In Talking to Women, Nell Dunn puts her finger on one of the most important, but least-intelligently aired, social problems of the post-war era: the position of women in society. Somebody once pointed out that the emancipation of women would have taken place after they got the vote, but for women's magazines: women today expect more from life than childbearing and housekeeping, though on the other hand they cannot fulfill themselves entirely by writing novels, painting pictures or pursuing careers as men do.
Many women find it difficult to meet the dual roles adequately and it is on this topic, and others, such as sexual fulfillment in and outside marriage, morality, and more or less intimate subjects, that the nine women included in this book talk to Nell Dunn. Some, like Edna O'Brien and Ann Quin, are writers, others are painters or actresses. One is a working mother, and another, Frances Chadwicke, is dead.
The book is not a heavy sociological treatise; these women talk the language of the sixties and their speech rhythms are faithfully recorded. In conveying the looseness, the paucity almost, of the spoken word today, the contributors reveal contemporary life more fully because they are speaking in the intimate, informal manner that Nell Dunn has encouraged.
Nell Mary Dunn (born 9 June 1936) is an English playwright, screenwriter and author. She is known especially for a volume of short stories, Up the Junction, and a novel, Poor Cow.
Ali Smith introduces nine, one-to-one conversations from the early to mid 1960s, between writer Nell Dunn and a select group of women friends who answer questions about aspects of their lives as women - including novelist Edna O’Brien, artist Pauline Boty and experimental writer Ann Berg. The women featured either work in the arts or are deeply embedded in a flourishing creative counterculture, the odd woman out’s Kathy Collier a working-class, factory worker from South London – someone Dunn apparently met after she ditched her privileged background to live and work in similar circumstances. I don’t think Dunn’s collection can be seen as even vaguely representative of women’s experiences at the time, her group’s far too exclusive not to mention lacking in diversity. But even if it’s a rather rarefied snapshot of women’s lives in the sixties I still thought it retained an element of cultural significance, an intriguing example of oral history well before it was fashionable.
However, I did find Dunn’s method of presentation a bit off-putting, she’s essentially serving up transcripts here, complete with fillers and hesitation markers. I suppose that’s intended to highlight authenticity and spontaneity, but it had the opposite impact on me as a reader, it slowed everything down and added to the number of passages that seemed unnecessarily, disappointingly dry. It also meant a huge variation in style between participants, so chapters centred on writers like O’Brien were almost inevitably more fluid and compelling than many others – although some of her ideas were surprisingly offensive and bordering on bizarre. What did stand out was how revealing the women’s comments were about contemporary social attitudes. I had a feeling of eavesdropping on a cross-section of a society in flux, perhaps even in crisis: growing social inequality, a massive shortage of affordable housing, unease around the breakdown of traditional class divisions, and lurking in the background a very real fear of nuclear war. It’s a time seen from these women’s perspective that’s deeply conservative in some senses but increasingly liberal in others: although kneejerk homophobia seems rife, there’s clearly a move towards acceptance of whatever kind of relationship people around them engage in; there’s a depressing emphasis on men, and marriage seems to dominate a lot of these women’s thoughts, yet at the same time it’s not seen as automatically likely or even desirable. I could make out the seeds of ways of thinking that just a few years later produced the women’s liberation movement and major changes like the legalisation of abortion and the partial legalisation of same-sex acts between men, at least in England and Wales. It also became increasingly clear how unhappy many of Dunn’s circle were, grappling with how to carve out a space for themselves in an overwhelmingly male-dominated world, so many of them dogged by underlying problems and anxieties: depression; the relentless demands of parenting; conflict between the fantasy of romance between men and women and the harsher realities; financial insecurity. It all seemed a far cry from the popular image of the fun-loving, swinging sixties.
Great insight into the 1960s, but pure frustration reading of the societal restrictions of the time... much of which some of the women - even as they were arguing for progressiveness - didn't seem fully aware of. Makes you wonder how generations in another 50 years might look back on our decade more knowingly.
I loved this but I haven’t given it 5 stars as I only really loved it because it provided perspectives from the 60s. I didn’t find it particularly clever, it felt more historically insightful. But I don’t think it intended to be clever. I did love some of the questions she asked and some responses she received though. I’d like to start my own project and do the same thing for 2024/5 to look back on when I’m old or for others to look back on when I’m gone.
I felt sad reading about some of their lives afterward.
I wish Nell Dunn published such a book every decade. Or that there would be more such female voices in other places in the world so that we could reflect not only on the passage of time but different geographies as well. Overall I found these conversations so fascinating. It’s interesting to see how the context, traditions and background of women’s lives changed so much from the 60s till now. After reading some of the opinions in this book I’m much less likely to say that the last two waves of feminism came to nothing 🤷🏻♀️ it’s amazing how small shifts in perception can make such a big difference sometimes.
What I needed to read in this precise moment in life. There’s a special sort of comfort that comes from reading your own thoughts and experiences on paper by someone born decades before you…
I can’t believe Nell Dunn had these conversations back in the 60s! we really havent changed much as a society because things they talked about; sexuality, love, abortion, and freedom, are still things we need to talk about. this book really taught me, a cis-man, to sit down and listen to women.
Loved the concept of this book and found it interesting to read the views of women in the 60s. However, I thought the people interviewed were all very similar though I guess that comes with the time. Overall, this was an interesting book which made me glad I wasn’t around in the 1960s.
This is an extremely interesting book that I found fascinating, but wished I had loved more. Nell Dunn spends a series of evenings chatting with friends over wine, the resulting transcripts recorded within the pages. The themes are similar in each conversation - love, lust, self-worth, motherhood, dreams for the future, artistic expression - but the unstructured approach allows for natural flow and Dunn’s role as active participant tricks you into feeling like a fly on the wall.
The results were honest, insightful and sad in equal measure. Time and again, I was struck by the societal restrictions of the time (the conversations took place in the early 60s) and the perceptions of themselves that the majority of the women shared, especially in terms of their relationships with men and perceptions of their own self worth. Loss of identity and expression was another common topic, alongside fear of ageing and body image. Reading each chapter, it was simultaneously both encouraging to know that, as women today, it is now increasingly recognised that we are formed of a multitude of identities, but also saddening that almost 60 years since the publication of this book, many women still experience the same worries and confusion.
I am not a huge fan of reading transcripts; tone, inflection and body language are so vital to conversation that the words alone can seem cold and unfulfilling. The short excerpts were also too brief for me - I did not feel a connection with the women in the way I would have liked. Nevertheless, this was an interesting snapshot of time and I am pleased I picked it up.
Fascinating. Not least for the fact that these conversations took place a couple of years before I married between women around a decade older than I. The women, however, came from a much bolder, looser strata, personality-wise as well as socially, and their almost mutually-held beliefs about men and fidelity and what they wanted were far in advance of mine at the time. Many of the questions Nell Dunn asks of each of the women are identical - she is intent on firming up her own beliefs, to some extent, I think - give this a cohesion that underlines the prevalent thinking at the time.
And very slowly re-read, having done a bit of catching up with the fiction of that time.
...this kind of communication with people up to now has only been possible through writing and has only been possible through the very imaginative and the very fearless, because I think most people are ashamed of saying what’s close to them. Most people would be ashamed to reveal that…__Edna O’Brien
This idea of shame not being spoken of, of its often debilitating hold on us in its silence, even in our fantasies or our imagination, is something that is worth considering. When publicly being open with our shame and secrets, it does seem to disarm the weaponry used against us by ourselves or others. Obviously confession works on many levels or Catholics wouldn’t apply it. Edna O’Brien had the courage to speak openly even to strangers about some of the most intimate details of life. Her idea that revealing them through writing came first and that now it should be possible to open them up publicly for review. Of course, some of us are not worthy of receiving these messages, these confessions, as our lack of understanding or bigotry almost always gets in the way.
...one needs to try and draw some sort of essence, make some sense of it all...___Nell Dunn
A rather interesting book, with interesting and intelligent women, all brought to my attention by my favorite contemporary writer Claire-Louise Bennett. It was a fascinating read regarding what these women of the British sixties thought about their conventional marriages, other romantic relationships, and how their lives mingled within their writing or art careers. Of course, it was much more than that even, these nuances of life, the foibles, challenges, and what it was like to be a woman during this most important time.
This book was just phenomenal! It was first published in 1965 and then republished in 2018. In 1964, Nell interviewed 9 women on different topics: (the making of) art, friendship, love, motherhood, abortion, sex, good/bad, etc. These conversations were very interesting to read and illuminating in a sense that it felt like travelling back in time with modern bursts in between. Beware, there are multiple homophobic parts in these conversations and some racism (incl. use of the n-word).
The women that were interviewed are: 1. Pauline Boty 2. Kathy Collier 3. Frances Chadwick 4. Edna O'Brien 5. Emma Charlton 6. Antonia Simon 7. Suna Portman 8. Paddy Kitchen 9. Ann Quin
”Minä tunsin syyllisyyttä sen vuoksi että minulla oli ruma vittu.” (Pauline Boty Nell Dunnin teoksessa Naiset puhuvat)
Miten on mahdollista, että törmäsin tähän feministiseen helmeen vasta muutama viikko sitten?
Talking to Women (1965) julkaistiin suomeksi vuonna 1970 nimellä Naiset puhuvat (suom. Maija-Hellikki Aaltio, Otava). Olen lukenut ja selannut lukemattomia naisten kirjoittamaa kirjallisuutta käsitteleviä teoksia, mutta niin vain tämä teos ei koskaan ole tullut vastaan tai olen jotenkin mystisesti onnistunut ohittamaan sen merkille panematta. Nell Dunn (s. 1936) on englantilainen kirjailija, jonka tunnetuimpia teoksia ovat novellikokoelma Up the Junction (1963) sekä romaani Poor Cow (1967). Outoa on myös, että Nell Dunnia käsittelevällä wikipediasivulla Talking to Women teosta ei mainita hänen kirjoittamiensa teosten luettelossa.
Naiset puhuvat muodostuu Dunnin kysymyksistä yhdeksälle naiselle, joista itselleni entuudestaan tuttuja olivat Pauline Boty, Edna O’Brien sekä Ann Quinn. Lisäksi Dunn tuo esiin myös omia näkemyksiään, joten Naiset puhuvat sijoittuu haastattelun ja keskustelun välimaastoon. Naiset ovat kirjassa äärettömän rehellisiä hyvin henkilökohtaisistakin asioista ja tämä korostuu vielä, kun otetaan huomioon, että kirja on tosiaan julkaistu jo vuonna 1965 eli vain 2 vuotta esimerkiksi Betty Friedanin ikonisen Feminine Mystique -teoksen jälkeen. Puheenaiheita ovat mm. avioliitto, äitiys, seksi, abortti, pettäminen ja ylipäänsä naisten ja miesten väliset suhteet ja niihin liittyvä vallankäyttö. Kirjassa toistuu useamman naisen näkemys siitä, että avioliitto ja naisen itsensä toteuttaminen ovat sovittamattomassa ristiriidassa keskenään. Naimisiinmenon syyksi osoittautuu useimmin joko yhteiskunnan tai omien vanhempien osalta tuleva paine.
Syyllisyyttä naisille aiheuttaa niin oma kirjoittaminen, itsensä huonoksi äidiksi kokeminen kuin seksi ja seksuaalisuuskin.
Vahvimmat kannanotot kirjassa löytyvät Pauline Botylta ja Ann Quinnilta. Lyhyesti: 🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥
Interesting book I haven’t read anything like it. Is a book of transcribed conversations Nell Dunn has with different women. It’s from the sixties and is interesting to see how far we have come. You think the sixties was a time of freedom for women, but actually they were still very depends on men. They talk about their sexual freedom, but underneath is this fear of being pregnant and alone. They talk about their fear of getting old (aka 30-40) and losing their looks, as if that is the most important thing to them. Their relationships with men were all very combative with each trying to get one up on the other, rather than being equal partners. They were framed more as battles for supremacy. I think it’s an important book because it’s a snapshot of our society at that time and it’s only by looking back that we can see how much we have achieved
This was really interesting as an insight into the psychology of women in the sixties. I did lots of reflecting on the thoughts spoken about by Nell, and discussed them a lot with various people. My main takeaway however was that most of the women seemed pretty cynical about life and love, and I often found myself disagreeing with the sentiments expressed. Nell clearly had several key questions on her mind..."do you think life is particularly tragic?" "Is it reasonable to expect a woman to stay with the same man her whole life"... so although the book is made up of interviews with other women, I felt I learned more about Nell and her inner thoughts. An interesting read, but quite long.
Nearly 60 years on, and these conversations are still so striking. For their frankness, their boldness, the way they push social boundaries (conversations about sex, love, and abortions leap out - particularly the latter). But that frankness does betray its era: the discussions about (homo)sexuality are almost hilariously oblivious, and many of the women are uncomfortably umaware of class when they talk of it. And they're difficult conversations to read - not a bad thing necessarily, but difficult nonetheless.
There’s an understated immediacy and candour to these interviews, and the time-capsule quality of the project is appealing and at times moving, but would have been even more interesting if it included voices beyond those of Dunn’s more-or-less bohemian circle - the similarity of the concerns and outlook of the subjects interviewed means that, to my mind at least, they start after a while to blur into one.
I’ve talked only about this book for the last 4 days. It inspired me to recreate its premise 60 years later. I love the attention given to one’s friends voices, for no other reason than that they are your friends, they are the women in your life who happen to be going through the same life. It isn’t their credentials or their status or a particular thing that makes Nell’s women worthy of being interviewed. It’s fantastic to treat the people around you like that, with curiosity and openness and also to have the opportunity to ask any questions you like and really probe and make them think, too. I discovered at least one new thing about each person I interviewed. I can’t say it was always an entirely smooth read, perhaps I faced the same roadbumps that I find with short story collections - one gets immersed in someone’s voice and is suddenly buffeted on to the next. But it was fantastic to be immersed in the perspectives of these young British women in the 60s, I can think of no better way of getting at history, of getting into people’s subjectivity.
It's wonderful to have a look at a complete conversation over wine between two women friends. I appreciate the honesty and the fact that during one conversation one woman can totally contradict herself. It's quite dated, these women were born in the 1930s but these women were quite daring for their time, single mums, talking about sex, wondering about monogamy...would love to read a version for our generation - do you think in this day and age anyone who was a little bit known already in the media would dare to talk openly and honestly in the knowledge that their friend might publish it?
got quite boring after the first few interviews since she asked the same questions each time and they all had similar answers. it would’ve been much more interesting if she got ppl from different walks of life. and idk if she standardised the answers herself but how is it possible they all talked the exact same even though they were different ages i couldn’t even tell the difference between them as i was reading since there was absolutely no personality shining through. crazy that they all justified infidelity tho it was giving brainwashed
This is a quietly impactful collection of Dunn's 1964 conversations with friends—amongst them a Pop artist, a factory worker, the writer Ann Quin—about work, sex, love and life. A real snapshot of 60s culture and a warm, fascinating read. Some of their views are so conservative (to modern eyes) but you can see the impact on the 60s starting to affect their ways of thinking—as well as their particular circumstances with regards to class, sexuality, wealth etc.
A really interesting book. It takes a little while to get used to the conversational style (the conversation is printed exactly as spoken I guess, including filler words and thoughts trailing off mid-sentence) but it's amazing how open and frank they all are. Some of the opinions might not have aged well (as far as I can tell it's mostly white, middle class, straight women) but it does make a good snapshot of the time and that society.
Nell Dunn and these conversations are a revelation! simple yet thought-provoking, vulnerable and sincere, pure but also wise. what a treat it is to have the opportunity to share your personal day-to-day and bigger-than-yourself kinds of experiences, be listened to and be heard. and so is reading about them.
i read this for the interview with ann quin, which is excellent, but every chapter has at least one incredible glimpse into the lives of dunn's friends - really worth the read if you're even slightly curious about what it might have actually been like, day-to-day, as a woman in 1964
i love the concept of this but it slightly bored me in parts and just took me forever to read. it's probably one i'll revisit in the future and i'd definitely recommend but maybe because i'm male this didn't have the same impact for me, but i'm glad i read it.