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Conversations of Goethe
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This work is in the public domain in the United States of America, and possibly other nations. Within the United States, you may freely copy and distribute this work, as no entity (individual or corporate) has a copyright on the body of the work.
Scholars believe, and we concur, that this work is important enough to be preserved, reproduced, and made generally available to the public. To ensure a quality reading experience, this work has been proofread and republished using a format that seamlessly blends the original graphical elements with text in an easy-to-read typeface.
We appreciate your support of the preservation process, and thank you for being an important part of keeping this knowledge alive and relevant.
448 pages, Paperback
First published January 1, 1836
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About the author
Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
13.3k books6,950 followersA master of poetry, drama, and the novel, German writer and scientist Johann Wolfgang von Goethe spent 50 years on his two-part dramatic poem
Faust
, published in 1808 and 1832, also conducted scientific research in various fields, notably botany, and held several governmental positions.
George Eliot called him "Germany's greatest man of letters... and the last true polymath to walk the earth." Works span the fields of literature, theology, and humanism.
People laud this magnum opus as one of the peaks of world literature. Other well-known literary works include his numerous poems, the Bildungsroman Wilhelm Meister's Apprenticeship and the epistolary novel The Sorrows of Young Werther .
With this key figure of German literature, the movement of Weimar classicism in the late 18th and early 19th centuries coincided with Enlightenment, sentimentality (Empfindsamkeit), Sturm und Drang, and Romanticism. The author of the scientific text Theory of Colours , he influenced Darwin with his focus on plant morphology. He also long served as the privy councilor ("Geheimrat") of the duchy of Weimar.
Goethe took great interest in the literatures of England, France, Italy, classical Greece, Persia, and Arabia and originated the concept of Weltliteratur ("world literature"). Despite his major, virtually immeasurable influence on German philosophy especially on the generation of Georg Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel and Friedrich Wilhelm Joseph von Schelling, he expressly and decidedly refrained from practicing philosophy in the rarefied sense.
Influence spread across Europe, and for the next century, his works inspired much music, drama, poetry and philosophy. Many persons consider Goethe the most important writer in the German language and one of the most important thinkers in western culture as well. Early in his career, however, he wondered about painting, perhaps his true vocation; late in his life, he expressed the expectation that people ultimately would remember his work in optics.
George Eliot called him "Germany's greatest man of letters... and the last true polymath to walk the earth." Works span the fields of literature, theology, and humanism.
People laud this magnum opus as one of the peaks of world literature. Other well-known literary works include his numerous poems, the Bildungsroman Wilhelm Meister's Apprenticeship and the epistolary novel The Sorrows of Young Werther .
With this key figure of German literature, the movement of Weimar classicism in the late 18th and early 19th centuries coincided with Enlightenment, sentimentality (Empfindsamkeit), Sturm und Drang, and Romanticism. The author of the scientific text Theory of Colours , he influenced Darwin with his focus on plant morphology. He also long served as the privy councilor ("Geheimrat") of the duchy of Weimar.
Goethe took great interest in the literatures of England, France, Italy, classical Greece, Persia, and Arabia and originated the concept of Weltliteratur ("world literature"). Despite his major, virtually immeasurable influence on German philosophy especially on the generation of Georg Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel and Friedrich Wilhelm Joseph von Schelling, he expressly and decidedly refrained from practicing philosophy in the rarefied sense.
Influence spread across Europe, and for the next century, his works inspired much music, drama, poetry and philosophy. Many persons consider Goethe the most important writer in the German language and one of the most important thinkers in western culture as well. Early in his career, however, he wondered about painting, perhaps his true vocation; late in his life, he expressed the expectation that people ultimately would remember his work in optics.
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Displaying 1 - 30 of 56 reviews
October 2, 2018
It is a delightful book. I cannot help giving this book full five stars (This feels weird, though, to give such books stars).
I like every page of the book. Right at the beginning, Eckermann writes about his impoverished childhood and his realization that he is gifted.
Later in the Book, we learn how he gets in touch with Goethe. The book is written in the form of journal entries. He meets Goethe often and they talk about other writers, books, and so forth. These are indeed delightful moments. Eckermann's fascination with Goethe is absolute. He sees a lot in him; sometimes it feels like Goethe resides inside him.
It is also wonderful to read about Jena, Weimar and such small historical towns. No matter where one lives in the world, one is drawn to the world that the writer describes. I feel nostalgic about the place, and those meetings where the young meet the established. Eckermann's meetings with Goethe are full of warmth. I loved listening to their talks.
I am also inclined to read a bit more about Goethe after I finished reading this book. Although he is known for his love for women, there is enough about him in his own words, and in the words of others, which indicate his same-sex leanings. Throughout his life, even though he loved women, he never gave himself to anyone – including his first love. However, he always had great male friends. For instance, the Duke of Weimar was really enchanted with him, and he with the Duke. They would spend a lot of time together hunting. Their bonding was so strong that it had annoyed the ministers in the Duke's staff as if the young poet might taint their Duke. He lived the better part of his life in Weimar against the wishes of his father. I wonder if anyone researched about his male friends such as the Duke of Weimar.
However, I am not at all suggesting that Goethe relationship with Eckermann was homosexual, not at all. It is very clear that Eckermann admires Goethe for his work. He probably feels complete in Goethe's company. What fascinates me about the book is how Goethe emerges in the book. For instance, it is interesting to note that Goethe was a huge admirer of Winkelmann, and very often in the book, he speaks very highly of Lord Byron. In fact, Byron had met Goethe on several occasions. As for Winkelmann, after living in Italy for several years when he travelled back to Germany, Goethe as a young man was on cloud nine and waited for him like a lover (that is how Walter Pater wrote about Goethe and Winkelmann in his wonderful book 'The Renaissance').
The book is written in a wonderful language. One thing I would like to do soon is to go and see Weimar. I admire Eckermann's sensibility. The book is as much about Goethe as it is about Eckermann. Admiring someone else for his/ her talent is very often about the admirer.
I like every page of the book. Right at the beginning, Eckermann writes about his impoverished childhood and his realization that he is gifted.
Later in the Book, we learn how he gets in touch with Goethe. The book is written in the form of journal entries. He meets Goethe often and they talk about other writers, books, and so forth. These are indeed delightful moments. Eckermann's fascination with Goethe is absolute. He sees a lot in him; sometimes it feels like Goethe resides inside him.
It is also wonderful to read about Jena, Weimar and such small historical towns. No matter where one lives in the world, one is drawn to the world that the writer describes. I feel nostalgic about the place, and those meetings where the young meet the established. Eckermann's meetings with Goethe are full of warmth. I loved listening to their talks.
I am also inclined to read a bit more about Goethe after I finished reading this book. Although he is known for his love for women, there is enough about him in his own words, and in the words of others, which indicate his same-sex leanings. Throughout his life, even though he loved women, he never gave himself to anyone – including his first love. However, he always had great male friends. For instance, the Duke of Weimar was really enchanted with him, and he with the Duke. They would spend a lot of time together hunting. Their bonding was so strong that it had annoyed the ministers in the Duke's staff as if the young poet might taint their Duke. He lived the better part of his life in Weimar against the wishes of his father. I wonder if anyone researched about his male friends such as the Duke of Weimar.
However, I am not at all suggesting that Goethe relationship with Eckermann was homosexual, not at all. It is very clear that Eckermann admires Goethe for his work. He probably feels complete in Goethe's company. What fascinates me about the book is how Goethe emerges in the book. For instance, it is interesting to note that Goethe was a huge admirer of Winkelmann, and very often in the book, he speaks very highly of Lord Byron. In fact, Byron had met Goethe on several occasions. As for Winkelmann, after living in Italy for several years when he travelled back to Germany, Goethe as a young man was on cloud nine and waited for him like a lover (that is how Walter Pater wrote about Goethe and Winkelmann in his wonderful book 'The Renaissance').
The book is written in a wonderful language. One thing I would like to do soon is to go and see Weimar. I admire Eckermann's sensibility. The book is as much about Goethe as it is about Eckermann. Admiring someone else for his/ her talent is very often about the admirer.
August 18, 2010
It's hard to say what's so great about Goethe. One could list all the arts and sciences that he contributed to, but looking honestly at those contributions, none seems to have really remained of fruitful interest to our time, at least not here in the US. Perhaps the way his influence is currently most felt here is through Waldorf schools, which are based on Rudolph Steiner's theories, which were elaborations of Goethe's. But while Waldorf schools seem to do a great job of helping kids turn into good human beings, one can't say they're a major cultural force. Faust? I rarely see references to it; selling one's soul to the devil in exchange for pleasure isn't of much concern to a culture that tends to confound pleasure with nearness to God. Goethe himself believed that his theories about color would be of most lasting value to the world, but these theories seem to be simply irrelevant nowadays, though curiously not disproved.
And yet Goethe was a great man. This will be as clear as a vast and cloudless sky to anyone who reads the conversations that he had with, and that were diligently recorded by, his protege and friend, Johann Eckermann.
The first sign of Goethe's greatness is his enormous capacity to love and attentively notice the works and people whom he perceives as excellent. Goethe pays homage to writers (Schiller, Lord Byron, Voltaire, many others), visual artists (most of whom aren't well known now), statesmen (the local Duke whom he loved and served, and, bafflingly but especially, Napoleon), and scientists (Humboldt, others). Goethe is sharp in rebuking anyone who suggests that he is, or that anyone but "a thoroughly crazy and defective artist" could be, free from influences, i.e. "a self-made man." Goethe strongly asserts that every act is the result of many influences, and the finer the act (the finer the art), the more richly and deeply was it influenced. The finest act (the finest art) is indeed hardly attributable to the person who did (made) it at all, but rather becomes an expression of something superhuman, which he calls "the daemonic spirit." This is all discussed with enormous playfulness, geniality, and modesty, the second, third, and fourth signs of Goethe's greatness. Also there are lots of contradictions here in Goethe's thinking, which he is aware of but doesn't seem to mind terribly: sign of greatness #5.
The sixth sign of Goethe's greatness is his belief in what must be called, for lack of a more precise word, magic. It seems that Goethe didn't commit to any particular religion, nor did he make up one of his own, yet he certainly wasn't a materialist. I think he didn't see a reason to codify, or even to discuss at any length, what for him was a living experience. He simply took pleasure in his sense of "the divine" in nature and rejoiced in others' ability to do so too. Thankfully, this "divine in nature" never becomes overwrought or forced, but always feels quite simple and even somewhat peculiar, as it should, given the differences between the land from which he arose and that of most readers.
The seventh sign of Goethe's greatness is that he could become hilariously surly when discussing his detractors, but he preferred, and usually attained, serenity. I especially enjoyed his comments when asked why he didn't help defend Germany during the Napoleonic wars. This is clearly a sour subject for Goethe, but he doesn't try to weasel out of it. He says that he did more than enough for his country by writing great poems, and that, furthermore, a great poet like himself is a citizen of the world so can bear no enmity toward other nations, especially a nation as cultured as France. This surely unpopular explanation for his pacifism is actually scoffed at in an editorial footnote in my edition of Conversations and might still be controversial today.
Also relevant to today are Goethe's criteria for judging art, though we would apply to movies his thoughts about theater and to pop music his thoughts about poetry. Goethe (again with many contradictions) loved what was excellent, genuine, and uplifting. He was the first to distinguish classical and romantic art: "I call the classic healthy, and the romantic sickly. Most modern productions are romantic -- not because they are new, but because they are weak, morbid, and sickly. And the antique is classic, not because it is old, but because it is strong, fresh, joyous, and healthy." But later: "Classic and romantic...are equally good: the only point is to use these forms with judgment, and to be capable of excellence -- you can be absurd in both, and then one is as worthless as the other." Eighth sign of greatness: developed this fascinating trope but was unenslaved by it.
So there are my eight signs of Goethe's greatness; I'm sure a more perceptive reader could add to the list. Conversations with Goethe is worth the occasional minor eye-glaze caused by many references to people most of us won't have heard of. It's a lively encounter with a great man in the last year of his long, deep life. Perhaps his views will see a resurgence in popularity someday. That would not be a bad thing for any of us.
And yet Goethe was a great man. This will be as clear as a vast and cloudless sky to anyone who reads the conversations that he had with, and that were diligently recorded by, his protege and friend, Johann Eckermann.
The first sign of Goethe's greatness is his enormous capacity to love and attentively notice the works and people whom he perceives as excellent. Goethe pays homage to writers (Schiller, Lord Byron, Voltaire, many others), visual artists (most of whom aren't well known now), statesmen (the local Duke whom he loved and served, and, bafflingly but especially, Napoleon), and scientists (Humboldt, others). Goethe is sharp in rebuking anyone who suggests that he is, or that anyone but "a thoroughly crazy and defective artist" could be, free from influences, i.e. "a self-made man." Goethe strongly asserts that every act is the result of many influences, and the finer the act (the finer the art), the more richly and deeply was it influenced. The finest act (the finest art) is indeed hardly attributable to the person who did (made) it at all, but rather becomes an expression of something superhuman, which he calls "the daemonic spirit." This is all discussed with enormous playfulness, geniality, and modesty, the second, third, and fourth signs of Goethe's greatness. Also there are lots of contradictions here in Goethe's thinking, which he is aware of but doesn't seem to mind terribly: sign of greatness #5.
The sixth sign of Goethe's greatness is his belief in what must be called, for lack of a more precise word, magic. It seems that Goethe didn't commit to any particular religion, nor did he make up one of his own, yet he certainly wasn't a materialist. I think he didn't see a reason to codify, or even to discuss at any length, what for him was a living experience. He simply took pleasure in his sense of "the divine" in nature and rejoiced in others' ability to do so too. Thankfully, this "divine in nature" never becomes overwrought or forced, but always feels quite simple and even somewhat peculiar, as it should, given the differences between the land from which he arose and that of most readers.
The seventh sign of Goethe's greatness is that he could become hilariously surly when discussing his detractors, but he preferred, and usually attained, serenity. I especially enjoyed his comments when asked why he didn't help defend Germany during the Napoleonic wars. This is clearly a sour subject for Goethe, but he doesn't try to weasel out of it. He says that he did more than enough for his country by writing great poems, and that, furthermore, a great poet like himself is a citizen of the world so can bear no enmity toward other nations, especially a nation as cultured as France. This surely unpopular explanation for his pacifism is actually scoffed at in an editorial footnote in my edition of Conversations and might still be controversial today.
Also relevant to today are Goethe's criteria for judging art, though we would apply to movies his thoughts about theater and to pop music his thoughts about poetry. Goethe (again with many contradictions) loved what was excellent, genuine, and uplifting. He was the first to distinguish classical and romantic art: "I call the classic healthy, and the romantic sickly. Most modern productions are romantic -- not because they are new, but because they are weak, morbid, and sickly. And the antique is classic, not because it is old, but because it is strong, fresh, joyous, and healthy." But later: "Classic and romantic...are equally good: the only point is to use these forms with judgment, and to be capable of excellence -- you can be absurd in both, and then one is as worthless as the other." Eighth sign of greatness: developed this fascinating trope but was unenslaved by it.
So there are my eight signs of Goethe's greatness; I'm sure a more perceptive reader could add to the list. Conversations with Goethe is worth the occasional minor eye-glaze caused by many references to people most of us won't have heard of. It's a lively encounter with a great man in the last year of his long, deep life. Perhaps his views will see a resurgence in popularity someday. That would not be a bad thing for any of us.
August 12, 2009
Goethe hated spectacles so much that he went out of his way not to speak to bespectacled people. Also, you know Harold Bloom's theory of the anxiety of influence? What about Thomas Kuhn's theory of the structure of scientific revolutions? Yep. Goethe came up with both of those and they're right here in this book!
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August 31, 2015"Na njemu se videlo da se odmara u samom sebi i da se izdigao iznad pohvale i pokude."
Tako da je i svako zvezdičanje sa moje strane nesuvislo i bespredmetno. :-)
Tako da je i svako zvezdičanje sa moje strane nesuvislo i bespredmetno. :-)
Want to read
January 5, 2017Free download available at Project Gutenberg.
September 27, 2015
If you are interested in the history and culture of Goethe's time (1749-1832), as I am, this is well worth reading. Having read some of Goethe's works it was interesting to find out about his plans, intentions and influences.
What does make this an occasionally uncomfortable read is the very uneven relationship between Eckermann and Goethe. After having known each other for three months, having spent most of that time apart and not communicating, Goethe asks Eckermann to stay in Weimar, not just for a while but for his whole life. And Eckermann accepts because as long as he can have Goethe he'll be happy.
Goethe continues to tell Eckermann what he should and shouldn't do and Eckermann continues to idolize Goethe and fail to see even one tiny flaw in him. They don't ever come close to connecting as equals. Also despite Eckermann's effort to portray Goethe in the most flattering light possible, Goethe comes across as quite conceited and full of himself at times.
What does make this an occasionally uncomfortable read is the very uneven relationship between Eckermann and Goethe. After having known each other for three months, having spent most of that time apart and not communicating, Goethe asks Eckermann to stay in Weimar, not just for a while but for his whole life. And Eckermann accepts because as long as he can have Goethe he'll be happy.
Goethe continues to tell Eckermann what he should and shouldn't do and Eckermann continues to idolize Goethe and fail to see even one tiny flaw in him. They don't ever come close to connecting as equals. Also despite Eckermann's effort to portray Goethe in the most flattering light possible, Goethe comes across as quite conceited and full of himself at times.
July 30, 2017
Eckermann faz um trabalho notável ao nos mostrar Goethe com toda a riqueza e complexidade da personalidade do príncipe da poesia alemã. É um mergulho nos pensamentos, idéias e opiniões de um dos grandes escritores do Ocidente. Mas, mais do que um escritor, Goethe era um sábio, um homem que conheceu profundamente as pessoas e o mundo ao seu redor, e que, mesmo nos últimos anos de vida, estava sempre aprendendo, sempre buscando compreender, de maneira sensível e inteligente, as questões que lhe eram postas. Era um dínamo, uma força viva da natureza, que espraiou sua influência sobre as mais diversas pessoas nos mais diversos recantos da Europa. Uma das maiores personalidades de artista de todos os tempos, senão a maior. Goethe merece todas as nossas homenagens e sincera admiração.
November 16, 2016
Goethe was one of the most famous and greatest writers who ever lived and this incredible book is an insight into his life and thoughts at an old age, one where he was nonetheless fully aware and writing the second part of Faust. The book contains the memories of conversations between Goethe and Eckermann, who was assisting him in various ways with his legacy. In the book, Goethe discusses a wide variety of topics from literature to science, and comes across as probably the most elevated and cultured person whom I have ever encountered.
Virtually every page is filled with Goethe's insight and genius, which is of the highest order (to use a phrase perhaps he would use). It's hard to say exactly what my favorite parts were, his comments on other authors are always brilliant, his advice to other writers, his comments on his prior works, his discussions about science and his theories of color, but perhaps most remarkable was his discussion of his ongoing progress on the second part of Faust, which took him six years to write. I also particularly liked the various excursions he took with Eckermann, whether to neighboring towns or up into the mountains. It also portrays this incredible literary world which frankly filled me with pangs of jealousy, particularly the various homages he receives from other artists, most notable a chest full of literary goodies from the great artist David in France. The various Ambassadors and German royalty that visit, as well as other famous writers and artists, and the dinner parties and concert parties they hold, describe a world that seems unfathomable in its richness. The near-constant discussion of theater (which has odd similarities to how we talk about movies) is also fascinating and his advice to dramatists as well as poets should also be considered.
Concepts such as "elevated" and "cultured" and "highest order" have been shot down in our modernist era, and yet here you have Goethe, one of the greatest writers of all time, describing literature (and the world) in that sense. I felt while reading this that this moment in time and place was the true pinnacle of civilization and everything has been downhill since (like some would say classical music after Beethoven). Sometimes the book made me realize just how human great artists are, and yet other parts were so rich and profound I felt this enormous gulf between myself and Goethe.
I recommend this book for anyone, especially writers of any sort and people involved in the theater. I would recommend reading both parts of Faust and probably some of his other works beforehand. I had only read Wilhelm Meister, but The Sorrows of Young Werther is mentioned frequently, as are many of his poems, dramas (Tasso and Iphigenia) and other works. You might want to read some Schiller as well, "Robbers" in particular. Lord Byron is a big favorite of Goethe. He says a truly cultured person has read the Greeks, and some of the Romans, and Shakespeare and Moliere.
This was a great book to read towards the end of the Powys project. Goethe is truly a giant (and Faust is part of Columbia's core curriculum, although it wasn't when I was there). He had a wide range of interests from literature in all its forms (poetry, drama and novels) and science (he was a well known botanist and was interested in the science of colors). The book had a lot of personal meaning for me; he was someone who I truly admire and hope to emulate in the remainder of my life. Having such a direct insight into someone so brilliant and incredible is a treat (Boswell's "Life of Johnson" is not quite at the same level), how rare it is that we get to sit at the table of the Muses, and hear what they have to say and think.
April 22, 2016
This is the book Nietzsche called the best book in the German language, the Conversations with Goethe of Eckermann, three books that Eckermann compiled from notes and diaries detailing their almost daily discussions during the last few years of Goethe's life -
For me, the first two books out of three are too direct, too fawning, Eckermann was clearly loving Goethe, and some of that feeling is reciprocated. Goethe complains about how some contemporary writer is bad in this or that way, then Eckermann comes up with an example of how Goethe did that thing much better in one of his plays, and then both vehemently agree for a page or two.
You have to see it this way: a young, self-taught guy from a poor background who has never finished any schooling or higher degree, who yearns for a career in the arts meets a famous man at the end of his life, a man whose time in the mainstream is over, who is maybe yearning for some attention from the younger German generations. The third book is much better, written a few years after Goethe's death, there's more distance between Eckermann and Goethe which leads to a cooler description of what was going on. The first two books spend so much time on Eckermann and Goethe agreeing that I'm surprised there's no slash fiction out there.
Some notes:
- Goethe's theory of color keeps on appearing over and over again (tl;dr: light doesn't consist of all colors, but colors appear when darkness and light mix) - Goethe was very angry that the "crowning achievement of his life" was being ignored by the mainstream. There are some fun implications for philosophy of science, and general crank-ism in there. A good theory doesn't explain phenomena, it predicts them; when Goethe's theory's predictions failed, he explained these failures away by saying that the eye is subjective, it "wants to see what it sees". Only a few pages later he complains about how no-one wants to "let go" of Newton's theory of color, but he couldn't do that with his own theory... Goethe - Kunstwerk des Lebens states that Goethe was gifted a prism which would have dispelled his theory, but there's not a word about it here. The other scientific research, for example into the metamorphosis of plants, worked out better - his methods and concepts like homology vs. analogy are still in use.
- It's interesting how often Lord Byron appears - nowadays probably more known as the father of Ada Lovelace, one of the pioneers of computing. Goethe was immensely impressed with Byron, and he discusses Byron's successes and failures over and over again, the most discussed artist here. Schiller appears often too, for obvious reasons.
- I was easily lost in discussions between Eckermann and Goethe about their contemporary literature, much of which has been forgotten - have you ever read anything by August Hagen? Or August von Kotzebue, Friedrich August Wolf, Johann Gottfried Herder, St. Schütze (and many similar ones)? Me neither!
- You get a "making of" of Faust 2, which Goethe finished with Eckermann's help in the last few years of his life, including some insights into what Goethe thought about certain elements of the play (there's no specific symbolism behind the names of the characters Baucis and Philemon, just that their situation is vaguely similar to the characters in Ovid's writing), or how much Goethe owed to the Greeks, he kept on returning to Greek drama his entire life.
- It's also interesting how extremely confident Goethe was. Sometimes, that worked out immensely in his favor, you can't just write that many poems, plays, novels, and publish in several sciences without believing in what you're doing. In other times it didn't help - it doesn't look like he could admit errors (theory of colors, again). I wish I could be this much into my own work!
- lots and lots of interesting thoughts on arts, and on his work, the role of Germany, too much to fit in here. Goethe spent his whole life trying to perfect his life, his outlook and his personality, this gave me the first insight into why he's such a revered personality in Germany, and why Nietzsche loved him so much: Goethe was someone who never stopped improving himself. Goethe's personal philosophy of life and religion still has a lot to offer.
Anyway, once you get past all the fawning there are some extremely interesting thoughts and concept to be found here, and I really got to understand why Goethe is still such a towering figure in German culture.
For me, the first two books out of three are too direct, too fawning, Eckermann was clearly loving Goethe, and some of that feeling is reciprocated. Goethe complains about how some contemporary writer is bad in this or that way, then Eckermann comes up with an example of how Goethe did that thing much better in one of his plays, and then both vehemently agree for a page or two.
You have to see it this way: a young, self-taught guy from a poor background who has never finished any schooling or higher degree, who yearns for a career in the arts meets a famous man at the end of his life, a man whose time in the mainstream is over, who is maybe yearning for some attention from the younger German generations. The third book is much better, written a few years after Goethe's death, there's more distance between Eckermann and Goethe which leads to a cooler description of what was going on. The first two books spend so much time on Eckermann and Goethe agreeing that I'm surprised there's no slash fiction out there.
Some notes:
- Goethe's theory of color keeps on appearing over and over again (tl;dr: light doesn't consist of all colors, but colors appear when darkness and light mix) - Goethe was very angry that the "crowning achievement of his life" was being ignored by the mainstream. There are some fun implications for philosophy of science, and general crank-ism in there. A good theory doesn't explain phenomena, it predicts them; when Goethe's theory's predictions failed, he explained these failures away by saying that the eye is subjective, it "wants to see what it sees". Only a few pages later he complains about how no-one wants to "let go" of Newton's theory of color, but he couldn't do that with his own theory... Goethe - Kunstwerk des Lebens states that Goethe was gifted a prism which would have dispelled his theory, but there's not a word about it here. The other scientific research, for example into the metamorphosis of plants, worked out better - his methods and concepts like homology vs. analogy are still in use.
- It's interesting how often Lord Byron appears - nowadays probably more known as the father of Ada Lovelace, one of the pioneers of computing. Goethe was immensely impressed with Byron, and he discusses Byron's successes and failures over and over again, the most discussed artist here. Schiller appears often too, for obvious reasons.
- I was easily lost in discussions between Eckermann and Goethe about their contemporary literature, much of which has been forgotten - have you ever read anything by August Hagen? Or August von Kotzebue, Friedrich August Wolf, Johann Gottfried Herder, St. Schütze (and many similar ones)? Me neither!
- You get a "making of" of Faust 2, which Goethe finished with Eckermann's help in the last few years of his life, including some insights into what Goethe thought about certain elements of the play (there's no specific symbolism behind the names of the characters Baucis and Philemon, just that their situation is vaguely similar to the characters in Ovid's writing), or how much Goethe owed to the Greeks, he kept on returning to Greek drama his entire life.
- It's also interesting how extremely confident Goethe was. Sometimes, that worked out immensely in his favor, you can't just write that many poems, plays, novels, and publish in several sciences without believing in what you're doing. In other times it didn't help - it doesn't look like he could admit errors (theory of colors, again). I wish I could be this much into my own work!
- lots and lots of interesting thoughts on arts, and on his work, the role of Germany, too much to fit in here. Goethe spent his whole life trying to perfect his life, his outlook and his personality, this gave me the first insight into why he's such a revered personality in Germany, and why Nietzsche loved him so much: Goethe was someone who never stopped improving himself. Goethe's personal philosophy of life and religion still has a lot to offer.
Anyway, once you get past all the fawning there are some extremely interesting thoughts and concept to be found here, and I really got to understand why Goethe is still such a towering figure in German culture.
July 10, 2015
To begin, after 79 pages, I held a conference with myself and elected not to finish Conversations of Goethe. And after sleeping on my decision, nothing changed.
Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, poet, dramatist, novelist, translator, scientist, and musician, is recognized as the last universal genius of the West, and I looked very much forward to getting to know him via "being in his presence," as quips about the book promised. This did not prove to be the case, as though Goethe's assistant, Johann Peter Eckermann took detailed notes of his meetings with Goethe over a nine-year period, from 1823 to Goethe's death in 1832, and then worked assiduously over a twelve-year period to transcribe them into the text of the book, his nineteenth-century style of writing unfortunately struck me as dry. Many individuals, some of major importance, some not, are also present at times during Eckermann's meetings with Goethe, which range in duration from a few minutes to almost an entire day, many of whom did not actually interact with Goethe, Eckermann pointing out that Goethe was a very good listener. This complicated my effort to gain insight into Goethe as a person, and to learn what he thought about various subjects, from countries, to writing styles, to politics etc..
At Page 79, not quite twenty-five percent of the book, I asked myself if I was learning much about Goethe, and the answer was: not a great deal. Moreover, I was not enjoying the book, and the small font used by the publisher added to the struggle to look forward to the next page. With so many books available that both entertain and educate, and so little time to read them all, I decided that discretion was indeed the better part of valor, especially as I approach my seventy-fifth birthday next month.
I do want to add that from the introduction, Johann Peter Eckermann was a most admirable person and scholar. Born into a poor family, he did not receive the benefits of much formal education, and through hard work turned himself into an educated man and poet. And having studied German literature and philosophy, and decided that his hero was Goethe, Johann Peter's devotion to Goethe in assisting him to complete certain works and order others before his death was truly admirable when the amount of self-sacrifice on his part is taken into consideration. After meeting Eckermann, and deciding that his talents were well suited to assisting him, Goethe did forward Johann Peter's book of poems to a publisher with the recommendation that they be published, which occurred. Thereafter, however, during the next nine years they worked together, Goethe did not pay Eckermann, Johann Peter subsisting on tutoring lessons he gave. Only one year before his death, did Goethe draw up a contract that made Eckermann the editor of his completed works, with a small percentage of the royalties to come from their publication. Because of his poor economic conditions, Eckermann delayed marrying his fiancee for ten years, and they struggled to live thereafter on his meager earnings. Johann Peter never complained, but instead relished being part of Goethe's life, and assisting him. And after Goethe passed, though broken in health, Eckermann labored continuously to create Conversations of Goethe. I salute him for his total dedication to art, both Goethe's and his own.
Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, poet, dramatist, novelist, translator, scientist, and musician, is recognized as the last universal genius of the West, and I looked very much forward to getting to know him via "being in his presence," as quips about the book promised. This did not prove to be the case, as though Goethe's assistant, Johann Peter Eckermann took detailed notes of his meetings with Goethe over a nine-year period, from 1823 to Goethe's death in 1832, and then worked assiduously over a twelve-year period to transcribe them into the text of the book, his nineteenth-century style of writing unfortunately struck me as dry. Many individuals, some of major importance, some not, are also present at times during Eckermann's meetings with Goethe, which range in duration from a few minutes to almost an entire day, many of whom did not actually interact with Goethe, Eckermann pointing out that Goethe was a very good listener. This complicated my effort to gain insight into Goethe as a person, and to learn what he thought about various subjects, from countries, to writing styles, to politics etc..
At Page 79, not quite twenty-five percent of the book, I asked myself if I was learning much about Goethe, and the answer was: not a great deal. Moreover, I was not enjoying the book, and the small font used by the publisher added to the struggle to look forward to the next page. With so many books available that both entertain and educate, and so little time to read them all, I decided that discretion was indeed the better part of valor, especially as I approach my seventy-fifth birthday next month.
I do want to add that from the introduction, Johann Peter Eckermann was a most admirable person and scholar. Born into a poor family, he did not receive the benefits of much formal education, and through hard work turned himself into an educated man and poet. And having studied German literature and philosophy, and decided that his hero was Goethe, Johann Peter's devotion to Goethe in assisting him to complete certain works and order others before his death was truly admirable when the amount of self-sacrifice on his part is taken into consideration. After meeting Eckermann, and deciding that his talents were well suited to assisting him, Goethe did forward Johann Peter's book of poems to a publisher with the recommendation that they be published, which occurred. Thereafter, however, during the next nine years they worked together, Goethe did not pay Eckermann, Johann Peter subsisting on tutoring lessons he gave. Only one year before his death, did Goethe draw up a contract that made Eckermann the editor of his completed works, with a small percentage of the royalties to come from their publication. Because of his poor economic conditions, Eckermann delayed marrying his fiancee for ten years, and they struggled to live thereafter on his meager earnings. Johann Peter never complained, but instead relished being part of Goethe's life, and assisting him. And after Goethe passed, though broken in health, Eckermann labored continuously to create Conversations of Goethe. I salute him for his total dedication to art, both Goethe's and his own.
March 5, 2011
imagine conversations, that span a nine year period of time, between a bright young man and one of the greatest minds in the history of Western civilization nearing the end of his life. Now imagine that the vast and fertile expanse of those conversations have been meticulously recorded and condensed into a book and Conversations of Goethe is what you would have.
It is an intimate experience that brings such a lofty figure as Goethe down to earth and allows you to picture him as if he were sitting and conversing in the same room as you.
The extent and variety of topics is astonishing and a good grasp of art, poetry, literature, geology, natural science, astronomy, the Bible, dreams, ethics, botany, opera, freedom, immortality, government, love, war, mind over body, architecture, writers, philosophy, and many more subjects will go a long way in helping to appreciate the insight and wisdom contained in this book.
Anyone who wants to consider themselves well-read should at the very least explore some of the entries on topics of interest to them. It is a book that I will be going back to again and again throughout my life and, with each new reading, it will grow in richness in proportion to how much I have grown and learned has an individual.
"The best German book there is." - Friedrich Nietzsche
It is an intimate experience that brings such a lofty figure as Goethe down to earth and allows you to picture him as if he were sitting and conversing in the same room as you.
The extent and variety of topics is astonishing and a good grasp of art, poetry, literature, geology, natural science, astronomy, the Bible, dreams, ethics, botany, opera, freedom, immortality, government, love, war, mind over body, architecture, writers, philosophy, and many more subjects will go a long way in helping to appreciate the insight and wisdom contained in this book.
Anyone who wants to consider themselves well-read should at the very least explore some of the entries on topics of interest to them. It is a book that I will be going back to again and again throughout my life and, with each new reading, it will grow in richness in proportion to how much I have grown and learned has an individual.
"The best German book there is." - Friedrich Nietzsche
April 1, 2013
Fascinerend boek om te lezen. De orakelende Goethe op zijn praatstoel staat garant voor grootse inzichten gelardeerd met wat pedante kortzichtigheid en eigendunk. Notulist Eckermann vouwt bijkans dubbel van bewondering, terwijl hij vrijwel constant de grote meester bevestigd in zijn mening. Nog idioter staat het wanneer Eckermann het nodig acht een compleet betoog van Goethe over, bijvoorbeeld, de Schone Kunsten af te sluiten met de melding dat hij, het braafste jongetje van de klas, in ieder geval van zins is de wijze les in zijn oren te knopen.
Maar juist daarom is het boek zo goed. Het verschaft de lezer inzicht in een visie op de wereld die simpelweg niet meer bestaat. Alsof het een soort ouderwetse rit per postkoets betreft, krijg je als lezer onderweg zowel intieme inkijkjes als grootse panorama's voorgeschoteld. Naarmate de rit vordert, en de gesprekspartners meer op elkaar ingespeeld raken, bekruipt je het gevoel dat er ergens tussen de regels door een grote waarheid doorgegeven wordt; dat de gesprekken een bepaald einddoel hebben, maar je slaagt er nooit in er precies de vinger op te leggen.
Maar juist daarom is het boek zo goed. Het verschaft de lezer inzicht in een visie op de wereld die simpelweg niet meer bestaat. Alsof het een soort ouderwetse rit per postkoets betreft, krijg je als lezer onderweg zowel intieme inkijkjes als grootse panorama's voorgeschoteld. Naarmate de rit vordert, en de gesprekspartners meer op elkaar ingespeeld raken, bekruipt je het gevoel dat er ergens tussen de regels door een grote waarheid doorgegeven wordt; dat de gesprekken een bepaald einddoel hebben, maar je slaagt er nooit in er precies de vinger op te leggen.
September 27, 2023
Worth reading, but certainly not a top book. What a strange, uneven relationship Eckermann had with the God of German literature. Goethe is solidly present of course: strong and manipulative, Eckermann is all devotion. Much about literature and art, what did you expect. Goethe was quite obsessive about his own color theory. At the end there's a strong focus on the editing of his biographical writings and bequeathed works; Goethe never stopped bullying Eckermann around. Foremost an historical, more than a literary document. rating 2.5 stars
July 15, 2013
ECKERMANN'S CONVERSATIONS WITH GOETHE—-FROM THE WORLD LITERATURE FORUM RECOMMENDED CLASSICS AND MASTERPIECES SERIES VIA GOODREADS—-ROBERT SHEPPARD, EDITOR-IN-CHIEF
For those of us who come from the English-speaking world the best initial path of approach to Eckermann's Conversations with Goethe is to think of it as the German equivilant to James Boswell's epic biography, The Life of Life of Samuel Johnson. Both works are hailed as not only invaluable accounts of their respective great men of letters, but have come to be valued as great masterpieces of literary biography and independent literary works in their own right. In addition, for those of us with a special interest in World Literature, Eckermann's Conversations also records Goethe's definitive delineation of his concept of the emergence of World Literature, using the German term he coined to define his concept "Weltliteratur."
Johann Peter Eckermann, like James Boswell came to his calling as a witness and literary biographer of Goethe as a young unknown man encountering a long-renown literary titan towards the end of his life and career. Boswell met Johnson in a London bookshop owned by a mutual friend in 1763, when Boswell was just twenty-four years old and Johnson was internationally famous at the age of fifty-four. Eckermann met Goethe at Weimar in 1823 when he was just dropping his studies in law at the University of Gottingen at the age of thirty-one in hopes of finding a literary career, and Goethe was at seventy-four the acknowledged universal genius of European letters for half a century. Both men became intimate friends and scrupulous recorders of the conversations of their principals, in Boswell's case for the next 22 years until Johnson's death, and in Eckermann's case for an ensuing 9 years until Goethe's death in 1832 of which he gives a moving account.
Both are sometimes chided for looking on their respective great men with the idolizing eyes of comparative youth, rather than the more seasoned eyes of a true contemporary of similar age and equal experience. While undoubtedly true in some respect, even this supposed fault may be seen as a strength rather than a weakness as their sense of awe fixated and concentrated their energies over many years and imbued each with a weighty mission charged with a sense of responsibility to history and the world, inspiring them to keep meticulous verbatim notes of conversations, records of life events and intimate recordings of their own impressions and observations of their subjects and their respective milieus.
Eckermann's first meeting with Goethe was both dramatic and the most fateful event of his life. He came from a poor family and served as a soldier in the Napoleonic wars. After mustering out of the army with little education he obtained a scholarship that allowed him to complete the Gymnasium and enter the University of Goettingen to study law at his father's urging. Like Goethe, however, he discovered that literature and not law was his personal calling and he abandoned that career when his scholarship moneys came to an end. Having written his first unpublished book on poetry, including Goethe's contributions to German poetics, he send the manuscript to Goethe seeking assistance in its publication. After waiting long months and having no response and his money coming to a final end he sold his possessions and abandoned his flat and set out on foot to seek a personal interview with the sage in Weimar, sending a letter in advance but receiving no appointment. It was for Eckermann a reckless last chance.
Upon arrival he gained entry to Goethe's home and was told to wait in the common room. After two hours, the seventy-three year old European icon entered the room in an elegant blue frock coat and sat opposite him, saying: "I have just come from you!"-----meaning that he had just come from reading Eckermann's manuscript which he had not had time to look at before. Eckermann began to try to explain his work, but Goethe stopped him, saying "There is no need to explain----I have been reading your work all morning and it needs no recommendation---it recommends itself and I accept both it and you."
Forthwith, without having made any request of him Goethe informed Eckermann that he was not only arranging for his book's immediate publication but offering him a position as his private secretary and putting him in charge of his library and managing his literary papers and records. He informed Eckermann that he had already sent to the town to arrange housing and effects for him, effectively taking charge of his life! For the next nine years until Goethe's death he would be in daily contact and conversation with the great Sage of Weimar and record not only their own conversations, but the long literary conversations Goethe undertook with his endless visitors, many them the greatest minds and writers of the age, producing an invaluable near verbatim record of innumberable historic dialogues with the faithfulness and fervor that Plato recorded the words of his revered Socrates.
I deeply recommend reading this seminal work, hailed by even a mind as profound as Nietzsche as the finest work he had read. Here are Goethe's thoughts on Byron, Carlyle, Delacroix, Hegel, Shakespeare, and Voltaire, as well as his views on art, architecture, astronomy, the Bible, Chinese literature, criticism, dreams, ethics, freedom, genius, imagination, immortality, love, mind over body, sculpture, and much, much more. Eckermann's Conversations allows Goethe to engage the reader in a voice as distinct and authentic as it is entrancing, along with the not inconsiderable insights, observations and reflections of the biographer himself.
World Literature Forum also recommends the Conversations from its special perspective, as one of the most seminal and influential works in our canon introducing and delineating the very concept of World Literature, or "Weltliteratur," as Goethe termed it.
Speaking to his young disciple in January 1827, the seventy-seven-year-old Goethe first used his newly minted term "Weltliteratur," which upon publication of the Conversations passed into common international currency:
"I am more and more convinced," Goethe remarked,"that poetry is the universal possession of mankind, revealing itself everywhere and at all times in hundreds and hundreds of men . . . I therefore like to look about me in foreign nations, and advise everyone to do the same. National literature is now a rather unmeaning term; the epoch of world literature is at hand, and everyone must strive to hasten its approach."
Indeed, for Eckermann Goethe becomes the living embodiment of world literature, even of world culture as a whole. In the same passage he records Goethe's remark that "the daemons, to tease and make sport with men, have placed among them single figures so alluring that everyone strives after them, and so great that nobody reaches them"; Goethe names Raphael, Mozart, Shakespeare, and Napoleon as examples."I thought in silence,"Eckermann adds, "that the daemons had intended something of the kind with Goethe--he is a form too alluring not to be striven after, and too great to be reached"
Notwithstanding all his pride in his own achievements and those of his countrymen like Schiller, Goethe had an uneasy sense that German culture was in fact provincial, lacking a great history, and as he lived before German unification after 1870,lacking political unity. He can't afford to grant "national literature" too much meaning, since he didn't even live in a proper nation at all, and he saw all of Europe and the world globalizing rapidly beyond even that anticipated acheivement.
He urged his fellow German writers to be more international and global in their perspectives: "there is being formed a universal world literature, in which an honorable role is reserved for us Germans. All the nations review our work; they praise, censure, accept, and reject, imitate and misrepresent us, open or close their hearts to us. All this we must accept with equanimity, since this attitude, taken as a whole, is of great value to us."
Going even further, Goethe was one of the first great Western minds to take a truly global perspective. Eckerman records one episode:
"Dined with Goethe. 'Within the last few days, since I saw you,' said he, 'I have read many things; especially a Chinese novel, which occupies me still and seems to me very remarkable.'"
"Chinese novel!" said I; "that must look strange enough." "Not so much as you might think," said Goethe; "the Chinese think, act, and feel almost exactly like us; and we soon find that we are perfectly like them, except that all they do is more clear, pure, and decorous, than with us."
"With them all is orderly, citizen-like, without great passion or poetic flight; and there is a strong resemblance to my Hermann and Dorothea, as well as to the English novels of Richardson."
"'But then,' I said, 'is this Chinese novel perhaps one of their most superior ones?'"
It was then in reply to this reservation that Goethe shared with him the concept of Weltliteratur quoted above:
"By no means," said Goethe; "the Chinese have thousands of them, and had when our forefathers were still living in the woods...............I am more and more convinced," he continued, "that poetry is the universal possession of mankind . . . the epoch of world literature is at hand, and everyone must strive to hasten its approach."
Eckermann's final entry in the Conversations centers on discussion of the Bible. He had just bought a copy but was annoyed to find that it lacks the Apocrypha. Goethe commented that the Church erred in closing the canon of scripture, as God's creative work still continues, notably in the activity of great spirits like Mozart, Raphael, and Shakespeare, "who can draw their lesser contemporaries higher," an observation perhaps applicable to other self-enclosed fundamentalist sources such as the Koran, Torah and Sutras. Following these words--the last words of Goethe's that Eckermann records--a one-line paragraph appears: "Goethe fell silent. I, however, preserved his great and good words in my heart."
What then does Goethe, speaking through Eckermann's Conversations have to teach us in the English-speaking world of the 21st Century?
Just as he tried to teach the German-speaking world of the 19th Century, he urges us to outgrow our national provincialisms, join in forging a global perspective, an openness to the traditions and genius of all the world's cultures and literatures while preserving the unique roots and inherent genius of each and our own, and to take intellectual leadership in forging a common World Literature as the common heritage of mankind and a central contribution in our era of Globalization, to the forging and participation in the Universal Civilization and common culture of our planet.
For a fuller discussion of the concept of World Literature you are invited to look into the extended discussion in the new book Spiritus Mundi, by Robert Sheppard, one of the principal themes of which is the emergence of World Literature:
For Discussions on World Literature and Literary Criticism in Spiritus Mundi: http://worldliteratureandliterarycrit…
http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/17…
Robert Sheppard
Editor-in-Chief
World Literature Forum
http://robertalexandersheppard.wordpr…
Author, Spiritus Mundi Novel
http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/17…
Copyright Robert Sheppard 2013 All Rights Reserved
For those of us who come from the English-speaking world the best initial path of approach to Eckermann's Conversations with Goethe is to think of it as the German equivilant to James Boswell's epic biography, The Life of Life of Samuel Johnson. Both works are hailed as not only invaluable accounts of their respective great men of letters, but have come to be valued as great masterpieces of literary biography and independent literary works in their own right. In addition, for those of us with a special interest in World Literature, Eckermann's Conversations also records Goethe's definitive delineation of his concept of the emergence of World Literature, using the German term he coined to define his concept "Weltliteratur."
Johann Peter Eckermann, like James Boswell came to his calling as a witness and literary biographer of Goethe as a young unknown man encountering a long-renown literary titan towards the end of his life and career. Boswell met Johnson in a London bookshop owned by a mutual friend in 1763, when Boswell was just twenty-four years old and Johnson was internationally famous at the age of fifty-four. Eckermann met Goethe at Weimar in 1823 when he was just dropping his studies in law at the University of Gottingen at the age of thirty-one in hopes of finding a literary career, and Goethe was at seventy-four the acknowledged universal genius of European letters for half a century. Both men became intimate friends and scrupulous recorders of the conversations of their principals, in Boswell's case for the next 22 years until Johnson's death, and in Eckermann's case for an ensuing 9 years until Goethe's death in 1832 of which he gives a moving account.
Both are sometimes chided for looking on their respective great men with the idolizing eyes of comparative youth, rather than the more seasoned eyes of a true contemporary of similar age and equal experience. While undoubtedly true in some respect, even this supposed fault may be seen as a strength rather than a weakness as their sense of awe fixated and concentrated their energies over many years and imbued each with a weighty mission charged with a sense of responsibility to history and the world, inspiring them to keep meticulous verbatim notes of conversations, records of life events and intimate recordings of their own impressions and observations of their subjects and their respective milieus.
Eckermann's first meeting with Goethe was both dramatic and the most fateful event of his life. He came from a poor family and served as a soldier in the Napoleonic wars. After mustering out of the army with little education he obtained a scholarship that allowed him to complete the Gymnasium and enter the University of Goettingen to study law at his father's urging. Like Goethe, however, he discovered that literature and not law was his personal calling and he abandoned that career when his scholarship moneys came to an end. Having written his first unpublished book on poetry, including Goethe's contributions to German poetics, he send the manuscript to Goethe seeking assistance in its publication. After waiting long months and having no response and his money coming to a final end he sold his possessions and abandoned his flat and set out on foot to seek a personal interview with the sage in Weimar, sending a letter in advance but receiving no appointment. It was for Eckermann a reckless last chance.
Upon arrival he gained entry to Goethe's home and was told to wait in the common room. After two hours, the seventy-three year old European icon entered the room in an elegant blue frock coat and sat opposite him, saying: "I have just come from you!"-----meaning that he had just come from reading Eckermann's manuscript which he had not had time to look at before. Eckermann began to try to explain his work, but Goethe stopped him, saying "There is no need to explain----I have been reading your work all morning and it needs no recommendation---it recommends itself and I accept both it and you."
Forthwith, without having made any request of him Goethe informed Eckermann that he was not only arranging for his book's immediate publication but offering him a position as his private secretary and putting him in charge of his library and managing his literary papers and records. He informed Eckermann that he had already sent to the town to arrange housing and effects for him, effectively taking charge of his life! For the next nine years until Goethe's death he would be in daily contact and conversation with the great Sage of Weimar and record not only their own conversations, but the long literary conversations Goethe undertook with his endless visitors, many them the greatest minds and writers of the age, producing an invaluable near verbatim record of innumberable historic dialogues with the faithfulness and fervor that Plato recorded the words of his revered Socrates.
I deeply recommend reading this seminal work, hailed by even a mind as profound as Nietzsche as the finest work he had read. Here are Goethe's thoughts on Byron, Carlyle, Delacroix, Hegel, Shakespeare, and Voltaire, as well as his views on art, architecture, astronomy, the Bible, Chinese literature, criticism, dreams, ethics, freedom, genius, imagination, immortality, love, mind over body, sculpture, and much, much more. Eckermann's Conversations allows Goethe to engage the reader in a voice as distinct and authentic as it is entrancing, along with the not inconsiderable insights, observations and reflections of the biographer himself.
World Literature Forum also recommends the Conversations from its special perspective, as one of the most seminal and influential works in our canon introducing and delineating the very concept of World Literature, or "Weltliteratur," as Goethe termed it.
Speaking to his young disciple in January 1827, the seventy-seven-year-old Goethe first used his newly minted term "Weltliteratur," which upon publication of the Conversations passed into common international currency:
"I am more and more convinced," Goethe remarked,"that poetry is the universal possession of mankind, revealing itself everywhere and at all times in hundreds and hundreds of men . . . I therefore like to look about me in foreign nations, and advise everyone to do the same. National literature is now a rather unmeaning term; the epoch of world literature is at hand, and everyone must strive to hasten its approach."
Indeed, for Eckermann Goethe becomes the living embodiment of world literature, even of world culture as a whole. In the same passage he records Goethe's remark that "the daemons, to tease and make sport with men, have placed among them single figures so alluring that everyone strives after them, and so great that nobody reaches them"; Goethe names Raphael, Mozart, Shakespeare, and Napoleon as examples."I thought in silence,"Eckermann adds, "that the daemons had intended something of the kind with Goethe--he is a form too alluring not to be striven after, and too great to be reached"
Notwithstanding all his pride in his own achievements and those of his countrymen like Schiller, Goethe had an uneasy sense that German culture was in fact provincial, lacking a great history, and as he lived before German unification after 1870,lacking political unity. He can't afford to grant "national literature" too much meaning, since he didn't even live in a proper nation at all, and he saw all of Europe and the world globalizing rapidly beyond even that anticipated acheivement.
He urged his fellow German writers to be more international and global in their perspectives: "there is being formed a universal world literature, in which an honorable role is reserved for us Germans. All the nations review our work; they praise, censure, accept, and reject, imitate and misrepresent us, open or close their hearts to us. All this we must accept with equanimity, since this attitude, taken as a whole, is of great value to us."
Going even further, Goethe was one of the first great Western minds to take a truly global perspective. Eckerman records one episode:
"Dined with Goethe. 'Within the last few days, since I saw you,' said he, 'I have read many things; especially a Chinese novel, which occupies me still and seems to me very remarkable.'"
"Chinese novel!" said I; "that must look strange enough." "Not so much as you might think," said Goethe; "the Chinese think, act, and feel almost exactly like us; and we soon find that we are perfectly like them, except that all they do is more clear, pure, and decorous, than with us."
"With them all is orderly, citizen-like, without great passion or poetic flight; and there is a strong resemblance to my Hermann and Dorothea, as well as to the English novels of Richardson."
"'But then,' I said, 'is this Chinese novel perhaps one of their most superior ones?'"
It was then in reply to this reservation that Goethe shared with him the concept of Weltliteratur quoted above:
"By no means," said Goethe; "the Chinese have thousands of them, and had when our forefathers were still living in the woods...............I am more and more convinced," he continued, "that poetry is the universal possession of mankind . . . the epoch of world literature is at hand, and everyone must strive to hasten its approach."
Eckermann's final entry in the Conversations centers on discussion of the Bible. He had just bought a copy but was annoyed to find that it lacks the Apocrypha. Goethe commented that the Church erred in closing the canon of scripture, as God's creative work still continues, notably in the activity of great spirits like Mozart, Raphael, and Shakespeare, "who can draw their lesser contemporaries higher," an observation perhaps applicable to other self-enclosed fundamentalist sources such as the Koran, Torah and Sutras. Following these words--the last words of Goethe's that Eckermann records--a one-line paragraph appears: "Goethe fell silent. I, however, preserved his great and good words in my heart."
What then does Goethe, speaking through Eckermann's Conversations have to teach us in the English-speaking world of the 21st Century?
Just as he tried to teach the German-speaking world of the 19th Century, he urges us to outgrow our national provincialisms, join in forging a global perspective, an openness to the traditions and genius of all the world's cultures and literatures while preserving the unique roots and inherent genius of each and our own, and to take intellectual leadership in forging a common World Literature as the common heritage of mankind and a central contribution in our era of Globalization, to the forging and participation in the Universal Civilization and common culture of our planet.
For a fuller discussion of the concept of World Literature you are invited to look into the extended discussion in the new book Spiritus Mundi, by Robert Sheppard, one of the principal themes of which is the emergence of World Literature:
For Discussions on World Literature and Literary Criticism in Spiritus Mundi: http://worldliteratureandliterarycrit…
http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/17…
Robert Sheppard
Editor-in-Chief
World Literature Forum
http://robertalexandersheppard.wordpr…
Author, Spiritus Mundi Novel
http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/17…
Copyright Robert Sheppard 2013 All Rights Reserved
July 15, 2012
Thought provoking. A celebration of curiousity.
January 23, 2025
Jag har bestämt mig för att, i efterhand, skriva ner det jag anser vara extra intressant på de sidor jag har markerat med flikar. Varför? För att visa en bok jag älskade lite extra kärlek; för att återaktivera mitt minne och återuppleva boken på nytt; för att, i någon mån, göra bokens enorma innehåll rättvisa. Hade bara plats att skriva ner den första hälften av flikarna.
Jag började ganska sent in i boken att fästa lappar; den första är på s. 125:
Goethe menar att det finaste en människa kan sätta sig till är den kommunala sammanslagningen av mänskliga krafter. Att uppgå i någonting. Men, fortsätter han, människan måste kultivera sig själv först, samtidigt som hon hela tiden försöker skaffa sig insikt i vad som konstituerar mänskligheten som helhet. Eckermann knyter an detta till Wilhem Meister där det står att en människa endast förtjänar respekt till den utsträckningen hon vet hur man uppskattar andra. Eckermann tänker samtidigt på att de befinner sig i specialiseringens tidsålder: hur ska man då finna det man ska specialisera sig på?
Dialogen mynnar ut i att man ska försöka balansera bredd med specialisering.
s.130:
“People are always talking about “orginality”, but what does that mean? From the moment we are born, the world begins to influence us, and that continues right up to the end. And anyway, what can any of us call our own, except our energy, our strength and our force of will? If i could list everything i owe to great predecessors and contemporaries, there would not be much left.”
s.143:
Goethe menar att det finns ett överskott på litterär talang i Tyskland. Människor vågar inte uppmuntra de talangfulla unga, eftersom det finns så många; det hade endast skapat en produkt utan användningen, särskilt som det finns så mycket annat nyttigt arbete att uträtta. Men, poängterar Goethe, om det fanns någon som tornade upp sig högt över de andra, då skulle situationen vara annorlunda - för världen kan endast serveras de exceptionella.
s. 157:
Eckermann och Goethe läser tidningen. Pjäserna som sätts upp i Berlin, noterar de, är lika dåliga som dem i Weimar. Med hjälp av engelska, franska och spanska pjäser hade det gått att sätta ihop en repertoar, duglig nog att innehålla en bra pjäs varje kväll, enligt Goethe.
“But where is the appetite in our nation to see good plays all the time? Times were very different when Aeschylus, Sophocles, and Euripides were writing; the life of the mind was valued then, and people wanted only the greatest and the best. But in our paltry age, where is the appetite for the best? And where are the organs to appreciate it anyway?”
Citatet fick mig att tänka på det grekiska uttrycket agon.
s.178
“If a man has just enough freedom to live a healthy life and carry on his trade, then he has sufficient - and that much anyone can easily have. Then again, all of us are only free subject to certain conditions that we have to fulfil. The bourgeois is as free as the aristocrat, as long as he stays within the limits that God assigned to him by virtue of the social class he was born into. The aristocrat is as free as the prince; as long as he observes the modicum of ceremonial required ar court, he may feel himself the princes equal. What makes us free is not our refusal to acknowledge anything higher than ourselves, but the very fact that we do respect something higher than ourselves. For by respecting it we lift ourselves up to it, and show by our acknowledgement of it that we too bear something higher within us, and are worthy to be placed on the same level.”
s. 185
I samband med namngivningen av en novell med en oberäknelig handling, där huvudkaraktärerna bland annat är en tiger och en prinsessa.
“You know what? We will just call it “Novelle”; for what else is a novella if not an unheard-of event that has occurred? That is the proper meaning of the term, and a lot of what goes by that name in Germany is not a novella at all, but just a short story, or whatever else you want to call it.”
s.188-189
Goethe pratar om kinesisk litteratur och berömmer den för hur många gamla och moraliskt berömvärda berättelser den innehar. Han fortsätter med att prata om poesi. Den poetiska förmågan är, enligt Goethe, något som manifesterar sig överallt och något som finns inom alla. Den enda skillnaden, i förmågan hos människor, är att vissa är bättre på den än andra och rider, så att säga, vågen lite längre. Den naturliga slutsatsen efter detta är att ingen poet borda ha så höga tankar om sig själv, enligt Goethe. Därefter går Goethe in på nationallitteratur: den är under upplösning och det är allas uppgift att påskynda övergången till världslitteraturen. Dock ska man vara försiktig, då man gått över till världslitteraturen, med att haka upp sig på en enskild nations litteratur; att försöka framhålla det ena eller det andra som det ultimata idealet är dumt och lönlöst. Efter att Goethe sagt detta motsäger han sig själv med att påpeka att om man söker ett ultimat ideal ska man alla gånger gå tillbaka till de gamla grekerna. Det är i antikens litteratur som man, var gång, finner de förnämsta, mänskliga kvaliteterna representerade. Allt annat (förutom de gamla grekerna) är endast en produkt av sin tid, och från dem ska man bara låna det bra man kan finna, enligt Goethe.
s.190
Poeterna måste både gå längre, och samtidigt konstruera något bättre, än historikerna. Shakespear gick så långt att till och med hans romare blev engelsmän, men det är ok! Annars hade han inte blivit förstådd av sin samtid. I alla Sofokles karaktärer finns en skärva av hans upphöjda karaktär och sinne. Grekernas styrka var att de var mer intresserade av poetens syn på det förgågna än verklig, historisk exakhet, enligt Goethe.
s.202
Goethe pratar om islam. Han finner det intressant att unga muslimer blir lärda att ingenting kan ske dem, som inte redan bestämdes för länge sedan av en allseende gudomlighet. Detta synsätt utrustar de unga väl inför livet. Goethe fortsätter med att påpeka att han inte kan säga om själva doktrinen är sann eller falsk, hjälpsam eller skadlig, men i allas inre existerar en liknande tro, även om man inte blivit lärd det. Ett exempel, från Goethe, är soldaten. Hur hade han vågat om han inte gick in i strid med tron att endast den kulan som bär hans namn kan såra honom?
s. 204
Kant är, enligt Goethe, samtidens största filosof. Han har influerat dig med (Eckermann), även fast du inte läst honom, säger Goethe. Och nu är du inte i behov av att läsa honom, för det han hade att ge är redan ditt. Detta säger Goethe som bevis på Kants inflytande över hela den tyskspråkiga kulturen. Även om man inte läst honom har man ändå passivt sugit upp hans filosofi genom dem han har influerat.
s. 212
Om apor:
“We talked about how ugly these beasts are, and agreed that the more they resemble humans, the more unpleasant they are”
Uncanny valley?
s.216
“There is a lot of talk about aristocracy and democracy, but the matter is very simple, really. In our youth, when we own nothing, or attach no value to steady ownership, we are democrats. But if, in the course of a long life, we come into property, we not only want it to be secure, we also want our children and grandchildren to carry on enjoying it in peace. Which is why we are all, whitout exception, aristocrats in our old age, whatever we may have thought in our youth. Leo writes very perceptively on this point.”
s.221
Goethe klagar på samtida poeter som skriver cyniskt, som om hela världen endast skulle vara en stor sjukstuga. Enligt honom tävlar dessa samtida med varandra om vem som kan göra de andra mest nedstämda. Goethe menar att det är att missbruka poesin, som har getts människan för att kompensera för livets vedermödor, och som är ett verktyg för att göra oss tillfreds med världen.
s.232
Goethe börjar med att lovtala Schiller. Inget störde honom. Han var fri i tanken och kunde uttrycka sig ohämmat, oavsett situation. Vi andra, fortsätter Goethe, kan inte uttrycka de stora sakerna som ligger latent i vår natur, eftersom vi hela tiden störs av människorna och föremålen i vår omgivning. En gyllen tesked stör oss för att den inte är gjord av silver. Tusen små överväganden kommer i vår väg. “We are the slaves of the objects around us, and appear insignificant or important, depending on whether they stunt us or give us space to expand freely”.
s.235
Goethe jämför Walter Scott med en sångare som kan sjunga alla toner väl. De flesta författare klarar endast att bemästra några. Det är en produkt av Scotts stora kunskap om den riktiga världen, hans naturliga talang och hans många intressen.
Goethe påpekar att poängen med att läsa en bok inte är att fästa sig vid en viss karaktär, utan att uppskatta bokens totalitet. Att analysera och älska helheten.
s.237
Om Adam och Eva. Naturen är alltid överflödig, enligt Goethe. Därför är det otroligt att tänka sig att Adam och Eva var de enda människorna Gud satte på jorden. Visst stämmer det kanske att det är judarnas förfäder, men det behöver inte betyda att alla etniciteter härstammar från dem. Människorna som skrev ned bibeln tänkte i första hand på sitt släktled. Goethe visar prov på en sorts förståelse för arv.
Han avslutar med: “...we differ in all kinds of ways from the true descendents of Adam, and that they are way ahead of us, especially where money is concerned.” Stereotypisering.
s.245
För vem är de stora konstnärerna? Enligt Eckermann är dem inte till gagn för populaset, utan en utvald skara människor, sysselsatta med liknande företag. En kontemplativ sort. Mer specifikt: de som vill leva till fullo, de som söker hjärtats njutningar och lidanden i konsten. De unga som önskar lära sig uttrycka sig. Kritiker, konstnärer och vetenskapsmän är Goethes verk för, eftersom de demonstrerar metoden man måste använda sig av för att kunna närma sig naturen, så att den ger upp sina hemligheter.
I dessa grubblerier var Eckermann försatt i under en gemensam middag med Goethe och andra. Eckermann var så distraherad att han tabbar sig vid tilltal. Bordsgästerna retar Eckermann. Goethe kommer till undsättning: “Leave poor Eckermann alone, he’s always distracted, except when he’s at the theatre.”
Goethe ger honom druvor efteråt. Eckermann plockar dem från hans hand och reflekterar över hur nära de båda är varandra. Nästan med en servil munterhet.
s.248
“One has to be something in order to do something.”
Dante framstår som stor för oss, men han hade århundranden av civilisation bakom sig. Huset Rothschild är rikt, men det har tagit mer än en livstid att hopsamla en sådan förmögenhet. Samtida konstnärer i Tyskland vet inget om detta. De vill imitera naturen, men de står under naturen. En konstnär måste först kultivera sig själv för att nå storhet, så att han sedan, precis som de gamla grekerna, kan upphöja verklighetens nedrigare delar till sitt eget sinnes nivå och förverkliga det som i naturfenomenen kvarblivit som en underliggande, outförd avsikt, motarbetad av inre svaghet eller yttre hinder.
s.255
Är endast det moraliska kultiverande? Enligt Goethe, nej. Man måste se upp så att man inte endast ser till det som är rent och moraliskt för kulturell inspiration. “Byron’s boldness audacity and splendour: surely we can learn from these?”, “Whatever is great, once we are aware of it, serves to cultivare the mind.”
s.256
Religion och filosofi borde inte beblandas. De båda står stadigt på egna ben och behöver inte styrkas av den andre. Enligt Goethe borde människan tro på evigt liv, men det är inte rätt av filosofen att försöka bevisa det. För Goethe kommer tron på evigt liv från idén om aktivitet; för om man fortsätter arbeta outröttligt till livets slut, då är naturen skyldig själen en ny form av liv.
s.261
Matematikern Lagranges karaktär var “good” därför var han “great”, enligt Goethe. “When a good man is blessed with talent, he is always a moral force for good in the world, whether as an artist, natural scientist, poet or whatever.”
s.262
“Whatever is great or wise, exists in the minority.” Det har funnits ministrat som har utfört sina intriger med både folket och kungen emot sig, ensam. “... reason will always be the sole preserve of a few outstandig individuals.”
s.263
Man behöver pengar för att tillskansa sig erfarenhet. “Every bon mot I utter costs me a purseful of money…”
Talang är inte tillräckligt för att lyckas, enligt Goethe. Man måste leva bland de stora och de duktiga och ha möjlighet att se korten hos tidens ledande spelare, så att man sedan själv kan ingå i ronden; vinna eller försvinna.
Utan naturvetenskapen hade jag inte lärt känna människor som de faktiskt är. Ingen annan disciplin lär dig så mycket om sinnenas och intellektets opålitlighet, eller om individers karaktärsbrister. Andra fält är inte fixerade. Men naturen vill inte bli hunsad; hon är alltid sann, uppriktig, rigorös. Misstagen är alltid människans. Hon ger sig endast till känna för någon som är kompetent, äkta och ren.
s.266
Det finns två uppgifter kvar för den tyska filosfin, enligt Goethe. Kant skrev the Critique of Pure Reason. Nu behöver vi en eminent man som skriver kritiken av sinnena och av den mänskliga förståelsen, så att cirkeln sluts. Efter det kan vi inte önska mer av den tyska filosofin.
s.275
Denna är riktigt klockren, en klassiker!
Goethe finner ett papper där han liknar arkitektur vid “frozen music”. “And there’s something in that, you know; the state of mind produced by architecture is similar to the effect of music.”
s.276
Goethe menar att ens vänner kan vara en plåga, eftersom de ofta inte håller med ens beslut: han tar upp Humboldt, som motsätter sig att Dorothea försvarar sig själv, som exempel.
Genom livet kommer du upptäcka, mer och mer att få människor är kapabla att uppskatta det som av nöden måste vara, i stället endast för det som passar dem, säger han.
s.277
Goethe presenterar ett nytt sätt att indela det romantiska och det klassicistiska: det förra är sjukt och det senare sunt. Moderna tillblivelser är, enligt Goethe, inte romantiska för att de är nya, utan för att de är nedsmittade, sjuka och svaga. Och det gamla är inte klassiskt för att det är gammalt utan för att det är starkt, fräscht, sunt och glädjande.
s.287
Rytmen i ett poetiskt verk kan inte analyseras. “The rythm, said Goethe, flows unconsciously from the poetic state of mind. If we stopped to think about it when writing a poem, we would go mad and produce noting of any value.”
De antika tyskarna introducerade oss till idén om personlig frihet, vilket var ett definerande drag hos det folket. Reformatinen härstammar från denna källa. Av samma anledning den tyska litterauren, vilket ses i det eviga begäret efter orginalitet: varje författare tror att han behöver slå till ensam, akademikerna också, då de sliter ut sig själva i sitt eget lilla hörn. Fransmännen och Engelsmännen är mer konforma, både i hur de klär sig och uppför sig. De är rädda för att sticka ut, det är inte tyskarna. De följer sitt eget huvud, där de odlat en egen idé om personlig frihet. Källan, enligt Goethe, till mycket som är utmärkt men också mycket som är absurt.
Jag började ganska sent in i boken att fästa lappar; den första är på s. 125:
Goethe menar att det finaste en människa kan sätta sig till är den kommunala sammanslagningen av mänskliga krafter. Att uppgå i någonting. Men, fortsätter han, människan måste kultivera sig själv först, samtidigt som hon hela tiden försöker skaffa sig insikt i vad som konstituerar mänskligheten som helhet. Eckermann knyter an detta till Wilhem Meister där det står att en människa endast förtjänar respekt till den utsträckningen hon vet hur man uppskattar andra. Eckermann tänker samtidigt på att de befinner sig i specialiseringens tidsålder: hur ska man då finna det man ska specialisera sig på?
Dialogen mynnar ut i att man ska försöka balansera bredd med specialisering.
s.130:
“People are always talking about “orginality”, but what does that mean? From the moment we are born, the world begins to influence us, and that continues right up to the end. And anyway, what can any of us call our own, except our energy, our strength and our force of will? If i could list everything i owe to great predecessors and contemporaries, there would not be much left.”
s.143:
Goethe menar att det finns ett överskott på litterär talang i Tyskland. Människor vågar inte uppmuntra de talangfulla unga, eftersom det finns så många; det hade endast skapat en produkt utan användningen, särskilt som det finns så mycket annat nyttigt arbete att uträtta. Men, poängterar Goethe, om det fanns någon som tornade upp sig högt över de andra, då skulle situationen vara annorlunda - för världen kan endast serveras de exceptionella.
s. 157:
Eckermann och Goethe läser tidningen. Pjäserna som sätts upp i Berlin, noterar de, är lika dåliga som dem i Weimar. Med hjälp av engelska, franska och spanska pjäser hade det gått att sätta ihop en repertoar, duglig nog att innehålla en bra pjäs varje kväll, enligt Goethe.
“But where is the appetite in our nation to see good plays all the time? Times were very different when Aeschylus, Sophocles, and Euripides were writing; the life of the mind was valued then, and people wanted only the greatest and the best. But in our paltry age, where is the appetite for the best? And where are the organs to appreciate it anyway?”
Citatet fick mig att tänka på det grekiska uttrycket agon.
s.178
“If a man has just enough freedom to live a healthy life and carry on his trade, then he has sufficient - and that much anyone can easily have. Then again, all of us are only free subject to certain conditions that we have to fulfil. The bourgeois is as free as the aristocrat, as long as he stays within the limits that God assigned to him by virtue of the social class he was born into. The aristocrat is as free as the prince; as long as he observes the modicum of ceremonial required ar court, he may feel himself the princes equal. What makes us free is not our refusal to acknowledge anything higher than ourselves, but the very fact that we do respect something higher than ourselves. For by respecting it we lift ourselves up to it, and show by our acknowledgement of it that we too bear something higher within us, and are worthy to be placed on the same level.”
s. 185
I samband med namngivningen av en novell med en oberäknelig handling, där huvudkaraktärerna bland annat är en tiger och en prinsessa.
“You know what? We will just call it “Novelle”; for what else is a novella if not an unheard-of event that has occurred? That is the proper meaning of the term, and a lot of what goes by that name in Germany is not a novella at all, but just a short story, or whatever else you want to call it.”
s.188-189
Goethe pratar om kinesisk litteratur och berömmer den för hur många gamla och moraliskt berömvärda berättelser den innehar. Han fortsätter med att prata om poesi. Den poetiska förmågan är, enligt Goethe, något som manifesterar sig överallt och något som finns inom alla. Den enda skillnaden, i förmågan hos människor, är att vissa är bättre på den än andra och rider, så att säga, vågen lite längre. Den naturliga slutsatsen efter detta är att ingen poet borda ha så höga tankar om sig själv, enligt Goethe. Därefter går Goethe in på nationallitteratur: den är under upplösning och det är allas uppgift att påskynda övergången till världslitteraturen. Dock ska man vara försiktig, då man gått över till världslitteraturen, med att haka upp sig på en enskild nations litteratur; att försöka framhålla det ena eller det andra som det ultimata idealet är dumt och lönlöst. Efter att Goethe sagt detta motsäger han sig själv med att påpeka att om man söker ett ultimat ideal ska man alla gånger gå tillbaka till de gamla grekerna. Det är i antikens litteratur som man, var gång, finner de förnämsta, mänskliga kvaliteterna representerade. Allt annat (förutom de gamla grekerna) är endast en produkt av sin tid, och från dem ska man bara låna det bra man kan finna, enligt Goethe.
s.190
Poeterna måste både gå längre, och samtidigt konstruera något bättre, än historikerna. Shakespear gick så långt att till och med hans romare blev engelsmän, men det är ok! Annars hade han inte blivit förstådd av sin samtid. I alla Sofokles karaktärer finns en skärva av hans upphöjda karaktär och sinne. Grekernas styrka var att de var mer intresserade av poetens syn på det förgågna än verklig, historisk exakhet, enligt Goethe.
s.202
Goethe pratar om islam. Han finner det intressant att unga muslimer blir lärda att ingenting kan ske dem, som inte redan bestämdes för länge sedan av en allseende gudomlighet. Detta synsätt utrustar de unga väl inför livet. Goethe fortsätter med att påpeka att han inte kan säga om själva doktrinen är sann eller falsk, hjälpsam eller skadlig, men i allas inre existerar en liknande tro, även om man inte blivit lärd det. Ett exempel, från Goethe, är soldaten. Hur hade han vågat om han inte gick in i strid med tron att endast den kulan som bär hans namn kan såra honom?
s. 204
Kant är, enligt Goethe, samtidens största filosof. Han har influerat dig med (Eckermann), även fast du inte läst honom, säger Goethe. Och nu är du inte i behov av att läsa honom, för det han hade att ge är redan ditt. Detta säger Goethe som bevis på Kants inflytande över hela den tyskspråkiga kulturen. Även om man inte läst honom har man ändå passivt sugit upp hans filosofi genom dem han har influerat.
s. 212
Om apor:
“We talked about how ugly these beasts are, and agreed that the more they resemble humans, the more unpleasant they are”
Uncanny valley?
s.216
“There is a lot of talk about aristocracy and democracy, but the matter is very simple, really. In our youth, when we own nothing, or attach no value to steady ownership, we are democrats. But if, in the course of a long life, we come into property, we not only want it to be secure, we also want our children and grandchildren to carry on enjoying it in peace. Which is why we are all, whitout exception, aristocrats in our old age, whatever we may have thought in our youth. Leo writes very perceptively on this point.”
s.221
Goethe klagar på samtida poeter som skriver cyniskt, som om hela världen endast skulle vara en stor sjukstuga. Enligt honom tävlar dessa samtida med varandra om vem som kan göra de andra mest nedstämda. Goethe menar att det är att missbruka poesin, som har getts människan för att kompensera för livets vedermödor, och som är ett verktyg för att göra oss tillfreds med världen.
s.232
Goethe börjar med att lovtala Schiller. Inget störde honom. Han var fri i tanken och kunde uttrycka sig ohämmat, oavsett situation. Vi andra, fortsätter Goethe, kan inte uttrycka de stora sakerna som ligger latent i vår natur, eftersom vi hela tiden störs av människorna och föremålen i vår omgivning. En gyllen tesked stör oss för att den inte är gjord av silver. Tusen små överväganden kommer i vår väg. “We are the slaves of the objects around us, and appear insignificant or important, depending on whether they stunt us or give us space to expand freely”.
s.235
Goethe jämför Walter Scott med en sångare som kan sjunga alla toner väl. De flesta författare klarar endast att bemästra några. Det är en produkt av Scotts stora kunskap om den riktiga världen, hans naturliga talang och hans många intressen.
Goethe påpekar att poängen med att läsa en bok inte är att fästa sig vid en viss karaktär, utan att uppskatta bokens totalitet. Att analysera och älska helheten.
s.237
Om Adam och Eva. Naturen är alltid överflödig, enligt Goethe. Därför är det otroligt att tänka sig att Adam och Eva var de enda människorna Gud satte på jorden. Visst stämmer det kanske att det är judarnas förfäder, men det behöver inte betyda att alla etniciteter härstammar från dem. Människorna som skrev ned bibeln tänkte i första hand på sitt släktled. Goethe visar prov på en sorts förståelse för arv.
Han avslutar med: “...we differ in all kinds of ways from the true descendents of Adam, and that they are way ahead of us, especially where money is concerned.” Stereotypisering.
s.245
För vem är de stora konstnärerna? Enligt Eckermann är dem inte till gagn för populaset, utan en utvald skara människor, sysselsatta med liknande företag. En kontemplativ sort. Mer specifikt: de som vill leva till fullo, de som söker hjärtats njutningar och lidanden i konsten. De unga som önskar lära sig uttrycka sig. Kritiker, konstnärer och vetenskapsmän är Goethes verk för, eftersom de demonstrerar metoden man måste använda sig av för att kunna närma sig naturen, så att den ger upp sina hemligheter.
I dessa grubblerier var Eckermann försatt i under en gemensam middag med Goethe och andra. Eckermann var så distraherad att han tabbar sig vid tilltal. Bordsgästerna retar Eckermann. Goethe kommer till undsättning: “Leave poor Eckermann alone, he’s always distracted, except when he’s at the theatre.”
Goethe ger honom druvor efteråt. Eckermann plockar dem från hans hand och reflekterar över hur nära de båda är varandra. Nästan med en servil munterhet.
s.248
“One has to be something in order to do something.”
Dante framstår som stor för oss, men han hade århundranden av civilisation bakom sig. Huset Rothschild är rikt, men det har tagit mer än en livstid att hopsamla en sådan förmögenhet. Samtida konstnärer i Tyskland vet inget om detta. De vill imitera naturen, men de står under naturen. En konstnär måste först kultivera sig själv för att nå storhet, så att han sedan, precis som de gamla grekerna, kan upphöja verklighetens nedrigare delar till sitt eget sinnes nivå och förverkliga det som i naturfenomenen kvarblivit som en underliggande, outförd avsikt, motarbetad av inre svaghet eller yttre hinder.
s.255
Är endast det moraliska kultiverande? Enligt Goethe, nej. Man måste se upp så att man inte endast ser till det som är rent och moraliskt för kulturell inspiration. “Byron’s boldness audacity and splendour: surely we can learn from these?”, “Whatever is great, once we are aware of it, serves to cultivare the mind.”
s.256
Religion och filosofi borde inte beblandas. De båda står stadigt på egna ben och behöver inte styrkas av den andre. Enligt Goethe borde människan tro på evigt liv, men det är inte rätt av filosofen att försöka bevisa det. För Goethe kommer tron på evigt liv från idén om aktivitet; för om man fortsätter arbeta outröttligt till livets slut, då är naturen skyldig själen en ny form av liv.
s.261
Matematikern Lagranges karaktär var “good” därför var han “great”, enligt Goethe. “When a good man is blessed with talent, he is always a moral force for good in the world, whether as an artist, natural scientist, poet or whatever.”
s.262
“Whatever is great or wise, exists in the minority.” Det har funnits ministrat som har utfört sina intriger med både folket och kungen emot sig, ensam. “... reason will always be the sole preserve of a few outstandig individuals.”
s.263
Man behöver pengar för att tillskansa sig erfarenhet. “Every bon mot I utter costs me a purseful of money…”
Talang är inte tillräckligt för att lyckas, enligt Goethe. Man måste leva bland de stora och de duktiga och ha möjlighet att se korten hos tidens ledande spelare, så att man sedan själv kan ingå i ronden; vinna eller försvinna.
Utan naturvetenskapen hade jag inte lärt känna människor som de faktiskt är. Ingen annan disciplin lär dig så mycket om sinnenas och intellektets opålitlighet, eller om individers karaktärsbrister. Andra fält är inte fixerade. Men naturen vill inte bli hunsad; hon är alltid sann, uppriktig, rigorös. Misstagen är alltid människans. Hon ger sig endast till känna för någon som är kompetent, äkta och ren.
s.266
Det finns två uppgifter kvar för den tyska filosfin, enligt Goethe. Kant skrev the Critique of Pure Reason. Nu behöver vi en eminent man som skriver kritiken av sinnena och av den mänskliga förståelsen, så att cirkeln sluts. Efter det kan vi inte önska mer av den tyska filosofin.
s.275
Denna är riktigt klockren, en klassiker!
Goethe finner ett papper där han liknar arkitektur vid “frozen music”. “And there’s something in that, you know; the state of mind produced by architecture is similar to the effect of music.”
s.276
Goethe menar att ens vänner kan vara en plåga, eftersom de ofta inte håller med ens beslut: han tar upp Humboldt, som motsätter sig att Dorothea försvarar sig själv, som exempel.
Genom livet kommer du upptäcka, mer och mer att få människor är kapabla att uppskatta det som av nöden måste vara, i stället endast för det som passar dem, säger han.
s.277
Goethe presenterar ett nytt sätt att indela det romantiska och det klassicistiska: det förra är sjukt och det senare sunt. Moderna tillblivelser är, enligt Goethe, inte romantiska för att de är nya, utan för att de är nedsmittade, sjuka och svaga. Och det gamla är inte klassiskt för att det är gammalt utan för att det är starkt, fräscht, sunt och glädjande.
s.287
Rytmen i ett poetiskt verk kan inte analyseras. “The rythm, said Goethe, flows unconsciously from the poetic state of mind. If we stopped to think about it when writing a poem, we would go mad and produce noting of any value.”
De antika tyskarna introducerade oss till idén om personlig frihet, vilket var ett definerande drag hos det folket. Reformatinen härstammar från denna källa. Av samma anledning den tyska litterauren, vilket ses i det eviga begäret efter orginalitet: varje författare tror att han behöver slå till ensam, akademikerna också, då de sliter ut sig själva i sitt eget lilla hörn. Fransmännen och Engelsmännen är mer konforma, både i hur de klär sig och uppför sig. De är rädda för att sticka ut, det är inte tyskarna. De följer sitt eget huvud, där de odlat en egen idé om personlig frihet. Källan, enligt Goethe, till mycket som är utmärkt men också mycket som är absurt.
December 1, 2020
This book was about a series of journal entries by Johann Peter Eckermann about his interactions with Johann Wolfgang von Goethe. Goethe wrote a book called The sufferings of young werther which some people say was part autobiographical but I remember reading that book as a young young maybe 25-year old and remember having to literally sit back on my chair and put the book down after I read one line in that book. The line was as follows: “think of you, sleepy, I never think of you, you are always before my soul. Maybe not as impactful now but then I remember being absolutely wowed by his writing and his philosophical insight. That book about Young werther went on to have a huge effect on Society in Germany and across Europe with copycat suicides taking place in different countries. Anyway this book is not about that book but it talks about Goethe's genius in some very simple and what you may think are irrelevant events and discussions between him and the author eckermann. In parts this book was deeply philosophical but it went on and on and on a lot about German Society and some very niche German writers that both eckermann and Johann Wolfgang von Goethe were in touch with at the time that was written in the 1800s. For that reason I only gave it 4 stars. Anyway enough of me rambling, here are some of my best bits:
He does not learn merely to accumulate knowledge, so his past is not there for the sake of reminiscence or regret but in engagement with the present moment.
He spoke in the slow and composed manner such as you would expect from an aged monarch who is elevated above both praise and blame.
The light is there and the colours surround us: but if we had no light and no colours in our own eyes we should not perceive the outward phenomena.
At 75 one must of course think something and sometimes of death. But this thought never gives me fear for I am convinced that our spirit is Indestructible and that its activity continues from eternity to Eternity. It is like the sun which seems to set only to human eyes but which in reality never sets but shines on unceasingly.
The political Talent of ladies often seems to him as a sexual Instinct of the intellect. Here him said Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, laughing and looking at me: sexual Instinct indeed! How the physician explains it! I know not whether I express myself alright but it is something of the sort. Usually these beings have not been fortunate in love and they now seek compensation in intellectual Pursuits. Had they been married in time and born children they would never have thought of poetical Productions. I will not enquire how far you are right in this case but as to the Talents of ladies in other departments I've always found that they ceased on marriage. I've known girls who drew finely but so soon as they become wives and mothers it was all over: they were busy with their children and never touched a pencil again.
What is there is mine and where do I get it from a book or from life is of no consequence: the only point is whether I have made a right use of it.
His high rank as an English Pier was very injurious to Byron: for every Talents is oppressed by the outer world: how much more then when there is such high birth and so great a fortune? The middle rank is much more favorable to Talent so we find all great artists and poets in the middle classes typically.
But when all is said the greatest artis to limit and isolate oneself.
And for the following reasons in nature we never see anything isolated: everything is in connection with something else which is before it beside it under it, and over it. The single object may strike us as particularly picturesque: it is not however the object alone which produces this affects: it is the connection in which we see it, and that which is beside, behind 2, and above it all of which contribute to that overall effect. The diamond sparkles more brightly, for example, in the sun …
After all what to do we know and how far can we go with all our wit? man is born not to solve the problems of the Universe but find out where the problem lies and then to the strain himself within the limits of the comprehensible. His faculties are not sufficient to measure the actions of the Universe : and an attempt to explain the outer Worlds by reason is with his narrow view: vain. The reason of Man and the reason of the deity are two very different reasons and deed.
Freedom consists not in refusing to recognize anything above us but in respecting something which is above us: for by respecting it we raise ourselves to it and by are very acknowledgement prove that we bear within ourselves what is higher and are worthy to be on a level with it.
Contemporaries and competitors ought NOT to be the object of study: need for an intercourse with great predecessors is the shore sign of a higher Talent. Study moliere study Shakespeare, but above all things study the Old greats and always the Greeks.
A worthless man will always remain worthless: and a little mind will not by daily intercourse with the great minds of antiquity become 1-inch greater. But a noble man in his soul God has placed the capability for future greatness of character and elevation of mind will through knowledge and of The Familiar intercourse with the elevated nature's of ancient Greeks and Romans, develop to the utmost and everyday make a visible approach to similar greatness
You ought to like me said Johann Wolfgang von Goethe study Church History for 50 years to understand how it all hangs together. On the other hand it is highly remarkable to see with what doctrines the mohammedans began the work of education. As a religious Foundation they confirm the youth in the conviction that nothing can happen to man except what was long since decreed by an all ruling divinity. With this they are prepared and satisfied for a whole life and they scarce need anything further. They say: in a war, the ball on which my name is not written cannot hit me. And without such belief how could he maintain such courage and cheerfulness in the most imminent perils? The Christian doctrine: no Sparrow Falls to the ground without the consent of our father comes from the same source.
The Germans are certainly strange people. By the Deep thoughts and ideas which they seek and everything and fixed upon everything, they make life much more burdensome than is necessary. Only have the courage to give yourself up to your impressions: allow yourself to be delighted, moved, elevated colon instructed and spirited for something great: but do not imagine all is vanity, if it is not abstract thoughts and idea.
Does this productiveness of genius lie merely in the mind of an important man or does it also liein the body? The body said Johann Wolfgang von Goethe has at least a mighty influence upon it. There was indeed a time when in Germany the genius was always thought of as short, week or hunchbacked: but commend me to a genius who has a well proportioned body?
Women said Johann Wolfgang von Goethe are silver dishes into which we put golden apples.
The higher a man is the more he is under the influence of demons and he must take heed lest his guiding will cancel him to a wrong path.
The French and the English on the other hand keep Far more together and guide themselves one by another. They harmonise dress and manners they fear to differ from one another less they should be remarkable or even ridiculous. But with the Germans each one does things his own way and strives to satisfy himself: he does not ask about others.
In his work there is a list of the books Napoleon took to Egypt and among them is Johann Wolfgang von Goethe sufferings of young werther. But what is worth noticing in this list as the way the books are classed under different Rubic's. Under the the header politic for instance we find the Old Testament, the New Testament, the Quran: by which we see from what point of view Napoleon regard it's religious matters.
He does not learn merely to accumulate knowledge, so his past is not there for the sake of reminiscence or regret but in engagement with the present moment.
He spoke in the slow and composed manner such as you would expect from an aged monarch who is elevated above both praise and blame.
The light is there and the colours surround us: but if we had no light and no colours in our own eyes we should not perceive the outward phenomena.
At 75 one must of course think something and sometimes of death. But this thought never gives me fear for I am convinced that our spirit is Indestructible and that its activity continues from eternity to Eternity. It is like the sun which seems to set only to human eyes but which in reality never sets but shines on unceasingly.
The political Talent of ladies often seems to him as a sexual Instinct of the intellect. Here him said Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, laughing and looking at me: sexual Instinct indeed! How the physician explains it! I know not whether I express myself alright but it is something of the sort. Usually these beings have not been fortunate in love and they now seek compensation in intellectual Pursuits. Had they been married in time and born children they would never have thought of poetical Productions. I will not enquire how far you are right in this case but as to the Talents of ladies in other departments I've always found that they ceased on marriage. I've known girls who drew finely but so soon as they become wives and mothers it was all over: they were busy with their children and never touched a pencil again.
What is there is mine and where do I get it from a book or from life is of no consequence: the only point is whether I have made a right use of it.
His high rank as an English Pier was very injurious to Byron: for every Talents is oppressed by the outer world: how much more then when there is such high birth and so great a fortune? The middle rank is much more favorable to Talent so we find all great artists and poets in the middle classes typically.
But when all is said the greatest artis to limit and isolate oneself.
And for the following reasons in nature we never see anything isolated: everything is in connection with something else which is before it beside it under it, and over it. The single object may strike us as particularly picturesque: it is not however the object alone which produces this affects: it is the connection in which we see it, and that which is beside, behind 2, and above it all of which contribute to that overall effect. The diamond sparkles more brightly, for example, in the sun …
After all what to do we know and how far can we go with all our wit? man is born not to solve the problems of the Universe but find out where the problem lies and then to the strain himself within the limits of the comprehensible. His faculties are not sufficient to measure the actions of the Universe : and an attempt to explain the outer Worlds by reason is with his narrow view: vain. The reason of Man and the reason of the deity are two very different reasons and deed.
Freedom consists not in refusing to recognize anything above us but in respecting something which is above us: for by respecting it we raise ourselves to it and by are very acknowledgement prove that we bear within ourselves what is higher and are worthy to be on a level with it.
Contemporaries and competitors ought NOT to be the object of study: need for an intercourse with great predecessors is the shore sign of a higher Talent. Study moliere study Shakespeare, but above all things study the Old greats and always the Greeks.
A worthless man will always remain worthless: and a little mind will not by daily intercourse with the great minds of antiquity become 1-inch greater. But a noble man in his soul God has placed the capability for future greatness of character and elevation of mind will through knowledge and of The Familiar intercourse with the elevated nature's of ancient Greeks and Romans, develop to the utmost and everyday make a visible approach to similar greatness
You ought to like me said Johann Wolfgang von Goethe study Church History for 50 years to understand how it all hangs together. On the other hand it is highly remarkable to see with what doctrines the mohammedans began the work of education. As a religious Foundation they confirm the youth in the conviction that nothing can happen to man except what was long since decreed by an all ruling divinity. With this they are prepared and satisfied for a whole life and they scarce need anything further. They say: in a war, the ball on which my name is not written cannot hit me. And without such belief how could he maintain such courage and cheerfulness in the most imminent perils? The Christian doctrine: no Sparrow Falls to the ground without the consent of our father comes from the same source.
The Germans are certainly strange people. By the Deep thoughts and ideas which they seek and everything and fixed upon everything, they make life much more burdensome than is necessary. Only have the courage to give yourself up to your impressions: allow yourself to be delighted, moved, elevated colon instructed and spirited for something great: but do not imagine all is vanity, if it is not abstract thoughts and idea.
Does this productiveness of genius lie merely in the mind of an important man or does it also liein the body? The body said Johann Wolfgang von Goethe has at least a mighty influence upon it. There was indeed a time when in Germany the genius was always thought of as short, week or hunchbacked: but commend me to a genius who has a well proportioned body?
Women said Johann Wolfgang von Goethe are silver dishes into which we put golden apples.
The higher a man is the more he is under the influence of demons and he must take heed lest his guiding will cancel him to a wrong path.
The French and the English on the other hand keep Far more together and guide themselves one by another. They harmonise dress and manners they fear to differ from one another less they should be remarkable or even ridiculous. But with the Germans each one does things his own way and strives to satisfy himself: he does not ask about others.
In his work there is a list of the books Napoleon took to Egypt and among them is Johann Wolfgang von Goethe sufferings of young werther. But what is worth noticing in this list as the way the books are classed under different Rubic's. Under the the header politic for instance we find the Old Testament, the New Testament, the Quran: by which we see from what point of view Napoleon regard it's religious matters.
August 27, 2009
Advice about spirit, personality, strength, the nature of genius, "the more one knows, the worse one observes", how and when to "unfurl the sails", and alot more. It's like reality TV from 1823. You're right there, sitting with Goethe, watching his face, seeing his good days and bad days. You are witness to his incredible strength, curiosity, and bloody unfathomable understanding of the world. For a writer, this book contains things that no MFA program would hope or dare to provide. How to be more like Napolean, for example.
July 24, 2013
Interesting book.
June 14, 2014
THE BEST BOOK IN THE WORLD
May 16, 2016
Deep thoughts about a wide range of issues, such as politic, art, wealth etc.. Totally recommended
November 9, 2020
Wonderful book, a very slow read because there is so much to think about here.
August 8, 2021
Nietzsche said of this book, confusing many, that it was the finest in the whole German language, and I speculate that this is a uniquely German type of opinion: here is Goethe, an idol for the German literati with no equivalent in any other nation except maybe Pushkin, in a simultaneous anarchism and serenity. Like his works, his opinions are manifold and often radical, but his personage is as confident and concise as a Confucius, and the way he politely but eloquently asserts his beliefs is quite natural; and both of these seemingly contradictory traits recur over and over in the German literature (the asiatic sage throughout Hesse and Hoelderlin; the wily rogues in Mann and Grass). In fact, taken in conjunct with Eckermann's clear and novel-like style, I think this book can be deceptively simple, and is best taken as a summatory addenda to Goethe's works, like a clearer and better-structured Wilhelm Meister - and also perhaps to be compared to Mann's historical novel Lotte In Weimar, where the substantive qualms with Goethe held by his inner circle (including Eckermann, who was treated as a more servile&inferior figure than this volume of conversations between equals would suggest) are played out in full, a novel in fact which is perhaps the direct antidote to the variant of Goethe worship that Nietzsche found so attractive, as well as a veiled critique of Nietzsche in itself.
Goethe espouses his anti-systemic philosophical ideals and approach to poetry, the significance of which grows greater&greater the more you know about the formidability of the poets&philosophers he counteracts; his accusations against the over-wraught systemics of Kant and Hegel are no mere layman grievances. His evaluation of Byron is interesting and important, and like his Russian peer Pushkin, exposes perhaps the now-easily-neglected massivity of his irreverent rebel persona at his time&position. The rest of his literary evaluations, which flow endlessly, are no lesser, and he seems to know as much about novels and poetry as the finest of the modernists would espouse a hundred years later. Perhaps most conspicuous of all, though, is his perpetual driving at his theory of colors, his fixation on which never faltered even into his very last days (his last weeks alive were spent revising that tract), and via the incremental induction of Eckermann into Goethe's mind-set on the topic the reader can learn to appreciate it, too - no matter how permanently dubious Goethe's need to externalize colors is, the resulting methodology of observation produces interesting effects, and there is no shortage of hands-on field observation, guided by Goethe, in the book. Yet even the quixotic fallacies contribute to the book, for they humanize the novel as we observe Goethe, eminently astute and successful at everything else, carry his obsession&narcissism a smidgeon too far and become identifiably&conceivably human.
Goethe espouses his anti-systemic philosophical ideals and approach to poetry, the significance of which grows greater&greater the more you know about the formidability of the poets&philosophers he counteracts; his accusations against the over-wraught systemics of Kant and Hegel are no mere layman grievances. His evaluation of Byron is interesting and important, and like his Russian peer Pushkin, exposes perhaps the now-easily-neglected massivity of his irreverent rebel persona at his time&position. The rest of his literary evaluations, which flow endlessly, are no lesser, and he seems to know as much about novels and poetry as the finest of the modernists would espouse a hundred years later. Perhaps most conspicuous of all, though, is his perpetual driving at his theory of colors, his fixation on which never faltered even into his very last days (his last weeks alive were spent revising that tract), and via the incremental induction of Eckermann into Goethe's mind-set on the topic the reader can learn to appreciate it, too - no matter how permanently dubious Goethe's need to externalize colors is, the resulting methodology of observation produces interesting effects, and there is no shortage of hands-on field observation, guided by Goethe, in the book. Yet even the quixotic fallacies contribute to the book, for they humanize the novel as we observe Goethe, eminently astute and successful at everything else, carry his obsession&narcissism a smidgeon too far and become identifiably&conceivably human.
May 23, 2020
The renowned German writer Goethe who is the “coiner” of the term Weltliteratur declared on January 31, 1827 to his assistant and close friend Eckermann: “National literature is now rather an unmeaning term; the epoch of world literature [Weltliteratur] is at hand, and every one must strive to hasten its approach” (Eckermann 1850: 351). This casually formulated and articulated appeal that captured the Zeitgeist (spirit of the time) so perfectly that it would gradually become the mantra of the anti-nationalist intellectuals, writers and “internationalist” scholars of Comparative Literature (which had progressively been established as an autonomous cross-cultural academic discipline in Europe throughout the 19th and early 20th centuries). Given that what inspired Goethe to make such a statement was principally his exposure to a Chinese novel –i.e. reading experience of a non-European literary text in translation– which he found very remarkable, it should not be considered only as a plea for “de-nationalization,” but also “de-centralization” of literature and literary canonization.
Excerpt from the following book chapter: Devrim Çetin Güven (2019) "Non-European Literature in Translation: A Plea for the Counter-Canonization of Weltliteratur"
https://www.peterlang.com/view/978363...
In book: Shaping the Field of Translation in Japanese ↔ Turkish Contexts I, Edition: 1, Chapter: 3, Publisher: Peter Lang
Excerpt from the following book chapter: Devrim Çetin Güven (2019) "Non-European Literature in Translation: A Plea for the Counter-Canonization of Weltliteratur"
https://www.peterlang.com/view/978363...
In book: Shaping the Field of Translation in Japanese ↔ Turkish Contexts I, Edition: 1, Chapter: 3, Publisher: Peter Lang
December 7, 2025
1001 böcker
Sidan 42, mening 1
”Kanske kommer fiskaren lyckas er, men kanske icke jägaren.”
Sidan 42, mening 1
”Kanske kommer fiskaren lyckas er, men kanske icke jägaren.”
August 23, 2025
Questo libro assomiglia un po' ad un vangelo discreto rispetto ad un Goethe nelle vesti di filosofo antico e uomo di mondo.
Goethe si approfittò di Eckermann, e con tutta la sua sicumera condiscendente gli "concesse di beneficiare del suo benefico influsso" in cambio di "un modesto ma importante supporto negli anni della vecchiaia".
In poche parole, Goethe vide un giovane ingenuo e capace e gli fece fare moltissimi lavori noiosi di natura editoriale, vi si appoggiò per conversare, per allontanare la noia e sentirsi ancora un grande spirito guida.
Non posso allontanare un senso di pena per l'ingenua fedeltà di Eckermann, fedeltà che peraltro ammiro. Il suo ritratto di Goethe è pulito in modo che piacerebbe a Goethe, come una specie di propaganda, abbastanza blanda da non passare per falsa e comunque abbastanza riuscita da comunicare la serenità che voleva.
Ci sono senza dubbio ottime massime, ma il tutto risulta "ottuso, torpido, sognante" (73).
Con Goethe ho sempre avuto un rapporto di amore e di odio. Amore perché senza dubbio era una persona di gusto eccellente e intelligenza non comune. Odio perché era un istrione tremendo.
Da un punto di vista oggettivo, era un critico di primo rango e un talento di secondo. Abilissimo a sfruttare il circolo di uomini più grandi di lui, ammirevole per l'accortezza con cui visse una vita agevole, contenuta e seppe ispirare una certa grandezza di spirito, dettata più che altro dall'accettazione dei suoi limiti:
"L'uomo non è nato per risolvere i problemi del mondo, ma per scoprirli e tenersi al limite dell'intelligibile. Le sue facoltà non bastano a misurare le trasformazioni dell'universo. Volere portare la razionalità nel mondo, visto il suo limite, è un'impresa vana." p. 126
Poi però parla con un'alterigia invecchiata male di come a lui sia toccato "l'errore di Newton". Si riferisce alla teoria dei colori.
Naturalmente Newton aveva ragione, e Goethe torto. Quello che trovo fastidioso in Goethe è che appare come se usasse solo una parte di quello che potrebbe, eppure questa "nascosta" forza è sempre rimandata al fatto che ha "vissuto bene". Ad ogni pagina è come se dicesse: "così ho dosato la creatività. così si doveva. la parte restante la tengo per vivere e osservare il bello, voi fate come potete." E se ne cammina via o se ne sta beato, per poi dolcemente cambiare discorso e mostrarvi una bella incisione.
Ha costruito un'inflazione della valutazione di se stesso facendo credere che celasse quello che in realtà non aveva.
La sua incredibile sicurezza nel criticare l'ottica di Newton, non avendo la minima idea che l'essenziale di una teoria scientifica è il valore predittivo, ha qualcosa di persino ridicolo. Il fisico Sallstrom ( https://pscolour.eu/English/bluesky.htm ) cerca di farne un'ammirevole apologia, sostenendo che Goethe fosse più interessato al cosa, alla causa formalis dell'apparenza, senza cercare un significato dietro i fenomeni (cioè la loro causa effettiva).
Neppure Sallstrom però nega che Goethe confonde le condizioni con le cause, che sono conoscenze completamente diverse, dove la conoscenza delle condizioni è evidentemente inferiore. Vi piacerebbe di più sapere le condizioni in cui appare il grano o le cause che lo fanno prosperare?
Goethe non è equivoco su questo: per lui non si deve cercare dietro i fenomeni, e Newton ha commesso un errore.
Per ciò possiamo dire che Goethe avesse frainteso. Se non avesse parlato di "errore" di Newton forse avremmo potuto dire che, per Goethe, le cose andavano già bene al suo tempo in termini di conoscenza delle cause effettive, per cui era meglio rapportarsi con amorevolezza all'ambiente e alla natura con un approccio simile al suo.
Ma signori, la scienza ci ha portato di certo rischi, ma i suoi pericoli derivano da decisioni avventate e stupide più che dalla scienza stessa. Chiunque neghi l'indubbio benessere che la scienza ci ha portato non merita di usufruirne.
Il tono del libro è rilassante, si legge bene, e l'edizione I Millenni è bellissima. Si leggono bene i caratteri, le pagine sono grandi, e ci sono delle illustrazioni meravigliose di dipinti e incisioni.
Ripeto: Goethe aveva un gusto eccellente. Alcune sue considerazioni sono precise e frutto di un'intelligenza straordinaria:
p.106 la vera forza [nelle opere letterarie] sono i motivi. [p.e. un motivo è una ragazza malinconica che passeggia in un bosco].
p.113 La comprensibilità di un dramma è più importante delle sue leggi. [p.e. se non servono unità i tempo, luogo e azione per CAPIRE il dramma, bisogna usare altri mezzi].
p.132 Troppi giovani mancano di relazione con l'oggettività. Se chiedi di scrivere un personaggio che ritorna ad Amburgo, si concentrano solo sui sentimenti, col risultato che potrebbe esssere un personaggio che torna anche a Roma.
p.166 "Ciò che rende liberi non è rifiutarsi di riconoscere qualcosa sopra di noi. Onorandolo dimostriamo ciò che in noi è elevato e di essere degni di stargli alla pari."
E ci sono anche osservazioni psicologiche e atteggiamenti sociali di cui Goethe è un maestro, a cui io stesso sono inferiore.
Ma attenzione. Ci sono persone che sanno fare benissimo 2 cose per credere se stesse, e far credere, di essere più grandi di quello che sono.
1. Selezionare le condizioni che sanno controllare. Goethe visse sempre nella piccola città di Weimar, dove non aveva particolare concorrenza. Goethe organizzava e partecipava a moltissime visite, da cui aveva un'impareggiabile capacità di assorbire nozioni da persone di grande intelligenza, peraltro rimanendo simpatico e ospitale.
2. Selezionare le persone che ci facciano risplendere, vuoi per l'occasione o vuoi per la loro inferiorità, definita o indotta. Eckermann per esempio è una specie di discepolo.
Ma Goethe non fu mai un poeta della grandezza di Schiller, o Byron, o, se è per questo, Emily Bronte. Quella potenza ipersensibile che oscilla tra l'estasi e la rabbia non furono mai sue. E neppure furono sue le ossessioni e l'intelligenza suprema di un Newton o di un Leibniz.
Note divertenti. Goethe dichiara (p.70) di essere un monarchico, e che i monarchici "non devono mettersi a fare discorsi. Devono agire e tagliare teste." E nella stessa pagina dice qualcosa di peraltro giustissimo, ovvero che in una società ideale ognuno fa il lavoro più consono al proprio talento e alla propria maestria.
Devo dire che leggere in parallelo Dyson che mi parla dell'origine della vita da proteine e acidi nucleici parassiti ha conferito una sfumatura ironica a questa lettura.
Consiglio comunque il libro in ogni momento di blocco, di voglia di qualcosa di non pesante ma comunque non sciocco. L'edizione poi è da lodare. Concludo dicendo che Goethe mi ha insegnato molte cose, alcune che sapevo già. Una volta lessi in un libro che qualcuno aveva consigliato ad un altro di leggere Eco. "Perché lui è un genio?" "No, ma ha scritto cose interessanti".
Questo è il mio sentimento su Goethe in generale. Quando non fa l'istrione e le spara grosse, vedesi gli autopanegirici nel Viaggio in Italia, quando decanta la sua capacità di vedere subito il particolare nell'insieme etc. allora da quello che ha fatto emana un senso di serenità benefico. Nella vita reale, penso che la capacità di ottenere un simile clima dipenda da una grande intelligenza e dalla fortuna. Goethe seppe minimizzare la fortuna e usò la sua intelligenza climatica per costruirsi una vita da intellettuale. Invidio la calma della sua vita, che ritengo attribuibile piuttosto ad un'intelligenza sociale, e meno il suo talento, nonostante molte espressioni che mi sento di condividere, p.e. l'oscurità umana che attinge bellezza alla natura.
Goethe si approfittò di Eckermann, e con tutta la sua sicumera condiscendente gli "concesse di beneficiare del suo benefico influsso" in cambio di "un modesto ma importante supporto negli anni della vecchiaia".
In poche parole, Goethe vide un giovane ingenuo e capace e gli fece fare moltissimi lavori noiosi di natura editoriale, vi si appoggiò per conversare, per allontanare la noia e sentirsi ancora un grande spirito guida.
Non posso allontanare un senso di pena per l'ingenua fedeltà di Eckermann, fedeltà che peraltro ammiro. Il suo ritratto di Goethe è pulito in modo che piacerebbe a Goethe, come una specie di propaganda, abbastanza blanda da non passare per falsa e comunque abbastanza riuscita da comunicare la serenità che voleva.
Ci sono senza dubbio ottime massime, ma il tutto risulta "ottuso, torpido, sognante" (73).
Con Goethe ho sempre avuto un rapporto di amore e di odio. Amore perché senza dubbio era una persona di gusto eccellente e intelligenza non comune. Odio perché era un istrione tremendo.
Da un punto di vista oggettivo, era un critico di primo rango e un talento di secondo. Abilissimo a sfruttare il circolo di uomini più grandi di lui, ammirevole per l'accortezza con cui visse una vita agevole, contenuta e seppe ispirare una certa grandezza di spirito, dettata più che altro dall'accettazione dei suoi limiti:
"L'uomo non è nato per risolvere i problemi del mondo, ma per scoprirli e tenersi al limite dell'intelligibile. Le sue facoltà non bastano a misurare le trasformazioni dell'universo. Volere portare la razionalità nel mondo, visto il suo limite, è un'impresa vana." p. 126
Poi però parla con un'alterigia invecchiata male di come a lui sia toccato "l'errore di Newton". Si riferisce alla teoria dei colori.
Naturalmente Newton aveva ragione, e Goethe torto. Quello che trovo fastidioso in Goethe è che appare come se usasse solo una parte di quello che potrebbe, eppure questa "nascosta" forza è sempre rimandata al fatto che ha "vissuto bene". Ad ogni pagina è come se dicesse: "così ho dosato la creatività. così si doveva. la parte restante la tengo per vivere e osservare il bello, voi fate come potete." E se ne cammina via o se ne sta beato, per poi dolcemente cambiare discorso e mostrarvi una bella incisione.
Ha costruito un'inflazione della valutazione di se stesso facendo credere che celasse quello che in realtà non aveva.
La sua incredibile sicurezza nel criticare l'ottica di Newton, non avendo la minima idea che l'essenziale di una teoria scientifica è il valore predittivo, ha qualcosa di persino ridicolo. Il fisico Sallstrom ( https://pscolour.eu/English/bluesky.htm ) cerca di farne un'ammirevole apologia, sostenendo che Goethe fosse più interessato al cosa, alla causa formalis dell'apparenza, senza cercare un significato dietro i fenomeni (cioè la loro causa effettiva).
Neppure Sallstrom però nega che Goethe confonde le condizioni con le cause, che sono conoscenze completamente diverse, dove la conoscenza delle condizioni è evidentemente inferiore. Vi piacerebbe di più sapere le condizioni in cui appare il grano o le cause che lo fanno prosperare?
Goethe non è equivoco su questo: per lui non si deve cercare dietro i fenomeni, e Newton ha commesso un errore.
Per ciò possiamo dire che Goethe avesse frainteso. Se non avesse parlato di "errore" di Newton forse avremmo potuto dire che, per Goethe, le cose andavano già bene al suo tempo in termini di conoscenza delle cause effettive, per cui era meglio rapportarsi con amorevolezza all'ambiente e alla natura con un approccio simile al suo.
Ma signori, la scienza ci ha portato di certo rischi, ma i suoi pericoli derivano da decisioni avventate e stupide più che dalla scienza stessa. Chiunque neghi l'indubbio benessere che la scienza ci ha portato non merita di usufruirne.
Il tono del libro è rilassante, si legge bene, e l'edizione I Millenni è bellissima. Si leggono bene i caratteri, le pagine sono grandi, e ci sono delle illustrazioni meravigliose di dipinti e incisioni.
Ripeto: Goethe aveva un gusto eccellente. Alcune sue considerazioni sono precise e frutto di un'intelligenza straordinaria:
p.106 la vera forza [nelle opere letterarie] sono i motivi. [p.e. un motivo è una ragazza malinconica che passeggia in un bosco].
p.113 La comprensibilità di un dramma è più importante delle sue leggi. [p.e. se non servono unità i tempo, luogo e azione per CAPIRE il dramma, bisogna usare altri mezzi].
p.132 Troppi giovani mancano di relazione con l'oggettività. Se chiedi di scrivere un personaggio che ritorna ad Amburgo, si concentrano solo sui sentimenti, col risultato che potrebbe esssere un personaggio che torna anche a Roma.
p.166 "Ciò che rende liberi non è rifiutarsi di riconoscere qualcosa sopra di noi. Onorandolo dimostriamo ciò che in noi è elevato e di essere degni di stargli alla pari."
E ci sono anche osservazioni psicologiche e atteggiamenti sociali di cui Goethe è un maestro, a cui io stesso sono inferiore.
Ma attenzione. Ci sono persone che sanno fare benissimo 2 cose per credere se stesse, e far credere, di essere più grandi di quello che sono.
1. Selezionare le condizioni che sanno controllare. Goethe visse sempre nella piccola città di Weimar, dove non aveva particolare concorrenza. Goethe organizzava e partecipava a moltissime visite, da cui aveva un'impareggiabile capacità di assorbire nozioni da persone di grande intelligenza, peraltro rimanendo simpatico e ospitale.
2. Selezionare le persone che ci facciano risplendere, vuoi per l'occasione o vuoi per la loro inferiorità, definita o indotta. Eckermann per esempio è una specie di discepolo.
Ma Goethe non fu mai un poeta della grandezza di Schiller, o Byron, o, se è per questo, Emily Bronte. Quella potenza ipersensibile che oscilla tra l'estasi e la rabbia non furono mai sue. E neppure furono sue le ossessioni e l'intelligenza suprema di un Newton o di un Leibniz.
Note divertenti. Goethe dichiara (p.70) di essere un monarchico, e che i monarchici "non devono mettersi a fare discorsi. Devono agire e tagliare teste." E nella stessa pagina dice qualcosa di peraltro giustissimo, ovvero che in una società ideale ognuno fa il lavoro più consono al proprio talento e alla propria maestria.
Devo dire che leggere in parallelo Dyson che mi parla dell'origine della vita da proteine e acidi nucleici parassiti ha conferito una sfumatura ironica a questa lettura.
Consiglio comunque il libro in ogni momento di blocco, di voglia di qualcosa di non pesante ma comunque non sciocco. L'edizione poi è da lodare. Concludo dicendo che Goethe mi ha insegnato molte cose, alcune che sapevo già. Una volta lessi in un libro che qualcuno aveva consigliato ad un altro di leggere Eco. "Perché lui è un genio?" "No, ma ha scritto cose interessanti".
Questo è il mio sentimento su Goethe in generale. Quando non fa l'istrione e le spara grosse, vedesi gli autopanegirici nel Viaggio in Italia, quando decanta la sua capacità di vedere subito il particolare nell'insieme etc. allora da quello che ha fatto emana un senso di serenità benefico. Nella vita reale, penso che la capacità di ottenere un simile clima dipenda da una grande intelligenza e dalla fortuna. Goethe seppe minimizzare la fortuna e usò la sua intelligenza climatica per costruirsi una vita da intellettuale. Invidio la calma della sua vita, che ritengo attribuibile piuttosto ad un'intelligenza sociale, e meno il suo talento, nonostante molte espressioni che mi sento di condividere, p.e. l'oscurità umana che attinge bellezza alla natura.
January 22, 2018
Eckermann was Goethe's private secretary for the last 9 years of Goethe's life. In this book Eckermann gives account of conversations he's had with Goethe about Goethe's works, other literati's works, literature, philosophy, nature, religion and many other subjects. It is with caution though that ones has to listen to Goethe's thoughts as, although Goethe dictated some of his speeches/statements to Eckermann, Eckermann also added, removed or edited some of them. Still, it's fascinating to listen to as Goethe's mind is quite something else.
February 3, 2019
You obtain the view and the company of an excellent man. The conversations takes a lot of ideas and projects at the time, Goethe predict the rise of the USA as the world leading country, he suspect that the German patriotism someday will do something really really stupid, and also the dream of a unified Europe as Napoleon almost complete. You have a great time here, I read it 15 years ago an still this book lives on me.
August 14, 2013
Interesting insight into Goethe's opinions, character, and the world he lived in. Long-lived and established in society, Goethe's memories stretch from the Seven Years War in the 1760s to the July Monarchy in the 1830s -- leaving him with a moderate conservative sensibility. Worth a read, but (at least in this account) he falls far short of the sparkle of Boswell's Johnson.
August 7, 2021
Het verbaast me niet dat Boudewijn Büch zo van dit boek hield. Met Eckermann deelde hij immers een absolute devotie voor Goethe, terwijl zijn schrijfstijl, waar enthousiasme altijd de overhand kreeg op elegantie, ook wel op die van Eckermann lijkt. Aan de waarde van de inhoud van de Gesprekken twijfel ik niet, maar als boek vind ik het maar een middelmatige verzameling.
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