Over the Wine-Dark Sea

Hellenic Traders #1

by H.N. Turteltaub

In Rhodes, Menedemos is a young, daring sea captain; and scholarly, reserved Sostratos is his cousin. Now Menedemos and Sostratos plan their largest, most audacious trading voyage yet, which will take them from the shores of Asia Minor all the way to the coasts of faraway Italy, and to confrontations with the barbarians of an obscure town called Rome. Along the way they will buy and sell wine, silks, and even to the astonishment of all, peacocks.

Genres: Historical Fiction, Fiction, Historical, Greece, Adventure, Fantasy, Greek Mythology

381 pages, Hardcover

First published July 13, 2001

About the author

Pseudonym of Harry Turtledove.

Reviews

[MB (What she read) · Rating 3 out of 5]

The book's plot itself was rather boring to me, but I don't think I've read anything else except for Tom Holt's Goatsong: A Novel of Ancient Athens and the rest of his historicals that gave me such 'a feel' for living in the ancient world.

[Jane · Rating 4 out of 5]

3.5 out of 5. 310 BC--nearly a generation after the death of Alexander the Great, while his generals are still squabbling about how to divide Alexander's Empire. Interesting and readable humorous novel of two cousins, Menedemos and Sostrates: one a sea captain and the other a quartermaster-cum-accountant, on a trading voyage from Rhodes--Greek island-hopping to the Italian mainland: Taras and other cities, buying and selling goods throughout their voyage: Chian wine, Coan silk, papyrus, ink, AND peafowl. At different points in the novel they are harried by Romans, overcome a pirate ship, take grain to Syracuse on Sicily. At that time Syracuse is fighting a war against Carthage. In Taras, each cousin has woman trouble, so much so they decide never to return there. Much ado about maintaining on shipboard and selling the peafowl and their chicks for a decent price. Banter between the two cousins, who are completely opposite in personality. Menedemos is impulsive and doesn't think ahead; Sostratos is scholarly, reserved, cautious, and does consider consequences. The author did teach us painlessly about customs of those times.

Recommended.

[Alexander Theofanidis · Rating 3 out of 5]

Το έτος είναι 310 π.Χ. και δύο νέοι, ο Μενέδημος και ο Σώστρατος, ξαδέλφια, ξεκινούν από τη Ρόδο για να εμπορευτούν στο Αιγαίο και την Ιταλία, φτάνοντας μέχρι τη Σικελία. Θα περάσουν από αρκετά λιμάνια, θα έχουν δοσοληψίες κάθε φορά με τους ντόπιους, θα κινδυνέψουν από πειρατές κι από τους -ανυπόληπτους σχετικά, ακόμα- Ρωμαίους και στο τέλος θα συμμετάσχουν και στο σπάσιμο του ναυτικού αποκλεισμού της Σικελίας από τους Καρχηδόνιους.

Οι δύο νέοι έχουν αντίθετους χαρακτήρες και αυτό αποτυπώνεται σε κάθε τους συναλλαγή, σε κάθε λιμάνι, σε κάθε ευκαιρία, χωρίς όμως να φτάνουν ποτέ στη σύγκρουση. Η εκτόνωση των διαφορών τους σταματάει στην -καλόκαρδη συνήθως- ειρωνεία, ενώ οι διαφορές τους λειτουργούν συμπληρωματικά στο σκέλος της δουλειάς. Ο Μενέδημος είναι γοητευτικός, ερωτύλος, τολμηρός, συχνά απερίσκεπτος, ενώ ο Σώστρατος συγκρατημένος/συγκροτημένος, πιο φιλοσοφημένος αλλά και λιγότερο μπασμένος στα κόλπα της ζωής και λιγότερο ικανός στη διαχείριση καταστάσεων και ανθρώπων (είτε πρόκειται για οιωνεί πελάτες, είτε για το ανθρώπινο δυναμικό της μικρής τους γαλέρας).

Παρά το γεγονός ότι δε βάζει ακριβώς "φωτιά στο χαρτί", η γραφή του Turtledove, καταφέρνει να παράξει ένα συμπαθές αποτέλεσμα και να μην καταντήσει το βιβλίο "χλαμύδα" γεμάτη ελληνικούρες και αρχαϊκούς σολοικισμούς και υπερβολές, ενώ δε λείπουν τα αποσπάσματα από Αριστοφάνη και Όμηρο (που όμως δεν κουράζουν, διάσπαρτα στο κείμενο). Αναμφίβολα, ο συγγραφέας γνωρίζει καλά την περίοδο στην οποία τοποθετεί τα γεγονότα του ή/και έχει κάνει γερή έρευνα πριν γράψει.

Ό,τι πρέπει για το καλοκαίρι, ειδικά αν δεν θέλετε να περάσετε την ώρα σας στην παραλία με αλκοολικούς αστυνομικούς από τη Νορβηγία ή κάτι αντίστοιχο.

[Araka Schroeder · Rating 3 out of 5]

Asked friends for historical fiction recommendations and was told that Harry Turtledove did a great job of rewriting history. I decided to give one of his books a try.

Had a hard time getting into this book, slow beginning. The writing style turned me off from the start. I felt like I was reading a textbook. I got the idea that our good friend Harry was more interested in showing off all the research he did to make sure his book was historically accurate than telling a story. There was a lot of technical jargon and defunct words that I had to look up to understand what I was reading. Once I accepted that the whole book would be that way, I kind of got over it. I still think it's stupid, but I was able to finish the book.

At the end, the book doesn't feel finished to me. I know what happened but I don't know what the point if it was. I guess I didn't feel like the book had a proper climax and ending. It just kind of is.

[Martin · Rating 4 out of 5]

Full review to follow . . .

[Michael Smith · Rating 1 out of 5]

When he first began writing fiction a couple of decades ago, Harry Turtledove (who is Turteltaub in his everyday suit) was quite good. A Byzantine scholar, he showed a knack for straight historicals (especially the excellent Justinian) as well as alternate history yarns with an eastern Mediterranean setting. Then he hit the big time with Guns of the South, and now he has way too many interminable series going at once, and his talent -- while considerable -- has turned out to be a finite quantity that’s stretched too thin, the result being that he’s now cranking out a great deal of very forgettable verbiage.

This story of two young cousins in 310 B.C. on a trading voyage from Rhodes to the Greek colonies in Italy is a separate book (though it now appears to have spawned its own series, unfortunately), so I had hopes for it. And there’s a lot of interesting sightseeing, but there sure isn’t much narrative tension, and hardly any point to it all. This is Turtledove in “history teacher” mode: “See, the Dorics indicated assent by dipping the head rather than by nodding and dissent by tossing the head rather than shaking it, so I’ll be sure to tell you every single time someone dips or tosses.” He also insists on rendering place names in phonetic Greek-ified English, which makes the reader uncertain what ports the guys are stopping to trade at -- ignoring the fact that this book is, in fact, written in English, so why bother with that? The main characters also spend a lot of time explaining routine points of everyday life and ship operations to each other for the benefit of the reader -- an annoying device any creative writing student learns to avoid in his first semester. Maybe I’ll just go back and reread some of Harry’s earlier books.

[Theresa G · Rating 2 out of 5]

A dull, annoying read. The main problem is the dialogue, of which there is far too much. Worse, there's a lot of expository dialogue. Much of the word count is the two main characters endlessly going back and forth, retreading the same ground. Turtledove tries to solve the admittedly difficult problem of ancient accents by using various modern ones, and it does not work at all. The Celtic ones, complete with Irish mannerisms, are the most egregious, hilariously awful. The dialogue problems are tied up with the character problems, most of which boil down to the story being way too introspective. I don't want to know the exact emotions, bluntly spelled out, that two archetypes with hair-trigger tempers feel in every scene. We spend far too much time in their heads. And the prose, which is barely serviceable, doesn't help. Turtledove latches onto certain words, and some of them simply don't work. Everything is told in a very matter of fact way, and the attempts at humor, nearly all of which are in dialogue, fall flat. Which is a real pity, because with a good narrative voice, much of the story and of the setting itself could have been played as funny, and that could have been a good book.

There are are definitely some good aspects. The difficulties and arbitrariness of navigation are portrayed well, as are the differences between the different cultures and city states. It's a fascinating period as far as social and political organization, and Turtledove captures a lot of that variation and its causes and effects. The action sequences are well done, as is the depiction of the background political situation. Overall, the journey aspect, the plot itself, succeeds, but you need good prose to write a story focused on the interior lives of boring immoral people.

[Krys · Rating 3 out of 5]

I had a love/hate relationship with this book.

First of all, I have to say that Turteltaub did an amazing job of researching this book. It portrays the daily life of a third century grecian in a vivid and realistic fashion. Many of the characters and all of the places in this book are historical, as with many of the events. Turteltaub writes beautifully.

However... the pacing of this book is not what I'd consider ideal. It's literary fiction, with some action thrown in - but the heroes' journey doesn't change them. There's no large climax. They come back as the same people they were when they left. There's no crisis of self, no growth, no drama.

They go on a journey, they see some stuff, they come home. Every challenge is tense initially, easily overcome, and they laugh about it afterwards.

I have to say I liked this book. I enjoyed reading it, though it felt slow. However, I probably won't read it again. I suspect that's a lack of sophistication on my part, because the book really is beautifully written.

I look forward to reading some of Turteltaub's work under his other pseudonyms, to see if they suit my tastes better.

[Sean · Rating 3 out of 5]

Three and a half stars. Post-Alexander Greece, but just. Two cousins from Rhodes sail about the Greek world, selling dye and wine and peacocks. Turtledove is your pervy classics professor, stiff and ill-suited for writing a novel, but god damn does he know everything about Ancient Greece. He knows about sitos and opson, about the symposium, about naval craft and practice, about politics, about trade, about the oppression of women, about slavery, about numismatics, about seafood and the rare bite of uniformly-cut meat, about philosophy and poetry. I don't know what a professional would think, but for a layman, this is a smorgasbord of Greece in a somewhat wooden but not unpleasant fictional package. I'll be reading the next installment.

Ladies, the sex scenes are cringe-worthy. FYI.

[James · Rating 2 out of 5]

A nerd and an athletic salesman set forth on a trading venture. The salesman can't control his trouser snake so they have to leave in a hurry sometimes. While women in ancient Greece didn't have the rights of modern women, this book wasn't looking for edge cases.

Might have been better as a non-fiction book.

[Solomon Zehnwirth · Rating 5 out of 5]

An excellent and satisfying historical fiction read

[Eric Mesa · Rating 3 out of 5]

This is the second time I've read this book, the first time being nearly 20 years ago when it first came out. A few key bits had stuck with me, like Menedemos' womanizing and a battle at sea. But after 20 years, most of the details had faded, so it was almost like reading it anew.

As a history geek, I found it a lot of fun to read historical fiction that isn't set in one of the traditional time periods like Victorian England or Napolean's Reign. The two characters also make great foils for each other, impulsive Menedemos and his philosopher/wannabe-historian cousin Sostratos. While it's obviously a work of fiction, it was neat to see what things are the same about humans no matter how far back you go (haggling, superstitions, balancing desire with prudence) while other things are so different (how they viewed meals, technology, gender relations).

Perhaps obviously, since the main characters are sea traders and the majority of the book takes place during the trading season, it's structured almost as a series of episodes, each taking place in a new city. There isn't a truly overarching plot and it's both metaphorically and literally about the journey, not the destination(s). The biggest narrative momentum comes from Sostratos' character growth, but even that is relatively minimal.

Overall, I think it's a pretty fun read, particularly if you're interested in ancient Greece.

[Burt · Rating 5 out of 5]

HN Turtletaub is, of course, Harry Turtledove, of alternate history fame. Under the Turtletaub name he writes historical fiction, principally the adventures of Menedemos and his cousin Sostratos, ship captain and traders on "the wine dark sea." The novels are not exactly plot-free, but they contain a wealth of information about life in the 4th century BCE. I just love them and eat up all the detail on the history of the day. I don't think many others do, but if you like this era, like to read about trade in the Med, and want to follow the adventures of a ladies man and his much more staid cousin, you just might like this series, too.

[Susan · Rating 4 out of 5]

Another era of history I am unfamiliar with - starting about 13 years after the death of Alexander the Great. This is when the Hellene world is starting to fragment with Alexander's marshalls fighting in the Eastern Mediterranean and the Carthaginians are fighting the Hellene colony at Syracuse and the Italian tribes are fighting among themselves. The Romans are not yet dominant.

The life of sea traders isn't easy. But Menedemos and his cousin Sostratos have quite a time - introducing peafowl to the socially ambitious in the colonies, haggling for good prices, avoiding pirates, warships, and jealous husbands.

[Tony · Rating 2 out of 5]

I like a decent historical novel, and having grown up around the Mediterranean, I thought this one about two traders from Rhodes circa 325 BC might be kind of fun. Cousins Menedemos and Sostratos are captain and quartermaster of the family's trading ship, and the book covers one such voyage as they hit various ports between Rhodes (right off the coast of present-day Turkey) and Sicily (then under attack by Carthage). Despite the rich possibilities for adventure, the story just kind of chugs along from port to port without any rising action or excitement. Yes, there is a fight or two (and a flight from the window of a cuckolded husband), and some light skirmishing with pirates, but the bulk of the time is spent detailing the cousins' various commercial transactions, with many protracted negotiations over the fair price for peacock chicks. 

I suppose the book has appeal to readers seeking an accessible portrayal of Hellenic life and customs of the era. There is certainly plenty of research behind it (the author has PhD in history, albeit specializing in the Byzantine era, which came about 1,000 years later) -- for example, plenty about clothing, food, and social customs. Plenty of casual sex with slave girls too -- doubtlessly accurate in deed, but the reality was probably much less of the cheeky fun vibe that the book plays it off as. The main relationship in the book is a kind of running bickering competitiveness between the cousins, which never evolves or goes anywhere interesting. Overall, kind of tedious, and it's mind-boggling to know that there are four more books in this series.

[Blind Mapmaker · Rating 4 out of 5]

4.25 A solid historical everyday novel of a roadtrip by sea following a pair of Hellenistic far traders and their galley crew through the Mediterranean. Menedemos and Sostratos are cousins who complement each other on the trading side, the character side and the POV side. The year is well-chosen and makes their encounters - or in some cases near brushes - with recorded history. The story is at times a little crude where Menedemos is concerned, but the balancing viewpoint of Sostratos is never far. At first it seems like an exclusively male Greek upper-class focus - hardly surprising given the separate spheres of unmarried men and women at the time - but Turtledove manages to include some female perspectives (although not as POV) and the main characters are both more reflective than most. In the end, we even a short perspective on disability. Hardly exceptional for modern sensibility, but nicely done for the early 2000s.

Be warned though, this is neither a thriller, nor a romance, nor a Bildungsroman (though the latter probably comes closest). There are wide stretches where nothing so much is happening. It only seems hectic by comparison if you read Turtledove's "House of Daniel" right beforehand. What really sells the novel are the small things the author uses to make a long-bygone age come to life with believable characters and quirky customs. If the next volume has a tad more in the plot department, I'd certainly go for five stars. As it is, it falls only a little short of that.

[David H. · Rating 3 out of 5]

Though known best his alternate history, this is one of Turtledove's few historical novels, following two cousins from Rhodes sailing and trading in the Mediterranean in the summer of 310 BCE. Menedemos acts as the captain, and Sostratos as his purser/supercargo in a merchant ship built more for luxury goods than anything in bulk. The geopolitical situation here was interesting, as it's set in the middle of the Wars of the Diadochi, when Alexander the Great's generals are fighting each other to dominate his former empire.

I appreciated the historical touches Turtledove added and showing the relationship between the two cousins (one bold and brash, the other more interested in history and philosophy) to show a range of experiences in the Hellenic world, though almost always from the privileged perspective of male citizens. I liked it when both cousins have certain realizations about women and slaves, though every character is definitely "of their time."

I had come across the sequel, The Gryphon's Skull, probably twenty years ago, and had always wanted to get around to reading the other books, but I think I'll stop here. It's interesting, but not that interesting, and it turns out my tolerance for repetitive conversations and late 4th century BCE trading is limited. (I also didn't like reading about enslaved prostitutes having sex with the main characters.)

[Michael · Rating 3 out of 5]

I have very mixed feelings about these books. Generally, they are not well-written but they’re also fascinating and full of aspects of history not usually written about in historical fiction set in this overall period. One on hand, the repetitious dialogue between the two main characters and the repetitious interior thoughts are utterly maddening throughout the entire series. The authors fixation and overuse of certain phrases and sentences is just exhausting.
But on the other hand, there’s tons of really great depictions of a wide array of culture, insights into the views of the common man, regional differences among Hellenes, economic realities, the relationship and knowledge these people hold about the past….the list goes on.
These books are truly packed with wonderful depictions of life in the time of the Diodochi Wars. It beautifully captures the fearful uncertainty and exasperated weariness of this quite small slice of history while the Macedonians rampage around the known world, disrupting everything!
I read these books very early in my initial deep dive into classical period, which had since expanded to include the entire BCE world, minus the imperial Roman’s and pre-Persian Egyptians.
I just finished rereading the series and my first impression of warring exasperation and delight still stands.
Each book is quite different and showcases a different aspect of life on and about the Inner Sea.
One thing I especially enjoyed was the descriptions of the trials and pleasures of sailing.

[Leonardo Etcheto · Rating 4 out of 5]

Liked the book, good style, interesting story and you learn some history along the way. I like that the main characters are traders rather than warriors. Gives the novels a more normal person focus where the historical movements are more hindrance than a source of glory.
It is easy for me to forget how brutal was the Greek worldview - might makes right. The years after Alexander are an interesting time with the Greeks feeling superior to all in both learning and fighting. The choice of Rhodes as the home city is fascinating for me because I know very little about it as a Greek city.
Lots of exposition on the ships and trade and how central they both were. Not many novels have as a key element the difference between commodities and specialty goods.

[Sky · Rating 3 out of 5]

I've read quite a few of the author's books over the years, so I'm pretty used to his style. Still, this book seemed crammed with unnecessary detail and narration of minor events and the characters' constantly repetitive thoughts. On the other hand, the setting is well-realized and the story is interesting. I have a lot of free time and I read fast, so I don't mind slow books. I have no idea how to judge if someone else would like this book, or how to recommend it. I guess if you're interested in Greek merchants sailing around the Eastern Mediterranean in the early Hellenistic age, and you have a lot of patience, then you will like this book.

[Mark · Rating 2 out of 5]

Two stars demands an explanation. Simply put, the story didn't manage to sufficiently engage my interest and I have to confess I struggled to keep going. It's just one of those things, no novel works for everyone. That said, Over the Wine-Dark Sea is a well-written book, with convincing and developed characters, and it effortlessly immerses the reader in the world of ancient Greece. The novel offers a convincing and clearly well-researched window on this period of history. Two stars for me doesn't mean it's going to be two stars for you.

[N.W. Moors · Rating 5 out of 5]

Menedemos and his cousin Sostratos are traders, the sons of merchants living in Rhodes. This is the story of one of their summer trips where they take fine goods, silks, perfumes, peacocks, and wine to sell along the western coast of Italy.
It's wonderfully historically accurate and a very entertaining read. It wasn't exactly what I expected having read a number of Mr. Turtledove's sci-fi/history books, but I enjoyed it greatly as a faithful representation of that time in the Mediterranean Sea. I'm looking forward to reading the next book in the series.

[Justin Robinson · Rating 2 out of 5]

About halfway through I realized this silly thing was going to be about two chuckleheads selling peacocks to Italians. It's not terribly written, though Turtledove does lean pretty heavily on some pet words and phrases, but I struggle to see the point. The fact that there's 5 of these things makes me wonder what the publisher could possibly be thinking. "Can they sell a peacock to Vikings? Find out next book!"

[chvang · Rating 2 out of 5]

Dull. Turtledove knows his Greek history, but neither the characters or the setting come alive. The characters don't change or learn much of anything. The places are just names.

I do like how it really hammered home just how prevalent slavery was--and how female slaves were casually used by the free men; most historical fiction gloss over that aspect of ancient history.

[Liz V. · Rating 3 out of 5]

In the aftermath of Alexander the Great's death, Rhodes was able to free itself, but the rest of the world--as Greeks knew it--was convulsed in wars amongst Alexander's generals, as well as the pirates left unpoliced and a young but strengthening Rome. Into this tenuous area venture two Rhodian cousins on their fathers' merchant ship.

[Peg · Rating 3 out of 5]

This Historical novel takes place in 310BC and chronicles the adventures of a trading ship from the Greek city of Rhodes as it travels to Italy and back. The captain is an actual historical character. The historical stuff is interesting, learning about ancient Greek life. The protagonists, the captain and his cousin, are not terrible sympathetic characters.

[Thom · Rating 4 out of 5]

I found this to be a really enjoyable piece of historical fiction. Turtledove clearly knows what he’s talking about regarding the historical background of the setting and, while I wouldn’t exactly call it action-packed, the main narrative was interesting and enjoyable. Definitely one I’d recommend for someone interested in ancient Greece.

[Desirae · Rating 3 out of 5]

If you want to take a sea voyage in 310 BC without much plot but lots of description of ports of call and shipboard life, this is what you want. Lots of technical terms are not a problem for me because I am a classicist. I read a chapter before falling asleep and the pace is just right for that.

[Megan · Rating 4 out of 5]

I didn't feel the story ever built to anything special, but was a good romp all the way through. Just normal people leading (relatively) normal lives. I felt immersed in the time and place.

[Jim · Rating 4 out of 5]

Good read.