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The Seeley Lectures
Demopolis: Oder was ist Demokratie?
Rare Book
Hardcover
First published March 22, 2019
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136 people want to read
About the author
Josiah Ober
31 books35 followersJosiah Ober is Tsakopoulos-Kounalakis Professor in honor of Constantine Mitsotakis, and Professor of Classics and Political Science, at Stanford University.
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Displaying 1 - 5 of 5 reviews
September 9, 2022
(I only read the chapters that are relevant to the topic of my thesis.) A great source to learn and think about Athenian democracy and (liberal) democracy today.
March 6, 2018
Remember the distinction between arkhê and kratos. Kratos is the radical equality in the state of nature. To put it better, state of nature is kratos. Liberal tradition tries to deliver kratos through arkhê in vain. Demokrasinin liberalizminden önceki hali vardır. "Social contract is dead political theory." Teoriciler kesin tıraşı!
December 4, 2020
Tragically wasted chance to write a badly needed apology of aliberal (as opposed to antiliberal) democracy.
Author is trying to explain that radical (or base, as he calls it) democracy that concerns itself only with the mode of government and doesn't deal with moral questions such as human rights and civic freedoms is
1) a public good by itself
2) not antithetical to liberalism
I share both beliefs but, notwithstanding my position, such a book is neccessary if only to give a real sparring partner to the people who're claiming that democracy is killing liberalism, because today they have to argue with straw men.
Unfortunately, Ober is drowning himself in insignificant or obvious details. For example he uses 4 (!) pages to prove that any democracy in the 21th century would give voting rights to women - a notion that doesn't require any proving at all, even less so such a long one.
As a result, the book is unreadable and all interesting thoughts that the author definitely has are buried under a huge pile of totally redundant explanations.
Such a pity.
Author is trying to explain that radical (or base, as he calls it) democracy that concerns itself only with the mode of government and doesn't deal with moral questions such as human rights and civic freedoms is
1) a public good by itself
2) not antithetical to liberalism
I share both beliefs but, notwithstanding my position, such a book is neccessary if only to give a real sparring partner to the people who're claiming that democracy is killing liberalism, because today they have to argue with straw men.
Unfortunately, Ober is drowning himself in insignificant or obvious details. For example he uses 4 (!) pages to prove that any democracy in the 21th century would give voting rights to women - a notion that doesn't require any proving at all, even less so such a long one.
As a result, the book is unreadable and all interesting thoughts that the author definitely has are buried under a huge pile of totally redundant explanations.
Such a pity.
March 21, 2020
This is a contemporary version of Plato's Republic. Ober is postulating what democracy would look like without liberalism, which refers to systems of government that combine both democracy (popularly elected officials and competitive elections) and liberalism (ensuring individual rights and the recognition of individual sovereignty). What would modern democracies look like if we were to take away the liberalism and strip our democracy down to "bare democracy" where we simply vote for people who will manage our national economic and security affairs?
September 8, 2022
An impressive achievement, very informative and thought-provoking. Ober really argues from everywhere, the book is a tour de force of political knowledge. But Ober's goal was extremely difficult to attain, and I believe he fails to do so. In fact, after all the work Ober is forced to put in, I think I've become more aware of how much of democracy's appeal rests on its modern intertwinement with liberalism.
Regarding the arguments, I have some general issues with Ober's use of positive theory, specifically with his (optimistic) scenarios of social equilibrium (the only guarantees of liberties and rights). But my main contention regards his defense of democracy as the only way for people to exercise certain inherently human capacities. The whole argument of the book depends on this holding up. But Ober doesn't explain why deliberation and collective reasoning and decision-making at levels other than the state (say, a company) aren't sufficient to exercise such capacities and to produce the so-called "democratic goods".
Another issue that is hard to look away from is the fact that, in Ober's basic democracy, status inequality (say, a cast system) is acceptable as long as, as citizens, people are equal. This allows Ober to make his basic democracy fit with iliberal regimes, but it's a bit wild.
One final thing I struggled with is Ober's insistence on referenda. I am sympathetic to his arguments for a more deliberative and participative form of democracy, but I think he is being quite unrealistic about the possibility of implementation and actual success of what he calls civic education.
Despite all these misgivings, Demopolis is definitely a good and original book, with many valuable sections that can be read independently (e.g. the part on democracy and expertise). Surely a must read for those interested in political theory.
Regarding the arguments, I have some general issues with Ober's use of positive theory, specifically with his (optimistic) scenarios of social equilibrium (the only guarantees of liberties and rights). But my main contention regards his defense of democracy as the only way for people to exercise certain inherently human capacities. The whole argument of the book depends on this holding up. But Ober doesn't explain why deliberation and collective reasoning and decision-making at levels other than the state (say, a company) aren't sufficient to exercise such capacities and to produce the so-called "democratic goods".
Another issue that is hard to look away from is the fact that, in Ober's basic democracy, status inequality (say, a cast system) is acceptable as long as, as citizens, people are equal. This allows Ober to make his basic democracy fit with iliberal regimes, but it's a bit wild.
One final thing I struggled with is Ober's insistence on referenda. I am sympathetic to his arguments for a more deliberative and participative form of democracy, but I think he is being quite unrealistic about the possibility of implementation and actual success of what he calls civic education.
Despite all these misgivings, Demopolis is definitely a good and original book, with many valuable sections that can be read independently (e.g. the part on democracy and expertise). Surely a must read for those interested in political theory.
Displaying 1 - 5 of 5 reviews