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Joan, Lady of Wales: Power and Politics of King John's Daughter
This is the first book to ever be written on Joan, Lady of Wales, the first woman to be designated with such a title. Her role a political diplomat in early 13th century Anglo-Welsh relations was instrumental.
The history of women in medieval Wales before the English conquest of 1282 is one largely shrouded in mystery. For the Age of Princes, an era defined by ever-increased threats of foreign hegemony, internal dynastic strife and constant warfare, the comings and goings of women are little noted in sources. This misfortune touches even the most well-known royal woman of the time, Joan of England (d. 1237), the wife of Llywelyn the Great of Gwynedd, illegitimate daughter of King John and half-sister to Henry III. With evidence of her hand in thwarting a full scale English invasion of Wales to a notorious scandal that ended with the public execution of her supposed lover by her husband and her own imprisonment, Joan’s is a known, but little-told or understood story defined by family turmoil, divided loyalties and political intrigue.
From the time her hand was promised in marriage as the result of the first Welsh-English alliance in 1201 to the end of her life, Joan’s place in the political wranglings between England and the Welsh kingdom of Gwynedd was a fundamental one. As the first woman to be designated Lady of Wales, her role as one a political diplomat in early thirteenth-century Anglo-Welsh relations was instrumental. This first-ever account of Siwan, as she was known to the Welsh, interweaves the details of her life and relationships with a gendered reassessment of Anglo-Welsh politics by highlighting her involvement in affairs, discussing events in which she may well have been involved but have gone unrecorded and her overall deployment of royal female agency.
The history of women in medieval Wales before the English conquest of 1282 is one largely shrouded in mystery. For the Age of Princes, an era defined by ever-increased threats of foreign hegemony, internal dynastic strife and constant warfare, the comings and goings of women are little noted in sources. This misfortune touches even the most well-known royal woman of the time, Joan of England (d. 1237), the wife of Llywelyn the Great of Gwynedd, illegitimate daughter of King John and half-sister to Henry III. With evidence of her hand in thwarting a full scale English invasion of Wales to a notorious scandal that ended with the public execution of her supposed lover by her husband and her own imprisonment, Joan’s is a known, but little-told or understood story defined by family turmoil, divided loyalties and political intrigue.
From the time her hand was promised in marriage as the result of the first Welsh-English alliance in 1201 to the end of her life, Joan’s place in the political wranglings between England and the Welsh kingdom of Gwynedd was a fundamental one. As the first woman to be designated Lady of Wales, her role as one a political diplomat in early thirteenth-century Anglo-Welsh relations was instrumental. This first-ever account of Siwan, as she was known to the Welsh, interweaves the details of her life and relationships with a gendered reassessment of Anglo-Welsh politics by highlighting her involvement in affairs, discussing events in which she may well have been involved but have gone unrecorded and her overall deployment of royal female agency.
256 pages, Hardcover
Published November 23, 2020
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April 26, 2022There is very little historical information available about Joan (or Joanna or Siwan) who was the illegitimate daughter of the notorious King John (of "sign the Magna Carta or else" fame). What is known is that as a young teenager she became the wife of Llewellyn the Great, essentially the first real Prince of Wales and stayed married to him through thick, thin, war, peace, political intrigues, and an affaire that resulted in the public hanging of her paramour and her own banishment for a year. This sounds like a lot of information but the paucity of actual details causes there to be much left to speculation, a great deal of which is based on the lives of other medieval woman of importance (or quasi importance). The problem that I had with the book, however, isn't one relating to the absence of hard facts. It's one of the writing itself. Sadly, the writer never manages to breathe life into her subject, thus making the reader's experience a real slog through names, dates, possibilities, and assumptions. While it's true that she did not have a lot to work with, it's also true that there is more to history than recitation. So unless one has a burning need to know what little is known about Joan, there's no point to reading the book as it is largely academic and reads, regrettably, like something that would meet the need of publish-or-perish had the author been a university professor. Additionally (and I say this as a grammarian so grammatical errors drive me crazy), there was either no copy editor at all or there was a copy editor who needs to learn more about English grammar and usage. There also appears to have been no reader of proof pages as the book is littered with misspellings and meanings that are altered because of misspellings. However, the book does increase one's admiration of Sharon Penman's "Here Be Dragons", a historical novel about the same individual. Considering how little available material there is about Joan/Joanna, Penman's book knocks it out of the park.
September 8, 2020
Joan/Joanna of Wales was the first historical figure I ever became fascinated with, after many years ago reading Sharon Penman’s Here Be Dragons, about Joanna and Llewelyn Fawr, the Prince of Gwynedd. Very few facts are known about Joan; she was an illegitimate daughter of King John, she married Llewelyn and bore his children, and she interceded between her warring husband and father on more than one occasion to try and broker peace. But the documentation of all this is thin indeed; of Llewelyn’s (at least 6) daughters, only one, Elen, is definitively documented to be Joan’s daughter.
Therefore, an awful lot of Joan’s life must be determined by logical supposition. Would an illegitimate daughter of Llewelyn have been considered of value enough as an alliance prospect to marry a man like Reginald de Braose? Would that daughter, not by Joan, have named one of her own children John, and another Joan? Screamingly unlikely, and therefore Messer concludes, as have others, that Gwladys Ddu was Llewelyn and Joanna’s legitimate daughter, and so almost certainly was Marared, definitely Elen, very probably Gwenllian and indeed the mysterious Susanna, mentioned exactly once in any history when she was given over to the custody of the English king as a hostage.
The problem with writing a biography of a woman who lived 800 years ago and of whose life so little documentation exists is that a great deal of the above sort of logical extrapolation has to be applied to make it more than a bare recitation of a very few dates and events. The author does a good job of this, examining the changes in Welsh conventions and law during the period of Joanna and Llewelyn’s reign. It is documented fact that the pair gained in status during the period, evidenced by their changes in titles at the least, but also their power and influence. It is quite literally inconceivable that a queen (for that is what Joan was) did not significantly influence the customs and habits of her court and her country over three decades of ruling, especially with her husband frequently away making war.
Joan’s contribution to diplomatic relations between Wales and England is also delved into, and here is where I think the author deviated from logical extrapolation into supposition a bit too much. There are several documented instances of Joanna interceding first with her father John and later her brother Henry on Llewelyn’s behalf, but there are many occasions when negotiations and meetings occurred and Joanna isn’t mentioned at all. Considering that Joanna had at least four and possibly as many as six children who survived to adulthood (and there would very likely have been more who did not, considering the medieval mortality rate for children) I for one just do not buy that she was constantly traipsing back and forth across the difficult terrain of North Wales to Shrewsbury, Chester or Worcester. (For context, I grew up just outside Denbigh. I know that country. I definitely wouldn’t have wanted to be riding a horse across it while pregnant or soon after giving birth). The author on several occasions makes remarks to the effect that Joanna isn’t mentioned ‘but could very well have been present’ at specific negotiations and, for me, this is just unnecessary conjecture.
In the book’s final chapter, the author notes that the purpose of this book is to encourage greater thought on the impact women such as Joan had on history, and it is beyond doubt that Joan’s impact was long-lasting, even if largely undocumented. The Welsh court was a very different place after Joan of England’s reign, and there can be no question that during her lifetime her efforts decreased tensions and averted battles on several occasions. If you accept (as most historians and genealogists now do) that Gwladys Ddu was indeed her daughter, Joan’s descendants are sitting on the throne of England (and therefore, Wales) today, a fact I think Joan herself would be most pleased by.
I’ll give this four stars, for a soundly researched and thought-provoking biography of a fascinating medieval queen. It’s easy to read and not at all dry, but the author does at times go a little too far for my liking with conjecture and supposition that’s unnecessary.
Disclaimer: I received a review copy of this title via NetGalley.
Therefore, an awful lot of Joan’s life must be determined by logical supposition. Would an illegitimate daughter of Llewelyn have been considered of value enough as an alliance prospect to marry a man like Reginald de Braose? Would that daughter, not by Joan, have named one of her own children John, and another Joan? Screamingly unlikely, and therefore Messer concludes, as have others, that Gwladys Ddu was Llewelyn and Joanna’s legitimate daughter, and so almost certainly was Marared, definitely Elen, very probably Gwenllian and indeed the mysterious Susanna, mentioned exactly once in any history when she was given over to the custody of the English king as a hostage.
The problem with writing a biography of a woman who lived 800 years ago and of whose life so little documentation exists is that a great deal of the above sort of logical extrapolation has to be applied to make it more than a bare recitation of a very few dates and events. The author does a good job of this, examining the changes in Welsh conventions and law during the period of Joanna and Llewelyn’s reign. It is documented fact that the pair gained in status during the period, evidenced by their changes in titles at the least, but also their power and influence. It is quite literally inconceivable that a queen (for that is what Joan was) did not significantly influence the customs and habits of her court and her country over three decades of ruling, especially with her husband frequently away making war.
Joan’s contribution to diplomatic relations between Wales and England is also delved into, and here is where I think the author deviated from logical extrapolation into supposition a bit too much. There are several documented instances of Joanna interceding first with her father John and later her brother Henry on Llewelyn’s behalf, but there are many occasions when negotiations and meetings occurred and Joanna isn’t mentioned at all. Considering that Joanna had at least four and possibly as many as six children who survived to adulthood (and there would very likely have been more who did not, considering the medieval mortality rate for children) I for one just do not buy that she was constantly traipsing back and forth across the difficult terrain of North Wales to Shrewsbury, Chester or Worcester. (For context, I grew up just outside Denbigh. I know that country. I definitely wouldn’t have wanted to be riding a horse across it while pregnant or soon after giving birth). The author on several occasions makes remarks to the effect that Joanna isn’t mentioned ‘but could very well have been present’ at specific negotiations and, for me, this is just unnecessary conjecture.
In the book’s final chapter, the author notes that the purpose of this book is to encourage greater thought on the impact women such as Joan had on history, and it is beyond doubt that Joan’s impact was long-lasting, even if largely undocumented. The Welsh court was a very different place after Joan of England’s reign, and there can be no question that during her lifetime her efforts decreased tensions and averted battles on several occasions. If you accept (as most historians and genealogists now do) that Gwladys Ddu was indeed her daughter, Joan’s descendants are sitting on the throne of England (and therefore, Wales) today, a fact I think Joan herself would be most pleased by.
I’ll give this four stars, for a soundly researched and thought-provoking biography of a fascinating medieval queen. It’s easy to read and not at all dry, but the author does at times go a little too far for my liking with conjecture and supposition that’s unnecessary.
Disclaimer: I received a review copy of this title via NetGalley.
September 3, 2020
This was a difficult review for me not due to the content but how to formulate my many and varied thoughts on this book as they are at odds with each other.
On the one hand, this is a detailed study on the role of royal / noble women of the Welsh ruling houses (the titles are interchangeable) during the late 12th and early 13th centuries. To illustrate her points, the author's chosen subject is Joan, daughter of John of England, one of the predominant women at this time. Messer provides us with a well researched and thought out argument for her choice of Joan's mother, which she utilises throughout the narrative.
A number of chapters cross over with each other as certain themes are discussed, and at times we jump forward and backwards in the timeline so that there is no strict chronological order to things. A number of other notable women are also used to provide examples of their influence in the areas of hospitality, patronage, marriage, and some times, in the changing of prevailing attitudes and customs - most of these women have some connection of Joan.
What I am at odds with is the documentation used to support the theory that Joan played a dominant political role in Wales at this period. Messer acknowledges that ".. invisibility in sources doesn't naturally preclude invisibility in life ..". It also doesn't preclude an active political role. There is quite a bit of "it is likely" and "it is possible"and to conclude that Joan may have been one of the "unnamed" persons who may or may not have been awarded safe conduct to attend meetings without factual evidence does not make it fact. Alternatively, to assume that the granting of land and property to Joan and Llwellyn is payment for Joan's role as political negotiator or "peace weaver" would be to make fact out of supposition and assumptions, and to insert her into the narrative that may not be hers to own, and ponder the possibilities.
I have no doubt that Joan may have played an important political role as wife of the reigning prince, however, I would like to have seen some more supporting documentation from the multiple sources used - an image of a document, a translation of a text, a pipe role entry. To tell us that "... simply because details are non-existent does not mean .. Joan did not parley behind the scenes as she was so wont to do on many occasions ..". That is a rather bland and empty statement to put forth as a solidly researched argument.
In fact, as Messer admits, there is only one case that we actually know that Joan had a hand in it - the rest remains a matter of "contextualisation". And so Joan, like many women of her era are left to ".. languish in the shadows of the feats, tragedies and majesties of the powerful men .." in their lives, and that Joan's life has and will remain a mystery.
Look, this is a decent work on the role of women in Wales - maybe that should have been the focus, using what is known of Joan and the many other notable women, to provide a discussion on the different areas where women did have a documented involvement in society and politics.
On the one hand, this is a detailed study on the role of royal / noble women of the Welsh ruling houses (the titles are interchangeable) during the late 12th and early 13th centuries. To illustrate her points, the author's chosen subject is Joan, daughter of John of England, one of the predominant women at this time. Messer provides us with a well researched and thought out argument for her choice of Joan's mother, which she utilises throughout the narrative.
A number of chapters cross over with each other as certain themes are discussed, and at times we jump forward and backwards in the timeline so that there is no strict chronological order to things. A number of other notable women are also used to provide examples of their influence in the areas of hospitality, patronage, marriage, and some times, in the changing of prevailing attitudes and customs - most of these women have some connection of Joan.
What I am at odds with is the documentation used to support the theory that Joan played a dominant political role in Wales at this period. Messer acknowledges that ".. invisibility in sources doesn't naturally preclude invisibility in life ..". It also doesn't preclude an active political role. There is quite a bit of "it is likely" and "it is possible"and to conclude that Joan may have been one of the "unnamed" persons who may or may not have been awarded safe conduct to attend meetings without factual evidence does not make it fact. Alternatively, to assume that the granting of land and property to Joan and Llwellyn is payment for Joan's role as political negotiator or "peace weaver" would be to make fact out of supposition and assumptions, and to insert her into the narrative that may not be hers to own, and ponder the possibilities.
I have no doubt that Joan may have played an important political role as wife of the reigning prince, however, I would like to have seen some more supporting documentation from the multiple sources used - an image of a document, a translation of a text, a pipe role entry. To tell us that "... simply because details are non-existent does not mean .. Joan did not parley behind the scenes as she was so wont to do on many occasions ..". That is a rather bland and empty statement to put forth as a solidly researched argument.
In fact, as Messer admits, there is only one case that we actually know that Joan had a hand in it - the rest remains a matter of "contextualisation". And so Joan, like many women of her era are left to ".. languish in the shadows of the feats, tragedies and majesties of the powerful men .." in their lives, and that Joan's life has and will remain a mystery.
Look, this is a decent work on the role of women in Wales - maybe that should have been the focus, using what is known of Joan and the many other notable women, to provide a discussion on the different areas where women did have a documented involvement in society and politics.
June 23, 2023
Surprising.
There is not tu much known About Joan Princess of Wales, the bastard daughter of John Lackaland, there is not even clear who was her mother? where did she spend her childhood? , when did she married? Etc.... There is a very few mentions about her in contemporary records and post contemporary, so I was extremely surprised to find a biography about her, I will be honest I like this book, but I can't consider this a true Biography because there is not enough information to make one, we know in what year she was born, who was her husband and her father, what year she passed away, and that's it, so what we have here is information about the years that she live in and a lot of theories, what was very interesting, her mother for example her name it seems to be Constance but there is not evidence about it, and the author chose some women that could be Joan's mother, some of them called constance and someone related to Joan, then we have the options for her childhood and education and that's the way this book works, It is disappointing to have so less information but it is what it is women's life were not recorded as we would like to and still the author somehow was able to create a big and interesting book, unfortunately the order of it and organization was a bit chaotic, the author starts a topic and then jump to another, plus when is about her marriage, and her love affair with William the braouse the author get lose with one theory and we don't really read deep in it. So at the end is not bad I Wish we could have more books like this of medieval woman but the execution was not as good as I expected.
There is not tu much known About Joan Princess of Wales, the bastard daughter of John Lackaland, there is not even clear who was her mother? where did she spend her childhood? , when did she married? Etc.... There is a very few mentions about her in contemporary records and post contemporary, so I was extremely surprised to find a biography about her, I will be honest I like this book, but I can't consider this a true Biography because there is not enough information to make one, we know in what year she was born, who was her husband and her father, what year she passed away, and that's it, so what we have here is information about the years that she live in and a lot of theories, what was very interesting, her mother for example her name it seems to be Constance but there is not evidence about it, and the author chose some women that could be Joan's mother, some of them called constance and someone related to Joan, then we have the options for her childhood and education and that's the way this book works, It is disappointing to have so less information but it is what it is women's life were not recorded as we would like to and still the author somehow was able to create a big and interesting book, unfortunately the order of it and organization was a bit chaotic, the author starts a topic and then jump to another, plus when is about her marriage, and her love affair with William the braouse the author get lose with one theory and we don't really read deep in it. So at the end is not bad I Wish we could have more books like this of medieval woman but the execution was not as good as I expected.
December 28, 2021
What an incredible biography! Ever time I picked up “Joan, Lady of Wales”, I learned more about Joan of England, and her life and times as well.
Ms. Messer truly knows how to bring history to life right before the reader’s eyes! Though there are not a lot of primary sources surrounding Joan’s life, Ms. Messer brilliantly weaves together information from the sources that are available with other aspects of her meticulous research (I can only imagine the amount of time she spent researching, as her passion for what she is writing is so clear). She also seamlessly blends all of this with Welsh politics, history, and history of women during the Medieval Era as well.
Joan, or Siwan, was the illegitimate daughter of King John. She later married Llywelyn the Great of Gwynedd, and was at the heart of many events throughout history. She often tried to keep peace between England and Wales, and was at the heart of many court intrigue and politics. She was such a strong woman…and I will simply say…this biography is a must-read!
If you enjoy Medieval History, I highly recommend this biography! Thank you so much to author Danna R. Messer for writing such a through and well-research biography. I learned so much while reading this book, and so look forward to learning even more about Joan and Wales as well.
Thank you so much to Pen & Sword History for the review copy of this biography, it is amazing! All opinions expressed in this review are my own.
Ms. Messer truly knows how to bring history to life right before the reader’s eyes! Though there are not a lot of primary sources surrounding Joan’s life, Ms. Messer brilliantly weaves together information from the sources that are available with other aspects of her meticulous research (I can only imagine the amount of time she spent researching, as her passion for what she is writing is so clear). She also seamlessly blends all of this with Welsh politics, history, and history of women during the Medieval Era as well.
Joan, or Siwan, was the illegitimate daughter of King John. She later married Llywelyn the Great of Gwynedd, and was at the heart of many events throughout history. She often tried to keep peace between England and Wales, and was at the heart of many court intrigue and politics. She was such a strong woman…and I will simply say…this biography is a must-read!
If you enjoy Medieval History, I highly recommend this biography! Thank you so much to author Danna R. Messer for writing such a through and well-research biography. I learned so much while reading this book, and so look forward to learning even more about Joan and Wales as well.
Thank you so much to Pen & Sword History for the review copy of this biography, it is amazing! All opinions expressed in this review are my own.
September 18, 2020
Medieval women held many different titles that defined their roles and their connections. Mothers, daughters, and wives tended to be the most popular and the most common. Titles such as queen, political diplomat, and peace weaver tend to be rare and given to women of power. Yet, these words accurately depict a unique woman who lived during the Angevin/ Plantagenet dynasty. She was the illegitimate daughter of the notorious King John and the wife of Llywelyn the Great, a Prince of Wales. She worked tirelessly to establish peace between England and Wales, yet she has not received much attention in the past. Her name was Joan, Lady of Wales, and her story is brought to life in Danna R. Messer’s book, “Joan, Lady of Wales: Power and Politics of King John’s Daughter”.
I would like to thank Pen and Sword Books and Net Galley for sending me a copy of this book. I did not know much about Joan, except what I read about her in Sharon Bennett Connolly’s latest book, “Ladies of Magna Carta: Women of Influence in Thirteenth-Century England”. She sounded really interesting so when I heard about this book by Messer, I wanted to read it to learn more about Joan.
As someone who did not know a lot about Joan or medieval Wales, I found this book informative and enjoyable. Messer takes the time to explain what life was like for a royal Welsh couple, like Joan and Llywelyn, and why their marriage made such an impact in the long run. On paper, it was a princess from England marrying a prince from Wales, but what made this union so unique was the fact that Joan was the illegitimate daughter of King John and yet she was treated like a beloved legitimate child. Of course, this marriage was first and foremost, a political match, but it seemed to have developed into a strong and loving partnership, that endured 30 years of trials and tribulations.
One of the major trials that Joan had to deal with was to prevent England and Wales from going to war against each other. Truly a monumental challenge for, as Messer meticulously points out, Llywelyn and either King John or King Henry III were constantly having disagreements. I could just picture Joan getting exasperated that she had to try to calm things down between England and Wales every single time. Her diplomatic skills were truly remarkable, especially with how much influence she possessed in both countries.
Probably the most controversial event in Joan’s life is her affair with William de Braose, which led to his execution and her imprisonment. Messer does a good job explaining what we know about this situation. Unfortunately, like many events in Joan’s life, Messer has to use a bit of guesswork to try and put together the clues about Joan and figure out what happened. It can be a bit frustrating, but we have to remember that Joan lived over 800 years ago and women were not recorded as detailed as they are now or even 500 years ago. I think we can give Messer a pass on guessing where Joan was and what her role was in certain events.
Overall, I found this book enlightening. I think Messer’s writing style is engaging and she was dedicated to finding out the truth, as far as the facts would take her. I think this is a fantastic book for someone who needs an introduction to medieval Welsh royal lifestyle, the power of royal Welsh women, and of course, a meticulously detailed account of the life of Joan, Lady of Wales. If this describes you, check out “Joan, Lady of Wales: Power and Politics of King John’s Daughter” by Danna R. Messer.
I would like to thank Pen and Sword Books and Net Galley for sending me a copy of this book. I did not know much about Joan, except what I read about her in Sharon Bennett Connolly’s latest book, “Ladies of Magna Carta: Women of Influence in Thirteenth-Century England”. She sounded really interesting so when I heard about this book by Messer, I wanted to read it to learn more about Joan.
As someone who did not know a lot about Joan or medieval Wales, I found this book informative and enjoyable. Messer takes the time to explain what life was like for a royal Welsh couple, like Joan and Llywelyn, and why their marriage made such an impact in the long run. On paper, it was a princess from England marrying a prince from Wales, but what made this union so unique was the fact that Joan was the illegitimate daughter of King John and yet she was treated like a beloved legitimate child. Of course, this marriage was first and foremost, a political match, but it seemed to have developed into a strong and loving partnership, that endured 30 years of trials and tribulations.
One of the major trials that Joan had to deal with was to prevent England and Wales from going to war against each other. Truly a monumental challenge for, as Messer meticulously points out, Llywelyn and either King John or King Henry III were constantly having disagreements. I could just picture Joan getting exasperated that she had to try to calm things down between England and Wales every single time. Her diplomatic skills were truly remarkable, especially with how much influence she possessed in both countries.
Probably the most controversial event in Joan’s life is her affair with William de Braose, which led to his execution and her imprisonment. Messer does a good job explaining what we know about this situation. Unfortunately, like many events in Joan’s life, Messer has to use a bit of guesswork to try and put together the clues about Joan and figure out what happened. It can be a bit frustrating, but we have to remember that Joan lived over 800 years ago and women were not recorded as detailed as they are now or even 500 years ago. I think we can give Messer a pass on guessing where Joan was and what her role was in certain events.
Overall, I found this book enlightening. I think Messer’s writing style is engaging and she was dedicated to finding out the truth, as far as the facts would take her. I think this is a fantastic book for someone who needs an introduction to medieval Welsh royal lifestyle, the power of royal Welsh women, and of course, a meticulously detailed account of the life of Joan, Lady of Wales. If this describes you, check out “Joan, Lady of Wales: Power and Politics of King John’s Daughter” by Danna R. Messer.
October 13, 2020
There is an unspoken assumption in much medieval scholarship, that women were helpless damsels under the watchful care of fathers or brothers. The ability of medieval women to take independent action or speak out was restricted by the stage of their “life cycle.” Aristocratic maidens and widows had more autonomy than wives and mothers did. Sadly, history is told by those in power and the actual role of medieval women is rarely portrayed. Partially that is due to their invisibility and scant primary source materials referencing them. But more often it reflects gender bias found in scholarship. Fortunately, female scholars are beginning to explore the role of women in medieval history and determine how gender impacts the way these figures are seen.
Danna Messer addresses all these issues in her book, Joan of Wales; Power & Politics of King John’s Daughter. Joan was the illegitimate daughter of King John of England (c. 1167-1216). She was given in marriage to Llywelyn ap Iorwerth (prince of North Wales) to broker a peace between the two lands. Yet Messer’s gives a compelling argument that Joan was far more than an aristocratic consort. She took on the traditional role as Llywelyn’s wife (through hospitality and gift-giving) while also holding significant political responsibilities. Joan did all that and more as she served as a political diplomat, emissary, and counselor during the reigns of both King John and Henry III, her half-brother
The book asks the question “what if”? The questions are answered with a mixture of primary sources and conjecture. Together they provide us a glimpse of how history may have been and the role of medieval aristocratic/royal women in society and politics. It is an exploration that is long overdue.
Danna Messer addresses all these issues in her book, Joan of Wales; Power & Politics of King John’s Daughter. Joan was the illegitimate daughter of King John of England (c. 1167-1216). She was given in marriage to Llywelyn ap Iorwerth (prince of North Wales) to broker a peace between the two lands. Yet Messer’s gives a compelling argument that Joan was far more than an aristocratic consort. She took on the traditional role as Llywelyn’s wife (through hospitality and gift-giving) while also holding significant political responsibilities. Joan did all that and more as she served as a political diplomat, emissary, and counselor during the reigns of both King John and Henry III, her half-brother
The book asks the question “what if”? The questions are answered with a mixture of primary sources and conjecture. Together they provide us a glimpse of how history may have been and the role of medieval aristocratic/royal women in society and politics. It is an exploration that is long overdue.
October 9, 2020
Joan was the illegitimate daughter of King John of England although she was later legitimised. She was married to Llywelyn the Great, a Prince of Wales and although I was not previously aware of her, I do have an interest in the Plantagenets so this book appealed to me in an effort to broaden my knowledge of the earlier Plantagenets.
Unfortunately, there are very few sources related to Lady Joan so the author has had to make educated guesses based on events and actions of others.
Joan was daughter and sister to Kings and must have often felt her loyalties torn as she struggled to hold the peace between England and her marital home of Wales.
Messer begins by explaining the background of Joan's life, who her parents were, interestingly the identity of her mother cannot be certified. Messer also discusses the role of noble women at the time and other noble females and referred to throughout.
Although there are few sources directly regarding Joan the author has brought a previously unknown Joan to life through other events and sources referring to alternative individuals.
One part of Joan’s life I wasn't expecting to read about was an alleged affair with William de Braose which unfortunately led to Joan's imprisonment and much more dire consequences for William. I would have loved to have known more about this as due to a lack of sources Messer has had to make assumptions and guesses and whilst these provide very interesting reading it's a shame we don't have more evidence.
I really enjoyed this and would recommend to all who have an interest in the history of noble women, not just Joan as this book includes others!
Unfortunately, there are very few sources related to Lady Joan so the author has had to make educated guesses based on events and actions of others.
Joan was daughter and sister to Kings and must have often felt her loyalties torn as she struggled to hold the peace between England and her marital home of Wales.
Messer begins by explaining the background of Joan's life, who her parents were, interestingly the identity of her mother cannot be certified. Messer also discusses the role of noble women at the time and other noble females and referred to throughout.
Although there are few sources directly regarding Joan the author has brought a previously unknown Joan to life through other events and sources referring to alternative individuals.
One part of Joan’s life I wasn't expecting to read about was an alleged affair with William de Braose which unfortunately led to Joan's imprisonment and much more dire consequences for William. I would have loved to have known more about this as due to a lack of sources Messer has had to make assumptions and guesses and whilst these provide very interesting reading it's a shame we don't have more evidence.
I really enjoyed this and would recommend to all who have an interest in the history of noble women, not just Joan as this book includes others!
October 28, 2020
This was an interesting book about Joan, Lady of Wales. I certainly enjoyed this book and I learned quite a lot about Medieval Welsh culture and politics. I read a lot about English history, but this was my first book specifically about Wales and it definitely makes me want to read more!
The issue with writing a book about Joan is that there are so few sources that mention her. Only a couple in fact. And several of the sources that we have were written centuries later. Messer does do a good job of explaining this hinderance and does discuss the bias/shortcomings of the sources used. Most of the narrative about Joan is based on extrapolating evidence from the lives of those around her. At times Messer takes her extrapolations too far though. Even when we have zero evidence of Joan’s hand in something, Messer still credits Joan with accomplishing that outcome.
As mentioned, this book mostly focuses on those in Joan’s orbit, intending to use them as examples or to fill in the gaps of Joan’s life. But because the focus is often on someone else, I don’t feel like I got a good sense of who Joan was. But I do have a good idea of what a royal Medieval Welsh woman could have been. All in all, this was an interesting read and I learned a lot. I will definitely be coming back to this time period and learning more.
- I received an eArc from NetGalley in exchange for an honest review -
The issue with writing a book about Joan is that there are so few sources that mention her. Only a couple in fact. And several of the sources that we have were written centuries later. Messer does do a good job of explaining this hinderance and does discuss the bias/shortcomings of the sources used. Most of the narrative about Joan is based on extrapolating evidence from the lives of those around her. At times Messer takes her extrapolations too far though. Even when we have zero evidence of Joan’s hand in something, Messer still credits Joan with accomplishing that outcome.
As mentioned, this book mostly focuses on those in Joan’s orbit, intending to use them as examples or to fill in the gaps of Joan’s life. But because the focus is often on someone else, I don’t feel like I got a good sense of who Joan was. But I do have a good idea of what a royal Medieval Welsh woman could have been. All in all, this was an interesting read and I learned a lot. I will definitely be coming back to this time period and learning more.
- I received an eArc from NetGalley in exchange for an honest review -
September 15, 2020
I received Joan, Lady of Wales as part of a NetGalley giveaway.
Joan was the illegitimate daughter of the infamous King John of England and an unknown mother and the wife of Llewelyn the Great of Wales. A skilled diplomat and apparently beloved figure (as queen, mother, wife, and daughter) whose reputation was called into question following a (probable) affair with her husband's rival, she's a fascinating figure of female agency in the Middle Ages.
This was a hit or miss read for me. While reading it, it was relatively easy to get through, but it was very hard to pick it back up in the first place. While I appreciate the paucity of sources for any medieval subject, especially a woman, I felt like I didn't really get a sense of Joan herself, but rather was told about everyone in her orbit. For instance, there was an extended riff about her stepdaughter-in-law that seem to meaningfully relate to Joan in any way. It was like trying to depict Joan by the negative space created by everyone around her. As interesting as I think Joan was, I didn't really get a sense of her in this narrative, though again, I understand that it's hard when there's just so little about her out there.
Joan was the illegitimate daughter of the infamous King John of England and an unknown mother and the wife of Llewelyn the Great of Wales. A skilled diplomat and apparently beloved figure (as queen, mother, wife, and daughter) whose reputation was called into question following a (probable) affair with her husband's rival, she's a fascinating figure of female agency in the Middle Ages.
This was a hit or miss read for me. While reading it, it was relatively easy to get through, but it was very hard to pick it back up in the first place. While I appreciate the paucity of sources for any medieval subject, especially a woman, I felt like I didn't really get a sense of Joan herself, but rather was told about everyone in her orbit. For instance, there was an extended riff about her stepdaughter-in-law that seem to meaningfully relate to Joan in any way. It was like trying to depict Joan by the negative space created by everyone around her. As interesting as I think Joan was, I didn't really get a sense of her in this narrative, though again, I understand that it's hard when there's just so little about her out there.
September 4, 2023
Firstly I am really pleased that Danna Messer has written this book. The story of Joan, lady of Wales, wife of Llewelyn Fawr, the greatest prince of Wales, daughter of King John and sister of Henry III deserves to be told. She is an incredible woman who was one of the finest diplomats of the thirteenth century, taken from her royal upbringing as a teenager to life in the rough and tumble of native Wales and marriage to a much older man.
The problem is that there really aren't many records of Joan's life so much of Danna's book is speculation and an attempt to turn a feminist turn to medieval times. She falls between telling Llewelyn's story and adding Joan to various pieces of it.
There are some useful pieces on Emma of Anjou and Senana, wife of Llewelyn's illegitimate son, Gruffudd which show that women did play a significant part in 13th century Wales which overall means that this is a valuable contribution to a largely neglected period of Welsh history.
The problem is that there really aren't many records of Joan's life so much of Danna's book is speculation and an attempt to turn a feminist turn to medieval times. She falls between telling Llewelyn's story and adding Joan to various pieces of it.
There are some useful pieces on Emma of Anjou and Senana, wife of Llewelyn's illegitimate son, Gruffudd which show that women did play a significant part in 13th century Wales which overall means that this is a valuable contribution to a largely neglected period of Welsh history.
August 14, 2024
I learned 2 new words:
Concubinage - the practice of keeping a concubine
Procreatrix - essentially a mother, but used in this book someone whose sole purpose is to produce children
3 stars b/c I am delighted to read about a Welsh Queen in the 1200s - not a lot of books about women from this time or region. Joan, daughter of King John of England, sister to King Henry III of England, wife of Llywelyn (pronounced like Luth-well-an). Not much is known about Joan, but the author talked about the culture of the time and things we could reasonably assume happened based on historical context & other clues. There is 1 surviving letter from Joan which is neat.
Only 3 stars because of how the book is organized. It did not seem to be linear and we heard about the same events a few times which made it hard to keep track of what was happening when.
Loved listening on audio to hear the Welsh names pronounced. Fascinating language.
Concubinage - the practice of keeping a concubine
Procreatrix - essentially a mother, but used in this book someone whose sole purpose is to produce children
3 stars b/c I am delighted to read about a Welsh Queen in the 1200s - not a lot of books about women from this time or region. Joan, daughter of King John of England, sister to King Henry III of England, wife of Llywelyn (pronounced like Luth-well-an). Not much is known about Joan, but the author talked about the culture of the time and things we could reasonably assume happened based on historical context & other clues. There is 1 surviving letter from Joan which is neat.
Only 3 stars because of how the book is organized. It did not seem to be linear and we heard about the same events a few times which made it hard to keep track of what was happening when.
Loved listening on audio to hear the Welsh names pronounced. Fascinating language.
June 11, 2024
This is a case of a well-researched method of bringing to life a lady who, like so many women in the medieval era, is largely unknown. Most of Joan's prior fame has been the story of her paramour being executed by her husband, Llywelyn. I learned a lot about Welsh noble and royal history in this era, much of which was used to construct likely events in the life of Joan, particularly where direct evidence was not available. There is a lot of supposition out of necessity as to what and why her actions may have happened, but they are reasonable and well considered based on historical evidence. I do find that a pedigree might have been helpful, especially since so many relevant people had similar names. Overall, I enjoyed this book.
March 15, 2021
Great read and very informative not just about Joan but also medieval Welsh women in general and other specific examples. The only reasons it received 4 stars and not 5 is due to the grammatical and textual errors throughout the book that are hard to ignore when there are so many spelling mistakes and missed out/added words.
March 16, 2022
A bit didactic, but nonetheless enjoyable. Joan of Wales was a most impressive woman of her time: diplomat, Queen, mother of five & daughter of a king.
One thing that bothered me was the poor quality of the edited text: words missing, incorrect pronouns, etc. Whoever edited this book was apparently asleep when she/he was proof reading.
One thing that bothered me was the poor quality of the edited text: words missing, incorrect pronouns, etc. Whoever edited this book was apparently asleep when she/he was proof reading.
June 24, 2021
Every bit as fun as a soap opera! I love reading about strong women that pull the strings behind the scenes of thrones and great men. Great story.
I received a Kindle copy from Netgalley in exchange for a fair review.
I received a Kindle copy from Netgalley in exchange for a fair review.
November 8, 2020
Good for those who like, have an interest in or studying women's history and royalty. From 1211 on. A decent biography of her - life, marriage, war and more.
September 10, 2021
What a book what a read when the sequel
August 10, 2022
Difficult to follow because of the Welsh names.
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