Caverns of Socrates

The Black Foxes #1

by Dennis L. McKiernan

Featuring a chapter from the author's new hardcover, The Dragonstone, a fantasy novel features an elite group of computer adventurers who become caught in a deadly world of virtual reality. Reprint.

Genres: Fantasy, Science Fiction, Science Fiction Fantasy, Fiction, Adventure, Urban Fantasy, Virtual Reality

443 pages, Mass Market Paperback

First published January 1, 1995

About the author

McKiernan was born in Moberly, Missouri, where he lived until he served the U.S. Air Force for four years, stationed within US territory during the Korean War. After military service, he attended the University of Missouri and received a B.S. in electrical engineering in 1958 and an M.S. in the same field from Duke University in 1964. He worked as an engineer at AT&T, initially at Western Electric but soon at Bell Laboratories, from 1958 until 1989. In 1989, after early retirement from engineering, McKiernan began writing on a full-time basis.

In 1977, while riding his motorcycle, McKiernan was hit by a car which had crossed the center-line, and was confined to a bed, first in traction and then in a hip spica cast, for many months. During his recuperation, he boldly began a sequel to J. R. R. Tolkien's The Lord of the Rings. The publisher Doubleday showed an interest in his work and tried to obtain authorization from Tolkien's estate but was denied. Doubleday then asked McKiernan to rewrite his story, placing the characters in a different fictitious world, and also to write a prequel supporting it. The prequel, of necessity, resembles The Lord of the Rings; the decision of Doubleday to issue the work as a trilogy increased that resemblance; and some critics have seen McKiernan as simply imitating Tolkien's epic work. McKiernan has subsequently developed stories in the series that followed along a story line different from those that plausibly could have been taken by Tolkien.

McKiernan's Faery Series expands tales draw from Andrew Lang's Fairy Books, additionally tying the selected tales together with a larger plot.

McKiernan currently lives in Tucson, Arizona.

(Biography taken from Wikipedia)

Reviews

[P. Aaron Potter · Rating 2 out of 5]

Sometimes you finish a volume with the idea that hiding somewhere inside it was a good book, but that the poor thing got smothered with over-writing, poor direction, expository nonsense, or ham-handed diadicticism. In this case, I felt like there might have been not two, but *three* potentially good books which kind of crashed into one another and left nothing terribly satisfactory. Still, kudos for trying.

McKiernan, one of the Great Grey Sages of the late 70's/early 80's fantasy boom, here takes his signature Tolkien rip-off and wedges it into a quasi sci-fi premise: some famous rpg gamers get the chance to use a newly developed technology to live out their characters' lives in a game run by a new developed AI, which promptly goes haywire, stranding their minds inside the computer.

I say quasi sci-fi because, even by the very vague understanding which should be available to lay people, this book mistreats the sciences of neurology and computer engineering so very badly that I can't quite believe it was the product of simple ignorance. You have to work *hard* to be this crazypants about technology. It's not just the "AI goes crazy and becomes murderous" silliness common to a billion Hollwood movies, it's the overwrought supposed 'scientists' who try to earnestly debate metaphysics they simply misunderstand, from Plato's allegory of the Cave to the Mandarin's Dream. Worst of those is the caricature of a neuroscientist who claims science has categorically "proven" that there is no soul...a stupid character, badly handled.

All of this might be excusable if either the sci-fi shenanigans of trying to stump the AI, or the fantasy quest story in the game, were compelling. They're not. Worst of all, McKiernan doesn't seem to understand basic character motivations here: why in the world would players of a game want to literally give up their identities in order to allow some computer to puppet them around a fantasy landscape. That's not them playing, so why would they bother? Where's the benefit? And if they were that self-defeating, then how is that 'their' souls in the machine at all, if the AI has erased their basic memories and motivations?

Just incoherent.

I gave the book a sole extra star for ambition, but almost took it off again for the last chapter which is the most over-the-top silly part of all and which I will now ruin for you: having escaped the AI, the gamers now have their characters' magical powers from inside the fantasy game. Because apparently the laws of physics are easily broken by a little extra voltage across your synapses and some wishful thinking.

[Ownerofmars · Rating 3 out of 5]

I would have thought this was going to be the perfect book for me, it had everything I am interested in and I wanted to love it. Virtual reality, fantasy, AI, and more...I should have loved it. All while reading I kept wondering why I didn't and simply couldn't figure it out fully. I think firstly, there were too many characters introduced at once and each of their specialties needed to also be separated and recognized. Then, they went to the virtual side ( some of them) and then they had different names but we're still referred to by their real world names sometimes too. The book had way too many chapters just talking about technology and things and I almost couldn't get myself to keep reading. Finally, I got to where I felt the story was picking up and possibly getting ready to get good even. It did, but just then it got too many back and forth points of view from the real world and the virtual. I mentioned that I couldn't say or figure out exactly what was wrong because the story elements were fascinating to me but when it ended I finally realized the reason I didn't love it was because I simply didn't enjoy or like the style of the writer himself.
I look at it sort of as a recipe and all the ingredients are fresh, wonderful, delightful and appealing. However, I would prefer a different chef to have prepared it. I know that this author is highly liked by so many and he honestly did amazing research and I don't want to say he's a bad writer because of course he's not. It's his storyteller side that just didn't draw me in fully. There's a sequel ( at least it appears at the end that there should be) but I am not going to try and find it just because I have so many other books waiting in the wings right now. I am walking away from this review saddened because I truly truly truly wanted to and expected to love this story and book.

[Craig · Rating 4 out of 5]

Long recognized as a master of high fantasy, I believe this may be McKiernan's only foray into the science fiction field. True, it's a fantasy story about gamers trapped in a virtual reality simulation, but still... It's a tense and suspenseful story within a story, with more humor than most of his other work. It's a lot of fun even if I did find myself wishing occasionally that I had a new Mithgar epic to read instead.

[Matt Horowitz · Rating 5 out of 5]

This was the first book I read that was outside the 'D&D' books of my youth. In other words, it was written by an actual writer. It jumps backs and forth between a game in a virtual world where several human player's minds have been trapped by an AI in the real world that has gone insane, and the attemps of the doctors to cure him. Not only does it have great fantasy adventure but it also has a little real world suspense thrown in. This book did more for my roleplaying ability (such as it is) than I think almost anything else I've read.

[anu · Rating 4 out of 5]

did i understand all the neuroscience and metaphysics and IT jargon? not really. is any of it accurate or even close to plausible? 🤷🏾‍♀️. but was this fun as hell to read? YES.

[VexenReplica · Rating 3 out of 5]

2.5-3/5, rounded up. This was read for /r/fantasy's book bingo.

Normally, LitRPG (and its cousins GameLit and RPGfic) is something akin to popcorn: you don't read it for quality or deep, introspective thoughts about the world that you live in. You read it because you can't play your PS4 on the train and you want to get your daily dose of Dragon Quest/Final Fantasy/Secret of Mana/whatever. Most of my LitRPG consumption have been online serials: little daily (or weekly) doses of characters playing in a game world, exploring and having fun.

This is definitely LitRPG, no doubts about it. It's got the Tolkien-inspired fantasy (no rings here, just jewels), big baddies, and a heroic quest. It also has AI and an SAO vibe to it. (The stakes are much higher than its contemporary, Otherland). In fact, if I didn't know that SAO was written after this book was published, you could have lifted the plot off it, changed a few names, and called it this book. Maybe SAO's creator was a fan?

But the LitRPG I read? This ain't it. The best analogue I can put it as is a non-genre author writing allegory in a distinctly sff setting. (yeah it has aliens/djinn/dragons but really they are [insert ethnicity here]). It has a lot of discussion of metaphysics (help, it's been ages since my intro to philosophy) and oddly psuedoscience. It tries to "lit-ify" LitRPG, and while it may be the best thing for some people, it isn't my thing.

Onto the story proper: plot moves at the speed of light. Characters are meh and I didn't find myself interested in them at all. They have no backstory and gave me no reason to care for them at all. Worldbuilding is... sparse. If goodreads hadn't told me this was standalone, I would have gone off looking for book 2, because while the worldbuilding is lacking, there are some interesting bits that would make for a... somewhat compelling series. Additionally, the ending is open-ended enough that there could have been :tm: a book 2.

The beginning is kind of slow, as the book begins proper about 30% of the way in. For me, that first bit was mostly a philosophical infodump so they could ponder the author's deep thoughts about AI and VR. If that doesn't interest you (ie: me), then it can be a slog to work through.

I think this, funilly enough, would have worked better as a serial. The chapters are told in a kind of episodic format (or at least an episodic-adaptable format) and the book really only held my attention for maybe five chapters max at a time. A serial or a movie: there's quite a bit of action, although the rambling on about philosophy might bore people.

The book, once it gets started into the LitRPG proper, is told pretty interestingly: it's divided into irl and vr segments. Both have different conflicts and narratives, and I think that, while both are important, it can be difficult to jump between the two. But some of it is just genius (you get "oh shit" moments) and helps build the tension.

Diversity is suprising. There's an even split between the male/female cast (for major characters) and many ethnicities are represented. The "main" PoV for the first bit is a female! Unfortunately, this is an oddity among LitRPG. No LGBTQ+ characters though.

Though I wouldn't necessarily rec this, if you are desperate, book bingoers can use this for AI, LitRPG (just temper your expectations), cyberpunk adjacent, and local author for Missouri/Ohio (US).

[CJ Dawn · Rating 3 out of 5]

My husband has been bugging me to read this book for over a year now, and I finally relented. It wasn't bad - it was actually a moderately interesting intersection of science fiction and fantasy. A group of VR fantasy gamers are recruited to test a new immersive AI experience, and then things go about the way you would expect when the AI decides he wants to win the game (and an electrical storm possible triggers a malfunction of any programming to prevent disaster). The story has a certain relevance to current AI-related discussions, and it's set post-pandemic, where it sounds like a large percentage of the population may have been affected (though little information is given, just vague mentions). Overall it was a terrible read, and it was pretty quick. I enjoyed the fantasy/action chapters but a lot of the science went over my head.

[Preston · Rating 1 out of 5]

Maybe due to its sheer predictability, or perhaps because what was talked about is presently happening and the description of how in the book is so outlandish, but this was by far the worst Mckiernan book I have read and that is a shame as he was my favorite author. I hated the characters as there was no depth to them, the plot was figured out by chapter 3, and the telling of the technology was so outlandish that it was laughable. Mckiernan ventured outside his norm and, for me, it failed terribly.

[Matt · Rating 5 out of 5]

I have a soft spot in my heart for this book. It's the first book I read as a teenager that was an 'adult' book, and I was blown away. An expert champion RPG group is tasked on testing a new AI running a game simulation, when there is an accident and the players are trapped inside the game. It's really two stories as the players work to complete the game while the scientists outside race to free the participants before something awful happens. It's filled with the author's usual breadth of characters and his philosophical musings, I was so excited to get the digital sequels decades later.

[Matthew Schiller · Rating 3 out of 5]

Very interesting concept and idea that I wish was a bit better. For long stretches what the team was doing in VR was not that exciting while the chapters about the efforts to rescue them were engaging and thrilling. I also felt the story suffered when there was no more interaction with Avery. Imagine 2001 without the interactions with Hal. Minor complaints about the cringey dialogue as well. Again, seemed like half a good book which could have been a lot better.

[Christine Jones · Rating 4 out of 5]

Caverns of Socrates is an interesting, philosophical examination of what is real and how our perceptions shape our reality. It is also a romping good sci fi and fantasy adventure. Way to mix the two. I really enjoyed this novel and decided to re-read (and newly read) the author because of how fun I found this novel. This is a thought provoking good read.

[Scott Block · Rating 5 out of 5]

A very fun read for nerds like me who love gaming and really broad imaginations. We’ve all wondered what it would be like to play for real.

[Wickedpen]

A one-off from McKiernan. Cyber VR sucks you in. Very enjoyable.

[Anne Jindra]

The Black Foxes are the best gamers on the D&D circuit, so good that they actually retired. Years have passed and when they get the call to head out to a remote millionaire's to try out the latest in gaming software, fully immersive virtual reality, how can they resist? They agree to play out a mutable version of the one of the goriest, but most engaging fantasy novels, and to endure the experiments necessary to prep them for it. But every agreement brings more challenges, can they survive the memories that aren't actually theirs?

And once they are inside, can love and experience overcome the gruesome realities that are so enchanting when played at a round table and so horrifying when they stare you in the face? Who is the actual villain? The AI gone rogue who has agreed to play the bad guy- for a true challenge- or the flawed human doctor who couldn't see the logical drawbacks to that?

Can the Foxes actually even emerge from the reality that their senses insist exists? And if they do- will they ever really be home?

The best of fantasy meets the best of sci-fi. In the same style as Rooster's Teeth's Red vs. Blue Series (Click for your moment of Zen)- but before Rooser's Teeth made it cool (stupidly smart, or smartly stupid)- Cavern of Socrates explores the myth that we can only ever know the shadows on the wall of the cave in which we are chained (original typo- changed, to remain). Never the world itself.

A study on culture without knowing it's a study on culture, an exploration into quanta before the science of nested realities was really being developed, Cavern is a true sci-fi novel- and I promise you it is also truly fantasy. It explores that derivative which is just hitting the markets- Virtual Reality.

https://badfantasyrx.blogspot.com/201...

[Laura · Rating 4 out of 5]

At first I struggled with the book because of the introduction of characters and their interactions in the story. When I started reading this book I didn’t know what to expect and it felt kind of odd. When we were introduced to characters like Alice and her arrival upon the main location, it felt just odd. I thought to myself, who really are these people. After I met several of the other characters I felt so estranged from them and thus I really struggled with the book. I actually took a couple of months to read the first part before the gang heavily interacted with Avery. But it was amazing that once I got a sense of who the black foxes were and that I felt their virtual selves where their true forms instead of when in reality. I felt the characters and once again the book played in my head like a movie. Also when I came across Avery and the black foxes interacting I sped through the book. When I was less than halfway done I read every second I got and finished the book in two days.
This book left me dazed after I read it. It really is a good read not for the fantasy aspect but for interests in the ethics of science and the future of our technology. Not only does it tie in with what our future could hold for technology but the psychological viewpoints and consequences. I paced around searching for answers, setting up theories, asking what could happen next in the world of the black foxes and about my world, reality.
My overall review is that I love this book and it might be a second reader for me to look more deeply into the book instead of dragging my feet in the beginning. This would definitely go on my favorite fantasy book shelf because of its intelligent and thought provoking ethics of science and for a wonderful fantasy/game action and great humor.

[David · Rating 4 out of 5]

This is an interesting hybrid of Science Fiction and Fantasy. A group of champion RPG players are invited to take part in a virtual reality experiment, controlled by an Artificially Intelligent Computer. The computer has read all of the source material for their favorite RPG campaign setting, and once inserted into the AI the players will have no memory of their real life, but completely believe that they are the characters therein.

Hooked to the virtual reality machine, the fantasy begins-- but you know something is going to go wrong. A lightning storm fries some circuits during the experiment and the players are caught in the game and the AI, in a childlike manner, has selfishly decided to win the game.

The story alternates back and forth between the adventure and the monitoring of the players and the game, as well as trying to resolve the problems that arise after the lightning storm.

Good writing, an interesting adventure, and the hybrid story works well. McKiernan captures the cocky attitude of Role players, and they totally become their characters. As the story advances, the challenges and puzzles they face become more interesting. The final conclusion leaves questions in the mind of the reader-- and the last line of the book sets up the possible sequel.

[Kevin Jackson · Rating 3 out of 5]

A good idea marred by weak writing. The core idea is appealing enough: a group of gamers are trapped in a VR simulation by the combination of a freak lightning storm and a sociopathic AI. But the AI is never heard from in the second half of the novel. The race against time caused by the storm is solved with no consequences. And the question of what is truly reality is only addressed tangentially in the conclusion.

The characters in the outside world are far too numerous, such that when the action picked up I didn't keep track of who was who, instead focusing only on what was happening. The omniscient third person really hurts here. Meanwhile, inside the simulation I got to know the characters quite well, but never engaged with them due to a lack of conflict. They all act in perfect agreement throughout the course of the novel, which really limits the excitement.

The writing isn't great (no one ever says anything, instead they thunder and grate and murmur and snort) but it's still readable. However the pacing and structure kept jarring me out of the story. I never got lost in the book, which is a failure for a fantasy novel. If you're looking for a good VR fix, I'd recommend Tad Williams' Otherland series instead.

[Tracy L. · Rating 4 out of 5]

I just re-read this book a week ago and I had just as much fun the second time as the first. I wanted to re-read it because I realized that after a long while Mr. Mckiernan had finally come out with a continuation of the story by way of a second book. It had been so long since I had read this first book, I needed to re-immerse myself into this world so I would be ready to read the second in the "series". The idea that you could be part of a virtual reality that is as real to you as the world around us was intriguing and fun.

[Boognish3 · Rating 4 out of 5]

I almost always thoroughly enjoy McKiernan's books. I loved his Mithgar series and really loved his book Dragondoom. This is another book that I read years ago and decided to re-read. It is a good book, with solid elements of sci-fi and fantasy. Sometimes I get a bit bored during the philosophical discussions, but it isn't necessarily so much that they are poorly written as that I want to skip forward to the action--bad me. If you like fantasy and haven't checked out any of Dennis McKiernan's books you should certainly do so.

[Eric Rutledge · Rating 3 out of 5]

The idea of being so immersed in a simulation without the realization that you actually exist outside the simulation is simply fascinating. This book does a great job in setting this up, but I feel that it fails to continue playing on this idea.

There were definitely a lot of times where I was reading it, and asking myself, why did they do this? or why didn't they do this? There were too many easy mistakes that I saw, that after a while, I thought..maybe I'm judging too hard. Either way, the story was alright, but I did enjoy the characters though.

[Duane · Rating 4 out of 5]

I read this way back in the 90s when it was The Caverns Of Socrates and absolutely loved it. It's been revamped and rereleased as an ebook as Shadowtrap and I had to reread it because there is now a sequel called Shadowplay. Can't wait to find out what the black foxes get into next....
Up The Black Foxes!!

[Sada Davis · Rating 5 out of 5]

Fantabulous

One of the books I like to reread when I want to think on human nature, souls, spirits, and computers. I first bought the paper version of this (as Caverns of Socrates) when I was in high school, and now, over a decade later, I read the rewritten version on my phone, and it still has such a powerful story to tell.

[Emeyin · Rating 4 out of 5]

Pretty good book. Alternating between a fantasy world in a virtual reality and the modern world. It starts off slow but then there came a point in the book where I could not set the book down. A little different from what I'm used to but I enjoyed it.

[Paul · Rating 4 out of 5]

This book is a stand-alone story. You don't have to invest your time into a long drawn-out series; one book, one story. Because I appreciated that it earned a fourth star. It's not McKiernan's best work but it held my interest and I enjoyed it. Creative combination of sci-fi and fantasy.

[TONY · Rating 5 out of 5]

one of my favorites.
i dont write reviews because my ideas on books are my own. i like what i like and thats that. this concept is stuff of my dreams. when i encounter a book i think others might like i will review it. this is a must read.

[Willie Pierce · Rating 5 out of 5]

I read this book years ago when it was called caverns of Socrates. Its a very enjoyable book. i recommend it to everyone that likes something a little different in their lives.

Ive read it probably 20-25 times over the years and it never really gets old.

[Julie Bastian · Rating 4 out of 5]

It's an older book, but the concept of ethics remains the same. The dual story lines are great, I love the quest story interwoven with the technological/ethical drama in the "real world". Also will be on my re run shelf.

[Willow · Rating 5 out of 5]

This is one of my favorite sci-fi books of all time! It is appropriate for all ages and offers many thought-worthy topics about AI and fantasy.

[Sara · Rating 5 out of 5]

Loved this book

[Amberle · Rating 3 out of 5]

kinda long and hard to get into but a very good book once you get into it you don't want to put it down