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Le livre du ça
Dans Le Livre du ça, paru en 1923, Georg Groddeck adresse une série de lettres à une interlocutrice imaginaire. Il entend vulgariser les idées de Freud grâce à cette correspondance. On découvre au fil des pages le rapport complexe et contradictoire que l'auteur a noué avec la psychanalyse ; en effet, il la met en question dans la manière même dont il l'expose. "Psychanalyste sauvage" selon sa propre expression, Groddeck déploie à sa façon l'explication freudienne du symptôme comme symbolisation d'un désir inconscient. Toute maladie est création, expression d'un dynamisme inconscient. Le "ça" est cette force de vie, principe quasi métaphysique qui se manifeste à travers les productions individuelles, saines ou pathologiques, indissociablement psychiques "et" somatiques.
Freud ne retiendra du "ça" de Groddeck que son nom. Ce dont parle toutefois cette philosophie du "ça" aux accents parfois mystiques, c'est du "corps" comme réalité symbolique, ce qui a valu à Groddeck d'être reconnu par Freud comme un "superbe analyste qui a saisi l'essence de la chose sans plus pouvoir la perdre". --Emilio Balturi
350 pages, Mass Market Paperback
First published January 1, 1923
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Displaying 1 - 18 of 18 reviews
February 21, 2011
This book was written nearly ninety years ago, and yet it still avant garde. This book should be required reading in every medical school. Groddeck's main thesis is that we are animated by a powerful unconscious process he calls the IT. Illness is not some unwanted accident, but an expression of some inner need of the It. The cure to any illness must come from the patient who must understand the role of these unconscious forces in the expression of the illness. Unlike our sick culture's view of the doctor as technician, Groddeck saw his role as a physician to be more akin to a midwife, who helps the patient bring out these unconscious drives and so find healing.
Groddeck was both influenced by and also influenced Freud who developed the idea of the It into the Id. But Groddeck was more compassionate and modest than Freud. He also ridiculed our dualistic separation between mind and body, and saw analysis as a tool to cure "physical" illnesses, and good diet and care as a cure for "mental" illnesses.
Those who have been brainwashed by rigid and mindless scientism might scoff at Groddeck. However, anyone with an open mind and heart must be impressed by his profound humanism and deep insights into the human condition.
Groddeck was both influenced by and also influenced Freud who developed the idea of the It into the Id. But Groddeck was more compassionate and modest than Freud. He also ridiculed our dualistic separation between mind and body, and saw analysis as a tool to cure "physical" illnesses, and good diet and care as a cure for "mental" illnesses.
Those who have been brainwashed by rigid and mindless scientism might scoff at Groddeck. However, anyone with an open mind and heart must be impressed by his profound humanism and deep insights into the human condition.
July 6, 2018
"Quando ci si è rinchiusi molto a lungo in una camera stretta, buia, soffocante, per paura che gli altri di fuori ci possano deridere o sgridare, e poi si esce all'aria aperta, scoprendo che nessuno si occupa di noi, e che al massimo qualcuno ci guarda per un momento e poi continua tranquillamente per la sua strada, allora quasi si impazzisce di gioia."
July 22, 2007
i picked up this book from my favorite book sale outlet because the words "health and disease" leaped out to me from the blurb which said: "[Groddeck} discusses the whole problem of health and disease from a metaphysical point of view, and with an ironic refusal to dogmatize or tidy his views into a system". and when i read the introduction by Lawrence Durell, i was all the more enticed to read the thesis of Groddeck, whom Durell seemed to be describe as a self-effacing, self-aware man, whose "first job, he considered, was to heal." (Durell thinks that the obscurity of the author's works and teachings was self-imposed)
at the risk of you thinking that i only really read the introduction, i am again going to quote Durell: " He (Groddeck) took the view that the doctor really knows nothing, and of himself can do nothing, that he should therefore interfere as little as possible..."
this depiction of the author, i find, is consistent with the author's words and writing style - of course, i only read a translation. now i wish i could have read and understood the original and german.
i used to think that nothing i read, or see or hear can shake my faith, but this book had me having second thoughts on my moral and spiritual beliefs. i had to deliberately stop reading halfway through it because i was beginning to be bothered by the way i understood the author's ideas and discussions on the complexes - electra, oedipus and on onanism, etc. i can imagine this book (again, the way i understood it) being banned by the church, if it weren't for its obscurity (thank God).
i am contemplating on picking the book up again and finishing it - in the hope of finding something that would someone very dear to me. i went to the marked page where i stopped reading, and there was groddeck's engaging writing style, and picking up the book was like seeing a dear friend again.
at the risk of you thinking that i only really read the introduction, i am again going to quote Durell: " He (Groddeck) took the view that the doctor really knows nothing, and of himself can do nothing, that he should therefore interfere as little as possible..."
this depiction of the author, i find, is consistent with the author's words and writing style - of course, i only read a translation. now i wish i could have read and understood the original and german.
i used to think that nothing i read, or see or hear can shake my faith, but this book had me having second thoughts on my moral and spiritual beliefs. i had to deliberately stop reading halfway through it because i was beginning to be bothered by the way i understood the author's ideas and discussions on the complexes - electra, oedipus and on onanism, etc. i can imagine this book (again, the way i understood it) being banned by the church, if it weren't for its obscurity (thank God).
i am contemplating on picking the book up again and finishing it - in the hope of finding something that would someone very dear to me. i went to the marked page where i stopped reading, and there was groddeck's engaging writing style, and picking up the book was like seeing a dear friend again.
June 1, 2015
Un libro come migliore amico. Assaporato con gusto in ogni pagina. A tratti rivelatore, sfacciato, diretto, un po' troppo fantasioso nel descrivere l'Es come fonte e cura di ogni male. Sicuramente impossibile che venga apprezzato da tutti per i temi trattati: l'odio nascosto presente in qualsiasi madre per il proprio figlio, simbolismi sparsi ovunque, complessi d'Edipo radicati nell'anima, l'inutilità di definirsi "eterosessuali" o "omosessuali" poiché sono solo costruzioni della società per sentirsi più in colpa, ecc...
Insomma... un libro che, se capita nelle mani sbagliate, e soprattutto, come dice Groddeck "se non si è sinceri con se stessi conoscendosi", verrebbe denigrato e ridicolizzato.
Brava Luisa per il bel regalo che ti sei fatto!
" Sulla pederastia incombe la minaccia del carcere, essa è stigmatizzata come un crimine, è considerata da secoli come un vizio ignominoso. Il fatto che la gran maggioranza degli uomini non ne veda l'esistenza, si spiega in virtù di questo secolare divieto. Ma anche quelli che sanno quanto sia universalmente diffusa l'omosessualità, son ben lungi dal riuscire a giudicarla spassionatamente; e anche chi ne avrebbe il coraggio preferisce tacere piuttosto che mettersi a lottare contro la stupidità della gente"
... e l'omosessualità non è l'unico argomento per cui si preferisce tacere a causa della stupidità della gente...
Insomma... un libro che, se capita nelle mani sbagliate, e soprattutto, come dice Groddeck "se non si è sinceri con se stessi conoscendosi", verrebbe denigrato e ridicolizzato.
Brava Luisa per il bel regalo che ti sei fatto!
" Sulla pederastia incombe la minaccia del carcere, essa è stigmatizzata come un crimine, è considerata da secoli come un vizio ignominoso. Il fatto che la gran maggioranza degli uomini non ne veda l'esistenza, si spiega in virtù di questo secolare divieto. Ma anche quelli che sanno quanto sia universalmente diffusa l'omosessualità, son ben lungi dal riuscire a giudicarla spassionatamente; e anche chi ne avrebbe il coraggio preferisce tacere piuttosto che mettersi a lottare contro la stupidità della gente"
... e l'omosessualità non è l'unico argomento per cui si preferisce tacere a causa della stupidità della gente...
January 25, 2025
[...]Οἱ ἄνθρωποι πού μισοῦν τή μητέρα τους δέν κάνουν παιδιά αὐτό ἀληθεύει τόσο πού στα στείρα ζευγάρια μπορείς να στοιχηματίσεις μέ σιγουριά πώς ἕνας ἀπ' τούς δυό συζύγους ἐχθρεύεται τή μητέρα του. Οταν μισεῖς τή μητέρα σου, φοβᾶσαι τό παιδί σου, γιατί ὁ ἄνθρωπος ζεῖ μέ τό ἀξίωμα: «Ο,τι κάνεις, λάβεις».[...]
June 12, 2025
"E il mio Es mi dice con voce forte e chiara: Interpreta, interpreta!"
October 29, 2019
The book is nice that shows you, thats sometimes sickness comes from us.
I am not sure if the it(es) should be hold as a God. This can you read in the book.
Knyga faina tuo, kad parodo kad mūsų ligos tarnauja kartais mums. Jos turi priežastį ir dažnai būna jos ateina iš mūsų paichikos. Nežinau ar Tai(es) reiktų laikyti Dievu, nes iš knygos susidaro įspūdis, kad pasąmonė turi nežmoniškų galių.
I am not sure if the it(es) should be hold as a God. This can you read in the book.
Knyga faina tuo, kad parodo kad mūsų ligos tarnauja kartais mums. Jos turi priežastį ir dažnai būna jos ateina iš mūsų paichikos. Nežinau ar Tai(es) reiktų laikyti Dievu, nes iš knygos susidaro įspūdis, kad pasąmonė turi nežmoniškų galių.
October 24, 2015
Good counterpoint to Freud.
November 26, 2020
Ammazza quanto interpretava Groddeck!
Carino, un classico della psicoanalisi.
Carino, un classico della psicoanalisi.
November 11, 2025
AN EXPOSITION OF THE IDEAS OF A NEAR-CONTEMPORARY OF FREUD
Georg Groddeck (1866-1934) was a German physician whose work had some influence on Freud (particularly in Freud’s concepts of the ‘Id’ and the ‘Ego’).
Lawrence Durrell wrote in his Introduction to this 1923 book, “Groddeck was the only analyst whose views had some effect on Freud; and Freud’s ‘The Ego and the Id’ is a tribute to, though unfortunately a misinterpretation of, Groddeck’s ‘IT’ theory… Groddeck, while he accepts and employs much [of Freud]… [he] is separated forever from Freud by an entirely different conception of the constitution and functioning of the human psyche… fundamentally he did not share Freud’s views upon the nature of the forces within the human organism which make for health or sickness. And this is the domain in which the doctrines of Groddeck and of Freud part company… Groddeck emerges as a natural philosopher, as incapable of separating body and mind as he is incapable of separating health from the disease… for Groddeck the whole psyche with its inevitable dualisms seemed merely a function of … an unknown quantity---which he chose to discuss under the name of the ‘It.’ [‘Es’ in German.]” (Pg. v-vi)
Groddeck wrote the book in the form of a series of letters to an imaginary female friend [who he refers to as ‘Fair lady’ and ‘my dear’], signing the letters as ‘Patrik Troll.’
In Letter II, he explains, “I hold the view that man is animated by the Unknown, that there is within him an ‘Es,’ an ‘It,’ some wondrous force which directs both what he himself does, and what happens to him. The affirmation ‘I live’ is only conditionally correct, it expresses only a small and superficial part of the fundamental principle, ‘Man is lived by the It.’ With this Unknown, this It, my letters will be concerned.” (Pg. 11)
He suggests, “If we like, we can think of life as a masquerade at which we don a disguise, perhaps many different disguises, at which nevertheless we retain our own proper characters, remaining ourselves amidst the other revelers in spite of our disguise, and from which we depart exactly as we were when we came...’ (Pg. 13)
He ends this letter, “what I am trying to say in all my ramblings: the IT, that mysterious something which dominates us, is just as careless of the distinction of sex as it is of differences in age. And with that I think I shall at least have given you some idea of the irrationality of its nature. Perhaps you will also realize how it is that I am sometimes so womanish as to want to bear a child…” (Pg. 19)
In Letter IV, he states, “if giving birth is really a sensuous pleasure, why then have the paths of birth been misrepresented as never-to-be-forgotten woe?... now and again I have met a mother who has said to me, ‘The birth of my child, in spite of all the pain, or rather because of it, was the most beautiful experience I have ever had.’ Perhaps… that woman … can never be quite sincere about her feelings, because it is her destiny through life to have to abominate sin. But how people come to connect sex-pleasure with sin will never be fully explained.” (Pg. 37)
In Letter VI, he says, “I do not know whether I have yet succeeded in making clear to you the great significance of the transference… Do not forget that I am speaking about the It, that nothing is so sharply defined as the words would seem to imply… man has within him a certain amount of emotional capacity … Now there can be no doubt about one thing: the greatest part of this amount of emotion, nearly the whole of it, man bestows upon himself. Another part, relatively small yet extremely important in life, can be directed toward the outer world… everything connected with life can be used by man as an object of affection or repulsion.” (Pg. 55-56)
In Letter VIII, he wrote, “Frieda had not only turned against her mother during her pregnancy, but she had formed so surprising an attachment to her father that even now… she still dwells on it. There you have the Oedipus complex of which you must have heard already… By the Oedipus complex is understood the passion felt by the child for the parent of the opposite sex… mother and daughter are always and without exception rivals and therefore are endowed with the reciprocal hatred of rivals.” (Pg. 71)
In Letter XIII, he asserts, “Illness has a purpose; it has to resolve the conflict, to repress it, or to prevent what is already repressed from entering consciousness; it has to punish a sin against a commandment, and in doing that it goes so far that one can draw conclusions as to the time, the place, and the nature of the sin that is to be punished, by considering the time, the place, and the nature of the illness… In other words, sickness, every sickness, whether it is called ‘organic’ or ‘nervous,’ and death, too, are just as purposeful as playing the piano, striking a match, or crossing one’s legs. They are a declaration from the It, clearer, more effective than speech could be, yes, more than the whole of the conscious life can give. ‘Tat van asi,’ [‘That art thou’]” (Pg. 101)
In Letter XIV, he states, “the life of man is governed by the Oedipus complex… its application to your own life, to mine, to anybody’s else, you must make for yourself. But you must not lose patience; the life of the unconscious is hard to decipher and know I make nothing of a few mistakes.” (Pg. 104)
In Letter XVIII, he asserts, “That the rite of circumcision really has become connection with castration I am inclined to believe, since its inception is associated with the name of Abraham… at some time or other there has been substituted the sacrifice of an animal… Circumcision accordingly would be the symbolic remnant of the religious castration … castration and circumcision are … indeed identical, for to me… the fact first became clear comparatively late, that a castrated man, a eunuch, is something distinct from a circumcised man.” (Pg.141-142)
In Letter XXVI, he says, “So the playing with numbers interests you, my dear? I am glad to hear that… that you even quote further examples, pointing out that 13 is the number who partook of the Last Supper,and connecting the fear that the 13th guest at the table must die with the death of Christ upon the Cross, gives me hope that your opposition to my It-talk will gradually disappear… Has it never surprised you how closely the two conceptions, Christ and Judas, are interwoven?” (Pg. 192)
In Letter XXXI, he recounts, “When I was working for a few months in a hospital for the wounded, I tested my amateur, ‘wild’ analysis---which I still stand by---and saw that wounds and broken bones responded to the analysis of the It in just the same way as nephritis or heart failure or a neurosis.” (Pg. 231)
This book may interest people studying the development of psychoanalysis.
Georg Groddeck (1866-1934) was a German physician whose work had some influence on Freud (particularly in Freud’s concepts of the ‘Id’ and the ‘Ego’).
Lawrence Durrell wrote in his Introduction to this 1923 book, “Groddeck was the only analyst whose views had some effect on Freud; and Freud’s ‘The Ego and the Id’ is a tribute to, though unfortunately a misinterpretation of, Groddeck’s ‘IT’ theory… Groddeck, while he accepts and employs much [of Freud]… [he] is separated forever from Freud by an entirely different conception of the constitution and functioning of the human psyche… fundamentally he did not share Freud’s views upon the nature of the forces within the human organism which make for health or sickness. And this is the domain in which the doctrines of Groddeck and of Freud part company… Groddeck emerges as a natural philosopher, as incapable of separating body and mind as he is incapable of separating health from the disease… for Groddeck the whole psyche with its inevitable dualisms seemed merely a function of … an unknown quantity---which he chose to discuss under the name of the ‘It.’ [‘Es’ in German.]” (Pg. v-vi)
Groddeck wrote the book in the form of a series of letters to an imaginary female friend [who he refers to as ‘Fair lady’ and ‘my dear’], signing the letters as ‘Patrik Troll.’
In Letter II, he explains, “I hold the view that man is animated by the Unknown, that there is within him an ‘Es,’ an ‘It,’ some wondrous force which directs both what he himself does, and what happens to him. The affirmation ‘I live’ is only conditionally correct, it expresses only a small and superficial part of the fundamental principle, ‘Man is lived by the It.’ With this Unknown, this It, my letters will be concerned.” (Pg. 11)
He suggests, “If we like, we can think of life as a masquerade at which we don a disguise, perhaps many different disguises, at which nevertheless we retain our own proper characters, remaining ourselves amidst the other revelers in spite of our disguise, and from which we depart exactly as we were when we came...’ (Pg. 13)
He ends this letter, “what I am trying to say in all my ramblings: the IT, that mysterious something which dominates us, is just as careless of the distinction of sex as it is of differences in age. And with that I think I shall at least have given you some idea of the irrationality of its nature. Perhaps you will also realize how it is that I am sometimes so womanish as to want to bear a child…” (Pg. 19)
In Letter IV, he states, “if giving birth is really a sensuous pleasure, why then have the paths of birth been misrepresented as never-to-be-forgotten woe?... now and again I have met a mother who has said to me, ‘The birth of my child, in spite of all the pain, or rather because of it, was the most beautiful experience I have ever had.’ Perhaps… that woman … can never be quite sincere about her feelings, because it is her destiny through life to have to abominate sin. But how people come to connect sex-pleasure with sin will never be fully explained.” (Pg. 37)
In Letter VI, he says, “I do not know whether I have yet succeeded in making clear to you the great significance of the transference… Do not forget that I am speaking about the It, that nothing is so sharply defined as the words would seem to imply… man has within him a certain amount of emotional capacity … Now there can be no doubt about one thing: the greatest part of this amount of emotion, nearly the whole of it, man bestows upon himself. Another part, relatively small yet extremely important in life, can be directed toward the outer world… everything connected with life can be used by man as an object of affection or repulsion.” (Pg. 55-56)
In Letter VIII, he wrote, “Frieda had not only turned against her mother during her pregnancy, but she had formed so surprising an attachment to her father that even now… she still dwells on it. There you have the Oedipus complex of which you must have heard already… By the Oedipus complex is understood the passion felt by the child for the parent of the opposite sex… mother and daughter are always and without exception rivals and therefore are endowed with the reciprocal hatred of rivals.” (Pg. 71)
In Letter XIII, he asserts, “Illness has a purpose; it has to resolve the conflict, to repress it, or to prevent what is already repressed from entering consciousness; it has to punish a sin against a commandment, and in doing that it goes so far that one can draw conclusions as to the time, the place, and the nature of the sin that is to be punished, by considering the time, the place, and the nature of the illness… In other words, sickness, every sickness, whether it is called ‘organic’ or ‘nervous,’ and death, too, are just as purposeful as playing the piano, striking a match, or crossing one’s legs. They are a declaration from the It, clearer, more effective than speech could be, yes, more than the whole of the conscious life can give. ‘Tat van asi,’ [‘That art thou’]” (Pg. 101)
In Letter XIV, he states, “the life of man is governed by the Oedipus complex… its application to your own life, to mine, to anybody’s else, you must make for yourself. But you must not lose patience; the life of the unconscious is hard to decipher and know I make nothing of a few mistakes.” (Pg. 104)
In Letter XVIII, he asserts, “That the rite of circumcision really has become connection with castration I am inclined to believe, since its inception is associated with the name of Abraham… at some time or other there has been substituted the sacrifice of an animal… Circumcision accordingly would be the symbolic remnant of the religious castration … castration and circumcision are … indeed identical, for to me… the fact first became clear comparatively late, that a castrated man, a eunuch, is something distinct from a circumcised man.” (Pg.141-142)
In Letter XXVI, he says, “So the playing with numbers interests you, my dear? I am glad to hear that… that you even quote further examples, pointing out that 13 is the number who partook of the Last Supper,and connecting the fear that the 13th guest at the table must die with the death of Christ upon the Cross, gives me hope that your opposition to my It-talk will gradually disappear… Has it never surprised you how closely the two conceptions, Christ and Judas, are interwoven?” (Pg. 192)
In Letter XXXI, he recounts, “When I was working for a few months in a hospital for the wounded, I tested my amateur, ‘wild’ analysis---which I still stand by---and saw that wounds and broken bones responded to the analysis of the It in just the same way as nephritis or heart failure or a neurosis.” (Pg. 231)
This book may interest people studying the development of psychoanalysis.
January 20, 2025
Se cercate delle lettere di psicanalisi in generale, non comprate questo libro, non commettete il mio errore, però grazie a questo errore ho conosciuto un nuovo personaggio da inserire nel mio background di saggi psicologici, sicuramente sarebbe sbagliato iniziare da questo per conoscere Groddeck, però non mi ha deluso, seppur ci ho messo 2 mesi a finirlo. Di certo non il miglior libro che io abbia mai letto, ma offre spunti interessanti e visionari per il tempo (es. omosessualità, bibbia e altro ancora)
June 6, 2021
Credo di essere troppo devota alla scienza per poter apprezzare queste cav.. ehm.. teorie.
Forse, ma dico forse, se a uno viene il callo dello scrittore é perché ha scritto troppo, as simple as that. No, invece il callo, e l'uremia, e il cancro e tutte le malattie sono un gioco del nostro Es perverso. Mah.
Forse, ma dico forse, se a uno viene il callo dello scrittore é perché ha scritto troppo, as simple as that. No, invece il callo, e l'uremia, e il cancro e tutte le malattie sono un gioco del nostro Es perverso. Mah.
November 15, 2025
Interessant om de gedachtengang van toen te lezen omtrent ons onderbewustzijn.
Hoewel er heel wat achterhaald is en de vergelijkingen vergezocht( eveneens teveel gelinkt aan het seksuele) blijft het feit staan dat ons onderbewuste met ons communiceert via ziektes.
Genoten van de schrijfstijl, daarom 3 sterren
Hoewel er heel wat achterhaald is en de vergelijkingen vergezocht( eveneens teveel gelinkt aan het seksuele) blijft het feit staan dat ons onderbewuste met ons communiceert via ziektes.
Genoten van de schrijfstijl, daarom 3 sterren
May 4, 2022
Interesting:)
May 13, 2022
A dir poco straordinario.
July 16, 2025
illuminante!
Read
November 23, 2015What a weird book! Arduous in a good way, can only take the Freudian cuckoolook in small doses. But yeah, what's driving us is beyond our comprehension/below our consciousness? Wacky.
February 18, 2025
Libro molto utile a comprendere la situazione moderna, affascinante quanto innovativo nella sua essenza.
Displaying 1 - 18 of 18 reviews