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Not So Black and White: An Invitation to Honest Conversations about Race and Faith
As seen on Good Morning America!
Reggie Dabbs and John Driver--a Black man and a white man, and longtime friends--engage in a courageous, respectfully honest, challenging exploration of racism in America, including how Black and white Christians can come together to fight the evils of racism within our hearts and our systems, including our churches.
White privilege. Black Lives Matter. George Floyd. When it comes to racism in America, many of us feel confused, overwhelmed, angry--and eager to know how to engage in meaningful conversations and actions surrounding such a difficult topic. In Not So Black and White, public school communicator and internationally acclaimed speaker Reggie Dabbs and pastor John Driver team up to offer a hope-filled, convicting, inspiring look at how to be anti-racist in America today.
Through Reggie and John's honest conversations, you will:
Hear the stories of fellow believers who have found ways to reach across the racial barrier with humility, empathy, and forgiveness
Understand a simple yet robust history of racism in America and in the church, including its role in systems, policies, and individual actions
Discover fully biblical yet culturally wise responses to the challenges of racism in yourself and your community
Come away with fresh thought processes and practical steps for what you can do to think rightly and engage bravely in conversations and actions to end racism
Not So Black and White is a compelling resource for pastors, teachers, and community leaders who want to read about issues of racism from a biblical and a historical perspective. For readers of all denominations and backgrounds, Not So Black and White equips us to engage together in the intentional work of dismantling racism, just as the gospel calls us to do.
Reggie Dabbs and John Driver--a Black man and a white man, and longtime friends--engage in a courageous, respectfully honest, challenging exploration of racism in America, including how Black and white Christians can come together to fight the evils of racism within our hearts and our systems, including our churches.
White privilege. Black Lives Matter. George Floyd. When it comes to racism in America, many of us feel confused, overwhelmed, angry--and eager to know how to engage in meaningful conversations and actions surrounding such a difficult topic. In Not So Black and White, public school communicator and internationally acclaimed speaker Reggie Dabbs and pastor John Driver team up to offer a hope-filled, convicting, inspiring look at how to be anti-racist in America today.
Through Reggie and John's honest conversations, you will:
Hear the stories of fellow believers who have found ways to reach across the racial barrier with humility, empathy, and forgiveness
Understand a simple yet robust history of racism in America and in the church, including its role in systems, policies, and individual actions
Discover fully biblical yet culturally wise responses to the challenges of racism in yourself and your community
Come away with fresh thought processes and practical steps for what you can do to think rightly and engage bravely in conversations and actions to end racism
Not So Black and White is a compelling resource for pastors, teachers, and community leaders who want to read about issues of racism from a biblical and a historical perspective. For readers of all denominations and backgrounds, Not So Black and White equips us to engage together in the intentional work of dismantling racism, just as the gospel calls us to do.
288 pages, Paperback
Published October 12, 2021
29 people are currently reading
364 people want to read
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Displaying 1 - 19 of 19 reviews
October 16, 2021
Scholarly AND accessible…A must read!
As a PhD and university professor, I am often overwhelmed by requests to chime in on the new books about race and racism in America. Over the last 18 months, I’ve witnessed countless well-intended Christians attempt to “fix” the problem of racism in America. Some try to fix it with cliche and cherry-picked Bible verses. Others try to make it go away by shouting and shaming. None of those tactics are helpful. None of those tactics are educated.
In this book, John and Reggie tap into the one force that is capable of overcoming the most complex issues of the day: authentic relationships. John and Reggie don’t write from an ivory tower or a Christian bubble. They write as two men who are living out honest conversations and reconciliation in real time.
What I loved the most about this book is the amount of scholarship found in each chapter. John’s academic background is on full display as he and Reggie share valuable historical and social data in a way that both frames and substantiates their strong points. However, none of this reads like a textbook. The conversational tone makes this rich data accessible to anyone who wants to move this needed conversation forward in a healthy manner.
This book is a must read!
As a PhD and university professor, I am often overwhelmed by requests to chime in on the new books about race and racism in America. Over the last 18 months, I’ve witnessed countless well-intended Christians attempt to “fix” the problem of racism in America. Some try to fix it with cliche and cherry-picked Bible verses. Others try to make it go away by shouting and shaming. None of those tactics are helpful. None of those tactics are educated.
In this book, John and Reggie tap into the one force that is capable of overcoming the most complex issues of the day: authentic relationships. John and Reggie don’t write from an ivory tower or a Christian bubble. They write as two men who are living out honest conversations and reconciliation in real time.
What I loved the most about this book is the amount of scholarship found in each chapter. John’s academic background is on full display as he and Reggie share valuable historical and social data in a way that both frames and substantiates their strong points. However, none of this reads like a textbook. The conversational tone makes this rich data accessible to anyone who wants to move this needed conversation forward in a healthy manner.
This book is a must read!
May 3, 2023
An excellent, readable study of systemic racism from a faith perspective. Used this in a church book study.
November 2, 2021
This book has really made me stop & rethink my actions. It is a gut punch to hear what POC go through for what I consider every day activities (i.e. driving a car, walking down the street). I highly recommend this book. It is a true eye opener on how we can all improve on relationships & make a difference.
August 19, 2022
Two long-time friends, one Black and one white, join together for a conversation about race. While the content of Not So Black and White can be found in any number of books, it’s the camaraderie between the authors that makes this book stand out as it models the type of relationships and conversation that need to be developed in order to come together and fight the evils of racism.
One of the problems with the way evangelical Christianity tends to define racism is that it’s seen as something personal and individual—“We need heart change.” And while that’s not wrong, it ignores the way racism has worked its way into our systems and benefits those who “don’t have a racist bone in their body.” To correct this, a lot of secular antiracist ideology focuses on systemic change. And white evangelicals, long in power because of those systems, are loathe to see them go. So the fight begins between whether reform should be personal or systemic. Reggie Dabbs and John Driver have the answer—it’s both. And “we can’t wait for heart change to occur before we address unjust systems (p. 37).”
Not So Black and White provides a discussion of racism that’s steeped in history (Driver is a pastor with a degree in history) and personal experience (Dabbs grew up impoverished and a victim of racist ideology). They provide a nuanced and substantive conversation that focuses a lot on how the racist systems of the past live on in the background of life today. The argument that “That happened a long time ago” isn’t only incorrect from a factual standpoint (people alive today suffered through segregated schools and society) but it’s incorrect from the standpoint of how the past stays with us—both in our own selves and in our systems.
Further chapters talk about white privilege—what it is and isn’t—and how, especially in the South, history has been rewritten to downplay the role of slavery in the conflict. There’s a chapter on Christian nationalism and one on systemic racism. Not So Black and White dives into the fairly recent past to show how modern conflicts have precedents from previous generations. And through it all, Dabbs and Driver remain conversational, knowledgeable, and irenic.
Whenever I read a book like this, I see what could be. I’m not altogether convinced that we’ll get there. But if we do, it’ll be because of books like this, modeling the conversations and relationships we need to have to pursue justice.
One of the problems with the way evangelical Christianity tends to define racism is that it’s seen as something personal and individual—“We need heart change.” And while that’s not wrong, it ignores the way racism has worked its way into our systems and benefits those who “don’t have a racist bone in their body.” To correct this, a lot of secular antiracist ideology focuses on systemic change. And white evangelicals, long in power because of those systems, are loathe to see them go. So the fight begins between whether reform should be personal or systemic. Reggie Dabbs and John Driver have the answer—it’s both. And “we can’t wait for heart change to occur before we address unjust systems (p. 37).”
Not So Black and White provides a discussion of racism that’s steeped in history (Driver is a pastor with a degree in history) and personal experience (Dabbs grew up impoverished and a victim of racist ideology). They provide a nuanced and substantive conversation that focuses a lot on how the racist systems of the past live on in the background of life today. The argument that “That happened a long time ago” isn’t only incorrect from a factual standpoint (people alive today suffered through segregated schools and society) but it’s incorrect from the standpoint of how the past stays with us—both in our own selves and in our systems.
Further chapters talk about white privilege—what it is and isn’t—and how, especially in the South, history has been rewritten to downplay the role of slavery in the conflict. There’s a chapter on Christian nationalism and one on systemic racism. Not So Black and White dives into the fairly recent past to show how modern conflicts have precedents from previous generations. And through it all, Dabbs and Driver remain conversational, knowledgeable, and irenic.
Whenever I read a book like this, I see what could be. I’m not altogether convinced that we’ll get there. But if we do, it’ll be because of books like this, modeling the conversations and relationships we need to have to pursue justice.
January 31, 2022
Christian pastors and fellow Southerners Reggie Dabbs and John Driver have been friends for many years. While they have collaborated on writing projects before, co-authoring "Not So Black and White" is the first time either of them has written a book addressing racism in the Christian church in America. The result is a frank and honest dialogue between two men of faith (one Black, the other White) and their appeal to Christians to examine and reconcile their knee-jerk reactions to politicized terminology with the teachings of the Bible. Racism is incompatible with the gospel, and living a good Christian life requires action toward compassion, humility, and inclusivity.
Ideological and historical systems of racial injustice affect the nation and its systems, and the church continues to be complicit. In candid and simple language, Dabbs and Driver attempt to reclaim the conversation about racism from the typical conservative discourse that vilifies liberals and socialists. Demystifying “hot-button” terms such as systemic racism, social justice, and white privilege, the authors drive home the point that valuing Black lives should not be seen as a political issue.
There’s always an opportunity to listen to each other, regardless of political or theological leanings. Not So Black and White is an excellent read for anyone looking to bridge the gap between what the gospel says about equity and justice and current polarization concerning issues about race and racism in America.
This review was originally published in Seattle Book Review.
April 14, 2022
My AudioFile review:
NOT SO BLACK AND WHITE
An Invitation to Honest Conversations about Race and Faith
by Reggie Dabbs, John Driver | Read by Reggie Dabbs, John Driver
Philosophy & Religion • 8.5 hrs. • Unabridged • © 2021
Reggie Dabbs--a Black author, life coach, and motivational speaker-- and John Driver--a white minister, writer, and podcaster--who have been friends for years, here explore faith and race. Their back-and-forth conversation was sparked by the murder of George Floyd. Dabbs narrates with deliberation and forthrightness the ways racism has shaped, and continues to shape, his life. Driver speaks quickly, with conviction and sincerity born of his desire to understand his own role in perpetuating racism. They quote a wide range of contemporary Christian writers, speakers, and pastors, both Black and white. Definitely Christian in perspective, they believe that listening to those who have been victims of racism and being willing to change are our way out of racism. S.G. © AudioFile 2022, Portland, Maine [Published: APRIL 2022]
Digital Download • Zondervan • 2021
DD ISBN 9780310363439 $20.99
NOT SO BLACK AND WHITE
An Invitation to Honest Conversations about Race and Faith
by Reggie Dabbs, John Driver | Read by Reggie Dabbs, John Driver
Philosophy & Religion • 8.5 hrs. • Unabridged • © 2021
Reggie Dabbs--a Black author, life coach, and motivational speaker-- and John Driver--a white minister, writer, and podcaster--who have been friends for years, here explore faith and race. Their back-and-forth conversation was sparked by the murder of George Floyd. Dabbs narrates with deliberation and forthrightness the ways racism has shaped, and continues to shape, his life. Driver speaks quickly, with conviction and sincerity born of his desire to understand his own role in perpetuating racism. They quote a wide range of contemporary Christian writers, speakers, and pastors, both Black and white. Definitely Christian in perspective, they believe that listening to those who have been victims of racism and being willing to change are our way out of racism. S.G. © AudioFile 2022, Portland, Maine [Published: APRIL 2022]
Digital Download • Zondervan • 2021
DD ISBN 9780310363439 $20.99
January 7, 2025
I have had this book on my shelf for almost a year (or maybe a bit longer). Our church held a study of it and I was unable to attend but thought I might pick it up on my own later. I had an opportunity to meet John Driver after service one Sunday and listen to him discuss this book and his ongoing work on racial justice. This brief chat convinced me to give the book a try so I bought it.
Well, life moves on and I started it at least twice and got side-tracked by other reading, life events, and other issues. Finally, I committed myself to reading it last month and started plowing through it. I do mean plowing because sometimes I found it hard to read. This wasn't because I disagreed with the authors but because I needed to stop sometimes and ponder what they were saying. Phrases like "systemic racism" and "white privilege" were being unpacked and I needed to sit with them before moving on in the book.
It is a very good book and also a very challenging one. My goal now is to try to put what I've learned into practice or at least, start accepting that there is a lot more to learn.
Well, life moves on and I started it at least twice and got side-tracked by other reading, life events, and other issues. Finally, I committed myself to reading it last month and started plowing through it. I do mean plowing because sometimes I found it hard to read. This wasn't because I disagreed with the authors but because I needed to stop sometimes and ponder what they were saying. Phrases like "systemic racism" and "white privilege" were being unpacked and I needed to sit with them before moving on in the book.
It is a very good book and also a very challenging one. My goal now is to try to put what I've learned into practice or at least, start accepting that there is a lot more to learn.
June 14, 2022
If you’re ready to listen, this book can change how you view color and faith and the relationship that should bind those two together.
John Driver is able to speak on American history, culture, and how we’ve made it to this current point.
Reggie is able to share his personal stories and insights.
They both PREACH 👏🏼 I don’t know how many times I had an audible “Oooooo” and would rewind to hear the point again. At one point I was crying because I was convicted of ways that I’ve been treating my family.
To anyone saying that the book is one sided, I think you missed the point. The authors make several directions to the Bible and showing in real life and in word on social media how to react to either side in love and compassion. If you finish the book and are still thinking about “sides”, start the book over and listen again.
I will absolutely read this again and I don’t typically read books more than once. I think it’s a great addition to your library and one that you can return to when you need a refresher.
John Driver is able to speak on American history, culture, and how we’ve made it to this current point.
Reggie is able to share his personal stories and insights.
They both PREACH 👏🏼 I don’t know how many times I had an audible “Oooooo” and would rewind to hear the point again. At one point I was crying because I was convicted of ways that I’ve been treating my family.
To anyone saying that the book is one sided, I think you missed the point. The authors make several directions to the Bible and showing in real life and in word on social media how to react to either side in love and compassion. If you finish the book and are still thinking about “sides”, start the book over and listen again.
I will absolutely read this again and I don’t typically read books more than once. I think it’s a great addition to your library and one that you can return to when you need a refresher.
July 7, 2023
The most compelling reason for racial reconciliation is from a religious angle, and I found this book to be compelling. Being a white person, is tough to swallow some of the messages regarding white privilege contained in this book, as well as the author's attempt to discredit the "Lost Cause" mythology of the Civil War. Like many Americans, I have ancestors that fought for the Confederacy, as well as some who fought for the Union. It is difficult to sweep all thoughts of "heritage" away in the name of getting along. As the book says, the author's intent is not to make everyone comfortable, but to challenge them. "You are all sons of God through faith of Christ Jesus. For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." Galatians 3:26-28. Any criticism I could offer against this plain message would be quibbling, wrong and sinful. I recommend reading this book, and the Bible as well which is as relevant now as it ever was.
April 2, 2024
This book was on my shelf for way too long! Thank you Reggie Dabbs for the influence you've had on my life since my teen years. You were the reason I picked this book. It has challenged me, encouraged me, and showed me that change is possible for America. It's highlighted wrong thinking that is contrary to the Word of God, and how he calls us to live. It's exposed the manipulation, twisted words, and continual verbal damage that divides our nation and our history.
It's redirected my understanding back to the Word of truth, that we are called to reconcile and do so we cannot dismiss someone's experience, words, or actions. I am grateful for this book and the brave and candid way you both took on this challenge.
It's redirected my understanding back to the Word of truth, that we are called to reconcile and do so we cannot dismiss someone's experience, words, or actions. I am grateful for this book and the brave and candid way you both took on this challenge.
June 25, 2022
I first heard these authors together on #FortheLove Jen Hatmaker’s podcast (https://jenhatmaker.com/podcast/serie...
They are two friends discussing race, sharing their stories, giving a great understanding of the terms and history of racism, and rooting it all in the gospel and how we who call ourselves wa Jesus-followers should respond. “The system doesn’t have a heart, but you do, and Gos wants to change them both”
Highly recommend.
They are two friends discussing race, sharing their stories, giving a great understanding of the terms and history of racism, and rooting it all in the gospel and how we who call ourselves wa Jesus-followers should respond. “The system doesn’t have a heart, but you do, and Gos wants to change them both”
Highly recommend.
November 22, 2021
A conversational engagement with America's race challenge. Long-time friends Reggie and John delve into the complexity of American Black/white race issues, sharing stories from their respective pasts, teaching history (of the U.S. as well as the church), and pushing past simplistic answers and arguments. A good and challenging read.
(full disclosure: the agency of which I'm a partner represented Reggie and John on this book)
(full disclosure: the agency of which I'm a partner represented Reggie and John on this book)
January 19, 2022
This book was eye-opening for me. It really makes you examine your own heart and life to see what God may be showing you about your actions and beliefs toward race. I listen to John Driver's podcast weekly and he is consistent and true to his faith. Reggie is someone that seems to have such a great heart and kind attitude. I highly recommend this book! It will make you go deeper and come out changed.
March 5, 2022
Really good. If you’ve read The Color of Compromise, Divided by Faith, The New Jim Crow, or The Color of Law, a lot of this will be very familiar. The interplay between the authors is kinda cheesy at times, but it’s refreshing to see a book that’s not focused on what other camps are doing wrong, but tries to speak to those who would align closely with the authors in many ways.
December 21, 2022
Audiobook. Probably the most consequential book I’ve listened to this year. If you’re the sort of person who can’t handle having your views challenged or be willing to consider another perspective, then this book isn’t for you.
January 30, 2025
The authors take us on a journey through American history to modern day systemic racism. They point out hot button words and phrases and show how we can think differently about those phrases. They speak with humility and kindness as they encourage us to listen, learn, and lament. Highly recommend.
July 8, 2022
This book far exceeded my expectations. So thought-provoking. So real. So needed. Lots of underlining and rereading parts on this one.
April 23, 2024
This book brings out individual awareness of prejudices in each and everyone of. Some current body camera footage and facts brought out after the trials are different than the book.
October 12, 2025
I have read many books on racism. But this one takes the cake. It pastors someone from unbelief to belief in a super kind way. John and Reggie’s dynamic was so good.
Displaying 1 - 19 of 19 reviews