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Symbol or Substance?: A Dialogue on the Eucharist with C. S. Lewis, Billy Graham and J. R. R. Tolkien
In this engaging fictional conversation, Peter Kreeft gives credible voices to C. S. Lewis, J. R. R. Tolkien, and Billy Graham as they discuss one of the most contentious questions in the history of Christianity: Is Jesus symbolically or substantially present in the Eucharist?
These widely respected modern Christian witnesses represent three important Western theological traditions. Graham, an ordained Southern Baptist minister who traversed the world and the airwaves to spread the good news of salvation, represents evangelical Protestantism. Lewis, an Oxford professor, a prolific Christian apologist, and the author of The Chronicles of Narnia, was a member of the Church of England. Also an Oxford don, Tolkien was a friend of Lewis, the author of The Lord of the Rings, and a Roman Catholic.
While Lewis and Tolkien likely discussed the Eucharist during their long friendship, the conversation in this book never took place—but it could have, says Kreeft, who faithfully presents the views of these three impressive men.
These widely respected modern Christian witnesses represent three important Western theological traditions. Graham, an ordained Southern Baptist minister who traversed the world and the airwaves to spread the good news of salvation, represents evangelical Protestantism. Lewis, an Oxford professor, a prolific Christian apologist, and the author of The Chronicles of Narnia, was a member of the Church of England. Also an Oxford don, Tolkien was a friend of Lewis, the author of The Lord of the Rings, and a Roman Catholic.
While Lewis and Tolkien likely discussed the Eucharist during their long friendship, the conversation in this book never took place—but it could have, says Kreeft, who faithfully presents the views of these three impressive men.
232 pages, Paperback
First published January 20, 2019
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About the author
Peter Kreeft
197 books1,068 followersPeter Kreeft is an American philosopher and prolific author of over eighty books on Christian theology, philosophy, and apologetics. A convert from Protestantism to Catholicism, his journey was shaped by his study of Church history, Gothic architecture, and Thomistic thought. He earned his BA from Calvin College, an MA and PhD from Fordham University, and pursued further studies at Yale. Since 1965, he has taught philosophy at Boston College and also at The King’s College. Kreeft is known for formulating “Twenty Arguments for the Existence of God” with Ronald K. Tacelli, featured in their Handbook of Christian Apologetics. A strong advocate for unity among Christians, he emphasizes shared belief in Christ over denominational differences.
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Displaying 1 - 30 of 40 reviews
July 19, 2019
It’s an interesting thought exercise: How would a conversation go between three Christian heavyweights who don’t quite agree? And let’s spice it up a bit by inserting the most Catholic thing there is, the Eucharist! Kreeft writes that one of the reasons he focused this fictional conversation on the Eucharist is “that for me as a Roman Catholic the Eucharist is what it cannot be for a Protestant, viz., the source, summit, sum, and substance of my Christian life.”
The book is not a lecture on why non-Catholics are wrong. It’s not a thinly veiled list of reasons you should convert (or feel justified in your Catholicism). It is, instead, an invitation to a deeper appreciation for the faith we share as Christians. Kreeft is entertaining and challenging in his presentation, and there were a few times I laughed out loud. (I wasn’t expecting that!)
The book is not a lecture on why non-Catholics are wrong. It’s not a thinly veiled list of reasons you should convert (or feel justified in your Catholicism). It is, instead, an invitation to a deeper appreciation for the faith we share as Christians. Kreeft is entertaining and challenging in his presentation, and there were a few times I laughed out loud. (I wasn’t expecting that!)
January 3, 2022
I really enjoyed reading this "supposal" dialog, and truly I think it would be a valuable text in Wheaton's Christian Thought curriculum. (You've already got a verified Wheaton trifecta in Graham, Lewis, and Tolkien!) I think this book is valuable for evangelical readers bringing a new light to certain evangelical prejudices of Catholicism, pointing out strong scriptural basis in philosophy, often more-literal interpretations, and the role of grace in Catholic dogmas Protestants generally and evangelicals specifically tend to mindlessly classify as legalistic.
However, the weakness in the book comes with its definitively Catholic perspective. While I believe that Kreeft attempted to portray Graham's perspective in good faith, I do not think he succeeded in presenting a full and thoughtful evangelical perspective. While he presented a basic Reformed/evangelical interpretation of the nature of communion and Jesus's teachings at the Last Supper accurately, Graham's responses to Lewis and Tolkien generally amount to "well it just doesn't seem/feel in line to me" rather than an actual biblical objection. Furthermore, the conversation involves multiple digressions on the nature of grace and works, but without ever engaging Ephesians 2:8-10. And while Tolkien makes appeals to what the church fathers said about the primacy of the Church's authority, Graham never makes a response of the comments of church fathers on the primacy of Scripture, such as Gregory of Nyssa, Athanasius, and Cyril of Jerusalem (although that might be an argument a Lutheran would be more likely to make than an evangelical).
However, the weakness in the book comes with its definitively Catholic perspective. While I believe that Kreeft attempted to portray Graham's perspective in good faith, I do not think he succeeded in presenting a full and thoughtful evangelical perspective. While he presented a basic Reformed/evangelical interpretation of the nature of communion and Jesus's teachings at the Last Supper accurately, Graham's responses to Lewis and Tolkien generally amount to "well it just doesn't seem/feel in line to me" rather than an actual biblical objection. Furthermore, the conversation involves multiple digressions on the nature of grace and works, but without ever engaging Ephesians 2:8-10. And while Tolkien makes appeals to what the church fathers said about the primacy of the Church's authority, Graham never makes a response of the comments of church fathers on the primacy of Scripture, such as Gregory of Nyssa, Athanasius, and Cyril of Jerusalem (although that might be an argument a Lutheran would be more likely to make than an evangelical).
May 30, 2021
Un libro soberbio de apologética a partir de la conversación ficticia entre Lewis (anglicano), Graham (protestante) y Tolkien católico, en torno a temas clave sobre la fe, que marcan además las diferencias entre las las distintas iglesias cristianas.
De una forma sencilla, pero a la vez creo que bien argumentada, con el formato de la conversación, el autor esgrime argumentos y contraargumentos de los 3 personajes para intentar explicar las controversias y llegar a algún punto en común.
EL libro es francamente bueno, puesto que no sólo trata de la Eucaristía, como principal tema espinoso, sino que toca otros muchos; la interpretación de los textos sagrados, la fe y las obras, la sacramentalidad...
Puede ser de mucho provecho tanto para creyentes como para no creyentes, puesto que el estilo del libro es ágil, no es denso en sus explicaciones, y al contrastar 3 visiones diferentes con sus matices, ayuda a entender mejor las diferencias.
En resumen, un libro muy recomendable.
De una forma sencilla, pero a la vez creo que bien argumentada, con el formato de la conversación, el autor esgrime argumentos y contraargumentos de los 3 personajes para intentar explicar las controversias y llegar a algún punto en común.
EL libro es francamente bueno, puesto que no sólo trata de la Eucaristía, como principal tema espinoso, sino que toca otros muchos; la interpretación de los textos sagrados, la fe y las obras, la sacramentalidad...
Puede ser de mucho provecho tanto para creyentes como para no creyentes, puesto que el estilo del libro es ágil, no es denso en sus explicaciones, y al contrastar 3 visiones diferentes con sus matices, ayuda a entender mejor las diferencias.
En resumen, un libro muy recomendable.
December 7, 2019
Really quite a joy to read and it really comes off as a conversation. Also really well done is how the various positions are argued. Like Aquinas, Kreeft puts forward good objections with now straw men lounging around.
December 26, 2024
Good theological dialogue, but now quite working on a literary level - Kreeft struggles to give the three main characters distinctive and convincing voices.
April 27, 2019
This is a really excellent debate on the topic of the Eucharist. Kreeft does not create straw men, but allows each participant to argue in their best form. A very good Christian book to read.
July 25, 2019
The Tolkien character frustrated me quite a bit. I found him quite insufferable!
Somewhat interesting discussion/debate over the differing theologies of the Eucharist...
I highly doubt I will ever feel the need or desire to re-read this one... and I feel like the target audience for this might be quite small... I love theology and I was getting bored at times with this book.
Somewhat interesting discussion/debate over the differing theologies of the Eucharist...
I highly doubt I will ever feel the need or desire to re-read this one... and I feel like the target audience for this might be quite small... I love theology and I was getting bored at times with this book.
April 1, 2019
Quite an interesting read. I learned a lot about what evangelicals believe about communion as well as gained a deeper understanding of what my own Catholic faith believes about the Eucharist.
July 15, 2023
I enjoyed this fictional conversation! I learned so much about the beliefs of Roman Catholics and Anglicans (specifically Anglo-Catholics). I was also given some insight about how Catholics view Protestants. Some of the Catholic versus Protestant arguments were new to me and have made me want to dig deeper into my own Baptist beliefs. Most importantly, this book gives a great example of how Christians should disagree. We should debate among ourselves in order to find the truth but we shouldn’t forget about what we have in common: the death and resurrection of Christ.
As a Baptist, I do take issue with many of the points within this book. That’s to be expected considering the fact that the author is Catholic. The author does say in his introduction that he’s studied more of Lewis, so building a voice for Lewis would be easiest. Additionally, the author shares beliefs with Tolkien, so of course it’s easier for him to speak for Tolkien. That said, the author’s voice for Graham is the weakest. There are multiple instances in their conversation where Lewis or Tolkien look to Scripture to prove a point or refute the other, but Graham never has such an instance. This is odd especially because of how often Graham appeals to sola scriptura as the reason for his beliefs.
Putting the 500 year old debates aside between Catholics and Protestants aside, it’s an awesome thought experiment to ponder on the direction a sincere conversation between these three great men would have gone. Ultimately, I couldn’t recommend this book more.
As a Baptist, I do take issue with many of the points within this book. That’s to be expected considering the fact that the author is Catholic. The author does say in his introduction that he’s studied more of Lewis, so building a voice for Lewis would be easiest. Additionally, the author shares beliefs with Tolkien, so of course it’s easier for him to speak for Tolkien. That said, the author’s voice for Graham is the weakest. There are multiple instances in their conversation where Lewis or Tolkien look to Scripture to prove a point or refute the other, but Graham never has such an instance. This is odd especially because of how often Graham appeals to sola scriptura as the reason for his beliefs.
Putting the 500 year old debates aside between Catholics and Protestants aside, it’s an awesome thought experiment to ponder on the direction a sincere conversation between these three great men would have gone. Ultimately, I couldn’t recommend this book more.
November 21, 2023
Not a very nuanced discussion on the Sacrament. It appears the author ping pongs between memorialism and transubstantiation. It is the standard fallacy that real presence is transubstantiation. Lewis was basically placed outside of Anglicanism into RC theology. John Calvin’s position on the sacrament was very shallow too.
August 28, 2019
Dr. Kreeft really has a gift for conjuring up these imaginary discussions. This book almost reads itself. I had barely started and found myself having read half of it already. I liked it and would recommend it.
November 1, 2019
What a fun and thought provoking read! An imagined conversation between three spiritual giants on the place, nature, and purpose of the Eucharist.
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October 6, 2025third year of med school really slowing me down
May 24, 2019
This book was an amusing, fascinating, entertaining, and spiritually nourishing read. I once heard Peter Kreeft give a lecture at a conference back in 2012 that Ravi Zacharias was also part of. I highly recommend this book.
April 23, 2024
I love to read a well written, and well thought out dialogue. It is sad that they are not commonplace anymore, and thus I feel a jolt of joy to know that Kreeft has written a dialogues himself, a few excellent dialogues. Symbol or Substance was quick witted, well thought out, lighthearted and engaging without cheapening or treating the very serious subject matter lightly.
personally, I found this to be a quick read. It clocks in slightly about 200 pages, I read it in a weekend. (a very delightful weekend, of course). but while this book was quick and short, it was not shallow or unintelligent.
Symbol or substance is an imaginary conversation between Billy Graham, C.S. Lewis, and J.R.R. Tolkien, in which they discuss the Eucharist. The question is weather or not it is indeed the body and blood, soul and divinity of Christ, or a symbol which the faithful consume. Are certain biblical passages to interpreted literally? Do we need a material sacrament in order to be saved and to receive the grace of God? What about the good thief? Didn't he only have faith? These questions (and more) are discussed from the point of view of a Roman Catholic, Anglican, and Protestant. With a few points spoken by Graham's imaginary southern baptist driver (playfully referred to as 'Guy). I found the entire work to be highly engaging, however I especially enjoyed the exchange between Tolkien and Lewis. There beliefs and similar but not identical, and since they were friends they are often lumped together without distinction.
I would recommend that everyone read this book. Especially if you don't know much, or anything at all, about the Eucharist. It will make you think seriously about an important topic. It will make you think logically about opposing ideas, and ask questions that might make you a little bit uncomfortable.
personally, I found this to be a quick read. It clocks in slightly about 200 pages, I read it in a weekend. (a very delightful weekend, of course). but while this book was quick and short, it was not shallow or unintelligent.
Symbol or substance is an imaginary conversation between Billy Graham, C.S. Lewis, and J.R.R. Tolkien, in which they discuss the Eucharist. The question is weather or not it is indeed the body and blood, soul and divinity of Christ, or a symbol which the faithful consume. Are certain biblical passages to interpreted literally? Do we need a material sacrament in order to be saved and to receive the grace of God? What about the good thief? Didn't he only have faith? These questions (and more) are discussed from the point of view of a Roman Catholic, Anglican, and Protestant. With a few points spoken by Graham's imaginary southern baptist driver (playfully referred to as 'Guy). I found the entire work to be highly engaging, however I especially enjoyed the exchange between Tolkien and Lewis. There beliefs and similar but not identical, and since they were friends they are often lumped together without distinction.
I would recommend that everyone read this book. Especially if you don't know much, or anything at all, about the Eucharist. It will make you think seriously about an important topic. It will make you think logically about opposing ideas, and ask questions that might make you a little bit uncomfortable.
November 26, 2021
Kreeft’s fictional dialogue between J.R. Tolkien, C. S. Lewis, and Billy Graham focuses on Roman Catholic, Anglican, and Protestant theologies of the Eucharist. The book is a thoughtful defense of the Roman Catholic position on the actual presence of Christ in the Eucharist, a position Tolkien defends. Kreeft is sincere in his goal of allowing the Anglican and Reformed positions ample time in this invented debate, but he is clearly most comfortable in his own Roman Catholic Theology, and less able to argue Reformed sacramental theology.
For example, Kreeft, through Tolkien, offers a defense of the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist in chapter eleven of the book by citing John chapter six, the feeding of the five-thousand and the discourse by Jesus that follows. Tolkien contends that the feeding of the five thousand is a symbol of the food believers receive through the Eucharist. The Roman Catholic view is clear, Tolkien argues, when Jesus says, “For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them” (John 6:55-56, NIV). The Graham character does not offer a response to this, though a reformed theologian might note that the symbolism in the feeding of the five thousand that Tolkien affirms, extends to the symbolism in the Lord’s Supper, a physical representation of Jesus’ sacrifice. However, Kreeft’s presentation of Roman Catholic sacramental theology is informative and is instructional to Christians of all faiths.
For example, Kreeft, through Tolkien, offers a defense of the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist in chapter eleven of the book by citing John chapter six, the feeding of the five-thousand and the discourse by Jesus that follows. Tolkien contends that the feeding of the five thousand is a symbol of the food believers receive through the Eucharist. The Roman Catholic view is clear, Tolkien argues, when Jesus says, “For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them” (John 6:55-56, NIV). The Graham character does not offer a response to this, though a reformed theologian might note that the symbolism in the feeding of the five thousand that Tolkien affirms, extends to the symbolism in the Lord’s Supper, a physical representation of Jesus’ sacrifice. However, Kreeft’s presentation of Roman Catholic sacramental theology is informative and is instructional to Christians of all faiths.
January 24, 2025
5/7
Mostly good, especially once I realized what the book is meant to be. I was expecting the three men to be having a tight "let's get to the bottom of this" session about the Eucharist. Instead, it's more of a rambling conversation that vaguely centers around the Eucharist. For a while, I was frustrated by their apparent inability to stay on track, and by the fact that I never felt like they quite ever got to the true crux of their disagreements (which I as the reader was able to discern pretty quickly). This book doesn't seem interested in a detailed theological dissection of the different views on the Eucharist (which may have been an unreasonable expectation on my part?) but rather in just letting these three giants of 20th century Christianity talk about stuff for a while. If you go in expecting the latter, then you'll have a good time with this book. In other words, it's about the journey, not the destination.
One other minor complaint I had with the book was that the voices of the characters didn't feel distinct, and a lot of the dialogue felt very unrealistic and on-the-nose. This sometimes threw me out of the book, but overall didn't detract much from the actual content, which I thought was good.
Mostly good, especially once I realized what the book is meant to be. I was expecting the three men to be having a tight "let's get to the bottom of this" session about the Eucharist. Instead, it's more of a rambling conversation that vaguely centers around the Eucharist. For a while, I was frustrated by their apparent inability to stay on track, and by the fact that I never felt like they quite ever got to the true crux of their disagreements (which I as the reader was able to discern pretty quickly). This book doesn't seem interested in a detailed theological dissection of the different views on the Eucharist (which may have been an unreasonable expectation on my part?) but rather in just letting these three giants of 20th century Christianity talk about stuff for a while. If you go in expecting the latter, then you'll have a good time with this book. In other words, it's about the journey, not the destination.
One other minor complaint I had with the book was that the voices of the characters didn't feel distinct, and a lot of the dialogue felt very unrealistic and on-the-nose. This sometimes threw me out of the book, but overall didn't detract much from the actual content, which I thought was good.
December 1, 2021
What a fun but also enlightening dialogue
This fictional conversation which could have happened, pooled from the writings, sermons, and lectures of these three remarkable Christians, is wonderful. Although nobody ends up changing the others views and the differences are serious differences, the contributions by each were so very edifying. Some of the best lines were at the end in the mouth of the Catholic Tolkien, especially regarding the salvation of non-Catholics like both Lewis and Graham. Every Christian, both Protestant and Catholic, needs to read this book, illuminating not only what divides us, but showing how despite those serious divisions, we can still exist in brotherly love with each other. This is how theological debates ought to be. Peter Kreeft does a great job balancing the three views in a spirit of both truth and love.
This fictional conversation which could have happened, pooled from the writings, sermons, and lectures of these three remarkable Christians, is wonderful. Although nobody ends up changing the others views and the differences are serious differences, the contributions by each were so very edifying. Some of the best lines were at the end in the mouth of the Catholic Tolkien, especially regarding the salvation of non-Catholics like both Lewis and Graham. Every Christian, both Protestant and Catholic, needs to read this book, illuminating not only what divides us, but showing how despite those serious divisions, we can still exist in brotherly love with each other. This is how theological debates ought to be. Peter Kreeft does a great job balancing the three views in a spirit of both truth and love.
June 9, 2024
A very creative take on an important topic from three fascinating minds. Kreeft seeks not so much to crown a winner but to invite the reader to a charitable take on the Eucharist. It has a pastoral rather than philosophical aim.
I would give it 3.5/5 as it would have benefitted had Tolkein and Lewis’ positions been a bit more differentiated. Further, there were some omissions that were head-scratchers such as no discussion of the “…do this in memory of me” portion of Jesus’ words at the Last Supper. Also - a bit of a rigid take on Tolkein arguing for a literal reading of “this is my body…” but Graham did not counter argue from other claims Jesus made such as “I am the door…” or “I am the vine…”
Overall - a good read.
I would give it 3.5/5 as it would have benefitted had Tolkein and Lewis’ positions been a bit more differentiated. Further, there were some omissions that were head-scratchers such as no discussion of the “…do this in memory of me” portion of Jesus’ words at the Last Supper. Also - a bit of a rigid take on Tolkein arguing for a literal reading of “this is my body…” but Graham did not counter argue from other claims Jesus made such as “I am the door…” or “I am the vine…”
Overall - a good read.
November 28, 2025
I really enjoyed this book! My main quibble is how Kreeft wrote Billy Graham. I think a more robust Protestant view could’ve been represented, rather than Graham’s feelings-based, lovey-dovey responses.
I hadn’t read anything that presented a Catholic view of the Eucharist before, so this was a pleasure. My main disagreement with the book isn’t even transubstantiation, it is, like Kreeft’s Lewis says, a disagreement with the Roman Catholic Church as the infallible arbiter of truth. 1,900 years of teaching that the Jews are rejected and cursed by God prevents me from seeing the RCC as such.
In any case, I definitely enjoyed this book and will probably read more Kreeft at some point.
I hadn’t read anything that presented a Catholic view of the Eucharist before, so this was a pleasure. My main disagreement with the book isn’t even transubstantiation, it is, like Kreeft’s Lewis says, a disagreement with the Roman Catholic Church as the infallible arbiter of truth. 1,900 years of teaching that the Jews are rejected and cursed by God prevents me from seeing the RCC as such.
In any case, I definitely enjoyed this book and will probably read more Kreeft at some point.
December 7, 2019
A wonderful, inspiring, educational and fun read! I love several of the characters Peter Kreeft writes about in this book and love how he formulated a meeting of 3 great (but different) spiritual minds to discuss the topic of the reality of the Eucharist. So many beautiful teachings and quotes are explored in this "conversation" among friends. Reading it truly felt like being a fly on the wall of a great evening of conversation between faithful Christians each trying to live his life according to God's will.
September 8, 2024
Kreeft is such a creative thinker, I always leave his dialogue books feeling like I have sat at coffee with great thinkers and had profound conversations. While I don’t feel convicted to convert, he definitely has shed light into corners of the Catholic faith with this book & others that have led me to appreciate & love that part of the Kingdom, and understand Catholic friends much more deeply. Knowing that we are actually fighting the same fight against the same enemy is a huge comfort & very motivating.
May 2, 2025
A great discussion on the various theological viewpoints surrounding the Eucharist - however I wasn’t the biggest fan of the format. A discussion between these three incredible minds is a brilliant framework, it simply wasn’t a reading format that captured me. A difference of personal preference solely.
A specific moment that clarified a tricky subject for me: Tolkien’s distinction between what magic is and what is magical!
A specific moment that clarified a tricky subject for me: Tolkien’s distinction between what magic is and what is magical!
October 25, 2021
The book was easy to read and I truly felt like I was listening to these 3 icons discuss the Eucharist. I do not agree with the end conclusions, but felt the author was fair in trying to represent the different perspectives. As a reformed evangelical I think there is value in reading the book to better understand the Catholic and Anglican perspectives.
December 8, 2022
Not the best book I’ve read by Kreeft, but I do appreciate his ADD (as he so often alludes to) and his creativity. There were many good arguments within, and I do hope we may soon live in a world that knows how to argue well again. Many good references within, as well. Kreeft always provides me with my next book because of his footnotes ☺️
August 6, 2023
This is my first read by Peter Kreeft. One word. Brilliant! The imaginary dialogue between Graham and Lewis (Tolkien has been in the background for the most part thus far) has been such a treat. I’m especially impressed by the gracious tone between them as they engage in such a debate. Kreeft does a wonderful job at presenting the differing views on the Eucharist among Anglicans, Roman Catholics, and Protestants, while also pointing out the important ways in which the churches are united. A highly enjoyable and enlightening read for every tradition.
June 3, 2024
Interesting dialogue between Lewis (Anglican), Tolkien (Catholic), and Graham (evangelical). Catholics and Anglicans believe in the substance of the Eucharist and baptism, while evangelicals believe these are only symbols of Christ. I highlighted a few stories in the book that I thought were illustrative of the points being made.
April 3, 2020
Very thought-provoking, a must-read
Excellent presentation of Protestant and Catholic views of the Eucharist. An indispensable resource for ecumenical dialogue at the grass roots level.
Excellent presentation of Protestant and Catholic views of the Eucharist. An indispensable resource for ecumenical dialogue at the grass roots level.
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April 26, 2020I could listen to Tolkien talk about the Eucharist all the live long day...even if it's really Kreeft's words! This was fascinating. It will take another read through or two before I can absorb it all, I think.
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May 8, 2024What an interesting read. Took me awhile because I had to be in the right mindset to read this! This is a book I will keep on my nightstand and read a few pages many times throughout my life. I learned a lot myself even as a “fairly curious” Catholic, gave me some new avenues to study!
Displaying 1 - 30 of 40 reviews