Eleanor, The Secret Queen: The Woman Who Put Richard III on the Throne

by John Ashdown-Hill

The secret history of Eleanor Talbot examines the woman at the heart of the controversy surrounding Richard III. The author proves that Eleanor was married to Edward IV and therefore the marriage to Elizabeth Woodville was bigamous, and that the princes in the Tower were illegitimate.

Genres: History, Nonfiction, Biography, British Literature, Medieval, Medieval History, Historical

255 pages, Hardcover

First published January 1, 2009

About the author

Louis John Frederick Ashdown-Hill MBE FSA (5 April 1949 – 18 May 2018), commonly known as John Ashdown-Hill, was an independent historian and author of books on late medieval English history with a focus on the House of York and Richard III of England. Ashdown-Hill died 18 May 2018 of motor neurone disease.

Reviews

[Mrs. C. · Rating 5 out of 5]

I'm giving this book 5 stars not because it's a page-turner that you can't set down (it isn't), but because of the massive research with a no-stone-left-unturned approach on the part of Ashdown-Hill. This is definitely not a book for those just beginning their study of the Wars of the Roses or the legend of Richard III. Instead, it's a niche piece on a previously under-studied, even ignored, aspect of the conflict--whether or not Edward IV was indeed already married to Eleanor Talbot when he married Elizabeth Woodville (or Widville, as Ashdown-Hill prefers), thus making his children illegitimate and unable to inherit the crown. Ashdown-Hill argues that he was, and though there is no one piece of evidence on which the case turns, he has built a very strong circumstantial case. Highly recommended for those who (like me) can never get enough of the Yorkists!

[Ikonopeiston · Rating 2 out of 5]

This is a work of surpassing dryness which came as a welcome antidote to the overheated romanticism of the novels (set in this same period) with which I have been lately afflicting myself.

Once past the endless chapters on the family connections of Eleanor Talbot, her husband and all their distant and collateral relations, the eternal definitions of property and descriptions of landscapes there is some material of interest. Eleanor herself never fully emerges from the obscurity in which she is veiled by history. Perhaps this is inevitable since women were generally of no great account in the fifteenth century but the efforts of Ashdown-Hill to make her a figure of more importance than she already was are somewhat laughable. He ascribes to her motives and behaviour which must remain speculative as if it were proven. Why did she not lodge a protest when Edward announced his bigamous marriage to Elizabeth Woodville? Ashdown-Hill provides a number of reasons which seem rather contrived but are plausible. What was her connection to which religious house or body? Our author declares she never became a professed nun but may have become a lay member of the Carmelites. "May have", "might be" and the like are the irritatingly repeated hall mark of this book. I will not get into the question of the identification of Eleanor's possible body or his speculation over the significance of her dental abnormalities. (If the body with the abnormality is really hers.) Just another, "it may have been".

Ashdown-Hill has another habit which drove me near distraction. He continually sprinkles his text with French and Latin phrases to no useful effect. He also quotes sources in Latin, translating the more obvious ones and leaving the tricky and harder ones in the original tongue. I am not sure if he is simply playing games or did not have the skill to read the more difficult passages.

There are a number of handsome coloiur plates depicting open fields upon which a given manor or castle stood, a castle wall showing a vanished garden with a long gone footbridge over which Eleanor might have walked, effigies of some of her relatives and the x-rays of what might be Eleanor's mouth which proves something or the other. Ashdown-Hill does not seem quite sure what it proves.

This is the only book yet available devoted completely to the story of Eleanor. And, like the little boy with with book on penguins, it told me more about her than I actually wanted to know. For bad writing and unconscionable padding of meagre material, this gets only two stars; for not being romanticised fiction about the characters involved it gets more than one star. Read this if you are avidly curious about Eleanor Talbot, otherwise wait for a better treatment of the subject.

[Brian · Rating 4 out of 5]

John Ashdown-Hill has written a whole series of articles in _The Ricardian_about Eleanor Talbot, and this book pulls together the information he has researched and tidied up the story. If you want to know everything that is known about this lady, this book is definitely the place to go. She has been neglected/overlooked by other historians in the past - one even going so far as to claim she was not the daughter of the Earl of Shrewsbury. Ashdown-Hill puts this neglect right, and the scholarship involved is commendable.

Whether this book will convince you that Eleanor married Edward IV is another matter. It is, in fairness, virtually impossible to prove that an irregular marriage took place - the whole point of them was that they were secret. On the other hand it's equally impossible to prove it *did not*. It ultimately comes down to what you believe, and that in turn depends on how you assess the characters involved.

Ashdown-Hill points out, correctly, that if Edward IV had married Elizabeth Woodville in regular fashion, that would have put the onus on Eleanor to come forward and object to the marriage. Her failure to do so would have put her in the wrong, and would have meant that Elizabeth's children would have been deemed legitimate. So it begs a huge question. Why did Edward choose (another?) irregular marriage with Elizabeth? The kindest thing I can say about Edward was that he was grossly irresponsible. (I dare say his mother said a lot worse.)

[Kathy · Rating 5 out of 5]

Fascinating look at the woman who may, in fact, have been Edward IV's "secret queen." Unfortunately, we have nothing even close to a smoking gun, that tells us definitely that this was what happened, but John Ashdown-Hill presents a good case.

[Nicessary · Rating 4 out of 5]

History by the evidence

This is no pithy novel but a detailed examination of the evidence (such as exists) for the Lady Eleanor royal marriage. The author is objective and patient with his readers.

[Kirsty ❤️ · Rating 4 out of 5]

Lady Eleanor Talbot (or Butler as she became known after marriage) is the woman who Richard III claimed to be his elder brother King Edwards first wife, married in secret in the same manner as his later marriage to Elizabeth Woodville. In this fascinating book John Ashdown-Hill here seeks to recreate the life of Eleanor, how she came to know the King and her life afterwards.

Ashdown-Hill is a noted historian whose painstaking research into Richard III allowed for the discovery of his remains in 2012. Richard’s Titulus Regius argued that as Edward had married Eleanor in secret and at no point had there ever been a public announcement (as he did with Woodville) that there could never have been, under Medieval law a dissolution of the marriage and therefore Elizabeth Woodville could have legitimately become the wife of Edward which in turn made her son’s illegitimate and not by birthright in line for the throne. Such information would have been essential to secure the Tudor line & legitimising that royal lineage.

As the author states ten years ago the majority of the information in the book was unknown. It’s only through archaeological digs, the discovery of possible remains in Norwich and thorough research that it has been made possible. Ashdown-Hill starts the book with a genealogical tour of Eleanor’s family stretching back several centuries so the reader can get an idea of her social standing, one that was equal to Elizabeth Woodville’s if not even stronger. You are given insight into life in that 15th Century with detailed descriptions of the way the family would live, the way they may eat and dress. He follows with information on her marriage and widowhood and increasing dependence on her spiritual faith that led her to link with the Carmelite church as well as links to Corpus Christi. He ends with information on the remains found in Norwich which may or may not belong to Eleanor. He ends with a discussion of Eleanor in various fictional stories and supplies a list of all the documentary evidence available that confirms her existence, possibly proves her secret marriage and also includes transcripts of the original documents of the time of Richard III including the titulus regius denouncing his brother along with documents regarding middle brother George and his treasonous actions.

As a medieval fan I found this to be very in-depth, engaging book detailing the life of one of the more unknown but much speculated on ladies of medieval times and one that who for the whim of a King could have been Queen of England and changed English history as we know it.

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[Val · Rating 3 out of 5]

Documentary evidence for life in the C15th is sparse and patchy. The author has obviously done a lot of research and found what is available. He also tries to give an idea of what the people were like and the circumstances of their lives and does a very good job of separating fact from speculation and contemporary reports from later obfuscation.
I'm not sure all the details of property transfers and family connections added much of importance to the picture and the detail did start to become dull after a while. It might have been better to put some of it in an appendix. This is good scholarship, but I doubt if I am the only person to be more interested in the juicy bits.

[Louise · Rating 1 out of 5]

I have to applaud the author for managing to produce one of the dullest books it has ever been my misfortune to read. I have to give credit where it is due though, and acknowledge the determination with which he managed to spin out concrete facts sufficient for a mere twenty pages into one hundred and eighty. That's a top darts score. Shame he missed the target in almost every other respect. Turgid is about the best I can say for it.

[Pauline Calkin · Rating 4 out of 5]

John Ashdown-Hill was the scholar whose research led not only to the discovery of Richard III’s remains but also its identification through tracing the descendants of his sister Ann. In this volume he focuses his attention on the woman whose alleged marriage to Edward IV was the basis of Richard’s claim to the throne. One of his points I found particularly interesting, i.e., the fact that historians have generally accepted that Edward IV did have a relationship with Eleanor. Whether they actually married is the issue in question.

The author devotes many chapters to Eleanor’s genealogy as well as that of her first husband, Thomas Boteler, including distant and collateral relations I am not about to criticize these efforts or dismiss their historical significance, but as a casual reader I found them of little interest—not to mention I couldn’t keep the relationships straight for more than a page or two. The author explores the properties held by Eleanor, her family, and in-laws. Edward’s actions with respect to various of these properties may suggest some vindictiveness (or veiled threats) to Eleanor’s family, but are certainly not definitive. The book is filled with perhaps too much speculative language: “Eleanor must have felt,” “Edward must have known.”

The most cogently reasoned section is the chapter on Eleanor’s treatment by historians. An appendix discussing Eleanor’s treatment in fiction is interesting, although the author can be a tad bit pedantic here. (E.g., He believes that it is an unforgivable sin to refer to Elizabeth Lambert as Jane Shore.)

Because this is the only non-fiction book dealing exclusively with Eleanor, and it is meticulously researched, it is a worthwhile work. It will not convince doubters, however.

[Lisbeth · Rating 4 out of 5]

In 2012 the skeleton of Richard III was found under a parking lot in Leicester. The event started an interest in me to know more about him and the discovery. I read two books connected to Richard III; The Search for Richard III - The King's Grave by Philippa Langley and Michael Jones and Richard III and the Princes in the Tower by A.J. Pollard. It also generated a visit to Leicester and Richard III's tomb, as well as a reading of Shakespeare's Richard III. There was something missing though.

One question was never answered; why was there not more written about Richard III's claim that he was the legitimate heir, since Edward IV was already married to Eleanore Talbot, when he entered into matrimony with Elizabeth Woodville. There were parliamentary documents which showed that this was the case. But how are they to be interpreted?

As always it is a complicated political matter. Richard III's ascent to the throne was surrounded by chock and a lot of resistant from various parts. The disappearance of the Princes in the Tower was another question, more urgent, as well as the fact that he only ruled for two years, before he died at the Battle of Bosworth in 1485, defeated by Henry Tudor. Tudor, who married Edward IV's daughter Elizabeth of York, in order to legitimatise his own power, was not interested in hearing that she was illegitimate.

While visiting the beautiful Richard III museum in Leicester, I found a book about Eleanor Talbot. Eleanor, The Secret Queen. The Woman who put Richard III on the Throne by John Ashdown-Hill. There is not very much known about Eleanor, but Ashdown-Hill has done his research well. It is a very interesting story, especially with all the complications that such a marriage implied, not only for Edward IV and Elizabeth Woodville, but also for Richard III and Henry VII.

"Eleanor had been born under the sign of Pisces, and either by fate or by chance, she was to grow up with many of the characteristics traditionally ascribed to that star sign, for she was gentle, sensitive, idealistic and perhaps even somewhat passive. A girl who needed her own space, she would also ultimately develop a bent towards contemplation and mysticism."

Since there is not much information on Eleanor herself, Ashdown-Hill has concentrated on her family and how life was lived at the time. Sometimes it reads a little bit too academic, and not always relevant to the story. However, if you are interested in history, it is an interesting analyses of the days. It also shows how little women had to say about their own lives. Ashdown-Hill argues, and shows documents to prove his point, that Eleanor was married to Edward IV.

Like for Richard III (until recently) nobody knows where Eleanor is buried. Ashdown-Hill's detective work has taken him to a possible burial point, but it cannot, today, be determined that the remains found belonged to Eleanor or not. It you, like me, are interested in historical mysteries, it is a fascinating book to read and conclusions well documented where possible. Usually, royal weddings are a public affair. But in the case of Edward the IV, it seems he married on his own accord, not only once, but twice. Without consulting the proper authorities. It is fascinating to consider the consequences, as Ashdown-Hill puts it:

"Why then has Eleanor been so completely neglected? She is, in her own way, a key figure of English history, a veritable 'Cleopatra's nose'. If her marriage to Edward IV had been acknowledged in her lifetime, if she had actually been enthroned and crowned as England's queen-consort, all subsequent history must have been different. The house of York might still have been reigning today, in a separate kingdom, never united to Scotland. The despotic, paranoid Tudors would have remained unheard of outside their native Wales. Enormous consequences would flow from all this. The English Reformation, which sprang from Henry VIII's dynastic and financial crises, and was neither generally desired nor supported by the English populace, have preserved to the present day their unrivalled cultural heritage. No Tudors would mean no Stuarts; no Civil War; no Oliver Cromwell. The story goes on and on. It all turns on Eleanor."

It is a staggering thought of what might, or might not have been. Historians do not agree on whether Eleanor and Edward were actually married or not. How should the text of the document be interpreted? If they were married, why did not her family, or herself, come forward when he married Elizabeth Woodville? We will probably never know the true details, but it is yet another interesting and fascinating historical mystery.

From book blog: thecontentreader.blogspot.com

[Lisa Houlihan · Rating 1 out of 5]

The only textual basis to assume a marriage (precontract, betrothal, what you will) between Edward IV and Eleanor Talbot is the testimony of the purported officiant 20 years later. With Edward IV dead and Richard of Gloucester champing at the bit to be Richard III, this bishop had reason to exaggerate or fabricate. Nothing that Ashdown-Hill ("the present author") forwards as evidence is more than circumstantial. He tries to prove a negative with sources that are insubstantial, hearsay, inferential, missing, or never written at all. That Richard III called his nephews illegitimate only proves that he called them so and had the influence to make his opinion stick. It doesn't prove that Edward IV (whom Richard III also labeled illegitimate, but, tellingly, not until after his death) was contracted to someone else before Elizabeth Woodville. The Woodville marriage was already suspect (not public, insufficiently witnessed) and that was enough to make its offspring illegitimate without an earlier betrothal.

To paraphrase Indiana Jones, good scholarship here matters less than people that have been dead for several hundred years and in other countries.

What I learned: just because a book is about pre-Stuart England doesn't make it worth reading.

[Donna · Rating 1 out of 5]

This book explores the claim that the Yorkist King, Edward IV was married to Eleanor Talbot prior to his marriage to Elizabeth Woodville. This is an interesting idea and I understand the author's fascination with this as the implications for English history, were this to be true, would be significant. A prior marriage to Eleanor, who was still living at this point, would make Edward's subsequent marriage to Elizabeth Woodville bigamous and would mean that the children from this marriage, including Edward V (one of the Princes in the Tower) and Elizabeth of York (wife of Henry VII and mother of Henry VIII were illegitimate. The author has clearly done a LOT of research - which can be seen in the interminable early chapters on the family history of Eleanor and her first (only?) husband - and sketches out a plausible scenario for the marriage. The problem is that the evidence is scant and the author stretches the material that would have been barely sufficient for an undergrad dissertation across a full book. It is an interesting idea but for me the evidence is too slight for the author to draw the conclusions he does.

[Matthew · Rating 1 out of 5]

I picked up this book because I was interested in Richard III and his brother Edward IV. Unfortunately, I didn’t realize that the author was still fighting the War of the Roses and really only wrote the book to emphasize the legitimacy of Richard III’s reign and illegitimacy of Henry VII. Goals that the book fails to meet.

There are some good aspects to the book. It is meticulously researched with details on everyone Eleanor Talbot may have known. It also includes a lot of information that has been recovered since previous books on this topic have been written. This is where the positive aspects of the book end.
The writing is dry and, in many respects, too detailed. The author recounts the life from birth to death of every person Eleanor Talbot may have interacted with expect for the Richard III and Edward IV. In relating this biographies, two problems are created. The first is that the book jumps back and forth in time with the life of each person, confusing the chronology of the main theme. The other is that many events are mentioned redundantly as these secondary characters crossed paths with each other.

At the same time, residences owned or used by the characters are given the same biographical treatment making the flow of events even more difficult to follow. In one case, the description of a manor house used for less than 6 months ran a full 8 pages.
Given the details of residences and lives it was a large surprise that there is almost no account of the historical events that occurred in this time. One example of this is the Battle of Castillon where at least three of the people mentioned in the book died, including Eleanor’s father. Although we are told the date of the battle, we are told nothing about why it was fought or the how it affected the course of history. We are only told who died in the battle, but this is done in each individual biography.

The biggest problem with the book is that, even with the excellent research performed by the author, there really is very little solid fact rely on. To fill in these gaps the author must make assumptions based on the existing evidence. Most of these assumptions are plausible and some really fit the facts very well. However, a lot of these assumptions don’t ring true and seem to gratuitously support Richard III. In other cases, even when the author’s assumption seems to be a good one, plausible and obvious alternatives that don’t support his thesis are ignored. In a few cases, like his assumption that Elizabeth Woodville had Eleanor Talbot poisoned, his assumptions seem more like fabrications.

The bottom line is that, the author makes a very good case for accepting that the marriage of Edward IV to Elizabeth Talbot occurred but did nothing to prove and may even have hurt his other arguments in support of Richard III.

[David Gray · Rating 2 out of 5]

I was very disappointed in this book which seemed to consist of tortuous descriptions of the relationships between Eleanor and her extended family. What I had hoped was for a deeper insight into the possible marriage of Eleanor and Edward IV, but what there was on this formed a very small part of the book. Though I had hoped to find some new evidence that the marriage did or did not exist, Mr. Ashdown-Hill brought little that was new to the table. His conclusions seemed to me largely speculation and did little to convince me, particularly because the author is a well-known Ricardian.

[Lezley · Rating 4 out of 5]

I love John Ashdown Hills's historical non-fiction books and am eagerly looking forward to reading about the Duke of Clarence. Eleanor Talbut has often been dismissed in a sentence or two in most fiction and non-fiction books, so it's a delight to gain some insight into her role in the downfall of the Woodward legacy.

[Aishuu · Rating 1 out of 5]

This reads like a genealogy chart... incredibly dry, focused on the family to the point of including multiple abbreviated family trees in a single chapter, and full of speculation based on "the usual practices" of the time. It's so boring that I abandoned it about 20 percent through.

[Pat Mckay · Rating 2 out of 5]

Good information but padded out with too much filler, making for a slow read.

2020: if I'd checked my Goodreads list, I would not have read this again. My opinion of it is still the same.

[Edith · Rating 1 out of 5]

DNF, at around 20%. The first fifth of this book is almost completely either abundant speculation about Eleanor's life, or descriptions of her huge extended family. We apparently know very little for sure about her and less about her husband, but that doesn't stop the flood of maybes and perhaps flowing from Ashdown-Hill's pen. I stopped reading when I got to Chapter 10, Married Life, when Ashdown-Hill speculates about Eleanor's appearance, and says "As for Eleanor..., descriptions may be lacking, but ten years after her marriage to Thomas, she would command the attention of a king. There is therefore little reason to doubt that Eleanor was attractive."

Ashdown-Hill has not even proved so far that Eleanor ever met Edward, so he is more than a little ahead of himself here. And his assurance that she must have been attractive is based on a fact he has yet to establish. Nothing so far has anything but the wispiest circumstantial evidence.

"Obviously, since no historian has ever questioned that a relationship of some kind did exist between Edward and Eleanor, the couple must have met at some stage." First, can it possibly be true that no historian has ever questioned this? (I do, I must say.) And second, the second clause stupefies one by its bootstrappery. How this book, which is basically a short paper padded with genealogy, ever got published is a total mystery. Distressing.

This is an extremely irritating book, its thesis almost entirely unsupported by anything other than a thousand probablys, in which I am very disappointed. Useful (so far as I can judge from what I've read) only for its detailed analysis of genealogical relationships among English nobility in the mid to late 15th c. This is not history; it's a fantasy.

[Janice Bridger · Rating 3 out of 5]

Amazing level of research as the author has investigated every possible source for mentions of Eleanor even including trying to find her skeleton! It seems pretty likely that Edward IV was still under some kind of contract with Eleanor when he supposedly married Elizabeth Woodville. It is debatable whether this is enough for an entire book- it is padded out with excessive detail of all Eleanor’s relatives. None of that however helps to prove what actually happened between Edward and Eleanor and the one other witness Bishop Stillington. It is clever marketing to write on the book “the woman who put Richard III on the throne” No she didn’t- she went off quietly and lived her remaining short life in semi religious seclusion under the Carmelite order possibly donating money to Corpus Christi college Cambridge. The book also shows how history was manipulated by the Tudors as an act of parliament about the marriage was revoked. Impressive detailed timeline and bibliography to finish as well.

[Shiv · Rating 4 out of 5]

I read this book knowing little about Eleanor Talbot, the daughter of the Earl of Shrewsbury, except for the fact that I knew that when after Edward IV died, Eleanor was mentioned to make his marriage to Elizabeth Woodville invalid. It was interesting to read about Eleanor growing up and then her marriage to Thomas Butler. It was definitely interesting reading about her 'marriage' to Edward IV, as it is similar to his romance and marriage to Elizabeth Woodville. I highly recommend this book, as if there was a marriage between Edward IV and Eleanor Talbot, then that means that the line of succession was in question and Edward's children were illegitimate so Richard III in theory, was the rightful heir to the throne. I recommend to read this book to find out more about the woman who changed the course of history through her secret marriage.

[Angela · Rating 2 out of 5]

This was not what I was expecting. The author seems to have gotten distracted with creating genealogies. I'm not sure how this contributed to Eleanor putting Richard III on the throne. There was a small, almost after thought, line about how the most often referred to "bastardom" of Edward IV was about his children and not himself (as Shakespeare tells us), that helped me see how the Eleanor connection played into this but it was never elaborated on. It was disappointing not to have more information shared about Eleanor herself, the reason I picked up the book - to learn more about the actual women of the Wars of the Roses.

[♡ Vincent · Rating 4 out of 5]

3.5 stars rounded to 4.
Like multiple biographies of medieval women, there's very little information about Eleanor Talbot, but the author tries his hardest to paint a picture of Eleanor. Tho we get the "Might have", "Perhaps", "Could've", "Would probably" etc.
The author tries his hardest to convince us that Edward and Eleanor married or at least had sexual relation but personally I'm not convince. Eleanor and Edward could've been friends or at least knew each other but other from the priest, Richard III found.
Eleanor and Edward 'marriage' argument, is fascinating but from the sources we have there's barely anything to promote that is it true.

[Debi Emerson · Rating 4 out of 5]

Intriguing

Though a bit dry in sections, this is the well researched and well written tale of a woman who is not generally known to most, yet played a significant role in English history. Very interesting, tho it can be a bit difficult to keep track of the various names of individuals.

[Susan · Rating 4 out of 5]

I felt he speculated a little too much at times, though he often tried to give all possible interpretations of the evidence available, such as it is. It's an intriguing book and makes one wonder what would have happened had Eleanor been acknowledged as the wife of Edward IV.

[Cindy Short · Rating 1 out of 5]

I love historical pieces, but this was one of my least favorite books. I found it difficult to read and follow most of the time, as the author felt the need to delve into many family trees, dedicating an entire chapter to each. By the time I got to the meat of the story, I was quite bored.

[Natalia · Rating 4 out of 5]

An interesting insight into a woman we know so little about. Book is a little bland but informative and filled with knowledge.

[Rena Schlender · Rating 3 out of 5]

Well researched but a tedious read.

[Maureen D. Hunter · Rating 1 out of 5]

Boring and repetitive

A very difficult and confusing read. The author's point of view was strongly stressed throughout. Not an unbiased account of controversial historical subject.

[Jean · Rating 1 out of 5]

I don’t mind non fiction. Really I don’t but it was a little hard to follow the reason for the book to be written. Did not finish. Read the first 100 pages then stopped.

[Michelle Carter · Rating 4 out of 5]

repetitive but I can see how it was difficult to get a book out of limited information. Very interesting though