24 Hours in Ancient China: A Day in the Life of the People Who Lived There

24 Hours in Ancient History #4

by Yijie Zhuang

Travel back to AD 17, during the fourth year of the reign of Wang Mang of the Han dynasty, a vibrant and innovative era full of conflicts and contradictions. But as different as the Han culture might have been to other great ancient civilizations, the inhabitants of ancient China faced the same problems as people have for time immemorial: earning enough money, coping with workplace dramas and keeping your home in order . . . although the equivalent in this era was more about bribing inspectors, avoiding bullying from abusive watchmen and trying to keep your house from being looted by Huns. In each chapter we meet one of 24 citizens of this ancient culture, from the midwife to the soldier, the priest to the performer and the blacksmith to the tomb looter, and see what an average day in ancient China was really like.

Genres: History, Nonfiction, China, Ancient History, Historical, Audiobook, Asia

272 pages, Hardcover

First published June 25, 2020

Reviews

[Chrissie · Rating 4 out of 5]

The time setting is AD 17, the fourth year of the reign of Wang Mang of the Han dynasty. Starting at midnight, moving forward one hour at a time, each hour is spent with a different person. In this way we see the lives of twenty-four individuals and through them what life was like during the Han dynasty.

We are an hour with a doctor, a midwife, a scribe, a teacher, a farmer and an assortment of different craftsmen. We are there beside a soldier dying of the plague. We are given glimpses of bandits looting a tomb, of a worker harvesting salt from brine, of a convict laborer, a dancer and of a princess’ maid in waiting. We learn of Chinese traditions, superstitions and mystical beliefs. We meet up with people of different classes and holding different occupations. Snippets of historical background information are inserted.

The twenty four individuals live in different places in the then existing Chinese empire. Each one’s location is mentioned but with not enough information for me to place them on a map. I wish references to modern day cities had been given.

It is fascinating to lean of the art, history and technological advances that had been made so long ago in Han China! I also like that it is explained how they know what they know, i.e. the source of the information provided.

This book isn’t deep and it isn’t long, but it gives an assortment of interesting bits of information.

John Telfer narrates the audiobook very well. He speaks clearly and at a good speed. I have no idea if he pronounces the Chinese words correctly, and there are many. The narration I have given four stars.

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*24 Hours in Ancient Rome: A Day in the Life of the People Who Lived There by Philip Matyszak 4 stars
*24 Hours in Ancient China: A Day in the Life of the People Who Lived There by Yijie Zhuang 4 stars
*24 Hours in Ancient Athens: A Day in the Life of the People Who Lived There by Philip Matyszak3 stars
*24 Hours in Ancient Egypt: A Day in the Life of the People Who Lived There by Donald P. Ryan TBR

[Sara✨ · Rating 5 out of 5]

Pre dve ili možda 3 godine (Sara i pojam o vremenu ne treba da stoje u istoj rečenici) pročitala sam "24 ata u antičkom Rimu" i jako mi se dopala, ova mi se jednako dopala. Divna stvar u vezi koncepta ove knjige je što može da vam se svidi i ako niste pasionirani ljubitelj istorije ppoput mene. Jer ovo je priča o ljudima. O životu u vremenu pre našeg vremena. Kroz 24 različiita sata provodimo vreme sa 24 različita slučaja. Od dama na dvoru, preko babica, lopova, lekara do pleasačica kroz ovu knjigu uoznajemo Kinu iz davnina. Autor se uprkos tome što održava događaje kao fikciju postarao da nam u svakom poglavlju donese jedan istorijski paragraf o tome kako je to zapravo izgledalo što dodatno doprinosi ovoj knjizi. Lako se čita a neverovatno je zabavna imate sve moje preporuke da je pročitate.
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ENGL:
Overall easy read but also extremely fun too. Every chapter is interesting but educative at the same time which as a history lover I loved very much. It's a great book.

[Michael Fuller · Rating 2 out of 5]

Did no one have any fun back then? Not a single spark of life or joy in this book.

[Swords & Spectres · Rating 3 out of 5]

This was a book I was really keen to start due to my not knowing a great deal about ancient China and absolutely loving to learn about new aspects of ancient history. It was enjoyable, but felt like somewhat of a chore throughout.

Compared to the previous book in the series (24 Hours in Ancient Athens) it is an improvement on the fact that it focuses on average people, which is the selling point, rather than famous people from the era (which Athens swore it wouldn't do then did anyway, because who needs to stick to their word when selling a product?)

My main issue with this is that, for a two-hundred and thirty-two paged book (page number listed on Amazon kindle), it felt VERY long. That should not be a thing. a book that is not even at the two-fifty mark should never feel long, but this one did. The chapters felt as though they had been padded out to add to the page count and it often felt like the people in the chapters were frequently explaining the same thing in two or three different ways or rambling about something not entirely connected. If a chapter was fifteen pages long, it probably never needed to be. 

I also felt that some of the characters were expanding upon certain bits of knowledge that, given their station in life, they might not have had a working knowledge of, but that's forgivable as without them we may not have been treated to a good overview of the certain topics being discussed.

Buried beneath the padding is some very interesting information as far as the daily life of citizens in ancient China goes and I thoroughly enjoyed the meat of it. Whether its the innovation of farming techniques, how land was doled out, the methods of a stone mason or metal worker, it all hits that sweet spot as far as my interest is concerned. I just couldn't read it for long periods at a time as the author would seem to notice my enjoyment, then come along with the padding just to make sure I wasn't having too much fun. 'Ah, you enjoyed the explanation about how a fabric worker uses dyes? Excellent, I'll give you eight paragraphs on why that worker doesn't enjoy getting out of bed in the morning to impede that enjoyment'.

Yay.

So far, my overall opinion of this series is that it's very interesting, but seems to have some little speed bumps designed to annoy the reader. The ancient Roman book was perhaps my favourite as that didn't seem to suffer in the ways of the other books. I will certainly carry on buying any entry in this series as, the nuggets of historical gold are well worth sifting through the minor annoyances.

[Ellie · Rating 4 out of 5]

This was a fun read! Not overly academic but still informative. I can understand the complaints of other readers that this book is maybe not what they'd expected it to be, but to that I can only say: you can't expect to understand the lives of people who lived 2000 years ago without learning about the broad historical context and development of the time. Also, the common remark that "people who lived back then couldn't possibly know XYZ" is complete bull. Historical people knew things. A lot of our knowledge is really old. Claiming that they "couldn't have possibly" is just another version of the argument that the ancient Egyptians couldn't have built the pyramids so it must've been aliens.

[Marlene Reiser · Rating 3 out of 5]

Really loved the concept of this although it was a bit more pop sciency than I had hoped

[kristiana · Rating 4 out of 5]

Before this one I had only read the Ancient Athens one in the series and this one was definitely better. You really get a full immersion in the Ancient Chinese life. Not a groundbreaking stellar book, that's why 4 not 5 stars, but good for what it is.

[Alecat · Rating 4 out of 5]

I am surprised at how much I enjoyed this book. It gives one hour snapshots of the lives of people all over Ancient China (specifically during the reign of Emporer Wu) and covers all walks of life from court scribes to prisoners to farmers and more.

[Tao Zheng · Rating 4 out of 5]

This is a pretty interesting popular history book about Chinese civilization for the English-speaking audience. There are 24 chapters with unique stories, each focusing on a specific occupation in the empire's capital city, Chang An. We get a glimpse of daily life in Han dynasty China (206 BC - 220 AD) and some informative snippets of Chinese history and archeological findings.

As someone who knows Chinese, I think the book would be even better if the author included the Chinese characters for all the Chinese names and proper nouns that were written in pinyin (although it wouldn't really matter for non-Chinese readers).

[Smitchy · Rating 3 out of 5]

24 short stories based on the fictionalised lives of people in ancient China. The single hour is a glimpse into potential lives based on historical documents and archeological evidence. The short stories bring to life the hopes, fears, worries, work, and family, of ordinary men and women living their lives.
A midwife assists at the birth of her long awaited grandchild - showing us the rituals of birth and fertility, A doctor hurries to a patient in the middle of the night - teaching us about herbalism and and the principles of Confucian medicine.
A scribe ponders the path that led him to the intrigues of court life and wonders if the truth is worth dying for, as political intrigue has end the life of a friend and co-worker.
A Farmer thinks about the new way to plow a field to increase yield and worries about how he can afford a team and a new steel plow.
A tomb robber guides his younger associates in breaking into a tomb and considers the great risks that come with the potential of great rewards.
A maid prepares for her mistress' return from a banquet and ensures all in in readiness - and we learn about hygiene practices and the privileges of rank.

Some stories are less pleasant than others but all keeping with the idea of giving an overview of what the average life might expect to encounter.
Each hour of the day brings a new story and the overriding sense of heavy work, responsibility and worry about potential consequences is prevalent. Every character is fleshed out and some I would have loved to hear more from. Often the story is finished with the factual historical evidence that backs up the facts of the story. Well worth a read (or listen). I will be looking up the others in the series.

[Cassandra Marie Darling · Rating 2 out of 5]

I read 50% in full and skim read the other 50% in particular kept focus on the history boxes which cropped up as they were the most interesting. I was excited to read this book, I thought that the style it was written would be really good, keep your attention with a story but interlink the history within the story to keep it factual. I was disappointed, the stories were far too long and no nearly enriched with enough factual history, I have learnt the bare minimum of a history which I thought I might have come away with more. The stories in themselves were very dull as well, if your going to Jazz up history go all out or not at all! I learnt as much as you would on a museum tour with school, they made bronze mirrors, they farmed, they had court. I just think I was expecting more, a great idea but not executed well. I think if I want to learn about Chinese history I will go for something a little more academic.

[Brian · Rating 4 out of 5]

This book makes the history of early CE China approachable. Many provinces are boiled down to the daily experiences of people going about their day. This does not do a disservice to the country as a whole, but instead celebrates the bravery, hard work, and spirit of a people North American readers rarely consider. This is not the Communist China we all know. These are also not the rich and powerful who are so often the focus of history. These are people amazingly similar to us. An interesting read.

[Daniel Kukwa · Rating 3 out of 5]

This entry in the "24 Hours" series didn't grip me as much as the Roman & Egyptian editions. The stories feel a bit more soap opera-ish & drawn out, while the previous entries gave a stronger sense of the uniqueness of their times. This felt like it could have been set within the last 100 years -- the history exists as a sideline to the storytelling.

[Nick · Rating 2 out of 5]

Het is oprecht jammer maar in vergelijking met 24 uur in oud Egypte, lijkt 24 uur in het oude China niet ten volle te gaan voor het thema. Ja de structuur is hetzelfde, zijnde elk uur een ander persoon van andere achtergrond die ons een blik geeft op zijn dag en leven; maar ik merkte dat Yijie Zhuang twee andere motieven in zijn hoofd had bij het schrijven.

Het eerste dat mij opviel, is dat de hoofdstukjes of getuigenissen weliswaar vertrekken van de fictie van dagdagelijkse leven van een anoniem persoon uit deze tijd, maar terzelfdertijd vermengt Zhuang dit dagdagelijkse met nogal onwennig ingepropte stukken over wijdere context en historische evolutie. dit voelt vreemd aan omdat je dus probeert in te leven bij de persoon van het hoofdstuk, een vroedvrouw, een steenhouwer, een boer maar dat die zelfde persoon dan denkt aan of commentaar levert op historische ontwikkelingen op zijn of haar vakgebied? Het voelt narratief gewijs niet goed aan maar ook kan je de vraag stellen of zo een vroedvrouw of steenkapper of priester überhaupt dat historisch inzicht en feiten had. Dit dan nog eens aangevuld met de staple van de reeks, de korte kaders met technische uitleg en verdieping; verschil is wel, in 24 uur in oude egypte waren die gereserveerd voor stukken die niet pasten in de narratieve flow terwijl hier we dus uitleg krijgen zowel in het narratieve deel als het tekstblok aspect van het format.

Een tweede vraag die in mij opkwam; dit voelt enorm aan als de periode na de dood van mao en de overgang naar "zolang de kat maar muizen vangt maakt haar kleur niet uit" beleid van Deng xiaoping. Er is in veel hoofdstukken constante spanning tussen staatsmonopolie en privaat ondernemerschap waar de voordelen van de één naast de consequenties van het andere gelegd worden. Minder bureaucratisch gedoe, maar wel meer zekerheid voor arbeiders, meer creatieve vrijheid, strictere standaarden, misbruik en machtsconcurrentie door privé noopt tot overheidsingreep maar ook daar doet geld honger misbruik leven. De goede ambtenaar is de rechtschapen corruptie bestrijder en de beste bureaucraat is hij die die strengheid als gedegen man ondergaat. Nu het kan goed zijn en ik geloof best dat de latere han periode, wanneer dit zich afspeelt, die spanning had waar monopolies op paarden, zout, school, metaalbewerking overging naar ruimte voor privaat ondernemersschap, maar door zo sterk de nadruk daarop te leggen merk ik vooral een poging voor nog steeds bestaande spanningen in de contemporeine maatschappij van China waar de herinnering aan de ijzeren rijstkom (zoals staatscontrole van Mao lyrisch werd genoemd) nog steeds leeft bij een deel van de bevolking te kaderen in een langer historisch narratief.

Beide punten die ik aanhaalde maken dat ik denk dat de structuur van 24 uur niet geschikt was voor hetgeen Zhuanh wou vertellen en dit ten koste van zowel het format als zijn suggestie en opzet.

[Steven Kelly · Rating 3 out of 5]

A good book, a fine addition to the series but I'm left wondering if my unfamiliarity with the subject matter means it just didn't land as well as I found the Rome, Greek and Egyptian one.

It's the same format and is interesting as a starter for 10 butat times it felt like the stories were a bit dry. The whole premise of the book is to spend an hour with so and so, who does a particular job in the area. We find out more about them and both what they do and how and then at the end there'll be a wee blurb with a high level view by the author. In this book it seemed to go very hot and cold. So you'd get one hour that's interesting, then another that's dry. For every interesting hour with say a midwife, there's one about a farmer who's talking about corruption from officials. And that's fine... but we've already established there's a ton of corruption at play in this time period so to hear it mentioned again is kind of tiring. Perhaps it's the way it's written but my goodness the insinuation I got from this book is there's almost too much corruption at the time, I'm surprised they were able to get anything done.

I feel the book isn't here to teach you things, but more to wet your appetite should you wish to go deeper. All in all I found it much more dry and slow going than the others in the series. Where the Rome book I could pick up and skim at my leisure, I feel this is a book I won't be coming back to

[Alice Stellar · Rating 3 out of 5]

I appreciate and respect the work and research that went into this installment in the “24 Hours in…” series. But unfortunately, unlike the Ancient Rome book, this one offers little or no connection with any of the people it portrays (or at least, that was the case for the first 40% or so -- I DNF'd after that).

It also gets extremely technical about industrial and agricultural processes, to the point that it was often hard to visualize what the author was describing. I kept thinking what a waste it was that the book does have the occasional illustration, but none of these that I came across really illustrated any of these processes in a significant or helpful way. Diagrams or sketches would have been so much better.

All this said, I do think this book would be an amazing resource for anyone researching the Han dynasty or the development of one of the industries/processes described in the book.

[Catriona · Rating 4 out of 5]

I'm enjoying this series as it gives a little but also varied perspective into different Ancient Cultures. So far I've read 24 hrs in Ancient Egypt and Ancient China. I'll definitely read the others.
I didn't really know anything about Ancient China before reading this, so it was certainly insightful and the approach makes it simple enough understand the surrounding issues for each character.
My only criticism- when comparing it to Ancient Egypt- is that the chapters felt quite scattered... Ancient Egypt, whilst covering 24 different roles, showed how people's lives interconnected within a region. Ancient China was scattered across the country and I missed the flow of a background story unfolding.
Otherwise very worthwhile reading, particularly if you want a starting point before delving into the history fully.

[Johnny · Rating 2 out of 5]

The Han Dynasty was a fascinating and rapidly changing time in Chinese history filled with political and social shifts, conflict, and technological innovation, and this book gives a great look at how these broader changes affected ordinary people living ordinary lives. Interesting stuff. Unfortunately, in AD17 everyday life was just as boring as today, and most people had to work even harder at some pretty menial tasks, meaning the book ends up, at a narrative level, having 24 really boring stories. Decide if that’s worth it for you.

[J C · Rating 5 out of 5]

Muito interessante para quem gosta de ler conteúdos históricos, mas não gosta de livros densos e meramente factuais.
O conjunto de personagens de diferentes estratos sociais escolhido retrata muito bem a diversidade de posições e profissões na sociedade Han. No final do livro é impossível não olharmos para esta civilização com uma visão mais próxima, reduzindo a distância dos dois mil anos que nos separam.

[Frans · Rating 5 out of 5]

Detailed and informative...

[katie eu · Rating 3 out of 5]

the best i can say is that it was fine. maybe i went in with different expectations but i found it slow and disjointed (albeit well researched) yet interesting.

[Krsto Knežević · Rating 3 out of 5]

Još jedan interesantan nastavak ovog serijala o antičkim civilizacijama u kome je predstavljena neobična, nama daleka, ali nevjerovatno fascinantna Kina. Neke priče su šokantne, neke samo simpatične, ali uspješno nam predstavljaju sliku kako je izgledao prosječan život njenih građana od pisara, ciglara do dvorjana i dvorskih dama.

[Laurence Westwood · Rating 3 out of 5]

Okay, from the start let me say that I am very conflicted about this book! In fact, when I was reading it, I felt that I was going completely deranged.

This book is the fourth in the series that has already covered Ancient Greece, Ancient Rome, and Ancient Egypt. I have not read the others so I cannot compare this book to them. This book is set in the year 17, during the Han Dynasty. There are 24 chapters, each corresponding to an hour of the day, in which we are introduced to a different character with a different profession, each chapter then being a short vignette by which we are shown a little slice of life during the Han Dynasty – and hopefully a lot of very interesting history.

I was initially very excited about this book as even though the Han Dynasty was as important in world history as Greece, Rome, or Egypt, so very little is written about it in the West in terms of popular history or novels. So this book is badly needed. However, even though the book is generally well-written, some of the vignettes come across as very contrived, as is to be expected. And though Dr Yijie Zhuang is as up to date with the latest research and makes clear the limitations of that research and has put a lot of work into the writing of the book, I found it all so very tiresome to read. This is not a criticism of the Dr Yijie Zhuang’s writing, which is okay, but the structure of the book itself.

Maybe, it works better as a teaching volume where the teacher asks the students to read a chapter at a time and then to discuss that chapter. But as an actual reading book, for me at least, it does not seem to work. It just gave me a headache. All I kept thinking when I read the book was, ‘Wouldn’t it be nice if the book was set in a small town, and all the characters know of each other, and there was an actually over-arching story to the narrative.’ I appreciate that this would be a great deal of work, and not in keeping with the other books in the series, but it would be nice and it would be far, far easier to read.

As an easy research book it works fine. If I want to know about the lives of canal workers or doctors during the Han all I have to do is pull the book off the shelf and consult the appropriate chapter. But then again, one has to wonder whether a straightforward popular history of the Han Dynasty aimed at teenagers and upwards would not be the preferred choice for a research book.

All this being said, I am still very glad I have the book. There is so little popular history of the Han Dynasty written anywhere else!

3.5 stars (mainly for the history)

[Ivan Jovanovic (Valahiru) · Rating 3 out of 5]

Nakon duže pauze, konačno završavam i ovaj fenomenalan serijal. Svaka od ovih knjiga zauzela je posebno mesto na mojim policama.
U ovom delu, upoznajemo se sa starom Kinom. Jiđije nas upoznaje sa njihovom kulturom, tradicijom i starim verovanjima. Pošto se u staroj Kini pridavala velika važnost smrti i zagrobnom životu, tri priče govore o tome.
Ne mogu reći da je ostavila isti utisak kao ostale iz serijala. Možda je u pitanju i moje slabije interesovanje za ovu staru civilizaciju. Jednostavno mi nije bilo isto kao sa prethodnim delovima. Dok su u prethodnim delovima priče likova povezane i nadovezuju se jedna na drugu, ovde to nije slučaj. Pored toga, dosta delova mi se činilo bespotrebno. Mislim da je autor ponavljao i opisivao neke delove dodatno, samo da bi dobio na broju stranica. Dosta takvih delova jednostavno nema nikakvu poentu, ali su ipak našli mesto u knjizi... Ostaje utisak da mi je Metizak najbolje približio stari svet u svojim knjigama.
Svakako, ova knjiga će dobro leći zaljubljenicima u istoriju, kao i vama koji želite da saznate nešto novo. Ceo serijal je pravi istorijski dragulj i vrlo drag deo moje kolekcije.
Da li vas zanima kako su se pravila bronzana ogledala, kako se ovaj narod ophodio prema konjima ili šta su jeli i kako su spremali hranu? Saznajte ko su bile carske supruge, kao i sa kojim problemima su se suočavali carski pisari. U ovoj knjizi leže odgovori na ta i još mnoga druga pitanja.

[Andrew Varga · Rating 3 out of 5]

I've seen the "24 Hours" books on store shelves before, and I always wanted to read one to see what sort of history they provided. So when I picked this one up, I was pretty excited. Unfortunately, the book was not something that would encourage me to pick up any more in the series. The book started by explaining that it would contain 24 short stories, each detailing one hour in the life of a hypothetical average person in the ancient Han empire. Although each story did provide great detail into the daily routine of that person's life, I found that the details weren't really that interesting. For instance, one story followed a river dredger who was cleaning mud from a canal. The story itself was great in explaining about the large transport network that existed during the Han empire and the level of administration needed to maintain it, but I felt that the time spent reading about hauling mud, and retrieving a lost shovel, wasn't worth the knowledge that I gained. And the author's attempts to provide backstory to each character did not endear me to the characters, it just made each story longer.

[Trish · Rating 4 out of 5]

This is another book in a series of snapshots of life in ancient cultures describing 24 people (one per hour) in the course of one day (albeit with backstories and historical evidence to support the narrative).
It is a good way to get an introduction to cultures far from us in time-and in the case of China little known in Western Europe, probably largely on account of the secrecy of China for much of written history and the vast geographical distance between us.

However, ordinary people in all ages have similar preoccupations - health, family, adequate nourishment and keeping safe from wars and tyranny.

The Huns are about! The same ethnic group who terrorised Rome and everyone else they could. And then there are the Persians. The same armies who gave the Roman Empire so much trouble.

[Fatima Sarder · Rating 3 out of 5]

A Day in the Life of People in Ancient China.

I love reading about Ancient civilizations, there was a point in high school where I devoured everything Ancient Egyptian and that curiosity is slowly trickling into ancient Asian History.

China has a glorious and often heavily romanticized past. These rosy veils are swept aside for a grounded reality where one hour snapshots of life are provided for the reader. Most of these micro stories are from the peasant population, but the historical background of the age and hints of the ostentatious opulence of the noble classes are clearly defined.

Reading the text was jarring at times, there seemed to be abrupt switches in tense and entire paragraphs of info dumping and repetitive sentences. Despite this, it was an interesting and quick read.

[Curry · Rating 5 out of 5]

From start to finish, I loved this book. It’s an incredible way of getting an insight on ordinary people of Han dynasty China, and I loved how every hour of the day corresponded to another profession. I haven’t read the other books in this series, but I loved that the author followed the old time Chinese system for each chapter, it was a nice detail for additional immersion.

In some chapters, like the first one with the doctor visiting a patient, I loved that there are pictures included of some historical artefacts mentioned and used that allowed for more visualisation.

Having the book start with the first hour about a doctor seeing one of his patients and end with a soldier lying on his infirmary bed (And implied to be dying) felt like it tied all of the chapters together in a nice circle.

I would recommend this book to anyone interested in World or Chinese history.

[DeAndre Theisen · Rating 4 out of 5]

Found this book to be quite enjoyable. With Chinese history spanning millennia you only focus on the period around the waring states. It gives you a nice look at the day to day lives of the people back then, while showcasing some humour along the way.

Now you never get the whole fleshed out story of characters and your often left at a clif hanger since you only have an hour with each one. Hour being chapter not actual reading hour. But I like the characters you meet.

My favorites were the 3 female family members milling wheat, and the one about a teenager from a silk farm family being woken up to do the chores. Relatable experiences that show if you take out tech and level of scientific knowledge were all still pretty much the relatable.

4 out 5!

[Jeff Brawner · Rating 3 out of 5]

The premise of this book is excellent. I really would like to know more about the ancient Chinese culture. The problem with this book is that many chapters are vague and uninteresting. my gut tells me that much of life 2000 years ago in China was not overly exciting anyway, so making an interesting read about it is somewhat hard to do. I just don’t care that greatly about textiles, subsistence farming, and other mundane aspects of their lives.
I’ll keep digging however. Any culture with over 1 billion people merits studying. Plus, the books in this series do remind me of the humanity of individuals 2000 years ago. Almost fall into the trap of viewing people in antiquity, almost as characters in a saga, rather than mothers, fathers, sons and daughters