A former Senior Partner and Global Managing Director at the legendary design firm IDEO shows how to design conversations and meetings that are creative and impactful.
Conversations are one of the most fundamental means of communicating we have as humans. At their best, conversations are unconstrained, authentic and open—two or more people sharing thoughts and ideas in a way that bridges our individual experiences, achieves a common goal. At their worst, they foster misunderstanding, frustration and obscure our real intentions.
How often do you walk away from a conversation feeling really heard? That it moved the people in it forward in some important way? You’re not alone. In his practice as a designer, Fred Dust began to approach conversations differently. After years of trying to broker communication between colleagues and clients, he came to believe there had to a way to design the art of conversation itself with intention and purpose, but still artful and playful. Making Conversation codifies what he learned and outlines the seven elements essential to successful Commitment, Creative Listening, Clarity, Context, Constraints, Change, and Create. Taken together, these seven elements form a set of resources anyone can use to be more deliberate and purposeful in making conversations work.
Interesting and relevant. I could have used a bit more on virtual and online conversations. These were a big part of my work even before the pandemic. But the author is an architect by training, and his insights into how physical spaces affect conversations is probably the strong suit of this book.
I read this because it was free with my WSJ subscription.
I don’t have a ton to say on it. It’s a pretty typical self-help book. It doesn’t surprise or offend. In fact, it’s pretty bland.
The main premise starts out promising. A successful designer is going to give his perspective, after supposedly a ton of research, on how to “design” conversations. It sounded like he would give very practical steps, tips, and tools to use. “Do this, don’t do that. Here’s a specific framework, and here are various options within that.” Instead, 85% of it is nebulous generalities of what to do, instead of concrete answers, falling into my biggest complaint of books in this genre.
Also, despite his claim of doing so much research, the book still feels like it’s based mostly off personal anecdotes. There’s no numbers, no studies, no measurements...nothing convincing from a quantitative view. We just have to take his word that these things work. What research did he actually do? I know he did some, but I’m still not entirely clear.
When he says Making Conversation, Fred Dust doesn't just mean talking with someone, he literally means designing and engineering the conversation with purpose.
This book was a delight to read, which is often hard to say about books meant to teach you something. The author's tone throughout is not overly formal, and sometimes outright conversational (as you might expect). He uses anecdotal examples from his career and life to reinforce the key points. I'll likely be keeping this book handy and rereading it from time to time.
This book was interesting because I expected to learn more about how to be a better conversationalist and communicator, but I actually learned quite a bit about how to use physical structures to create better conversations.
If Priya Parker's The Art of Gathering helps one be more intentional about why, who and how we bring people together, Fred Dust's Making Conversation is the companion book on helping people engage meaningfully in conversation when they do gather. Dust notes that when we bring different sectors - the government, for profits and private companies, and nonprofits and foundations - "sometimes there [is] no common language; other times there [are] different ideas of how a conversation should happen, or even how fast things should move….when we [bring] together diverse stakeholders, communities, and political and cultural entities in hopes of making change, our existing tools [aren't] good enough".
It's worth remembering what Dust points out - "just because we're talking doesn’t mean we're making conversation". And conversations that matter - where there is substantive and intentional engagement - necessarily entail the following: (a) there is difference in the room and the people present cannot be all alike or in agreement; (b) it feels difficult because conversations that matter grapple with hard issues; and (c) something is made - some action results - besides conversation. Dust reminds us that conversations do need to result in action; conversation fatigue arises when people feel that very little emerges from the conversation.
To have a good conversation, Dust advocates approaching dialogue not as a facilitator, but as a designer. Dialogue is something you can create by influencing the structure and feel of the conversation. It relies "not on your interpersonal skills but…the ability to spot opportunity and design for it in order to shape outcome and impact".
Dust identifies various tools for designing conversation, which he terms the 7 Cs of creative conversation: #1: Commitment Having conversations that matter require us to commit to having a conversation over our beliefs and our own agenda. This is difficult because our beliefs and worldview are often "bred into us, and…when we are making conversation, we must be willing to evaluate those beliefs and decide whether they will accompany us into our conversations… [as] the beliefs we start with may actually keep us from entering a conversation at all". Dust states:
"As we explore the idea of conversation as a creative act, we will need to redefine the things we commit to. We need to be less a defender of our beliefs, and instead commit to the process by which we manufacture beliefs: exploration, community, and conversation."
Identify the conversation you want to commit to - to solve a problem? To set strategy? To build agreement or understanding? Identify and commit to the principles that will inform the tone, feel and intention of the conversation. Then design for these. For instance, if the conversation is about team building, the principles might be "light, open-ended and interactive". If it's about informing employees about a new HR policy, it might be "serious, helpful, but still interactive".
#2: Creative Listening Dust makes a distinction between active listening and creative listening. While "being open, engaged, and nonjudgmental feels right…the practices of active listening are so focussed on triggering change in the speaker that we lose the fact that listening is an act of learning for the listener" and can allow for joy and discovery for all parties. But making listening better, more fruitful and more fun requires effort (a different kind of effort from active listening).
Dust suggests asking people to tell a story to show what they mean. A good story is (a) personal; (b) short; (c) is surprising; and (d) is clarifying. Inviting someone to tell a short story and offering guidance/prompts on what was surprising can help move what is a confusing, contentious or meandering dialogue forward. Asking for more nuanced stories can help draw out nuanced insights - like asking a rich person for a story on the last time they felt poor, or asking someone who's lost someone for a story about what surprised them most about death. Pay attention to the feelings and judgments that what the speaker says invokes in you and more importantly, interrogate why these feelings and judgments arise; Dust argues that this is what offers the spark of insight for learning to take place.
(Note: Dust argues that focus groups are "deeply flawed" as having a group of people paid to sit in a room and talk about what they do and don't like about something is a structure "completely unnatural to common human interaction".)
#3: Clarity Dust notes that "sometimes words fail us because we don't have a shared understanding of their meaning. We assume that everyone has a common understanding of the words and concepts we're discussing, when in truth we do not. Sometimes we may be using language that's purpose built for a specific conversation but not well suited to the next conversation we're about to have". He suggests that to ensure clarity and alignment on what words mean, we need to establish their meaning early. What does collaborate mean to different people - do they have the same understanding? Ethical? Innovation?
We can invite people to share visuals of what these terms mean to them to "extract and establish meaning", or to tell a story to illustrate what the term means to them. Do not use jargon or specialised language but use simple language instead.
#4: Context In this chapter, Dust discusses how spaces can shape the conversation. This is a point Parker makes in The Art of Gathering as well. Thinking about how to "edit" a space by removing things that distract and detract (technology, screens that make people stare at the screen rather than look at each other, things that people might fidget with e.g. Post-Its and pens when the conversation does not call for them), and adding props that can move a conversation forward. Dust gives the example of a conversation that used a two-sided illustrated card, one side featuring a bright star and the other side featuring a dark shadow, which people could flip depending on their mood, which revealed how the emotions in the room changed as the conversation flowed.
Beyond props, things like how we arrange ourselves - in a circle? In rows? - and whether we sit in chairs, cross-legged on the floor or stand, shape the conversation as well.
#5: Constraints Here, Dust argues that building constraints for a conversation can help establish the rhythm and pace of a conversation and add that creative spark. Constraints should be (a) specific, not ambiguous; (b) be positive; (c) be surprising [a wild card constraint that can tip participants off that the conversation is a creative one]; (d) be brief (not more than 4 constraints)
In a creative conversation, Dust offers the following advice on critiques; the most important element of critique is boundaries and questions like "what do you love?", "what can't be touched?" and "what are the specific things you need help with?" help to guide the conversation. On feedback, Dust suggests asking "Can I give you feedback on X". Being specific and pointing at something rather than someone puts the conversation on a better footing.
#6: Change This chapter is perhaps less about a tool for designing conversation than an observation that when we stick with familiar formats, it can help us practise spotting change when it happens. For Dust, working with the same formats, constraints and tools over and over again, lets "the conversation feel so familiar and routine that it can fall to the background and you can start getting good at change-spotting".
#7: Create Dust ends of the book with a reminder that the point of making conversation is to "make change together, and then make that change manifest". Conversation as a means of creation. How many times have we either faced conversation fatigue (because nothing ever happens after the conversation), or found ourselves in what senior VP on the Rockefeller Foundation Zia Khan calls "zombie coalitions" - groups of people who get together to talk about a topic, agree to make change, don't but then shuffle forward assuming that those two actions have made them a movement.
Dust peppers his book with numerous interesting examples - Whine and Dine sessions as an alternative to the traditional focus group discussion; Weight Watchers meetings and figuring out how to help people cross the huge threshold of joining a meeting; the listening practice of the Quakers; Elizabeth Warren's work with the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau; "Hunch Hour" introduced by writer and political activist Courtney E Martin to test op-ed ideas for newsworthiness and relevance; Let's Do It in Estonia, a movement to undertake an annual clean up of the country; the Sundance Directors and Screenwriters Lab. Not all of them have a direct link to conversation but serve to offer inspiration on tools and techniques to spark meaningful engagement and discourse.
Thought provoking and inspiring.
This entire review has been hidden because of spoilers.
The strongest part of the book is how to architect the space to facilitate the conversation. I guess this is because the author is an architect and also referencing a lot the company he is working with IDEO (which is famous for innovative designs). I gave it 3 stars because there was not much new to learn from the book. Main insights from the book for me are:
Seven essential components of meaningful conversations: 1. Commitment - to the conversation and people in it 2. Creative listening - to truly listen to the other person 3. Clarity - the usage of right and clear words 4. Context - where you have conversation has big impact on how the conversation goes, it literally sets the script 5. Constraints - every conversation has rules but often those are unstated, arbitrary or unfair 6. Change - to help a group move forward and inspire action 7. Creation - moving from actionable ideas to just action Conversation is always an act of creativity. We can be the makers of conversations that matter the most. Commit to conversations first, beliefs second. Creative conversation is choosing to hold your beliefs lightly, committing to exploration and staying engaged with the set of people that will help you in that exploration. Creative listening: Attention is the rarest and purest form of generosity. - Simon V. Listening is an act of learning for the listener. This new rogerian therapeutic practice is based on open ended, lightly guided set of questions that nudge the patient to self analysis that offer only encouragement. Principles for great stories/ illuminations: 1. An illumination should be short. These stories have a purpose - to share something about you and your view of the world. Edit your stories to the essence you want to share. 2. A story should evoke an emotional response. People tend to remember funny, sad, hardship. Anything to make the listener understand how you feel. 3. An illumination should start where it stops. Know the ending of the story before you start it. A story ends when you discover the insight and not when the story ends. Find the truly revelatory part of your story and make that, where your story stops. 4. A story should have a twist with a reveal. We most tend to remember the story that has a surprise or revelation at its core. Find a twist and make it the end point of your story. Clarity: before you start an important conversation, it is good to clarify the terminology. So you can ensure that all parties have the same understanding of the words that will be used. Try to simplify and more clearly explain your ideas so you can ensure they are understandable for the other parties. Naming something you establish a narrative. Name can set a story in motion. When you name something, make sure that a name is not just descriptive of what it is but descriptive of the aspiration you have for it. Keep track of the name and whether people adopt it. Context: it is comprised from the spaces we inhabit, the things in them and the positions we chose to take in that space. The context can affect the course of conversation, the feel of it, the outcome, even determine what kind of conversations we have. Listening, getting clear on the language, establishing principles are essentially the script of a conversation. Context, space and the things in the space are the stage of the conversation. Changing the position of the bodies of the participants in a conversation can also change the energy of it. Overusing any of the tools (space, position or props) can rob context of the associations that give them power. Save up the context that are truly unique and use them when you are facing conversation that really matters. Why constraints foster creativity: 1. Reach for quantity 2. Free willing is welcomed 3. Criticism is forbidden 4. Combination and improvement are sought Frame rules from negative to positive actions, eg “don’t say mean things” change to “speak kindly”. Don’t be afraid to use fast methods - ask the audience to provide output in short time, eg top 3 issues and the one solution that will solve them to provide within 7min. When you want to give critic be specific, eg “can I give you feedback on X” then you make it about something instead of somebody. Change: there are moments that remind us that we all come from the same source - Rhiannon Giddens. Explore, reflect, advance and then come to change. Keep an eye on change and talk about it. Change needs to be acknowledged and celebrated. Simple acts of marking change: acknowledging and appreciating it, peaceful interruptions often mark change (when we pause we ask ourselves what is happening here, make this question kind of a frame so it allows the group to keep tabs on where a conversation is and where it is going), the right question at the right moment can help spot change. Creation: the minds that develop an idea are often not the same as the hands that can make it happen. When you start brainstorming on an idea - ask each other who you know that can help for it (rule of firsts). It is about who you know who you think can help. It can be helpful even to just get the conversation off the ground. 5 principles to make conversations online: 1. Assess and commit - is this a conversation you should be in. 2. Break the rules - think deliberately about establishing rules of engagement (from how to signal who should be talking next to how long people have to make a point). 3. Adapt the medium to the work - experiment with different technologies of communication. 4. Aim for simplicity and elegance. 5. Design humans in - design with humor, joy, love.
Sweet Jesus. I would have rather read a book on the pseudoscientific topic of body language reading. After finishing this book, I’m just extremely grateful that I didn’t buy it because it was available through my library app. This book is just anecdotal evidence from cover to cover, and the author has made an extremely good living doing what many entrepreneurs do, which is selling BS to large companies and governments.
In short, the author was an architect and then realized he could make money teaching people how to have conversations. Then, throughout the book he gives a ton of activities and extremely weird recommendations to make conversations better in the work place. The way you can spot BS books like this is that they say everything is bad and everything is good, and then they try to provide some ridiculous nuance explaining why X is good in Y situation but not Z situation.
For example, knitting can help you be a better listener in meetings but random thing X will make you worse. Why? Just because.
This was a ridiculous book, and I think what bummed me out the most is that the author is a married gay man, and I expected him to cover some more heavy topics. Finally, at the end he discusses how to have some more difficult conversations, but like the rest of the book, they’re silly, non-scientific recommendations.
Do I recommend this book? Only if you’re a masochist like myself who enjoys binging terrible books to see what dumb thing the author says next.
A little long for the content presented... which probably has more to do with my own diminishing ability to focus (and which is one reason I wanted to read this book in the first place!) Anyway, lots of good stuff here: more about designing/planning important conversations than about engaging in conversation itself.
I now know it's ok (and helpful) to doodle while listening to a conversation. And I am inspired by this quote from the author: "The very act of creation is a courageous, generous, and optimistic act."
This is not the sort of thing I usually read, but I folded it into "self-improvement", a subject I make myself dive into, and did so. I am glad I did. The author and the subject are outside my comfort zone by temperament, politics, culture and the rest, but his commitment to humane principles and data and empiricism (not always compatible) was apparent throughout. The book was non-abrasive and often insightful.
It really did have lots of thoughtful ideas for creating productive conversations in both business and personal life (mostly the former). But many of the ideas proposed here seem to me to be executable only if you work on the design team at your company or if you’re at a high level in your organization’s hierarchy.
When I first started reading this book, it felt like it was more geared to design professionals. There are clearly defined steps for having meaningful conversations and the author is an accomplished design professional. However, in the latter parts of the book, it became clear that this is about more than just design. It's a pretty long read, so hang in there!
A refreshing approach on how to design conversations mixed in with laugh out loud real life examples. A great read and a book to keep close to remind you of the 7 Cs to guide your conversations in the future. You'll be better for it!
I have learnt quite a lot in this book which I can always go back for referencing. Having meaningful conversations in how and where to communicate and with whom in different settings of a meeting room be it virtual or physical. Look at the space you are in, the next time you have a conversation!
I found many interesting thesis, what is missing is the flow that makes the book more interesting and compelling.Beside that, Fred Dust us definitely one of the best authors at the field of communication workdwide
Easy listening while driving Mostly refers to designing conversations that you want to have a specific outcome or experience Some new ideas: - "May I give feedback on ___?", - Do something creative while you converse, like sewing or a puzzle
Some bits about active listening helped me. Unfortunately , that was all I pulled from this book. Very very basic and somewhat repetitive. This would be good for a younger reader possibly or someone who grew up a bit isolated and needs some starter knowledge on communicating.