My actual feeling is 4.5 mostly because in reflection there's a slight missed opportunity for the piece to become a comparative piece. More would need to be done on the other side of the work. It's written from a slightly more US/western mindset, but it's not as unpalatably biased as many of its cohorts are.
First, Dexter Roberts did a great job on being factual and not overly biased one way or the other. For readers that need to get up to speed on Modern China, it is a challenge in 2019 with both countries posturing like mad. The book definitely does take a stand. And unfortunately, the title will tilt readers vs. allowing Roberts to convince them via making a cogent neutral argument for both. But... it likely sells more books given current Anti-China Sentiment. This is sad to me, b/c I don't think Dexter is Anti-China and truly hope the Chinese government doesn't misinterpret any parts of this piece in that fashion.
Chapter 1 is probably my least favorite and the only one I would take issue with. I believe he's trying to articulate the state of the Factory and their poor conditions. Where it sours for me has to do with the author's admitted strength of knowledge of the post-Deng period over the period that came before. I think a lot of the tilt of the chapter paints the period of Deng as an agricultural sort of life/society where workers didn't work in these large bohemeth factories via some sort of Oliver Twist/Charles Dickens view. That's just not true. The transition to factories was already mostly completed by the Gang of Four period at the end of Mao's life and was more or less the situation by the time of Deng. That's actually pretty easy to look up by just viewing the urban to rural population demographics that existed even in the late 90's when I was studying China, as it was one of the major issues at the time. As this is one of the major facets of how he then makes his argument on the chapter, the impact overall lessons of what he's saying.
From my perspective, the factories in 2000 period grew out of the Communes of the Mao period and were just as bad to potentially worse. Meaning, many of the infra of these buildings were exactly what was there during the Mao period, retooled. The 2000 period was for sure a transition in capital and so you started to see a mix of the buildings today and what was there before. For that reason, much of this portion misses the mark for me. I can't speak to Guizhou specifically, but I do think that for a lot of the East coast/Southern communes conditions were essentially flat relative to the Mao period. For example, my mom who lived both urban and also - as a part of the red guard - was sent to the Southern farm communes during the 1970s reforms always told me about what she was allowed as relates to personal space. It's only slightly less than what is described in this book. Additionally, I have been going back to China since 1980 and I saw the size of home plus the number of family members in a 200-300 sq foot space in urban Guangzhou. Also, I went to Uni in China in 1997 and saw the "luxurious" shared foreign student quarters of 75sq ft vs. the locals dorms of the time. Similarly, I did go to the nearby commune outside of Nanjing and it was about the same but with less infra than what he described. Hence, IMO, this is the only chapter that I personally struggled with it and its interpretations and conclusions, given how much of the population has been moved out of such conditions since 1970. It's not that I think those conditions are ok, so much as the fact this exists in a different way than it did in the pre-2000 period is actually an uptick, not a downtick as presented.
Chapter 2: The Family This might be better be entitled the Education system. It does a great job there, and misses the other issues IMO related to the family. I'd just as soon retitle it so as not to detract from great research. P. 39, there are stats on literacy. They are accurate to the reporting, but you gotta be careful on things like literacy from period of Mao and early Deng periods, where numbers could be deceiving. One of the biggest of which has to do with making your numbers, often modified by what constitutes literate (i.e. is it the 8000 characters common to college students or something else). Otherwise, the chapter brings up great points on both sides. P, 42 we talk about cost. In many countries in Asia, people do pay outright for education (ex: Indonesia). The cost in China is higher. Not sure if that is true income adjusted, but would have been happy to have some comparitive numbers. It misses it for me as it comes close to implying that education is free in the US. Actually, that cost is baked into property taxes, so property owners subsidize those that have not. The taxation concepts and systems are still newer in China, so it's not quite so straight forward. Otherwise, the chapter does a good job comparing the issues of China's urban/rural education, magnate schools vs. regular schools, to some that we face in a US context. It also highlights the challenge for those to advocate in China vs. the US. The penalties are quite a bit harsher in China b/c of how they see "unpatriotic activity" vs. the US.
Chapter 3 The Land If you struggle with 1-2, this chapter is where I turned the corner toward 5 stars. The transition of the land over the last 20 years is presented both with what was done, why it was done and how people feel about it. Minor issues for me. P. 79, sitting in their cramped apartments sets a tone that is kind of negative, though the farmer feels it's a great upgrade. Again, this might have to do with my own Mao and Deng periods experiences. P. 87, he ends with a point about elder age healthcare and childcare. Ironically, I'm dealing with similar issues in the US for my own parents who live in rural US. So in this regard, there is a comparableness, though I'm not clear if the author is trying to make it or just highlight its bad in the China.
Chapter 4: The Party Very well written. The focus on stability is very true. It's very hard to communicate the size of the population and its impact on the way the party thinks and how that plays out on a host of issues. The author does a decent job here.
Chapter 5: The Robots Great job. We have the same issue here in the US in the balance between increasing production, creating abundance, but transitioning the population for the automation that is inevitable. China has a different set of starting resources and problems, so this was a big deal for them. P. 133 he talks about the Trump comment that has Beijing quieting down on their 2025. In my head, it's interesting b/c China can do 10, 20, and 50 year plans, but the US can't. This is a really good discussion point for any strategist or biz leader. China will likely still make good on many of the 2025 plans. How the US will respond can't just be "no you won't" in words and little else in deeds. This is highlighted in the book, but lost in the US press IMO currently, even by Trump's Fox news fiercest supporters. Hence, thumbs up Roberts for being on it. Also, P. 136, good point to end the chapter on as food for thought (buy book to see what I mean).
Chapter 6: Going Home This is really a good Chapter for comparative politics and it's a good example of why I wish the author had gone farther. Still Roberts does an excellent job of presenting the facts. I feel we have that problem here in the US. And we can see it for what it is in China a bit more dispassionately. China has no idea how to solve the drain of people and talent from rural China. It's trying a few things. We are trying a few things. But we got ghost towns just like China and - if we are honest - healthcare, childcare is a mess urban vs rural. China's a little better on public transit and infra, which helps, but... you know.. this is a good chapter for those trying to figure out policy here. I like this chapter, but I wish the Author had been bolder to take a chance on a real comparative politics discussion.
Chapter 7: The Future Nice chapter. P. 170, I just read a book, where they seemed not to understand this concept that social media is monitored. Here we talk about it and how people behave. Nice. Additionally, he talks about the use of tech to help stabilize civic unrest. I really hope readers understand how different that is in China vs. the US and how essential it is in driving public and international policy. We dealt with this with a fraction of the size of population in the 60's and 70's so aggressively that we haven't had to meaningfully deal with it in over 50 years. Indeed, few realize how much the Chinese borrowed from the US efforts in the 70s after Tiananmen square and had their own initiatives at the Population College. A civic gathering in China is just not the same fear factor, danger, or potential issues as it is here. The implications though on privacy and personal liberty are real. But this chapter lays out why it matters ...
Epilogue Nice work in summarizing. I'm not 100% sure on the HK comment. It's a stretch on income disparity. I think those protests are more that China and the former British way of doing biz and lifestyle is so different and still struggling to integrate since the change over in 1997.
One other note to the editor or author... The book says that the author resided in China for 2 decades. In the intro P.xix, the writer says: "my arrival... long after Deng had died". Maybe modify the wording. Deng died in 1997 or 1-2 years before depending on who you ask. It's an interesting story. I'm not quite sure that's "long after" unless you're rounding up to 2 decades. Regardless, it's just a possible word modification that's required either on the jacket or in this chapter.
Overall, I would definitely recommend this book. It does inspire discourse, which is a great thing. I think it's highly relevant in the current period for understanding foreign policy. It additionally would be a good comparative politics book to how China solves problems vs. other countries and is that right or wrong. Also, it's far more well-rounded than competing modern literature on the topic.
Poorly structured in my view, ambiguous content that has a very light touch with the title -"Chinese Capitalism".
The largest part missed is China's commercial & business world, especially the penetration of authoritarian system into private sectors and government control in the business world.
The struggles between private & state-owned capital in market practice should be the core of "Chinese Capitalism", rather than the farmers and workers in the remote and poorest area.
Otherwise, this book should be given a different title - < What I saw and witnessed in China's poorest regions>
Roberts had been going to the poorest regions of inland China to actually talk to people there, who had always been poor and under-educated, who used to go to the coastal cities to provide cheap manufacturing labour. He is fluent in Mandarin and so could talk to the people directly.
So under the unfair hukou system, one is always registered where one was born. All benefits such as education, housing and medical treatment are tied to one’s hukou. When the migrant workers work in factories in the coastal cities, they have no rights or benefits. Their children cannot enter public schools, so they spend their primary life in lousy private schools in the cities, and have to go back to the countryside for secondary schools and beyond. This they often stay with their grandparents and not parents.
The hukou system will not be changed. Automation is happening fast and coastal Chinese labour is becoming too expensive. So new factories and data centres are being built more and more inland. Migrant workers are encouraged to go home. Highways and high speed rails have been built.
Funny thing is, despite all these, Roberts is pessimistic about China. He believes that it will have the same fate as the old Soviet Union. Despite describing many improvements of the poor country folks over the years, he thinks China’s economy cannot keep growing. This greatly puzzles me because China’s foreign direct investment in Singapore has increased 10% per year over the past 10 years. It is still less than what other countries are investing, but lots of our houses and new railways are built by Chinese companies. China is also Singapore’s top trading partner.
You might expect a book titled The Myth of Chinese Capitalism written by a longtime Businessweek journalist to be a numbers-driven analysis of economic policy, labor, and manufacturing in the People’s Republic. While author Dexter Roberts does touch on these topics, his primary focus is on people, not statistics, and those people are the ones laboring at the bottom of the country’s manufacturing sector. “I hadn’t come to China to write about Harvard-educated MBAs, former McKinsey consultants, tapping VC money to fund internet start-ups in China. That, in fact, completely bored me,” Roberts explains early on. His interest is in the migrant workers who have left their rural homes in the country’s interior and ventured to the factories along China’s southern coastline. Between the mid-1990s, when Roberts first arrived as a foreign correspondent, and the mid-2010s, those migrants helped propel an export-driven explosion of economic growth that made China the story of the early 21st century.
The years of double-digit expansion are in the past, however, and much of The Myth of Chinese Capitalism explores how both the Chinese Communist Party and the Chinese workforce will adapt to a new economic landscape. Roberts uses the Mo family of Guizhou—one of China’s poorest provinces—as a jumping-off point for many of his discussions. After first meeting some members of the family at the turn of the century, he made periodic contact with them and traces changes in their fortunes to illustrate larger points about the promises and limitations of China’s economic reforms.
The CCP has pledged to transform the PRC into a “moderately prosperous” society by 2021 (the hundredth anniversary of the Party’s founding) and seeks to promote future economic growth through consumer spending and the service sector. But the migrant workers who powered the first two decades of China’s economic rise can’t easily make this transition: the household registration (hukou) system ties them to the countryside by preventing them from accessing social services in cities; a high savings rate, necessary due to the lack of adequate health insurance and retirement plans, makes them conservative consumers; and the limitations of rural education make it unlikely that many in the next generation will be adequately prepared for the high-tech “innovation” economy desired by the country’s leadership. Migrant workers might have believed that their toils would yield a better lot in life—if not for them, for their children—but structural constraints held in place by the CCP impose a limit on upward mobility.
The Myth of Chinese Capitalism is a useful update to previous books about China’s migrant workforce, and would especially complement Factory Girls: From Village to City in a Changing China (2008), by Leslie T. Chang. Because Roberts only drops in on the large Mo family from time to time (rather than focusing the narrative on their story), it can be difficult to remember their names and occupations from one anecdote to the next (though there is a list of dramatis personae in the front matter to mitigate this issue; I read an electronic galley in which flipping back and forth was annoying). In The Myth of Chinese Capitalism, Roberts has produced an interesting and thorough overview of China’s economic growth, in which he directs the reader’s attention not on numbers but the lives of people working toward an ever-elusive promise of “moderate prosperity.”
Lots of repetition and re-re-introducing events/places/persons which could have been easily avoided through some stricter editing. Clumsy writing and few if any novel insights to anyone who knows a little bit about Chinese society and its economy. The book balances between being a personal, journalistic account of experiences interviewing Chinese people, sometimes dedicating one or two paragraphs to describing a setting but then failing to actually draw anything meaningful from the interview/experience itself, and a scholarly examination of the threat to China's economic and political stability. Most importantly, a vast amount of the interviews took place in the early 2000s, making its relevance to the present and near future questionable to a society that has massively changed since. It seems the author decided to string some interviews done in the past together and tie the whole thing up in the final chapter, which provided a mildly interesting review of the current economic challenges facing Beijing.
There are some interesting insights into the shifting terrain of China in this book, but it’s fundamentally liberal in its understanding of Chinese politics. The author, a Bloomberg journalist, can’t help but interject with musings on “authoritarianism” through the proceedings, however small; the same goes for the need to “liberalize” (i.e. privatize I.e. make capitalist) the economy further. He does acknowledge the good that the CPC has done in the grand narrative, but ultimately plays against them in the same, after all being a book about the problems that have arisen in the era of reform and opening up.
My biggest issue with the book is how he bounces around in the narrative without much sense of the political mood of each era, referencing interviews from people in the early 2000s while talking about issues that face the Party and country in 2017; this occurs quite commonly throughout the book and is clearly meant to establish a narrative about the CPC.
Really good jump off point into the history of capitalism in China covering Political, economic and social consequences of the re-installation of capitalism
Really enjoyed reading this fast-paced and interesting book. Roberts is a journalist, which means that his prose is accessible and clear, and that his study leans in an anecdotal direction. I.e., this is not a deep or academic meditation on the Chinese political-economy. Then again, it's not without some careful consideration of political and economic trends in the PRC since the reform age dawned in 1978.
Roberts' thesis is more/less that China is at risk of falling into the middle-income-trap, in which a country's economy grows, thanks to its cheap labour force and associated amenities. But once wages begin to rise (and Roberts gives a few reasons for this in China), the country is no longer as desirable for manufacturing. Transitioning to another kind of economy would require massive strides in education and other investments in "human capital," but those are not happening in China, which has a terrible educational system.
Roberts' strength is in taking us to the working-class Chinese folks impacted by this brutal economic system. Through Roberts we meet the left-behind schoolchildren, whose migrant parents toil in a distant city. Through Roberts we meet those migrant workers and travel to their rural villages. We hear their thoughts about their work, nation, families, and futures.
Roberts helps us to encounter the real people who, but the 100s of millions, make up the Chinese working class. We smell their cigarettes, watch their tea poured, and stare at propaganda posters peeling off roadside walls. We see in Roberts the juxtaposition of these modernist slogans with the more bleak lives of ordinary people.
It's not all bad, of course: Roberts is not trying to tell us that China is a miserable country. Not at all. We also hear people joke and see children play. But his point is that China's bottom billion don't have much of a chance at upward mobility, unless the economy takes a new turn.
But it isn't at all clear, Roberts shows, that the PRC government will make changes to uplift the teeming lower classes. Roberts writes of disgruntled migrants moving back to rural areas: it's a fascinating trend. Will it mean labour-shortages in SE China? Or will manufacturing shift inland? Meanwhile, labour-saving robotics (a fascinating chapter in this book) loom large, even as many manufacturers are looking to move towards Southeast Asia.
Roberts missed the chance to address other problems with an economic model that may be past its prime. He might have featured demographic issues, such as the aging population. This older China offers less labour and higher demand for state services; twin pincers for a country that has exploited young labour for decades. And how is settler-colonialism in Western China figuring into these plans for the future? Will the Belt and Road Initiative (BRI) help create neo-colonial dependencies to exploit? Roberts hints at the elephant in the room: the Party has become a creature of elites. It is a party of cronyism and corruption, a party that works hard to keep affluent Chinese happy. Can it then be expected to engage in the tax policies, spending, and investments that China needs? Will Chinese elites pay for badly needed investments in human capital? Or will they burrow into their own wealth as the country's economy is trapped, and as the nation's masses grow increasingly discontent?
Not a bad book, especially because the author spends an extended amount of time in Guizhou, a province which we really don't see much reporting from, but not really sure who the readership would be, as most casual readers wouldn't bother to pick it up, but wannabe "China watchers" won't find much new in it.
A very detailed research book on China's economy and its future. With plenty of natural resources and obedient nationals, China should have a great prospect and potential if not ruled by present illiterate, irrational but arrogant party.
"The Myth of Chinese Capitalism" offers excellent insight into the Chinese economy that will expand the knowledge and understanding of Americans and others who are not familiar with how China has transitioned from Communism to a capitalist economy.
The title suggests that this book has an overarching narrative, but it is more a series of anecdotes that reveal that the Chinese economy is as flawed as the economy of any other country. A better title for this book would have been "The Myth of Capitalism" or "The Reality of Chinese Capitalism." That China sees resentment between rural and urban families, has deeply rooted public corruption, and great inequality does not suggest that China is unlike capitalism elsewhere, but that it is perhaps more alike than we are often willing to admit. Roberts does an excellent job describing the uniquely Chinese characteristics of its economic system, namely the system of family registries that systematically imposes unique challenges on internal migrants, such as parents compelled to leave their children behind in rural villages to attend school as the parents earn a living for their families in the cities. Of course, other countries also have their unique characteristics that highlight the failure of public officials to acknowledge and address the dilemmas and paradoxes that face their societies.
Roberts, unfortunately, does not take the opportunity to draw out some conclusions from his writing. Considering that China is a one-party state, does Roberts think that the problems he witnessed will risk undermining the government, or will the government successfully navigate the problems of its immature capitalist economy? Has capitalism in China truly made people better off, or will China's economy become even stronger, maintaining high growth, if it sheds the inefficiencies highlighted by Roberts?
Roberts book gives the reader much to think about. Although it does not live up to its ambitions and leaves the serious and obvious questions it raises largely unaddressed, it is an excellent piece of journalism that highlights that China is not unlike other countries in facing economic challenges and increasing the well-being of its citizens.
Interesting book about the Life of Chinese workers, how their position has changed over time and the challenges they face. Not really too much new ground for anyone already familiar with the houkou residence system, but does add a human face to much of what has been previously reported.
The books publisher’s again take the concept of not judging a book by its cover to new lengths - there is actually very little about any myths of Chinese capitalism and virtually nothing on how what is happening in China will impact the rest of the world.
The book is broken into chapters which look at various aspects of workers lives although much of the focus is on the impact of the humor system in one form or another. The author uses cases from a small village in guizhou that he has visited often and examines the impact of firstly emigration to coastal cities on the community and those left behind and then the return of workers and industries. Much of the material comes from early in the writer’s over twenty years in China, it is not always obvious from the writing though, exactly which period of time the events referred to are occurring in.
In some ways heartbreaking at the difficulty of the lives that Chinese workers live and the hardships they face, there are shards of optimism about the improvements in living standards that have been achieved, but equally these are balanced by concerns over what will happen to the workers of the future as robotisation takes hold and workers are pushed into low-level service jobs such as food delivery workers.
The Myth of Chinese Capitalism, dedicated to "the migrant workers of China and their families", is an illuminating read in these times. Through a series of vignettes, Roberts chronicles the "rocket ship" like journey of China's peasant and migrant populations through decades of growth - economic, environmental and social - achieved at all costs. His on the ground observations, beginning in 1995 and taking readers to the present day, highlights both the vulnerabilities and resilience of a people who found themselves with seats on the ride of a lifetime, a ride that may be slowing just as many are starting to wonder: "is it as good for me as it was for you?" How individuals and society will internalize and construct upon the answers to this question, he suggests, will be critical to a future in which continued reforms (to address issues including unfairness, inequality, sustainability) could be dominated by more robots, rules, and a certain type of rhetoric. Capitalism in China may be a myth, Roberts suggests, but the commitment of the Chinese Community Party to transforming China into a "modern socialist country" remains resolute.
For those interested in reflections on similar themes, from an more urban perspective, Age of Ambition: Chasing Fortune, Truth and Faith in the New China by Evan Osnos is a highly complementary read.
Roberts' deep sympathy for the children of migrant laborers gives life to this book.
I was a Peace Corps volunteer in Bijie, Guizhou until February of this year. Bijie, often considered the poorest place in Guizhou, is mentioned twice in his book; the asphyxiation of five cousins, killed by a charcoal fire while left alone by parents working in Shenzhen, and the suicide of four children in a similar situation.
This book draws attention to these children's schooling conditions: the crowding, the overwhelmed staff, the punishments meted out to those who dare to say its wrong. Many of my students at Guizhou University of Engineering Science made the same migrant shuffle he describes, a childhood with grandparents in the countryside, elementary school in Fujian or Guangdong, middle and high school back in the village. For those who ask me, what was Guizhou like? this book will be a recommendation for those who are willing to read.
I only wish that I had met him during this reporting trips to the province, I'd have liked to introduce him to some interesting people in Bijie.
This entire review has been hidden because of spoilers.
The Myth of Chinese Capitalism: The Worker, the Factory, and the Future of the World by Dexter Tiff Roberts is part investigatory journalism, part professional travelog, part economic survey. Through his own eyes and his experience in China (such as in Guizhou), Roberts explores recent historical patterns in China's economy and business practices. Its a bit too anecdotal and inductive to live up to the title of the book, but the overall picture Roberts weaves through his words is one worth entertaining. There are pressures facing China's industry, and there are real cracks beneath the veneer of boundless, optimistic growth. Given recent trends, some of this work will come across as prescient. Even so, I'm not sure that this book will be on that endures. In four or five years, I imagine only niche readers, voracious wonks, and researchers will give this a read.
This is a meticulously researched book with a focus on the working poor of the poorer parts of China. Not as fact and figures focused as I expected but rather a focus on telling the stories of the Chinese people. In particular I enjoyed the descriptions of how unions are systematically suppressed by the CCP and also how western companies are partly responsible for the working conditions in the Chinese factories as they built policies for keeping their brand out of trouble instead of building more sustainable industry wide solutions. Recommended to readers who are not already familiar with the great disparity between different people in China.
An easily accessible survey of the economic forces at work in - and the most pressing issues faced by - contemporary Chinese society. If you have been hearing a lot of tidbits of seemingly unconnected information about China in the press (e-commerce, surveillance, middle-income trap, manufacturing, labour etc.) but couldn't really see the whole picture like myself, this book is perfect! Most chapters also give us a glimpse into the individual lives of China's poorest through the authors personal encounters with migrant workers and struggling village folk, which lends a much more empathetic air to the entire discussion than one hears from economist and pundits.
Chinese capitalism is kind-of an oxymoron! I've looked at it through the lens of how forward thinking the Chinese leaders were to navigate modern life and economics in a way to keep them in power, as opposed to the "fall" of the Soviet Union. This helped me understand it a lot better--how the government still has their fist hanging over how business is allowed to exist. It also helped me understand the rural/urban divide and where and why poverty and access to education exists the way it does. Finally, it also helped me understand their internal migration. It was a bit of a slog.
This book was a hard read, and yet another skewed perspective on China from a very pro-western perspective. It uses recycled theories by other anti-China authors and mainstream media from decades ago about how the Chinese economy is unsustainable, and essentially indirectly saying, its going to fail.
Yet here we see it today, in real time, every talking point/ argument in this book proven wrong. The proof is in the pudding. Advise to China skeptics who consume this type of material?
Dry and dense is a bad combination. I give myself a medal for finishing! But if you are interested in the general topic of Chinese society stability, and specifically the tensions between the rural and urban communities, then perhaps you too will medal!
Glass half full, book is very insightful and is a helpful reminder that China - pre-ordained world economic champion of the 21st century and beyond - has -PLENTY of challenges of their own on the immediate horizon.
Just like the Western world has for decades outsourced its industry to China in search of lower costs, Dexter Tiffs shows in the book how China itself outsourced its economic growth, industrious and labor-intensive to the migrants from the rural parts of China while perpetuating a discriminatory system in how they work and are treated while working in the big factory-cities of the Coast. A system about to break for good.
Defining the "Myth" eludes Roberts. The book slips into common generalities about China without ever coming to grip with any detail.
The issues presented are real enough but discussion is often confusing as Roberts struggles to keep the chronology clear given frequent policy changes by the government.
This book is great cause the author talked to many people in China and has his own obervations / judgements, at least worth reading.
However, China is too complicated to be summarized in 300 pages, the typical problem of "China Watcher" is they cannot tell a good enough story as a whole. But at least you can learn something from it.
I’d really give this a 4.5. It could have been a little shorter. I wish I soulless have read this before visiting China. It explains a lot of what I saw. I highly recommend this as it explains the Chinese economic policy.
Absolutely wonderful Read. Certainly would like to read more of Dexter Roberts…..
According to this book, there is lot of Onus on India. It would be interesting as to how India shapes up to the opportunity. As of now, the opportunity seems to be slipping away…..
Well-written I suppose, but it tries to make an anecdotal, hypothetical argument against an empirical present and past. Maybe it will age better in time with many of its arguments proving true, but we're still a ways away from the China Roberts depicted.