experiences with local Church leaders, despite the insensitive things often said at the pulpit in general conference. Quotes that concerned me are ones like this:
Since Nelson has become the prophet, just in teh Mama Dragon group alone... we had twenty or thirty kids that have been in hospitals for suicide attempts, that are our children... Just the thought of him being prophet is sending people over the edge.
I don't wish to minimize what the Church has done, nor am I attempting to blame the victims. But this, to me, is a dangerous approach to religion. But it's one that we internalize as youth-- that the prophet is infallible, and we should take everything he says as God's word. If you took Spencer Kimball at his word that if you are gay, it is better that you hang a millstone around your neck and sink into the depths of the sea, you aren't inevitably going to deal with self-loathing and thoughts of suicide. I'm not doing the prophet any favors here though, as it seems I'm advocating that we shouldn't take him 100% seriously. All I'm saying is that my approach to religion is a personal one. Before I take a prophet at his word, I filter it through my own knowledge of what is right and wrong, prayerful contemplation, as well as my knowledge gained through careful study. And there is even prophetic counsel to do so: Henry Eyring has reiterated Brigham Young's counsel I am more afraid that this people have so much confidence in their leaders that they will not inquire for themselves of God whether they are led by Him. To quote from a different faith tradition, Richard Rohr, a Franciscan, has said, Most of organized religion, without meaning to, has actually discouraged us from taking the mystical path by telling us almost exclusively to trust outer authority, Scripture, tradition, or various kinds of experts (what I call the "containers")-- instead of telling us the value and importance of inner experience itself (which is the "content"). In fact, most of us were strongly warned against every trusting ourselves... These were ways of discouraging actual experiences with God and often created passive (and often passive aggressive) people and, more sadly, a lot of people who concluded there was no God to be experienced. We were taught to mistrust our own souls-- and thus the Holy Spirit! The only way I was able to re-establish a healthy relationship with my religion was to become a bit of a mystic and an existentialist.
The book itself as a history, as a narrative of events for LGBT members of the Church is an excellent resource. I am proud of it, and this book makes it that much more accessible. It's flaws may limit its usefulness; I am afraid that Prince's biases weren't tempered enough that mainstream Church members will read it. But it is a step.
May 23, 2019
Greg Prince does it again. A beautifully tragic look into the experiences of LGBTQ folks in LDS church and the church's political maneuverings to bar homosexual couples from marriage in the United States. Should be required reading for all LDS church members.
December 13, 2019
I had high hopes for this book--the subject is of vital importance to the Church today and of personal interest (as a queer, asexual Mormon), and I think Prince's biography of David O. McKay is essential reading for all Mormons. I was disappointed with Prince's work here, which is still important.
Prince does cover a lot of ground, weaving together a narrative of the LDS church's teachings and actions relating, almost exclusively, to gay men since the 60s. Prince has access to loads of sources that are involved in these events, though the Church refused to grant him access to materials, which means he relies on largely anonymous sources for perspective on the inner workings of the Church. Little in the book will be new to those that have followed and read and been engaged in LGBTQ+ issues and Mormonism for the past decade or so, though there was some material that was new to me.
The book has two major shortcomings:
1. An almost exclusive focus on gay men, with only short chapters touching on lesbians, transgender Mormons, and intersex Mormons. Prince acknowledges this shortcoming and argues that its a reflection of the Church's own focus on gay men, which I think shows a lack of understanding of the breadth and diversity of queer Mormon experiences. This lack of understanding is further demonstrated in the "trans" chapter where he repeatedly uses out of date terminology and seems to radically misunderstand the trans Mormon experience (at least from my understanding of the trans Mormons I know and their reactions to Prince's work).
2. A tendency to make the worst possible case for the Church by decontextualizing information and editorializing in a way that obscures the distinction between fact and opinion. Look, the Church looks bad from what they actually did, there's no need for Prince to turn the Church into a Cheney-in-VICE (2018)-esque supervillain. This undermines Prince's intent and severely limits the audience that could find this book valuable. By trying to make the Church out to be worse than they are (which, again, in this particular arena is concerningly bad), Prince calls into question all the assertions that he makes. A part of this is the way that Prince fails to extend the Church any grace that they were acting in good faith and out of sincerely held beliefs. He could have done so and still held up the tragic and terrible consequences of those actions as evidence that they should change, but misses that opportunity.
Prince also seems to believe that if he can trace the origin of homosexuality to biology that the Church will suddenly accept it as a moral good, which seems misguided and oddly optimistic to me. Sure, such an understanding can lead to healthier discussion about homosexuality, but it seems to have little to no bearing on the way any given person views it *morally*. Anyway.
A book that had a lot of promise, but falls far short of its potential.
Prince does cover a lot of ground, weaving together a narrative of the LDS church's teachings and actions relating, almost exclusively, to gay men since the 60s. Prince has access to loads of sources that are involved in these events, though the Church refused to grant him access to materials, which means he relies on largely anonymous sources for perspective on the inner workings of the Church. Little in the book will be new to those that have followed and read and been engaged in LGBTQ+ issues and Mormonism for the past decade or so, though there was some material that was new to me.
The book has two major shortcomings:
1. An almost exclusive focus on gay men, with only short chapters touching on lesbians, transgender Mormons, and intersex Mormons. Prince acknowledges this shortcoming and argues that its a reflection of the Church's own focus on gay men, which I think shows a lack of understanding of the breadth and diversity of queer Mormon experiences. This lack of understanding is further demonstrated in the "trans" chapter where he repeatedly uses out of date terminology and seems to radically misunderstand the trans Mormon experience (at least from my understanding of the trans Mormons I know and their reactions to Prince's work).
2. A tendency to make the worst possible case for the Church by decontextualizing information and editorializing in a way that obscures the distinction between fact and opinion. Look, the Church looks bad from what they actually did, there's no need for Prince to turn the Church into a Cheney-in-VICE (2018)-esque supervillain. This undermines Prince's intent and severely limits the audience that could find this book valuable. By trying to make the Church out to be worse than they are (which, again, in this particular arena is concerningly bad), Prince calls into question all the assertions that he makes. A part of this is the way that Prince fails to extend the Church any grace that they were acting in good faith and out of sincerely held beliefs. He could have done so and still held up the tragic and terrible consequences of those actions as evidence that they should change, but misses that opportunity.
Prince also seems to believe that if he can trace the origin of homosexuality to biology that the Church will suddenly accept it as a moral good, which seems misguided and oddly optimistic to me. Sure, such an understanding can lead to healthier discussion about homosexuality, but it seems to have little to no bearing on the way any given person views it *morally*. Anyway.
A book that had a lot of promise, but falls far short of its potential.
January 16, 2023
I believe that this is an important book to read for all LDS members. This book shouldn’t be labelled as “anti-Mormon.” Greg Prince simply lays out the evolution of the leaders’ teachings about homosexuality and the involvement of the church in this issue politically. The reality is that the church’s stance on homosexuality has changed dramatically in the last several decades from teaching that masturbation causes homosexuality to now allowing openly gay individuals to serve LDS missions. These kind of positive changes occur because of members like Greg Prince in the church that seek to bring transparency and accountability even when it’s hard. This was not easy to read this book. It’s absolutely heartbreaking to read how damaging the church’s dialogue has been to LGBT individuals and the blatant discrimination towards LGBT individuals in the church. However, I also know that this kind of dialogue and discrimination unfortunately exist in many other religions in the world. It’s my hope that more space opens up for LGBT individuals in religions and for religious individuals in LGBT communities starting in our faith.
Also, I was not in the states at the time of prop 8. It was eye opening to learn of just how deeply the church was involved politically and the unintended consequences that unfold when the separation of church and state is meddled.
Also, I was not in the states at the time of prop 8. It was eye opening to learn of just how deeply the church was involved politically and the unintended consequences that unfold when the separation of church and state is meddled.
June 23, 2019
This book is good, but it feels a bit like Prince phoned it in relative to his other work. It needed more editing; it reuses quotes frequently; it starts its history late (basically in the 1960s or 1970s). I think it could have done more! The current book could be cut by about 1/3 by eliminating repetition. Then, it should be doubled with more material, particularly material from the first half of the 20th century. I want to give it about 3.5 stars.
That said, it's still an invaluable book. It consolidates a lot of records and events into one place that previously were scattered around the internet and not easily citeable. Probably every Mormon should read this book. And, typical of Prince, the prose is engaging. I got through the book quickly because it really held my attention.
The first critical contribution of the book is that it thoroughly documents that past General Authorities made statements that not only embraced a "nurture" view of homosexuality (even saying it was a proselytized lifestyle!) but also explicitly insisted that a biological explanation would violate or undermine moral law and the Mormon Plan of Salvation. That has really put us in a bind. Moreover, these views were not simply expressed as off-the-cuff remarks but were stated in key official venues and, most importantly, codified as Church policy. Those views, and the way they were spread and codified, did incalculable damage to LGBT folks raised in Mormon households, including in some cases the quasi-endorsed conversion therapy catastrophes. General Authorities have walked back some of those views, but they are still widely held among Mormons because the walkbalks have not been nearly as forceful, explicit, and widespread as the original statements.
The second critical contribution of the book is its description of Church initiatives to prevent the legalization of same sex marriage. Church leaders used a lot of their members' time and tithing dollars to fight political change, and the fight was based on the above-mentioned view of human biology as well as very flimsy--and often inappropriately used--evidence of the likely social effects of the policies in question. The latter issue led to a lot of big predictions about the consequences of same sex marriage--predictions that are not holding up well now (e.g. page 132; I guess time will tell). In any case, Church representatives and members were major players in the big marriage fights of the 1990s and 2000s, and in some cases were the main instigators of those fights (Hawaii, Nebraska, Nevada, Alaska, California).
The third critical contribution of the book is its description of the increasing use of "religious freedom" arguments in this fight. As Prince shows, those arguments have typically been based on misunderstandings of key anecdotes (such as the famous New Jersey gazebo incident). See, for example, pages 192 and 231. Check out page 172--the segregation comment. That one is a real doozy.
None of these contributions of the book are novel ideas or arguments. The value added is that Prince brought it all together into one place. Prior to this book I found it difficult to keep track of the sources and citations needed to discuss this issue. Now the book will be a useful reference. And even if you are reasonably familiar with the facts, I think you will find this book a very sobering read.
That said, it's still an invaluable book. It consolidates a lot of records and events into one place that previously were scattered around the internet and not easily citeable. Probably every Mormon should read this book. And, typical of Prince, the prose is engaging. I got through the book quickly because it really held my attention.
The first critical contribution of the book is that it thoroughly documents that past General Authorities made statements that not only embraced a "nurture" view of homosexuality (even saying it was a proselytized lifestyle!) but also explicitly insisted that a biological explanation would violate or undermine moral law and the Mormon Plan of Salvation. That has really put us in a bind. Moreover, these views were not simply expressed as off-the-cuff remarks but were stated in key official venues and, most importantly, codified as Church policy. Those views, and the way they were spread and codified, did incalculable damage to LGBT folks raised in Mormon households, including in some cases the quasi-endorsed conversion therapy catastrophes. General Authorities have walked back some of those views, but they are still widely held among Mormons because the walkbalks have not been nearly as forceful, explicit, and widespread as the original statements.
The second critical contribution of the book is its description of Church initiatives to prevent the legalization of same sex marriage. Church leaders used a lot of their members' time and tithing dollars to fight political change, and the fight was based on the above-mentioned view of human biology as well as very flimsy--and often inappropriately used--evidence of the likely social effects of the policies in question. The latter issue led to a lot of big predictions about the consequences of same sex marriage--predictions that are not holding up well now (e.g. page 132; I guess time will tell). In any case, Church representatives and members were major players in the big marriage fights of the 1990s and 2000s, and in some cases were the main instigators of those fights (Hawaii, Nebraska, Nevada, Alaska, California).
The third critical contribution of the book is its description of the increasing use of "religious freedom" arguments in this fight. As Prince shows, those arguments have typically been based on misunderstandings of key anecdotes (such as the famous New Jersey gazebo incident). See, for example, pages 192 and 231. Check out page 172--the segregation comment. That one is a real doozy.
None of these contributions of the book are novel ideas or arguments. The value added is that Prince brought it all together into one place. Prior to this book I found it difficult to keep track of the sources and citations needed to discuss this issue. Now the book will be a useful reference. And even if you are reasonably familiar with the facts, I think you will find this book a very sobering read.
April 17, 2019
A balanced, factual, thorough, informative, heartbreaking, shocking, and thought-provoking analysis of the Mormon church's teachings, policies, and political activities related to LGBTQ individuals. I wish EVERY person affiliated with Mormonism would read this book.
March 17, 2021
"The dangers I speak of come from the gay-lesbian movement, the feminist movement, and the ever-present challenge from the so-called scholars or intellectuals." (Mormon Leader, Boyd K. Packer)
WELL SHIT. 3 for 3! I am the most dangerous thing Mormonism has ever seen, I guess.
I'm here to tell me that you have NO IDEA how much the Mormon church is to blame for discrimination against the LGBTQIA+ community in the United States (I should say LG and maybe T, as they literally hardly recognize the other categories as realities). No idea. This book was impressively comprehensive, yet still digestible. It is organized by content and subject, rather than strictly chronologically, so I bounced around a lot. If you have any interest in EITHER the Mormon church OR the history of LGBTI rights in America, I highly recommend adding this book to your library. It is a treasure trove of information. And if you have been impacted by both interests, this book is a no-brainer.
This took me a long time to finish despite being fascinating. Why? Because it's non-fiction and I read a bunch of fiction books in between starting and finishing this book :D And also because it's pretty heavy content, particularly for me.
I was raised a California Mormon, and I'm queer (but did not realize until I was 30, because I wasn't allowed to have sex before getting married, and I was brainwashed in a homophobic and patriarchal cult!). When I think "Gay Rights" my mind blows up with "Prop 8." My family had a "Protect Marriage" sign on their lawn. My brother had a "Protect Marriage" profile picture on Facebook. In 2008, my father approached me and told me that the prophet believed that the gay marriage issue was so important that he had asked individuals who had the means to donate significant amounts of money to the cause. He then reiterated that this was coming from the prophet (whom I believed was literally god's spokesperson on earth). And he asked me if he could donate in my name. I expressed quite a bit of hesitation. However it wasn't my money, and in a way I saw it as directly (rather than passively) "follow(ing) the prophet" a phrase I'd chanted in primary songs as a kid as a reminder of obedience.
In public records, there are donations to Prop 8 (Same Sex Marriage Ban) in my name. This is tragic to me now. I am also on hate lists because of the public access to these records, and with good reason. The donations were made by my father (and made in my mother's and grandmother's name as well). Unfortunately this book doesn't mention anything about whether these leader-men were asked to donate in women's names or if he did it by choice. That was actually half of the reason I wanted to read the book and it wasn't mentioned. To me it seemed like individuals were secretly being asked to donate in women's names instead of their own names, because it doesn't look good for only white men in positions of power within the deeply sexist Mormon church to be the primary donors of cause opposing LGBTQ rights. And no... it really DOESN'T look good. I believe my father was cowardly to do this. He's never even had an actual problem with gay couples and always talks in the highest regard about some gay colleagues he had at Stanford in the early days of computer science. Again, the Mormon church is what taught him to donate. An estimated 40% of donations made to Prop 8 were from individuals within the Mormon church, or the church itself, and many of them came from Utah and not California. This was an issue that deeply affected people and caused LGBTQ people to die by suicide. Remind me why the highly political LDS Church should have the right to their tax-exempt status again?
I had gay friends and didn't really give a shit what they did, until the church gave me a reason to give a shit. KIDS ARE NOT HOMOPHOBIC. They are taught to be. I found myself feeling a lot of cognitive dissonance, and sadly, I let the "pious saint" in me win out, rather than questioning what I was being told by the church: questioning based on MY OWN REALITY which was that I had gay friends who had every right to fall in love with and have sex with whomever they wanted. At least one friend that I had giggled with excitedly about her new girlfriend! I was pushed further into the closet of brainwashing by Prop 8, and the closet of my own sexuality, of which I was entirely unaware, thanks to not only my extreme innocence but also my context.
As the book points out, where there was some amount of apathy towards the marriage issue itself by LGBTQ as a whole, the results of Prop 8 made people ANGRY (because something that had been given temporarily was now being taken away). So, the good fight was really sparked by this issue and gave people reason to fight and to care. It became less about rights, and much more personal, because of the despicable way that religion was framing the issue. And that is the reason for the title.
The church had very clear intentions in regards to the LGBTQ community. And to this day, they are disturbingly behind on social issues. LGBT youth suicide is still a systemic issue in Utah (highest rates in the nation) and it doesn't rank well for other mental health issues (and other issues -- Mormon Utah Country is considered fraud capital of the state and Utah in general has more fraud than most parts of the country. Could this be because Mormonism was founded by a fraud?). The church's intentions towards LGBTQ are clear: they have no place in the Mormon Plan of Salvation, thus no place in the church, thus no place in society at all. Mormons literally believe that their world view is fact; thus everyone else is living in their world. And what they would prefer is that there are no LGBTQIA+ individuals in their world. Because it contradicts their doctrine and authority, of which they are so protective.
The unintended consequence of their action was fueling the fire of social justice. They really pissed people off. And that started everyone--not just the LGBTQIA community itself--on a quest to understand what this issue was really about, and if religion is actually the authority on such matters or not. It was a fight between the morality of dogmatic religion and the morality of human rights.
WELL SHIT. 3 for 3! I am the most dangerous thing Mormonism has ever seen, I guess.
I'm here to tell me that you have NO IDEA how much the Mormon church is to blame for discrimination against the LGBTQIA+ community in the United States (I should say LG and maybe T, as they literally hardly recognize the other categories as realities). No idea. This book was impressively comprehensive, yet still digestible. It is organized by content and subject, rather than strictly chronologically, so I bounced around a lot. If you have any interest in EITHER the Mormon church OR the history of LGBTI rights in America, I highly recommend adding this book to your library. It is a treasure trove of information. And if you have been impacted by both interests, this book is a no-brainer.
This took me a long time to finish despite being fascinating. Why? Because it's non-fiction and I read a bunch of fiction books in between starting and finishing this book :D And also because it's pretty heavy content, particularly for me.
I was raised a California Mormon, and I'm queer (but did not realize until I was 30, because I wasn't allowed to have sex before getting married, and I was brainwashed in a homophobic and patriarchal cult!). When I think "Gay Rights" my mind blows up with "Prop 8." My family had a "Protect Marriage" sign on their lawn. My brother had a "Protect Marriage" profile picture on Facebook. In 2008, my father approached me and told me that the prophet believed that the gay marriage issue was so important that he had asked individuals who had the means to donate significant amounts of money to the cause. He then reiterated that this was coming from the prophet (whom I believed was literally god's spokesperson on earth). And he asked me if he could donate in my name. I expressed quite a bit of hesitation. However it wasn't my money, and in a way I saw it as directly (rather than passively) "follow(ing) the prophet" a phrase I'd chanted in primary songs as a kid as a reminder of obedience.
In public records, there are donations to Prop 8 (Same Sex Marriage Ban) in my name. This is tragic to me now. I am also on hate lists because of the public access to these records, and with good reason. The donations were made by my father (and made in my mother's and grandmother's name as well). Unfortunately this book doesn't mention anything about whether these leader-men were asked to donate in women's names or if he did it by choice. That was actually half of the reason I wanted to read the book and it wasn't mentioned. To me it seemed like individuals were secretly being asked to donate in women's names instead of their own names, because it doesn't look good for only white men in positions of power within the deeply sexist Mormon church to be the primary donors of cause opposing LGBTQ rights. And no... it really DOESN'T look good. I believe my father was cowardly to do this. He's never even had an actual problem with gay couples and always talks in the highest regard about some gay colleagues he had at Stanford in the early days of computer science. Again, the Mormon church is what taught him to donate. An estimated 40% of donations made to Prop 8 were from individuals within the Mormon church, or the church itself, and many of them came from Utah and not California. This was an issue that deeply affected people and caused LGBTQ people to die by suicide. Remind me why the highly political LDS Church should have the right to their tax-exempt status again?
I had gay friends and didn't really give a shit what they did, until the church gave me a reason to give a shit. KIDS ARE NOT HOMOPHOBIC. They are taught to be. I found myself feeling a lot of cognitive dissonance, and sadly, I let the "pious saint" in me win out, rather than questioning what I was being told by the church: questioning based on MY OWN REALITY which was that I had gay friends who had every right to fall in love with and have sex with whomever they wanted. At least one friend that I had giggled with excitedly about her new girlfriend! I was pushed further into the closet of brainwashing by Prop 8, and the closet of my own sexuality, of which I was entirely unaware, thanks to not only my extreme innocence but also my context.
As the book points out, where there was some amount of apathy towards the marriage issue itself by LGBTQ as a whole, the results of Prop 8 made people ANGRY (because something that had been given temporarily was now being taken away). So, the good fight was really sparked by this issue and gave people reason to fight and to care. It became less about rights, and much more personal, because of the despicable way that religion was framing the issue. And that is the reason for the title.
The church had very clear intentions in regards to the LGBTQ community. And to this day, they are disturbingly behind on social issues. LGBT youth suicide is still a systemic issue in Utah (highest rates in the nation) and it doesn't rank well for other mental health issues (and other issues -- Mormon Utah Country is considered fraud capital of the state and Utah in general has more fraud than most parts of the country. Could this be because Mormonism was founded by a fraud?). The church's intentions towards LGBTQ are clear: they have no place in the Mormon Plan of Salvation, thus no place in the church, thus no place in society at all. Mormons literally believe that their world view is fact; thus everyone else is living in their world. And what they would prefer is that there are no LGBTQIA+ individuals in their world. Because it contradicts their doctrine and authority, of which they are so protective.
The unintended consequence of their action was fueling the fire of social justice. They really pissed people off. And that started everyone--not just the LGBTQIA community itself--on a quest to understand what this issue was really about, and if religion is actually the authority on such matters or not. It was a fight between the morality of dogmatic religion and the morality of human rights.
September 26, 2019
4.5, rounding up.
There's so much information in this book on so many related topics. It will take me a while to process and consider what I've read.
I'm not sure what I expected, especially considering Prince is often listed specifically as an LDS historian, but this was an astonishingly even-handed, objective, and factual history of the history of LDS stance and their part in affecting (OK, let's be blunt -- manipulating) the political and social climate around LGBTQ rights and associated legislation.
Prince walks the reader through how political sausage gets made on both sides of the issue, and it's as often disturbing as it is educational. He reconstructs, using documents and interviews, what went on behind the scenes in meetings, parses the nuances of changes in LDS official documents, and compares/contrasts the various court rulings. I didn't sense that he was being an apologist for either side, but is acting as a reporter of the events. Prince is clear that he is not trying to write a complete history of the LGBTQ rights fight, but is trying to shed some light on a very specific slice of it. I think he succeeds in that.
He also succeeds in connecting the reader to individual stories from every demographic involved. We get excerpts of letters and interviews from many different types of people with widely varying beliefs and concerns. I felt this helped me understand more about the lives, motivations, and concerns of people on all sides of the topic.
Perhaps the larger takeaway here is that many of the tactics described in this book now are being used in other issues. Reproductive rights, anyone?
Again, it's going to take me a while to digest the rich content here, but I think it's an important and highly informative book for just about anyone interested in how Big Religion and political entities are manipulating each other, the public, and the political/legal systems.
There's so much information in this book on so many related topics. It will take me a while to process and consider what I've read.
I'm not sure what I expected, especially considering Prince is often listed specifically as an LDS historian, but this was an astonishingly even-handed, objective, and factual history of the history of LDS stance and their part in affecting (OK, let's be blunt -- manipulating) the political and social climate around LGBTQ rights and associated legislation.
Prince walks the reader through how political sausage gets made on both sides of the issue, and it's as often disturbing as it is educational. He reconstructs, using documents and interviews, what went on behind the scenes in meetings, parses the nuances of changes in LDS official documents, and compares/contrasts the various court rulings. I didn't sense that he was being an apologist for either side, but is acting as a reporter of the events. Prince is clear that he is not trying to write a complete history of the LGBTQ rights fight, but is trying to shed some light on a very specific slice of it. I think he succeeds in that.
He also succeeds in connecting the reader to individual stories from every demographic involved. We get excerpts of letters and interviews from many different types of people with widely varying beliefs and concerns. I felt this helped me understand more about the lives, motivations, and concerns of people on all sides of the topic.
Perhaps the larger takeaway here is that many of the tactics described in this book now are being used in other issues. Reproductive rights, anyone?
Again, it's going to take me a while to digest the rich content here, but I think it's an important and highly informative book for just about anyone interested in how Big Religion and political entities are manipulating each other, the public, and the political/legal systems.
September 24, 2024
“The Lord will spew out of his mouth those who oppose Prop 8 and they will be responsible for the sins of this generation.”
“Since when did everyone around you need to accept and follow your beliefs in order for you to treat them fairly.”
This was a hard read. It took me longer than I expected to finish it due to how heavy it is, my heart ached at the lengths an organization would go to be this hateful. Every time there was a movement to do something good, it was always for their own gain. There were so many quotes I highlighted and things I will be thinking about for a long time.
“Since when did everyone around you need to accept and follow your beliefs in order for you to treat them fairly.”
This was a hard read. It took me longer than I expected to finish it due to how heavy it is, my heart ached at the lengths an organization would go to be this hateful. Every time there was a movement to do something good, it was always for their own gain. There were so many quotes I highlighted and things I will be thinking about for a long time.
July 8, 2021
This was really hard to read, but is such an important book. All straight members of the church should be required to read this in order to better "Mourn with those that mourn, and comfort those that stand in need of comfort." Probably very triggering to LGBTQIA+ members, so if you fall into that category, maybe only read if you're in a really healthy/healed place.
December 13, 2023
A devastating and important read! Well researched!
April 23, 2025
This was eye opening and very frustrating at times. Oaks is doing wayyyy too much. Certainty is the enemy of tolerance fr!!!
July 28, 2019
Super informative history of the Mormon church’s relationship with LGBTQ folk and policies regarding gay rights. Some of it was a little repetitive, and maybe they rushed the editing a little to get it published, but I am so glad this thorough, compassionate book exists.
April 28, 2019
I finished this book a week ago and thought I could easily write a review, but it's more complicated than I thought. First, the book was well written. Second, it covered a large time period and was very thorough. Third, even though it had the details like a textbook it was a page turner. I'm so glad I read it, but it really was hard not to feel more anger and disgust at how my church has treated the LGBT community over the years. It seems to me that a church that has Jesus Christ in the title should be more loving and accepting of all people.
September 2, 2019
An important book that is informative, angering, and heartbreaking.
May 17, 2019
Greg's book provides an important overview of how the Church's policies and understandings of LGBTQ matters have evolved over time, and I'm grateful for what I learned in reading it. At times I also needed to do a lot of mental synthesis work to correct for bias, which unfortunately probably narrows the book's audience. A good balancing companion read is Tom Christofferson's 'That We May Be One.'
August 22, 2019
Wow, was this ever disappointing.
I am LDS and I am queer (transgender and asexual.) I was really excited to read this book as I've been following its development for quite a while. But upon finishing it I found myself extremely frustrated.
This book almost solely concentrates on cisgender gay men. There is a chapter about transgender people and a very short afterthought on intersex people. Otherwise it's all gay men all the time. I don't know if that's because it's easier for people to relate to gay men over other queer communities or what, but it was frustrating to read and see my lesbian and bisexual friends excluded.
There is absolutely nothing on the asexual Mormon experience. We are generally overlooked, but in a book that was purported to be the overarching story of the queer Mormon experience, that was disappointing. And silence for on aromantic Mormons as well.
The most irritating thing, though, was Prince's chapter on transgender people. First, he clearly doesn't understand what it's like to be trans and LDS, which is forgivable since he doesn't have that life experience. It's less forgivable knowing that he had the ability to interview trans Mormons extensively and ended up skimming the barest of surfaces on being trans.
He also made grammatical errors for the ENTIRE chapter about trans Mormons. The word "transgender" is an adjective. It describes an attribute of a person. So I cannot write "the transgenders are cranky about this book," but I can write "the transgender people are cranky about this book." Similarly, you cannot say "Kris is transgendered" because the word is not a noun. You would not describe a black cat saying "The cat is blacked." It doesn't work like that. It's a small detail but it's an important one and it made it glaringly obvious that Prince did not research transgender people much.
The good things: this book is impeccably researched (with the exception of the transgender and intersex chapters.) It must have been a huge undertaking to write. As a member of the queer Mormon community, I knew a lot of the information Prince talked about but definitely not everything. I had a newborn in 2008 so I missed a lot of what was going on with Proposition 8 and learned a LOT from those chapters. I also learned a lot about what the Church taught about being gay prior to the 21st century.
Overall, this book was a good start, but it glossed over way too many aspects of the queer Mormon experience to be a truly good book. Lesbian, bisexual and asexual people exist. Transgender and intersex people exist. When writing about LGBTQ+ topics, don't forget about those of us who identify as something other than gay.
I am LDS and I am queer (transgender and asexual.) I was really excited to read this book as I've been following its development for quite a while. But upon finishing it I found myself extremely frustrated.
This book almost solely concentrates on cisgender gay men. There is a chapter about transgender people and a very short afterthought on intersex people. Otherwise it's all gay men all the time. I don't know if that's because it's easier for people to relate to gay men over other queer communities or what, but it was frustrating to read and see my lesbian and bisexual friends excluded.
There is absolutely nothing on the asexual Mormon experience. We are generally overlooked, but in a book that was purported to be the overarching story of the queer Mormon experience, that was disappointing. And silence for on aromantic Mormons as well.
The most irritating thing, though, was Prince's chapter on transgender people. First, he clearly doesn't understand what it's like to be trans and LDS, which is forgivable since he doesn't have that life experience. It's less forgivable knowing that he had the ability to interview trans Mormons extensively and ended up skimming the barest of surfaces on being trans.
He also made grammatical errors for the ENTIRE chapter about trans Mormons. The word "transgender" is an adjective. It describes an attribute of a person. So I cannot write "the transgenders are cranky about this book," but I can write "the transgender people are cranky about this book." Similarly, you cannot say "Kris is transgendered" because the word is not a noun. You would not describe a black cat saying "The cat is blacked." It doesn't work like that. It's a small detail but it's an important one and it made it glaringly obvious that Prince did not research transgender people much.
The good things: this book is impeccably researched (with the exception of the transgender and intersex chapters.) It must have been a huge undertaking to write. As a member of the queer Mormon community, I knew a lot of the information Prince talked about but definitely not everything. I had a newborn in 2008 so I missed a lot of what was going on with Proposition 8 and learned a LOT from those chapters. I also learned a lot about what the Church taught about being gay prior to the 21st century.
Overall, this book was a good start, but it glossed over way too many aspects of the queer Mormon experience to be a truly good book. Lesbian, bisexual and asexual people exist. Transgender and intersex people exist. When writing about LGBTQ+ topics, don't forget about those of us who identify as something other than gay.
June 11, 2019
This is one of the best books I’ve ever read. It honestly and candidly presents information and timelines of doctrinal LDS teachings and lays out the consequences of leadership decisions. Prince acknowledges the church refused to contribute to his book, however, that seems to further solidify the historical accuracy of his research and supports the secrecy and lack of tolerance in the dark shadows of Mormonism. Dive into this book if you are open to the truth and can stomach the fact that leaders and prophets aren’t always right.
April 28, 2019
Prince does a fantastic job showing mistakes (or poor decisions, you choose) the church made, as well as where their actions fell in terms of the majority opinion of US citizens.
One of the most influential reads of my life.
One of the most influential reads of my life.
December 11, 2019
Fantastic read.
May 15, 2019
A very good look at the history of LGBTQ issues and the LDS Church. Prince isn't a historian or full time author (I don't think so anyway, given that his training is in dentistry and psychology), but he does a pretty good job of looking at a difficult subject, complete with what appear to be fairly well placed sources.
The book is strengthened by the use of stories from many people impacted by the Church's positions on this issue over time. Doctrine simply sounds like doctrine to those with faith in that doctrine, and it is only by hearing stories and understanding the difficult (next to impossible) position of real people that you can feel empathy and comprehend why this is not the same as other "sins."
I wouldn't have minded seeing at least some discussion of the church and homosexuality in the 1800s - I've often wondered how Joseph Smith would have addressed such individuals given the development of outside the box approach to marriage and sexuality in the early church. I suppose that people simply couldn't let on about their feelings at that point in society so apparently he never had to deal with it, but I still would have liked to have heard Prince's thoughts on it.
I also felt that as comprehensive as Prince's treatment of the various historical developments and issues is, there is more to be said about how this has played out in church leadership. We may never know how the debates between "mercy" leaders and "justice" leaders played out, (if there were indeed any), but that is an additional portion of the story I would like to hear.
Finally, despite being troubled by multiple developments in church positions over the course of time, I still found myself crying with compassion and hope as I read of the various times representatives of the church and the gay community actually got together and talked for real. The fundamental differences in opinion haven't been wiped away, but those moments of individuals on either side learning that there are real people on the other side and coming to respect and even love each other give me hope that someday we will make it through this. There is a way between the rock and the hard place that the LDS Church is actually uniquely situated to forge, given the doctrine of ongoing revelation. For all of those involved I hope people can find that route. Otherwise I simply can't understand the juxtaposition of all of this and a truly loving God.
The book is strengthened by the use of stories from many people impacted by the Church's positions on this issue over time. Doctrine simply sounds like doctrine to those with faith in that doctrine, and it is only by hearing stories and understanding the difficult (next to impossible) position of real people that you can feel empathy and comprehend why this is not the same as other "sins."
I wouldn't have minded seeing at least some discussion of the church and homosexuality in the 1800s - I've often wondered how Joseph Smith would have addressed such individuals given the development of outside the box approach to marriage and sexuality in the early church. I suppose that people simply couldn't let on about their feelings at that point in society so apparently he never had to deal with it, but I still would have liked to have heard Prince's thoughts on it.
I also felt that as comprehensive as Prince's treatment of the various historical developments and issues is, there is more to be said about how this has played out in church leadership. We may never know how the debates between "mercy" leaders and "justice" leaders played out, (if there were indeed any), but that is an additional portion of the story I would like to hear.
Finally, despite being troubled by multiple developments in church positions over the course of time, I still found myself crying with compassion and hope as I read of the various times representatives of the church and the gay community actually got together and talked for real. The fundamental differences in opinion haven't been wiped away, but those moments of individuals on either side learning that there are real people on the other side and coming to respect and even love each other give me hope that someday we will make it through this. There is a way between the rock and the hard place that the LDS Church is actually uniquely situated to forge, given the doctrine of ongoing revelation. For all of those involved I hope people can find that route. Otherwise I simply can't understand the juxtaposition of all of this and a truly loving God.
Read
October 11, 2021I don't know how to rate this book. Do I think it's an important book? Yes. Was it enjoyable to read? Absolutely not.
Dr. Prince attempts a somewhat nuanced narration of the history of the intersection of faith and sexuality in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. His narration is not balanced nor even handed due to a lack of primary sources for some groups, which he admits in the introduction. There is a great deal of empathy for LGBTQ+ Latter-day saints.
Prince's editorial comments are not balanced at all and portray the church as a malevolent and somewhat clumsy organization. I hasten to add that the evidence presented in the book supports that view when looking at the church only through the lens of LGBTQ+ rights.
On the other hand, a single quote at the end of the book was quite disturbing to me because of its gross misrepresentation of the facts. Prince makes the argument that the Book of Mormon teaches a doctrine of universal salvation and then quotes Alma 1:4. The Book of Mormon does not teach a doctrine of universal salvation and the scripture quoted is spoken by a man named Nehor, which the text characterizes as an antichrist and a threat to the people. His teachings do not reflect the teachings of the Book of Mormon nor the historical soteriology of the church.
Prince identifies himself as a former bishop. It is baffling to me that a former bishop and a respected historian (despite no formal training in the field) would make such an obvious mistake. It is also baffling to me that the statement made its way into the final draft. The fact, along with the highly colored editorial comments shakes my confidence in Prince's willingness to present the facts with all of their nuances, as I believe he did in David O. McKay and the Rise of Modern Mormonism.
Overall, I would still recommend this book to anyone who is looking to educate themselves about the intersection of faith and sexuality in the church, with the caveat that this should not be the end of their search for information, but a start.
Dr. Prince attempts a somewhat nuanced narration of the history of the intersection of faith and sexuality in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. His narration is not balanced nor even handed due to a lack of primary sources for some groups, which he admits in the introduction. There is a great deal of empathy for LGBTQ+ Latter-day saints.
Prince's editorial comments are not balanced at all and portray the church as a malevolent and somewhat clumsy organization. I hasten to add that the evidence presented in the book supports that view when looking at the church only through the lens of LGBTQ+ rights.
On the other hand, a single quote at the end of the book was quite disturbing to me because of its gross misrepresentation of the facts. Prince makes the argument that the Book of Mormon teaches a doctrine of universal salvation and then quotes Alma 1:4. The Book of Mormon does not teach a doctrine of universal salvation and the scripture quoted is spoken by a man named Nehor, which the text characterizes as an antichrist and a threat to the people. His teachings do not reflect the teachings of the Book of Mormon nor the historical soteriology of the church.
Prince identifies himself as a former bishop. It is baffling to me that a former bishop and a respected historian (despite no formal training in the field) would make such an obvious mistake. It is also baffling to me that the statement made its way into the final draft. The fact, along with the highly colored editorial comments shakes my confidence in Prince's willingness to present the facts with all of their nuances, as I believe he did in David O. McKay and the Rise of Modern Mormonism.
Overall, I would still recommend this book to anyone who is looking to educate themselves about the intersection of faith and sexuality in the church, with the caveat that this should not be the end of their search for information, but a start.
May 8, 2019
I really enjoyed this book, and find it incredibly useful to have all this recent history in one volume. I often agree with Greg's interpretations of events. However, at the heart of his analysis are at least three problematic assumptions, each of which is quite common in discussions of this issue, so they're not at all unique to him:
1. He believes that beliefs about the etiology of homosexual orientation are inevitably determinative of one's beliefs about the morality of homosexual behavior. He seems to think that if you think homosexual orientation is hard-wired, you will logically reject moral condemnation of homosexual sex, and that if you morally condemn homosexual relationships, it is inferable that you reject the scientific consensus on homosexuality's cause.
2. He believes that the question of homosexuality's etiology is logically connected to the question of its fixity or mutability. In other words, he seems to think that if homosexual orientation had no biological component, it would follow that homosexual orientation could necessarily be "changed" (in the same way that homosexual orientation would be immutable if it could be shown to be entirely genetic). And that historical actors considering these issues necessarily think similarly.
3. He believes that belief in the mutability of homosexual orientation is tantamount to believing that homosexual orientation is a "choice". So if a person believes (however absurdly) that reparative therapy works, for example, that person necessarily believes that homosexual orientation is "chosen".
These three assumptions are false, and they regularly impact his analysis and conclusions in problematic ways.
I may expand on this later...
1. He believes that beliefs about the etiology of homosexual orientation are inevitably determinative of one's beliefs about the morality of homosexual behavior. He seems to think that if you think homosexual orientation is hard-wired, you will logically reject moral condemnation of homosexual sex, and that if you morally condemn homosexual relationships, it is inferable that you reject the scientific consensus on homosexuality's cause.
2. He believes that the question of homosexuality's etiology is logically connected to the question of its fixity or mutability. In other words, he seems to think that if homosexual orientation had no biological component, it would follow that homosexual orientation could necessarily be "changed" (in the same way that homosexual orientation would be immutable if it could be shown to be entirely genetic). And that historical actors considering these issues necessarily think similarly.
3. He believes that belief in the mutability of homosexual orientation is tantamount to believing that homosexual orientation is a "choice". So if a person believes (however absurdly) that reparative therapy works, for example, that person necessarily believes that homosexual orientation is "chosen".
These three assumptions are false, and they regularly impact his analysis and conclusions in problematic ways.
I may expand on this later...
January 29, 2020
I realize there is a lot of love for this book out there, and it’s certainly advocacy. I just wanted to flag some issues I see overlooked:
Should have been titled “cis gay men and the Mormon church.” Historians should know how to read archival gaps and institutional erasure. Prince confines himself to the one group the institutional church recognizes. Lampshading that limitation instead of working to overcome it is disappointing.
The organization jumped around a lot and I felt like it lacked synthesis. A more chronological structure would illuminate the complex and sometimes contradictory stances held by the church, whereas a topical approach allows for simple narratives.
Uses “transgender” as a noun instead of an adjective.
Limits discussion of childlessness to the (short!) chapter on women when many gay men also find childlessness a painful aspect of celibacy. This promotes gender roles that the LGBT community has worked to refute.
I don’t fully buy his argument that fully accepting a biological model will precipitate change. As a graduate of the BYU genetics major, I can confirm there are people actively working on apologetics for that and people will believe what they want to believe.
Neglects LGBT criticism of ally-led organizations like Encircle and Mormons Building Bridges — tends to flatten the issues in favor of a simplified march towards progress.
Nonetheless, a useful starting point for anyone who wants a compilation of the basic history. Prince is especially useful for insight into what’s going on behind the scenes in the Church Office Building. Clearly written from a place of love — just with significant blind spots.
Should have been titled “cis gay men and the Mormon church.” Historians should know how to read archival gaps and institutional erasure. Prince confines himself to the one group the institutional church recognizes. Lampshading that limitation instead of working to overcome it is disappointing.
The organization jumped around a lot and I felt like it lacked synthesis. A more chronological structure would illuminate the complex and sometimes contradictory stances held by the church, whereas a topical approach allows for simple narratives.
Uses “transgender” as a noun instead of an adjective.
Limits discussion of childlessness to the (short!) chapter on women when many gay men also find childlessness a painful aspect of celibacy. This promotes gender roles that the LGBT community has worked to refute.
I don’t fully buy his argument that fully accepting a biological model will precipitate change. As a graduate of the BYU genetics major, I can confirm there are people actively working on apologetics for that and people will believe what they want to believe.
Neglects LGBT criticism of ally-led organizations like Encircle and Mormons Building Bridges — tends to flatten the issues in favor of a simplified march towards progress.
Nonetheless, a useful starting point for anyone who wants a compilation of the basic history. Prince is especially useful for insight into what’s going on behind the scenes in the Church Office Building. Clearly written from a place of love — just with significant blind spots.
January 20, 2022
It's always a little strange reading a history occurring during your lifetime, especially when you were aware of the events and lived somewhat adjacent to them. I lived in California during Prop 22 and again during Prop 8. As a member of the Church I experienced how they affected my local congregations. I remember a Saturday spent at a PCH intersection waving a "Yes to 8" flag with other members of my church. I remember a Sunday, after the passage of Prop 8, encountering a counter protest in front of the church building that included members of my congregation. My ward was deeply divided over the issue.
Since that time, my views on gay marriage, homosexuality, and LGBTQ issues have greatly evolved. I'm saddened by and reject the Church teachings and policies that have led to the discrimination and demonization of gays and lesbians. Understanding history informs the present; setting us up for a better future. I have hope for a revised future edition of this work to feature a new ending where LGBTQ individuals, and gay marriage, find full acceptance by the Church.
The Christ I have faith in was a champion for the downtrodden and disadvantaged. Full acceptance and love is his way.
Since that time, my views on gay marriage, homosexuality, and LGBTQ issues have greatly evolved. I'm saddened by and reject the Church teachings and policies that have led to the discrimination and demonization of gays and lesbians. Understanding history informs the present; setting us up for a better future. I have hope for a revised future edition of this work to feature a new ending where LGBTQ individuals, and gay marriage, find full acceptance by the Church.
The Christ I have faith in was a champion for the downtrodden and disadvantaged. Full acceptance and love is his way.
May 9, 2020
I was very disappointed in this book, but not surprised. Gregory Prince has for the past 20 years been increasingly critical of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, finding fault with Church leaders and Church doctrines and policies. Prince continues to promulgate his views that people with same-sex attraction are genetically born that way and cannot change, directly contrary to the latest and best scientific research such as (1) the comprehensive study published in Scientific American in 2019: https://www.scientificamerican.com/ar... (2) Leading researcher Professor Michael Bailey et al.'s 2016 study https://www.psychologicalscience.org/... (3) University of Utah Professor Lisa Diamond's 2018 study:
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/...
Without apology I recommend my book: Mormonism & Homosexuality, published in 2018 which covers the science and the Church's doctrinal statements and history of inter-action with the LGBT community much more thoroughly.
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/...
Without apology I recommend my book: Mormonism & Homosexuality, published in 2018 which covers the science and the Church's doctrinal statements and history of inter-action with the LGBT community much more thoroughly.
November 14, 2019
A book that explains the ripple affects the church has had on the LGBT community, from heartbreaking accounts of unintended consequences, to accounts of interactions (both positive and negative) between the LGBT community and the church.
Very emotionally cathartic for those who grew up as both gay and part of the mormon church.
Prince strives to offer centrist viewpoint on topical issues involving the LGBT community and the mormon church, even allowing all parties to lend insight; it's not mean to be a critique of the church itself, but rather a topical journey on how the leaders within the church have treated homosexuals over time and what lengths the leadership have gone to reconcile their doctrinal beliefs and the real people that live in the real world.
Very emotionally cathartic for those who grew up as both gay and part of the mormon church.
Prince strives to offer centrist viewpoint on topical issues involving the LGBT community and the mormon church, even allowing all parties to lend insight; it's not mean to be a critique of the church itself, but rather a topical journey on how the leaders within the church have treated homosexuals over time and what lengths the leadership have gone to reconcile their doctrinal beliefs and the real people that live in the real world.
February 11, 2022
I spent most of the book being confused about the presentation and layout, only to get to the end and realize that although Prince has written some historical Mormon works, he doesn’t actually have any background or training in the subject. That is clearly felt in this book: where I was looking for a legal and political analysis, I found hard to follow narratives and random emotional appeals. He had definitely done some extensive research for this book and it had some interesting aspects, but I would use it mostly as a jumping off point for individual research as opposed to an authoritative work on the subject.
April 26, 2025
After reading this, I’m so curious to hear how Prince stays active in the LDS church and more on his views of church leadership and change in policy and practices. While fairly academic, there’s no hiding all of Prince’s opinions and I like this book more for it. How could you listen to and share the stories that magnify and personify the statistic and facts he shared and not feel deeply and have substantial opinions on the matter? I liked how the book was organized topically and not chronologically. It will be curious to come back to this book in 50 years and see what has shifted in the church.
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