Confronting Empire: Interviews with David Barsamian

by Eqbal Ahmad, Edward W. Said

Eqbal Ahmad was an influential political theorist, cultural critic, writer and academic. Born in India, he grew up in the last years of the British Raj, moving to Pakistan during the civil war that followed partition, and eventually settling in the United States as a political refugee, having been declared persona non grata by successive military governments in Pakistan.

This book brings together Ahmad’s most influential writings on imperialism, terrorism and the Middle East. The volume also includes a series of themed interviews, conducted by David Barsamian specifically formulated to accompany, complement and develop Ahmad’s key themes and concerns. In the interviews, Ahmad recounts his work with the National Liberation Front and Frantz Fanon in Algeria, meeting Malcolm X, his role in the anti-Vietnam War protests and his activism on behalf of Palestine.

Genres: Nonfiction, Politics, History, Pakistan, Middle East, Post Colonial, Philosophy

208 pages, Hardcover

First published January 1, 2000

About the author

Eqbal Ahmad was a Pakistani political scientist, writer, journalist, and anti-war activist. He was strongly critical of the Middle East strategy of the United States as well as what he saw as the "twin curse" of nationalism and religious fanaticism in such countries as Pakistan.
Eqbal Ahmad was born in the village of Irki in Bihar, India in 1933 or 1934. A few years later, his father was murdered over a land dispute, while the young Eqbal lay beside him. During the partition of India in 1947, he and his elder brothers migrated to Pakistan.
Ahmad graduated from Foreman Christian College in Lahore, Pakistan, in 1951 with a degree in economics. After serving briefly as an army officer, he enrolled at Occidental College in California as a Rotary Fellow in American History in 1957. From 1958 to 1960, he studied political science and middle eastern history at Princeton, later earning his Ph.D.
From 1960 to 1963, Ahmad lived in North Africa, working primarily in Algeria, where he joined the National Liberation Front and worked with Frantz Fanon. He was a member of the Algerian delegation to peace talks at Evian.
When he returned to the United States, Ahmad taught at the University of Illinois at Chicago (1964 - 1965) and Cornell University in the school of Labour Relations (1965 - 1968). During these years, he became known as "one of the earliest and most vocal opponents of American policies in Vietnam and Cambodia". In 1969, he married the teacher and writer Julie Diamond. From 1968 to 1972, he was a fellow at the Adlai Stevenson Institute in Chicago.
In 1971, Ahmad was indicted with the anti-war Catholic priests, Daniel and Phillip Berrigan, along with four other Catholic pacifists, on charges of conspiracy to kidnap Henry Kissinger. After fifty-nine hours of deliberations, the jury declared a mistrial.
From 1972 to 1982, Ahmad was Senior Fellow at the Institution for Policy Studies. From 1973 to 1975, he served as the first director of its overseas affiliate, the Transnational Institute in Amsterdam.
In 1982, Ahmad joined the faculty at Hampshire College, in Amherst Massachusetts, where he taught world politics and political science.
In the early 1990's he was granted a parcel of land in Pakistan by Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto's government to build an independent, alternative university, named Khaldunia. The land was later seized by Bhutto's husband, Asif Zardari, reportedly to build a golf course and club.
A prolific writer and journalist, Eqbal was widely consulted by revolutionaries, journalists, activist leaders and policymakers around the world. He was an editor of the journal Race and Class, contributing editor of Middle East Report and L'Economiste du Tiers Monde, co-founder of Pakistan Forum, and an editorial board member of Arab Studies Quarterly. Ahmad was "that rare thing, an intellectual unintimidated by power or authority, a companion in arms to such diverse figures as Noam Chomsky, Howard Zinn, Ibrahim Abu-Lughod, Richard Falk, Fred Jameson, Alexander Cockburn and Daniel Berrigan."
Upon his retirement from Hampshire in 1997, he settled permanently in Pakistan, where he continued to write a weekly column, for Dawn, Pakistan's oldest English language newspaper. Eqbal died in Islamabad on May 11, 1999, of heart failure following surgery for colon cancer, diagnosed just one week before.

http://web.archive.org/web/2009102617...

Reviews

[Elle (ellexamines on TT & Substack) · Rating 4 out of 5]

My favorite of Ahmad's ideas is his belief in the need for any people looking for credit on the international stage to develop a 'moral high ground' above their opponent. He notes as example that British colonialism of India relied on a narrative of kindness towards those they in reality oppressed — and fell apart upon being faced with nonviolent resistance, because the image of violence inflicted on the innocent was too difficult. He applies this, too, to the cause of Palestinian freedom, noting that PLO leaders (notably, Yasser Arafat, whom he and other thinkers including Edward Said knew personally) often did not see the importance of image-building in their cause.

I like Ahmad's thinking very much, and am very glad generally to have read this. His backstory as a scholar is beyond impressive; born in India, he migrated to Pakistan, studied at Princeton, fought in the Algerian Revolution, was Senior Fellow at the Institute for Policy Studies through the 1970s, and moved back to academia at Hampshire college in Amherst, MA.

He's also known for his astute predictions of political trends — in 1986, after interviewing Osama Bin Laden (then a U.S. and Pakistani ally), he became convinced that Bin Laden would eventually turn against his then allies US and Pakistan for ideological reasons.

One of his other strongest sections is a section on the post colonial state as a "bad version" of the colonized one, and the dependency state not as a full 'post-colonial' state but as a continuation of the colonial structure. I think his general thinking on postcolonial states is extremely strong. Notably, his sections on Europe are by far his weakest. He predicts that European fear of Germany will be a far larger problem than it ultimately became.

But his thinking on Pakistan, India, Palestine, Algeria, and other colonized nations is beyond strong. I'm excited to read more by Ahmad and glad I spent my time on this.

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[Karolina]

Musiałam 5 razy sprawdzać czy na pewno książka nie powstała po 2001 roku (rozmowy przeprowadzono w 1998 r, Ahmad rok później zmarł), bo typ przewiduje w niej jakąś formę ataku ze strony bin Ladena, amerykańską "war on terror", nasilenie się nacjonalizmu hinduskiego w postaci pogromów (vide pogrom w Gudźaracie w 2002 roku), nasilenie ludobójczej polityki Izrahella i mocny skręt w prawo całej amerykańskiej polityki - może gdyby traktowano na poważnie obawy/przemyślenia ekspertów z Globalnego Południa, świat byłby mniej zjebany?

[Kamran · Rating 5 out of 5]

" I think you're a mehbbob, if i could use an Urdu word, a sweetheart for a lot of people. Thank you very much. "

- Words from David Barsamian after concluding his interview with Eqbal Ahmad.

Eqbal Ahmad, as Edward Said in the Forward note said that ' Eqbal was my Guru.'

He was such a gigantic personality, and proudly from my country, Pakistan.

It is series of lectures, discussing the world issues like Marxism, new liberal approaches, international solidarity etc etc and then analysis of contemporary countries' politics of the 90's situation with prescient outlook. There is a scientific analysis from Asia to Europe.

I wish there would have more to read but it ended with the last interview on Tipu Sultan and Iqbal's poetic version of Tipu's advice to his son, titled, "Do not accept the save heaven."

In the end, Guru is 🖤 ))

[Simon Wood · Rating 5 out of 5]

CONVERSATIONS WITH EQBAL AHMAD

This book is a record of there conversations David Barsamian of Alternative Radio had with the remarkable political activist and thinker Eqbal Ahmad not long before his untimely death in 1999. Ahmad was born in colonial era India, made the thousand mile journey to Pakistan with his Muslim League supporting older brothers in 1947 when he was twelve, went to University in the United States where he had a full career in academia while still finding time to be involved in a number of the liberation struggles in the Third World, most famously in Algeria during its War of Liberation against the French between 1954-1962.

Ahmad deals with a wide range of issues in his dialogue with Barsamian. He is of particular interest regarding the Palestinian struggle, and the work he done with his close friend Edward Said (who writes a fine introduction to this book) in their attempt to move Yasser Arafats PLO on from arm-struggle to potentially more productive forms of resistance in the 70's and 80's. His critique of the Oslo "peace" process is principled, pertinent and scathing for reasons that are now all too clear. Ahmad talks succinctly of a variety of figures he has known and worked with including Noam Chomsky (US activist and writer), Malcolm X (Black American activist), Franz Fanon (the Martinique writer on the Algerian Liberation struggle), Faiz Ahmed Faiz (the Pakistani poet) and Antonio Gramsci (the Italian Marxist jailed under Mussolini). These provide excellent summaries of their thinking for anyone not familiar with their works, as well as a fresh angle for those who know them well.

Other subjects that Ahmad talks of include the partition of India, Kashmir, Algeria, Marx's legacy, Terrorism and Islamic Fundamentalism. A highlight of the conversations for me was his critical look at V.S.Naipul and his book on Islam "Among the Believers" that he mercilessly dissects for it's historical inaccuracies with regard to Islam and India, and Naipul's representation of the American backed dictatorship of Zia ul-Haq as Islamic, and supported by the people of Pakistan, despite the amount of Pakistanis who were in prison and exile during its existence. This is Ahmad at his best, committed to being honest about the complexities of any situation, and against simple minded and hateful misrepresentations.

Due to the nature of this work, essentially transcriptions of radio interviews, it hasn't the depth nor is it as comprehensive as the five hundred or so pages of his "Selected Writings". Still it provides an excellent introduction to the thinking of one of the finest thinkers on world politics of the last century, particularly for those who are hesitant about starting with the larger Selected Works.

[Randall Wallace · Rating 5 out of 5]

“The most potent weapon of the weak – the moral high ground”. After discussing the Algerian struggle, Ahmed concludes, “the primary task of revolutionary struggle is to achieve the MORAL isolation of the adversary in its own eyes and in the eyes of the world.” The Cold War “killed the absolutely necessary tradition of questioning, of dissent.” People discover their real selves through struggle, without it you don’t discover it. Both Fanon and Malcolm X started with separatism and ended with “the universal in humankind.” Malcolm saw that Islam was anti-racist and all colors of devotees were at Mecca. Upon returning he said, “It is possible. I have seen a society at work which had no consciousness of race.” You have to put imperialism at the center of Western Civilization because it is defined by expansion, domination and imperialism. The largest migration in recorded history was twenty-two million people during the partitioning of India in 1947. “The imposition of Urdu as a nationalist language actually divided the country. It broke up the unity of the country. It contributed to the separation of Bangladesh (Bengali speaking) as an independent country.” Urdu is neither Muslim or Hindu, it was created as a common language for two peoples. Urdu is called Hindustani in India. The harsh occupation of Kashmir still continues where 50,000 have been killed since a revolt in1989. Not solving Kashmir means “the spread of Islamic and Hindu militancy”. Once Noam identified the problem of Imperialism he has pursued it, no matter what guises it takes. “Chomsky is an anarchist humanist, who believes that state power concentrated in fewer hands will produce evil.” “Israel’s fundamental contradiction was that it was founded as a symbol of the suffering of humanity …at the expense of another people who were innocent of guilt.” Eqbal asks Why displace the Palestinians “to accommodate the guilt of Europe?” “The Palestinians have become the victims of victims”. Israel is the only country in the world today that has “refused to announce its boundaries.” “Palestine is a thankless cause.”

At the end of the Cold War, the U.S. lost its mission, and so that mission became “human rights” - almost laughable for the country that for decades has happily supported more dictatorships than any other. “In search of a menace they turned to Islam. It is the easiest, because it has a history, it’s vulnerable, it’s weak. There is a history of demonization.” “the notion of ‘jihad’ as ‘just struggle’ had not existed in the Muslim world since the tenth century, until the United States revived it during it’s ‘jihad’ against the Soviet Union in Afghanistan.” When Russia fell, the mujahideen under payroll were suddenly turned on and transformed into terrorists. In Iran, after the Shah falls, the U.S. realizes in the future that you must have a modicum of “political liberalization” to let a proxy government’s populace blow off steam. “The Saudis, the Egyptians, the Jordanians are all minorities that are ruling over their own people. They are more scared of their own people than of foreign powers.” “After Indonesia, India has the largest Muslim population in the world.” “The spread of Islam in the subcontinent is the work of the Sufis who lived by service and setting an example of treating people equally without discrimination.” Eqbal’s advice to Students: “Think critically and take risks”. Eqbal on the U.S. elite’s response to the Clinton Sex Scandal - “Unless it shows uprightness at home, it cannot commit excesses abroad.” “The structure of Leninist thought, unlike that of Marx or Engels, is anti-democratic.” Narcissism throughout capitalism “makes it difficult to have a genuine sense of solidarity.” A great informative book about Pakistan, India, Bangladesh Israel, and Muslim culture. Eqbal’s writing is a good as Noam’s – an outstanding writer with deep historical and cultural understanding.

[Zach Carter · Rating 3 out of 5]

Eqbal Ahmad's grasp on geopolitics is something of a marvel. These interviews really were like spinning a globe and stopping it with your finger and asking him to analyze the forces at play. That said, I found a handful of his analyses sloppy - he equates Hitler to Stalin, calls the Soviet Union "one of the most defective formations" in all human history and then goes on to defend social democrats as a positive force, and really undervalues the incredible gains made by both socialist revolution and national liberation movements around the world. In many ways, he should be placed in the same category as Noam Chomsky - from whom I've learned a tremendous amount - in that their immense contribution to the field of anti-imperialism is at its best when it is aimed at the Western imperial powers.

[Nashwah · Rating 5 out of 5]

my dad refers to iqbal ahmad as “the pakistani guy who tried to kidnap kissinger the war criminal”

excellent book in interview format- opening poem by faiz ahmed faiz, intro by edward said, and compelling convo about other leftist thinkers he shared ideas with like chomsky, fanon. covers a broad range of topics including nationalism, palestinian liberation, and international solidarity. loved it!

[Faraaz · Rating 5 out of 5]

Noam Chomsky, Howard Zinn, Edward Said and Eqbal Ahmad are the four giants of anti Imperialistic scholarship and social movements in the Post Colonial era.

The first three wrote extensively and published multiple books to document their thoughts and moral leadership and clarity for the generations that follow.

Unfortunately, Eqbal Ahmad, and this is a complaint made to him by his friends, including the first 3 names above, had all his writings scattered all over the place and never really collected them to be published as a book like Chomsky, Said and Zinn.

Thankfully, David Barsamian sat down with him for a series of lengthy interviews and documented his thoughts in written form.

This is one of the few texts we have of Eqbal Ahmad's written thoughts.

If more of the Left today read these 4 instead of Marxist theory, we would have a stronger Left today that is grounded in anti Imperialism.

[sheereen · Rating 5 out of 5]

5 stars bc i really enjoyed his thought process and if i were capable of listening to anything/processing information that way i think listening to him talk would be wonderful

[Fariha · Rating 5 out of 5]

"When you are emphasizing the individual's role as a consumer, you are interested really in focusing on that individual's self-centeredness, his or her sexuality and self-image, a parent's relationship to his or her children, the children's relationship to their parents, a wife's relationship to her husband, each person's relationship to their car, and so on. This whole exercise promotes concentration on self. It's trying to enter into your psyche and thus invade the privacy of the individual, which is a very totalitarian process. That is why I have always argued that the whole democratic process in the world today is threatened by the fact that major institutions of society are trying to enter into the private life of people to turn them into consumers. If I am interested in you as a consumer, I am interested in your relationship to your wife, your sexuality, your self-image. These are all internal. When external bodies of power enter into the private lives of individuals, that's where democracy stops and totalitarianism begins."

[Uzma Aslam Khan · Rating 5 out of 5]

Eqbal Ahmad is at his most personable here, all while making searing predictions. I include here just one, from 1998: “Dictators rarely leave behind an alternative leadership or a viable mechanism for succession. Saddam Hussein is not an exception. Disarray and confusion shall certainly ensue if (he) is eliminated. Iraq is a greatly divided country… It is not clear that the US has either the will or the resources to undertake (its) remaking. If it does not, the scramble over Iraq may ignite protracted warfare involving Turkey, Iran, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Israel, Kurd, Arab, Shia, Sunni and, in one form or another, the US. The fundamentalist brand of Islamism may thrive.”

[Tanroop · Rating 4 out of 5]

A great series of interviews with the famous Eqbal Ahmad, comrade and inspiration to people like Edward Said and Noam Chomsky, on a dizzying array of topics. Constant, throughout the journey this book takes you on, is Ahmad's far-sightedness, humanity, and intellect.

[Monica Gold · Rating 4 out of 5]

I very much enjoyed this read. I enjoyed the foreword by Said, and I appreciated the interview style of the book. Ahmad was clearly a deeply thoughtful man, who balanced intellectualism with meaningful action. He died in 1999, yet his analyses remain true post 9/11 (in an almost haunting manner). Reading his words made me wish there were more people like him (and Said) alive today, helping the world to make sense of these times that feel so jarring and unprecedented.

[Zaid · Rating 5 out of 5]

One of my favorite books so far..Eqbal Ahmad is a phenomenal personality that I wish I knew before. It's truly unfortunate that he hasn't written any books. However, he left a wealth of interviews and articles behind him that I'm sure I will enjoy reading as much as I enjoyed reading this book.

[Paddy · Rating 5 out of 5]

This interview with Eqbal Ahmad is really good. Ahmad is incredibly well spoken, and his responses to questions are nuanced and genuine. He approaches issues with consistency, kindness, and a depth of historical knowledge that is incredibly impressive. It is easy to see the back and forth influence between him and Said. Both his historical analysis (in the first few parts) and his epistemic/philosophical views are well thought out, providing refreshing insight on problems that can seem insurmountable. Above all, his confidence in the human spirit and collective decision making is rare in this world that seems to be defined by greed, self-indulgence, and individualism.

[Joe Xtarr · Rating 5 out of 5]

Loved this! First time reading anything involving Eqbal and I was impressed. I would HIGHLY recommend this as an effective intro to 20th century global politics.

[Sajal · Rating 5 out of 5]

I am ashamed to say that this is my first time reading Eqbal Ahmad. I've definitely heard of him, I knew he contributed greatly to the Palestinian struggle as a close friend of Edward Said, but I just never sought him out. My God, am I late to the party.

How his work is not assigned reading in school - particularly in South Asia - is beyond me. Or rather, I now know exactly WHY he is not talked about in South Asian academics, political discourse and more.

This is such a short book and yet it covers so much:
1) The partition of 1947

Ahmad talks about, in great detail, how the Islamic scholars in pre-partition India were against nationalism and the partition, as they considered the separation anti-islamic. (Islam is a faith without boundaries, it's a universal religion).

He emphasizes that Pakistan is a very insecure nation-state, that has yet to find stability after decades of independence.

2) 'Israel' as a contradiction

The fundamental contradiction of Israel is that it was founded as a symbol of the suffering of humanity, at the expense of another person who were innocent of guilt. As Edward Said says, it's ironic that Palestinians have become the victim of the victims.

3) Definition of Terrorism and how we refuse to look into the historical roots of it

As Ahmad mentions, terrorism is not without history. We need to collectively look into historical roots of terrorism and redefine it. He defines it as illegal use of violence to influence someone's behaviour, taking revenge, inflicting punishment. In official definitions, there is no mention of illegal violence because that makes Imperialist states the biggest terrorists. There is also no inquiry into what causes terrorism. Globally, terrorism is synonymous with Islam. Funny how the US is never made to be complicit in terrorism, even though it was America that funded the jihad against Russia in Afghanistan and trained the Mujaheddin.

Eqbal Ahmad was truly a socialist and a democrat; he was committed to equality, freedom, critical thought and the accountability of rulers to citizens. He also believed that wealth should be controlled by people and not the State or corporations.

If I could recommend that you read one book this year, please let it be this. As Ahmad mentions in the book, 'truth has to be repeated'. It doesn't grow stale upon repetition.

[Sheida Mousavi · Rating 5 out of 5]

in what seems like a lifetime ago, my close friend and confidant recommended me this book while we were sitting in Parc Le Fountain. It was a beautiful morning and we were peaceful and happy.I was talking about me and our other close friends podcast on 9/11 and terrorism- as it is constructed and understood it the West. He recommended Eqbal immediately, to further the depth and theoretical basis of the podcast. I am forever grateful for that advise, as I finish this manuscript- three months after that podcast was due (we got 93) I don’t think I’ve ever read an intellectual as brilliant, analytical yet accessible in my life.

Eqbal arms the reader with a theoretical and analytical understanding of middle eastern and south Asian politics. But above all he urges us to be humanitarians and take risks. Act out of compassion and make sure ur activism is rooted theory to be impactful. Always theory. We are told that the Middle East is a demon, as harsh as it is unpredictable, yet through the conversation w Eqbal he humbly and yet with precision untangles the myths and rhetoric surrounding the Middle East and the strings that control it. It makes sense.

Any respectable learner should read this book because it’s easy and it’s powerful.

[Tatev Vardapetyan · Rating 5 out of 5]

Eqbal Ahmad’s Confronting Empire is a very important and powerful book. It feels like you are listening to a wise and honest teacher who is not afraid to say the truth. Ahmad explains how empires like the U.S. and other Western powers have used their strength to control and harm countries in the Middle East, South Asia, and other places. He shows the real stories behind imperialism, not the fake stories we hear in the media.

What makes this book special is how clear Ahmad is. He is not only talking about problems; he also talks about the people who fight against injustice. He has respect for these movements and believes they can bring change. His writing is not heavy or difficult. He uses humor and simple language to explain big ideas, so even complicated topics feel easy to understand.

He is critical but not bitter. Instead, he helps us see the mistakes of the past and understand how to build a better future. Even though his topics are serious, he writes with hope and confidence in the strength of ordinary people.

If you care about justice and want to learn the truth about history and power, Confronting Empire is a very inspiring book. It teaches us not to give up and to always question what we are told.

[LaShana Claude]

"These interviews provide a wonderfully focused, yet wide-ranging compendium
of Eqbal Ahmad's worldview.. . Ahmad was a courageous thinker and activist, an inspirational presence wherever progressives gathered, and a remarkable human being filled with love, humor, and generosity of spirit."


"With the voice of truth and compassion, Eqbal Ahmad weaves a tapestry of resistance- from Pakistan to Palestine, and Indonesia to Iraq. Ever challenging fanaticism and bigotry, particularly the scapegoating of Muslims and the demonization of Islam, Ahmad speaks for a vision of secular internationalism Confronting Empire is a must read for anyone concerned with issues of multiculturalism, liberty, and social justice." -Zaineb Istrabad1. Colombia University


"We have here the ideal combination for a dazzling intellectual encounter: thoughtful questions by a superb interviewer, David Barsamian- and brilliant responses by the extraordinary Eqbal Ahmad, recorded just before Ahmad's death." -Howard Zinn, Boston University

[Marianne Chaaban · Rating 5 out of 5]

amazing. Barsamian as usual asks all the right questions and Ahmad is a humble yet insanely insightful, prophetic almost in some of his foresight, and clever man who dedicated his life to his beliefs.
Fav parts:
1. Views on the PLO were interesting.
2. Also liked his criticisms, from his socialist humanist perspective mind, on the pitfalls of Marx and Engels which led to communism being done wrong at different points of history.
3. His analysis of poetry and his take on religion and secularism I identified with and enjoyed.
4. His analysis of what went wrong with decolonization

Very admirable very sweet to read very easy to understand
Amazing.

[Arif Hussain · Rating 4 out of 5]

A very interesting book and a very good way to get introduced to the basic ideas of the Scholar over a range of topics that cover almost everything. The format feels not very ideal because it is the interviewer throws questions at him and the content of is not coherent at all. however, a good read and it can be an impetus for further exploration of Eqbal and the likes of him like Edward Said, Zinn, Tagore and Chomsky.

[Lintha · Rating 5 out of 5]

What a calm, clear and lucid mind! Excellent insights into a plethora of topics on international politics (especially found the sections on orientalism, terrorism, Gandhi, Jinnah, and opinions on various regional issues very interesting). Will definitely be reading more of Eqbal’s written work.

[R. M. · Rating 4 out of 5]

Very informative, covering numerous event in recent decades and summarising them well enough that even a newcomer to political commentary - such as myself - can understand what Eqbal Ahmed is referring to.

[Kara Lessin · Rating 5 out of 5]

Read this book! And then give it to all your friends, for different but very intertwined reasons.

[Yara Hossam · Rating 4 out of 5]

What a man! He knows something about everything.

[Rohan · Rating 3 out of 5]

Didn’t like the rapid-fire “what do you think about ___ issue” interview format, but Ahmad speaks so cogently. The foreword by said is touching.

[vikram chandran · Rating 4 out of 5]

I wish the author had dug into Eqbal Ahmad's theories a little deeper on some of the issues in the book. Thought provoking, this is a quick, but very interesting read.

[Salahuddin Hourani]

ملاحظة لي: لم اقرا الكتاب بعد - صديق لادوارد سعيد - مفكر وناقد لما بعد الكولونيالية

[Devika · Rating 5 out of 5]

Such a cool book