From acclaimed writer Margot Peters comes the first, completely authorized biography of novelist, poet, and feminist May Sarton. Granted unprecedented access to personal papers and diaries, Peters gives us a compelling look at the woman who influenced a legion of readers with rich and intimate writings, and reveals the fascinating life that Sarton herself kept hidden.
Beginning with a young Sarton largely ignored by her parents, Peters traces the compulsive quest for recognition and artistic inspiration that would characterize most of Sarton's life. We witness her at nineteen as she chooses a life in the theater, only to discover later her real passion: writing. As her literary career takes shape, we watch her personal and professional struggles for acceptance, her intense relationships with such learned friends as Muriel Rukeyser and Louise Bogan, and her secret turmoil over her sexuality. But ultimately, we see Sarton begin to create in her works the image of a strong, independent woman who lived peacefully with solitude--an image that often contradicted the reality of her life.
I first came to May Sarton through her journals, starting with Journal of a Solitude in March 2014, and have since read seven of the journals, an additional autobiographical work, the collected poems, and four novels. This authorized biography is still the only full-length one out there on Sarton, so I was eager to read it even though I’d encountered some negativity about it online. Peters is seen by some as unnecessarily negative. It’s true that she ultimately decides Sarton wasn’t a great writer, and was also a pretty difficult person: needy, selfish, impulsive, jealous, and so on. She made sure Sarton knew that this was going to be a “warts and all” account; she even closes the prologue by issuing an imagined reader warning: “THIS BIOGRAPHY STRONG MEDICINE. NOT TO BE TAKEN INTERNALLY BY SARTON FANS.”
But I think this biography is a necessary corrective to the myths that Sarton created around herself through her autobiographical writing. For one thing, from reading the journals you’d have no idea that Sarton was so promiscuous and had such seductive power. She can make it sound like it was only ever Judy in her life, and if Judy wasn’t with her she was pining away alone in Nelson or York. Au contraire: she had a whole string of lovers – most of them older women; many of them previously heterosexual. The Muses for her poetry could be unrequited crushes (Wellesley’s president, her psychiatrist) or long-term lovers (a Harvard anthropology professor, a Belgian baroness), but there was always someone in her sights to inspire the passionate language of her poems and letters. Elizabeth Bowen and Juliette Huxley are two of her more famous lovers.
Peters traces much of Sarton’s bad behavior back to her childhood, when separations from her parents and a lack of demonstrated affection made her cling to role models, especially female ones, and fueled her guilt and hot temper. She lived a lavish lifestyle – especially in the later years, it’s oysters and champagne at every turn – and her father considered her irresponsible; she often had to borrow money from friends to fund her self-indulgences. By the peak of her career, when she was publishing two books a year and collecting $100,000 in annual royalties, she still struggled with money because she gave such extravagant gifts to her friends, as if she felt she needed to buy their continuing loyalty. Also, as many mutual friends agreed, she treated Judy abominably.
While Peters is very astute on Sarton’s character (“She had very early developed a kind of emotional promiscuity, the ability to attach herself immediately to anybody who was kind”; “Profoundly insecure, she needed endless validation of her existence. But she also needed to conquer”), there are points where she does seem too critical, e.g. “She was almost totally self-absorbed” and “May suffered because she wasn’t the center of attention”. She also judges the later poetry and novels rather harshly: “Suddenly not poetry but banality … How can Sarton be so careless, so lazy as to let that or the equally hackneyed ‘Melt itself through me like a healing balm’ stand?”
Her beef with Sarton’s long-time publisher, W.W. Norton, seems justified, however: she thinks that in their eagerness to keep milking their cash cow (Sarton was quite the fan favorite from the late 1960s onwards) they did her work a disservice, accepting the mediocrity that inevitably resulted from rushing two books into publication per year and not editing her enough, especially the later journals that she dictated onto tapes when she was increasingly unwell and could no longer sit at a desk to write.
Before reading the biography I felt like I already knew a fair bit about Sarton’s life up until her early twenties through I Knew a Phoenix and from about age sixty onward through her journals, but of course this fills in the picture, spotting patterns and making generalizations. I particularly valued • the psychological insight into the origins of Sarton’s personality, especially her more problematic traits; along with the observations that she was always both European and American, and that she always stood outside the lesbian community; • the discussion of a central paradox of Sarton’s life: her need for solitude versus her drive to surround herself with adulatory friends and fans – she fed on both, but when she had lots of company she’d complain about not having the time and quiet to work; when people left her alone she’d feel slighted and sulk (Peters: “well, May was nothing if not a paradox”); • the general information on themes and scenarios in Sarton’s novels, since I’ve only read four and will probably not easily find, or be bothered with, a number of the remaining 15. In short, she says characters and dialogue, through which ideas and emotions are expressed, are more important than plot, and that major characters and events are often based on people of her own acquaintance, or real-life incidents she heard about. The ones I will attempt to read are The Bridge of Years, Faithful Are the Wounds, A Shower of Summer Days (her best novel, in Peters’s view), and The Education of Harriet Hatfield; • the exploration of Sarton’s role as a guru to the feminist movement, lesbians, and the elderly, sometimes in spite of herself, and sometimes leading to awkward situations of fans turning up at her door and her angrily shooing them away; • the details about Sarton’s own judgment of her work: she deemed herself to be foremost a poet, and so was distressed when her poetry didn’t get the attention she felt it deserved; she confessed to friends her fears “that I am mediocre and never will be anything else” (to Kay Martin) and “that I am second-rate, not quite ‘the real thing’” (to “Dinah,” one of the late Muses).
Peters would probably agree with that final self-assessment overall, though she spent years interviewing and writing about this woman, so she must have felt there was something worthwhile about her work (their personal friction might have had something to do with her cool overall response). She sums up Sarton’s importance in her final paragraph: “May Sarton will never be considered a great writer. But she is that equally rare phenomenon, an appealing writer whose work has the power to change readers’ lives.” Simultaneously mean and generous, I guess.
Biographies are huge undertakings for me, so I rarely manage more than one a year. This one took me over a year to read in total, though that included a gap of many months somewhere in the middle there when I left it on a shelf unopened. Overall, I found it very rewarding, but for fans I’d say it’s best to also be reading something by Sarton at the same time to counterbalance the pessimism and remind yourself why you’ve come to love this writer’s voice so much. Nothing about Peters’s writing itself commends itself to me, so I probably wouldn’t pick up another of her biographies unless the subject appealed.
A favorite passage, from Peters’s description of Sarton at 17: “fired with passion, ardor, and idealism, alive in every atom of her being. She radiated energy and love of life. And she was burningly ambitious.”
What an odd experience to read a biography written by someone who seemed disdainful of and condescending toward her subject. Peters didn't even seem to like Sarton's writing. I think this could have been a much better book if written by someone who appreciated Sarton because of, or in spite of, her prickly personality--or at least someone who could celebrate Sarton's literary accomplishments.
If you've read her series of journals, this one pretty much de-bunks the "Myth of May"; I divide her life into "pre" and "post" Judy (Peters makes clear that there wasn't really a whole lot of "ongoing Judy"). First half for me wasn't as interesting, detailing May's "social climbing"; with the possible exception of Eva Le Gallienne, the rest of her celebs meant nothing to me. Foreshadows May's predatory nature, along with background of her dysfunctional childhood. For the second part, I'm assuming readers are familiar with her journals, and I'll try to keep spoilers to an absolute minimum ... Point #1: May and Judy were a "couple" briefly (if really at all), May's continuous displays of "concern" in the journals notwithstanding, I'd chalk her efforts at "including" Judy up to guilt. (Same holds true for her "dear" Eleanor Blair, whom she used and discarded by the time the journals really got going.) Point #2: I read Plant Dreaming Deep (essays on Nelson) after the many daily journals. From that book, one would assume that May stayed chugging away at her writing day-after-day in Nelson during that period. Actually, she was there well under half the time, and carried out several (torrid) affais. Point #3: Journal of a Solitude is the story of a middle-aged writer in rural NH, devoted to her animals and garden. May expresses a desire to move on from that location, her new home in Maine coming into play by the end of the book. Behind-the-scenes her life would've made a National Enquirer editor sit up and take notice! The townsfolk by then were relieved to be free of the drama. Point #4: Regarding her time in Maine as a whole -- it's hardly surprising her intestines acted up constantly, and her heart gave out, those "drinks" to which she refers were often doubles, and several at a go! Her personal life continued at a fevered pitch; several of the "friends" mentions are either women hopelessly attracted to her (whom she enjoyed using) or ones she went after. One point I was hoping would be clarified: the role of her "protege" Susan - victim or predator? Peters gives evidence of both. Peters makes a reasonable case that Norton eventually stopped editing altogether, shoving the submitted "final draft" straight into bookstores to meet deadlines, figuring her fans would buy anything by May Sarton, as long the stuff kept appearing. May does come to understand by the end that they were doing her no favors in the long run, royalties or not. To some fans all these salacious details are un-necessary, if downright mean. However, May made quite a bit of money portraying herself as a kindly, concerned old(er) lady; true in a sense, as she could be quite generous with her money, and helpful to some admirers. Almost every single person figuring in her journals in a positive (or neutral) light came to realize how "expendable" they really were in her eyes; she'd led them into a false sense of security, though most were well aware of how other "friends" had fared. Towards the end, Peters quotes a reader of the journals: "May Sarton - lobsters and loneliness, diverticulitis and champagne." And here I thought it was only me!
I enjoyed this book on two levels. First, after a year of not being able to finish a book because of a lack of concentration, I did! Maybe it was my old pal May and reading about her after having read most of her journals and novels and poems. And it was fascinating to have some blanks filled in May's life. Peters ndescribes May's lonely childhood being sent from family to family while her older parents engaged in their own lives and links this loneliness with the multiple lovers (dozens, often several at the same time!) and deep lack of self-love. This makes sense to me and it was helpful to read this account which seems to reflect May's own understanding of her life and loves. But in the end, the book isn't written that well, seems to want to present May's life as a series of betrayals and scandals, which it may well have been, but as some critics have said, the author doesn't seem to come from a position of appreciation and maybe that's what is detracting. If May did approve this biographer's work, if not this biography in particular since she died before it came out, I'll assume she had intimate contact with her. Maybe, in the end, I'm disappointed in May for not growing up and still struggling in her seventies with the same old issues in her twenties. But then, maybe it hits on my own disappointment with myself. Lots to consider. I only recommend this to fans of May Sarton. If you aren't, you'll end up being disgusted with her. If you are, you'll end up being compassionate with her. A highly flawed human being, a regular sort of writer, her specialty lying in her determination and focus that went way beyond any strength I have in those areas.
If you enjoy May Sarton's novels and journals, don't read this biography.
It's possible this was more anti-Sarton then it needed to be. The portrait of Sarton that emerges is one of a truly awful person. Judging by some of the primary sources quoted, it seems the author can certainly make that case. The drumbeat of Sarton's supposed awfulness reaches almost cartoon villain levels. By the end of the book, Peters has you believing that the only people who liked Sarton were her fans who never met her. And even those fans were idiots for liking her because most of her books were awful, or so Peters, and apparently the New York Times, would have you believe.
Published two years after Sarton's death in 1995, Peters wonders if Sarton's books will have any appeal in the successive decades, and avers that "May Sarton will never be considered a great writer." As a big fan of Sarton's novels and journals I will admit I have come across one or two that seemed less than what they should have been (Anger for one), but overall I find her work compelling and, for me, utterly enjoyable. I didn't read my first Sarton until about 12 years after her death and was absolutely charmed by it and began to steadily work my way through her catalog. I'm perfectly happy to go on reading her and believing in the myth of May Sarton.
Oh, I loved this. Actually, I truly love all biographies of women writers but I'm on a Sarton roll at the minute. This time four months ago I had never heard of her until she 'popped up' in 'Blind Assassins', an anthology of diary entries. Finding myself immediately hooked, I ordered a couple of her journals and fairly galloped through them. In reading them, I had sort of guessed that Sarton wasn't a perfect human being and, therefore, didn't mind this 'warts, warts and more warts' biography. I loved Peters writing style while her research and structure is impeccable. It was just a fascinating and compelling read about a writer who never stopped writing ... and raging ... and crying ... and living. (Oh, but i wanted to hear more about Susan and Peters ...!!) I just hope that it doesn't affect my reading of the two Sarton journals still waiting to be read. But I don't think it will. And I'll definitely be reading more biographies from Peters.
I loved the fictionalized May Sarton, as many did. This book gives unapologetic insight into the troubled, narcissistic, selfish woman who lived and seduced and loved carelessly "By the Sea" out of desperation... to survive, to write, to thrive, never to live her own autonomous life free from the chains of her tormented chidhood.
I purchased a used copy of May Sarton: A Biography by Margot Peters online after reading about it in reviews of May Sarton’s journals. I recently reread my three favorite May Sarton journals: Plant Dreaming Deep, Journal of Solitude, and House by the Sea. Peters’ Sarton biography, which was sanctioned by May Sarton, was mentioned several times in reviews of Sarton’s journals and I thought it might fill in some of the blanks left when reading her early journals, especially Journal of Solitude. It did fill in the blanks, and somewhat shattered the myth that Sarton created about her life in her journals, especially Plant Dreaming Deep.
It appears that poetry was the main focus of Sarton’s writing. She held a lot of frustration and anger because her poetry was never accepted or acknowledged by any of her contemporaries. I have to agree with them. Even though I love poetry, I am not a fan of Sarton’s. I think it’s overly sentimental and, basically, not very well written. I think it’s sad that Sarton devoted her life to something that she did not do very well, while discounting her journals and just pushing them out to make money.
The biography left me with a totally different picture of May Sarton, who in reality was a very dysfunctional, sexual predator and a narcissistic, possibly alcoholic woman. I’m glad that I read Peters’ biography of Sarton because it did explain a lot. At the same time, I remain a big fan of the Plant Dreaming Deep/Nelson, NH myth created by Sarton. I love her descriptions of her life, gardens and the people of Nelson. She didn’t appreciate the fact that I, as well as many others, felt like she was an intimate friend after reading her journals. That does not lessen the experience or the joy of reading and rereading the journals for me. It points out what a creative writer Sarton was, as her journals were loosely based on reality. She created a wonderful myth that has outlived her and probably will continue to inspire readers for many years to come.
Peters' biography of May Sarton is as intriguing as her bio of Charlotte Bronte, "Unquiet Soul." Not until the middle of the book does she analyze the psychological forces provoking Sarton's obsessions with other women, her violent temper and selfish injustices toward those who do not respond to her emotions or her writing as she demands. The contrast between her journals and her real life presents the reader's dilemma of which to believe is the real May. Yet she had dozens of friends who stuck with her, sometimes importuned her and sometimes distanced themselves as they realized she had used them. Peters calls her both passionate and aloof, not human. She could be very generous, yet critical and petulant, easily angered, demanding attention that she didn't receive in balanced quantity from her self-centered, self-absorbed father and self-abnegating mother. Nevertheless, Sarton's journals are inspiring, and I suspect a reader should judge the writer by the writings, which often express the more high-minded ideas than the life itself as with so many writers whose work we love, but whose person would be very disappointing.
I enjoyed it more as I got into it. There seemed to be more details about her love affairs later in the book. When she lived in Europe, she had some interesting experiences but there was a sameness to them. I could have stopped reading somewhere in the middle and it wouldn't have bothered me much because it became a morass of affairs, travel, and writing. Nothing that really stood out. After she came to America, there were more details about conflicts in her romances, for example. The story becomes more dramatic.
Peters didn't cut Sarton much slack at all. It didn't appear that she liked Sarton very much. She puts a negative spin on almost everything in regard to Sarton. It reads very much like an unauthorized biography--not quite as bad as Kitty Kelley but not an uplifting story. I did tend to believe Peters. But as I like May Sarton, nothing Peters wrote will really change my mind. I still thoroughly enjoy Sarton's journals. I'm going to read one of her novels. I'm glad I read the biography because I'm very curious about people and, as a rule, people who struggle with personal demons are more interesting to me than saintly people whose sins are few and far between.
this book was marred by incredibly flat footed writing and would have benefitted tremendously from at least some analysis of Sarton's work. Instead it read like a cranky who's who of Sarton's beleaguered bedroom. Peters apparently could not stop herself from using cliches from pop psychology to skewer her subject. Luckily, Sarton herself presents as such a dynamo, I couldn't quite abandon the bio altogether.
I had, before reading this book, read All of Sarton's journals. Her self-portrait doesn't resemble the subject of this biography, which makes this all the more impressive, as Peters had the full cooperation of Sarton. Excellent biography.
~I write because I must. That's the only way anyone's going to become a published writer.~
~Perhaps the woman's liberation movement will make it possible for others to be literary creators...We need to hear from women who are [wives and mothers]. And the first task is to make the kind of love women feel for each other clear. Because women have something to give each other which very rarely men can give. Not necessarily sexual, but a love and a trust. Feeling. Americans are terribly afraid of feelings...That's why men hate women poets; women's feelings make them squirm.~
~To me rest and poetry are the same thing, they merge into each other for it is poetry which taught me to rest.~
~May confused art with healing because writing poems kept her sane.~
~May could fictionalize herself readily as a male because society equated the qualities she saw in herself––energy, will, aggression, anger, and, above all, creativity--with maleness, a judgement most women still accepted.~
The inspirational May Sarton of her essays and journals is in direct contrast to the May Sarton who struggled with her life, violent mood swings, promiscuity, endless need for attention and action. Margot Peters only hints with May's words of bouts of depression, though May herself recognized that the the crescendoes of her obsessive loves, alienating anger and indifference to hurting friends who valued her were pathological and sought psychiatric help. We must forgive her, however, her frailties, because she truly FELT all that she put into her work. She "thought" the feelings deeply, inside herself, and wrote them in such a way that so many of us could relate to. In real life, she was unable to live the loud volume of her words. She was just noise, unable to control her life, the people around her and to experience love as transcendent as that she imagined and felt in her writing.
Margot Peters gives us a clear and detailed picture of May; she is not a wonderful woman on the surface but she is May Sarton, the writer. May Sarton, the person of the biography, is the hanger piled heavily with her literary efforts. We really do have to separate them. Her literature is a lovely fiction of what could be at its very best, and that is why we are so moved by her writing. Margot Peters has written the story of May, of who could be us in some degree as well, human in the least searching of ways. I commend Margot Peters; this was not an easy biography to write, especially since the temperamental subject was still alive. I do think that Margot managed to show the many facets of May, a complicated woman.
May was terribly underserved by the psychiatrists she saw, as Margot Peters recounted. As one last thought to ponder I question that May was not diagnosed as being bipolar one - the typical manic depressive, with her urgency to write non stop, her violent angry outbursts (depression), her non stop talking, her hyperactive personality, her promiscuity, her drinking (self-medicating), her grandiose spending without consideration for reality, the wild mood swings. With someone as smart as May, and demanding "talk therapy", the prevalent therapy of its day, a poorly trained, inexperienced or meek psychiatrist would have missed the signs because they are mostly self or family reported. She attributed it all to her childhood and her artistic temperament. Lithium may have made a huge difference in her life - but then, she may not have been MAY SARTON, POET AND AUTHOR with drug therapy to balance her disordered life.
I thoroughly enjoyed this book. I read all of the journals first then came upon this biography. Wow did it fill in the gaps! My head was spinning. I tried to keep a cheat sheet of May’s always overlapping lovers and crushes. There were so many people in May’s life and travels and visits and lunches and dinners etc etc that I got lost many times. Who was this now???? May gave her Facebook version of her life in her journals, the real May actually was a bully and sometimes stalkerish. I had an inkling when I read the journals that I didn’t think I liked May as a person. After the biography I definitely don’t. I agree with the biographer I didn’t enjoy any of May’s poems. But now with all this new information I am going to re-read all the journals, books etc that I have collected. Because like May’s friends I don’t like her, but I can’t get enough of her.
I've read every word Sarton ever wrote, and though Margot Peters did a well-researched bio, I found it to be biased in favor of negative traits and missing the whole point of Sarton's eclectic following. I also doubted that Peters had read any of Sarton's work, and if you're going to write a bio about an author, then you should demonstrate understanding of the most important thing in that writer's life. There was a lot of interesting information, but I needed more balance.
This was clearly a thorough and clear-eyed, even critical biography, but I'm having a hard time separating my rating of the book about the life from the life itself. Since reading Mrs. Stevens Hears the Mermaids Singing back in the 90s and then Journal of Solitude, I liked Sarton. Plus we share a birthday. But all the drama! I ultimately found the subject childish and self-centered and so, finally, not very interesting after all. Was hard to finish the book.
I was baffled by the negative slant of this biography. Why would Margot Peters, the biographer who featured Ms. Sartons work) at her own university (so presumably an admirer of the work) write so judgmental a biography?
The book is weighted heavily on the subject's personal attributes with inproportionately intricate detail of Ms. Sarton's personal shortcomings as and very few positives to upset the negatives. Her work, as well, was criticized intensely by Ms. Peters, positives not recognized much....all well and good. However this did not feel like a balanced summary to me. Some of Ms Sarton's shortcomings are somewhat brutally cataloged in long explanations of her friendships and ex-friendships... and what happened to derail them.
Ms. Sarton did willingly gave access to her letters to friends and to the friends themselves (probably not a great idea in retrospect!) I'm sure, as well, there were quite a few conversations between Ms. Sarton and Margot Peters since the biography took place over a period of years and there were numerou in person visits between the two when Ms Sarton was already elderly and ill. Sure, Ms Peters wanted the biography to be comprehensive and factual, but she seemed bent on extracting every possible negative piece of information (mainly from Ms Sarton's friends or former friends). She did indeed do a masterful job of presenting unending details.
I'm sure the facts uncovered are all too real, but I'm also sure, there are talents, positives and happy stories about this author, her struggles, her generosity and her work which could have been related along with all the negatives. I heard little of this in the last half of the book. The over-focus on shortcomings (especially temper) and the ruthless, unsparing examples seemed to come from a place other than that of objectivity.
I've read the journals and know that May Sartan wanted a biographer and when Margot approached her she was a little worried but mostly happy about one being written.
However upon reading this biography I felt that Margot Peters was not kind and sometimes hostile toward May's lifestyle and her dependance on friends and acquaintances.
In my opinion, May Sarton was a fragile person her whole life. I have worked with mentally ill people and from her journals I feel that she was manic depressive. She was happiest when she was busy writing and presenting her poems to audiences and trying to keep up with all the mail she received. When she could not keep up with her ideal lifestyle then she became depressed and found it hard to cope.
She also had medical issues and I know from personal experience that when one is not feeling great or is in pain, it colours one's whole life and causes a general state of unhappiness and frustration.
When she would call on her friends and locals in York for help, in her 70s and 80s, from her point of view she was not using people but assumed they wanted to help her. Again, in my opinion, If they felt used then it was up to them to say so and to put limits on what she asked of them. Some did but most did not, and the ones who did not should not have complained to May's biographer!
She is resting in peace, free from pain and the suffering caused by medical issues that were mostly beyond her control in the last 10 years or so of her life.
Fascinating how this book reveals a Sarton that is completely different from her journals: a writer who had many love affairs, violent temper tantrums, no respect or understanding of others' boundaries, and the wound of painfully low self-esteem that never healed; the paradox: May wanted to be perceived as enjoying her solitude yet barely spent a month in a year completely alone. It was interesting to read this biography together with Sarton's diaries.
An insightful and well written biography of a multi-faceted, flawed, brilliant and very human writer. As the author warned its subject before she began, it is a "warts and all" account of her life and her work, which is exactly I think what we should expect from an excellent biography.
Being a fan of May Sarton and have read just about every book or article she wrote or was written about her , I was looking forwad to reading this. Was I WRONG !!!!! Had to put it down , it was awful. Sorry I bought the book. Why would May Sarton allow this women to spend hours with her to write this biography? After talking to some friends , I started the book again from a different perspective. .Found out I didn't like May Sarton as a person. To much drama and winning and was not very nice to her friends ,we call this now being a diva. Still enjoyed her work and have been rereading it.All her work has help the woman movement advance and made haveing a career as inportant as haveing a family.
It was great to learn a bit more about her. It helped me to understand some of her books better. I'm not sure I would have liked her as a person (promiscuous & overbearing), but I would have enjoyed meeting her and hearing her at a reading. Possibly would have enjoyed her classes as well, though I'm not sold on that ...
Fascinating portrait of a difficult personality. I've always been a fan of Sarton's memoirs and novels, but never knew she had such an intense personality. I don't think that intensity and anger come across in her work. I would have liked a little more literary analysis to go along with the life details, but perhaps that was not the purpose here.
I loved May Sarton's work until I read this biography. I was so disappointed to learn that Sarton was excessively selfish, egotistical and immature. I read this book a long time ago and might try reading it again to see if I change my mind. Perhaps I idealized her too much in the first place.
Well written and seemingly well researched. Not a very flattering picture of May Sarton whom I've become such a fan of in recent months. It was interesting to read about all the people's lives she touched--for better or worse.