Plato, Socrates, and the Dialogues

by Michael Sugrue

Socrates was driven by a love for truth so great that he suffered death rather than give up his search. Though he never wrote down his thoughts, he had a brilliant pupil in Plato, who immortalized his teacher's legacy in 35 timeless dialogues that laid the philosophical basis for Western civilization.

Professor Michael Sugrue of Princeton University brings the Socratic quest for truth alive in these lectures, which discuss ideas that are as vital today as they were 25 centuries ago. Ideas about truth, justice, love, beauty, courage, and wisdom. Ideas that can change lives and reveal the world in new ways to the true student.

Professor Sugrue reveals the inner structure, action, and meaning of 17 of Plato's greatest dialogues, making this course an indispensable companion for anyone interested in philosophy in general or Platonic thought in particular.

Genres: Philosophy, History, Nonfiction, Audiobook, Classics, Religion, Ancient History

12 pages, Audio CD

First published January 1, 1996

Reviews

[Irena Pasvinter · Rating 5 out of 5]

Not long before I started this course, I'd listened to another set of lectures on Socrates, Plato and Aristoteles by Robert C. Bartlett. So I was a bit wary of these courses being too similar, perhaps repetitive.

But my worries proved to be unfounded. Of course, both courses covered roughly the same topics, but the approach, the presentation, the analysis, the conclusions were very different. I loved both courses, but perhaps the most interesting part wasn't the material itself but the difference in its interpretation.

Some of Michael Surgue's conclusions seemed a bit more extravagant, but he mentioned those were his own ideas and not necessarily the widely accepted consensus in the field.

Michael Surgue actually referred to the matter of the interpretation in the final lecture and provided some interesting examples of well-known philosophers who all had very different perception of Platonic dialogues. Basically, there are as many opinions as philosophers.;)

Robert C. Bartlett was enthusiastic about his subject, but Michael Surgue really stands out by the passionate intensity of his enthusiasm. As part of his fervor, he often speaks with truly formidable speed, without losing clarity of representation. No wonder he often has to pause for a drink of water.;) Some of the reviewers find these clearly audible gulping interruptions annoying, but it didn't bother me -- I took it as part of his impressive performance.

Michael Surgue constantly stresses the importance of actually reading the Platonic dialogues and not just listening to lectures about them. In the last lecture he allowed himself a few refreshingly politically incorrect statements along the lines of "If you read the Platonic dialogues and don't come to admire them, something is wrong with you." Or "Plato, he's like the Grand Canyon. Can you imagine not admiring the Grand Canyon? Seriously, if you don't, something is wrong with you!" Of course, this is said sort of jokingly, but there is a grain of truth in every joke, as the saying goes.

So far I can't tell if something is wrong with me or not, because I haven't actually read any of the dialogues yet. Not that I would mind having this kind of wrong on my resume.;)

[عدنان العبار · Rating 5 out of 5]

I remember vividly the details of this book. I listened to it every day while going to or returning from work. I would cross the park and the streets and Mount Hope to reach my office, and climb to the fifth floor while the book is playing in my headphones. I remember those days by what I have heard here as I do remember the lectures of Professor Roochnik. The lectures were recorded for the public a long time ago, and they are very enjoyable and interesting, and the lecturer is certainly knowledgeable and great.

I remember the jokes and anecdotes and examples the lecturer uses. Everything here would be retained by memory and the lecturer covers the vast array of Socrates' ideas, as well as the historical backgrounds of the dialogues.

He goes at the dialogues one by one, covering the most important ones, but discussing those he chooses in elaborate detail. I really advise this lecture series to anyone who's interested in Socrates and Platonic ideas. A lot of the ideas presented here will be very controversial, but that is something I quite enjoyed, as I wanted to know what ideas exactly are being questioned in Platonic dialogues, and it turns out to be many.

***

I read this book again this week to remember my beautiful days at Rochester, walking through Whipple Park to the University, and back, from my office on the fifth floor to my apartment late at night (11:30 PM). I deeply enjoyed this book and absolutely loved Michael Sugrue. This is indispensable for anyone who enjoys reading Socratic dialogues religiously.

[Mario Russo · Rating 5 out of 5]

Considerado um dos livros mais importantes do ocidente, e pedra fundadora da filosofia, diz o professor Sugrue que o livro ja foi tão estudado, que quando se referem a ele, igualmente à Bíblia, as pessoas citam a pagina e o trecho direto. Leandro Karnal disse uma vez que se a biblioteca tivesse pegando fogo e só pudesse salvar 5 livros, além da Biblia e Hamlet, ele salvaria a Republica. Assim como Jesus, Socrates nunca escreveu nada, a Republica basicamente é uma compilação de dialogos socráticos, tendo em vista que Socrates foi mentor de Platão. Quado sentenciado à morte, Socrates teria rido, e dito a seus discipulos que a morte não era algo a se temer, e menos ainda pra ele que sempre buscou uma vida digna e que buscava a ajudar e educar os atenienses. Tudo dito e considerado, acho justo que quando as proximas testemunhas de Jeová aparecerem por aqui eu diga: Você tem um minuto para ouvir a palavra de Sócrates?

[Jonathan · Rating 5 out of 5]

Excellent. I do not think I can recommend this highly enough. If you are coming to the dialogues with only a cursory familiarity (me) then I believe this will smooth out the learning curve dramatically. Prof. Sugrue is an engaging speaker who is passionate, fast paced and well spoken.

One of the more interesting lectures occurred near the end when he related the unchanging regime of the Republic as a Hellenized version of the river valley systems that never experienced an Ionian enlighten - where research into natural, physical explanations for the world started to chip away at teleological myths.

[Jim · Rating 3 out of 5]

"Go play with the Dialogues", says Professor Sugrue in the last lecture of this set. I think that just about sums up the other lectures as well...with Sugrue playing with Plato's dialogues in no particular order, with little or no context surrounding his one-sided dialectic with us.
I jumped into these lectures after listening to Dr Roochnik's set on the 'Republic' (and reading the 'Republic' as well), expecting the same, thorough treatment of some pretty heavy-duty examinations of Plato's other works. What I got was a rapid-fire delivery (often interrupted by a pause for a drink...probably water, but who knows?) that skimmed over some pretty complex arguments/discussions with a great variety of Socrates' (Plato's) interlocutors. I found in the Roochnik 'Rupublic' lectures that the devil is in the details...or the meaning of the dialogue is not the conclusion, but the discourse in reaching that conclusion.
I was somewhat off-put by the use of terms like 'stupid' and 'dumb' when referring to Socrates' interlocutors...this device may work well in a class room, but doesn't translate to audio lectures well.
In the end, I recommend these lectures mostly as an introduction to one person's interpretation of Plato's dialogues...mostly because (as the good Dr Sugrue says), it urges you to think for yourself, and, of course, hydrate.
As the great philosopher Master Yoda has observed, "...sale and coupon have you must "

[Erik · Rating 3 out of 5]

I don't have time to say a lot here. Overall I found this series of lectures interesting. I felt that the lecturer has a tendency to over praise and sometimes borders on deification of Socrates and Plato. But I suppose everyone needs some religion and this is the one he has chosen in place of belief in the Judeo-Christian religions. Listening to this may push me into actually reading the copy of Plato's Republic that has been sitting on my shelves for years.

[Tammam Aloudat · Rating 5 out of 5]

I have immensely enjoyed listening to Professor Surgrue's lectures on Plato and the Socratic dialogues. I have listened to them as I am reading the dialogues themselves and I will admit that without his keen observation and analysis, my understanding of the dialogues would have been greatly diminished.

First, to answer some of the comments here, this is NOT a book narrated in the norm of Audible or other audiobooks. This is a set of lectures. It is true that Professor Sugrue speaks at different tempos and gets excited, drinks sips of water as he speaks, and in many cases giggles to himself as he remembers details of the dialogues. In my view, this adds rather than takes out of the lectures. In a way, I wish I was in the audience to see another dimension in the expressions he must have had delivering those lectures. Professor Sugrue is passionate about the topic and knows it very well with that in mind, he delivers a set of very good lectures that can be understood and appreciated both by the philosophical novice as well as the grounded.

As for the content, the lectures are about the dialogues rather than are the dialogues (a pun here on the being and becoming which is a theme in the dialogues). He doesn't quote the dialogues verbatim with only very few and short exceptions. The lectures tell us about the setting and context of the dialogues, about the interlocutors, and about how things go and why they go as they do but doesn't deprive us of the opportunity of going and reading them in Plato's words and enjoying them with the added appreciation this analysis gives. That being said, I would gladly listen to these lectures again once I have finished reading the dialogues a couple of times.

Another appreciated character is the order in which the dialogues are set. It is difficult to understand the references if the dialogues are ordered in a certain way that doesn't appreciate Plato's progression in thought and opinion. And because of their fame, many people are prone to reading the republic and symposium before any other dialogues which would make it difficult to properly appreciate them. These lectures order the dialogues in a way that helps us understand the thought and progression of Plato in a more logical way.

Very enjoyable and appreciated, these lectures have made my walks everyday all the more entertaining.

[Ben Root · Rating 5 out of 5]

As insightful and moving a lecture series as any i’ve had the pleasure of receiving. Prof. Sugrue wholly paints a thought-provoking tapestry of the dialogues designed to be timeless. Unlike many readings, translations, or lectures on the topic, Sugrue is upfront with his biases and limitations, and from the beginning you know just how far down the divided line you are from receiving the real word become flesh of Socrates. Yet, the near celestial beauty that is constantly and fervorously gestured at here is worth studying in its own right. I particularly loved Sugrue’s depiction of the dialogues like an architectural blueprint needing to be viewed not in linear construction but from a birds eye view to find the form the telos and the eros of his subject. Only then, he says, can one understand the gravitas of the body of work attempted here.

If Plato’s construction of Socrates is designed to teach one how to think, then Sugrue’s lecture is designed to teach one how to read and maybe more importantly, how to find the divinity within the limits of human language. “Go play with the dialogues” is how Sugrue finishes this series, and I think that’s the only appropriate takeaway. This isn’t a subject with finality, but it is instead a prompt-filled outline for a journey of the spirit.

[Tsun Tsun · Rating 3 out of 5]

Kinda pretentious and requires a lot of previous knowledge about the subject.

[Rachel · Rating 5 out of 5]

Prof. Sugrue is a gem. We started out just watching his lectures for fun on YouTube. He’s a great storyteller who loves what he teaches. His lectures give just enough insight to make reading the platonic dialogues themselves very engaging and rewarding. One of my favorite things Prof. Sugrue said was “Before you read the dialogues for the first time, you’re going to want to read them 3 or 4 times.” I don’t think I would have tackled reading Plato on my own but now can’t imagine being content not to revisit the dialogues over and over.

[Patrick · Rating 4 out of 5]

I picked up this lecture series primarily looking for a bit of a refresher on the more important dialogues, but hoping for some new insight and perhaps at look at some of the lesser known, more rarely studied dialogues. I wouldn't say the lecturer gets into too obscure dialogues, but that's understandable given that there are only 16 lectures and a good many more platonic dialogues to cover. Otherwise, I pretty much got what I was looking for. It would be helpful to read the dialogue in question before listening to the lecture, but otherwise, the subject is presented in a way that I think most listeners can follow well enough even if they are new to Plato. But there's also a good deal of in-depth exploration of the topics such that there's something for you even if you've read a good deal of Plato before. The lecturer is a history professor and thus provides a bit more background on the characters in the dialogues and their symbolic roles in the narrative. While such is often looked at with any study of the dialogues, the depth of symbolic analysis was refreshing.

My only real complaint, and it's not a big one, is that the lecturer is fairly biased. This isn't really surprising for a Plato expert to be biased toward platonic thought, but he is fairly extreme in it. For instance, in one of the later lectures, he literally states that if you don't like Plato and you don't get a lot out of reading the dialogues, there's something seriously wrong with you and/or you're just not getting it. I agree with him to an extent (even if you disagree with many of his points, there is an undeniable wealth of depth and artistic talent in the dialogues), that's a pretty extreme statement. But regardless, one of the key features of Socratic thought is to question even one's own deeply held beliefs. And as a student of this thought, there is still room for introspection and self-evaluation which prevents this from being Plato propaganda that admits of no faults. As he repeats throughout the later lectures, one is not a true student of Socrates until one has attempted to question and refute Socrates. Thus if there's a philosopher I don't mind someone being biased toward, it's Plato, given the introspective nature of his thought.

Overall, this is a solid listen. I expect you'd get the most out of it by reading the relevant dialogues first, but seeing as it's an audio format and I imagine most listeners, like me, are listening specifically because we don't have the time at the moment to be reading, that's not very feasible. But there's certainly plenty to be gained from it regardless. At a bare minimum, if you've never read Plato before, I would recommend reading the Apology and if you have more time, the Republic, as these works offer key insight into the dialectic form that could be useful for putting the lectures into context.

[Vincent Russo · Rating 5 out of 5]

If you don’t recognize the name Michael Sugrue, maybe you recognize these videos that have become wildly popular (in the philosophy YouTube space).

Such an eloquent and well spoken lecturer. His enthusiasm for Plato and Socrates is infectious and the depth of understanding and pedagogy is such an art form.

Reminds me of Jeff Goldblum talking about the dialogues. An absolute pleasure to listen to.

I was saddened to learn that Michael recently passed away. Such a loss, but such a treasure that these lectures were captured.

[Vinicius · Rating 5 out of 5]

10/10
Convinced me I should read Plato

[Joshua · Rating 5 out of 5]

An engaging insight into the meticulous construction of Plato's dialogues. Sugrue clearly has overwhelming love and respect for these texts which is apparent throughout the lectures. At some times I think he overeggs the quality of these texts to a degree where he appears to consider it as 'objectively' amazing, which I personally do not appreciate conceptually. I do not dispute that subjectively the dialogues are mirrors of excellence, but I don't like when phrases such as "if you don't like this work then the problem is with you" being thrown about because that is rather narrow minded. Furthermore, there's a lot of mouth-related noises which will make people with misophonia tweak out. I have this to a lesser degree and found it tolerable.

Overall, I thought this work gave a comprehensive breakdown of Plato's dialogues and has served to ignite within myself a strong desire to reading them, so it has served its purpose maximally. There are a couple of nit-pick criticisms I have levied at it, but they don't detract from the total picture enough for me to give it anything less than 5/5. I would probably give it a 9/10 but you have to round on Goodreads, so it gets a 5.

[Christopher · Rating 4 out of 5]

Great introduction to the dialogues by a man very much in love with them.

[Don Heiman · Rating 5 out of 5]

In 1997 the Teaching Company released Princeton Humanities Professor Michael Sugrue’s exceptional course “Plato, Socrates, and the Dialogues.” The 10 hour course’s has 16 lectures that are divided into three parts: 1) the first set of lectures are about how to use Platonic dialectics to analyze ethical principles, 2) the middle series of lectures focus on using dialogues to better understand 5th century BC morality and epistemology, and 3) the last set of lectures feature the analytical techniques for understanding from a Platonic perspective the legal concepts of wisdom and social life. The 10 hour course has an outstanding guidebook, glossary of terms, annotated bibliography, and historic timeline. The Platonic Socratic techniques described by Prof Sugrue have been taught from 400 BC to our present age in European and western national universities, political governances, and religious communities. The course explains how Platonic-Socratic discourses underpin the evolving principles for analyzing law, situational ethics, metaphysics, diffusion of political power, economic order, and the forces that form the foundation of human earthly and divine love. The course’s central theme is about how future generations can use these Platonic techniques to best live an “examined life.” (P)

[Erik · Rating 3 out of 5]

You could argue for 1 star or for 5 stars. Sugrue clearly knows his Plato and has pretty clear guides to most of the dialogues he chooses to deal with. However, he's more than just a Plato fanboy - in his telling everybody other than Socrates and Plato are horrible and evil. "Nietzsche is evil" is a direct quote and is beyond unprofessional for a serious philosopher. In addition, Sugrue primarily reads Plato aesthetically and is less interested in Plato's philosophy than how Plato is better at epics than Homer, better at tragedy than Aeschylus and Sophocles, better at Aristophanes at comedy - basically the only worthwhile part of classical Greek culture. He basically doesn't care about explaining the theory of forms etc. and has little interest in the actual philosophical arguments.

I think it's worth it to listen to this course if for no other reason to be provoked and to take the aesthetical aspect of the dialogues seriously as long as you can handle how obnoxious Sugrue is.

[Tom Axworthy · Rating 3 out of 5]

Professor Sugrue has a rapid fire delivery in outlining the highlights of Plato's dialogues in 16 lectures. He is a great defender of Plato and glosses over the fact that Plato's prescription for an ideal society is a totalitarian state.( in his old age Plato, in the Laws, came to realize that philosopher kings were in short supply and as Sugure points out recommended as second best a society of statesmen and laws.In real life Plato turned out to be a failure as a political adviser to the ruler of Sicily and his later dialogues reflect his disillusionment).This is a fast paced description of the dialogues and a good introduction -as long as you are aware that Sugrue is light on criticism and heavy on near adulation.

[Thomas · Rating 4 out of 5]

Now that I’ve listened to these lectures, I guess I’ll go ahead and read some of the Socratic Dialogues.

These lectures are pretty interesting. He convinced me to add a couple more dialogues to my reading list. I’m not going to read all of them. It’s just too much. I’m not really a student of philosophy, I’m just curious about things and enjoy learning new stuff.

So now it’s time for me to go ahead and read some Plato as he puts on his Socrates suit and gives me a rough approximation of some of the things Socrates himself might’ve said but mostly things that Plato wrote.

I’m looking forward to finding out what all the fuss is about. Surely something that’s been so incredibly influential to all of Western civilization must be an interesting read, right?

[Jasmine · Rating 4 out of 5]

I honestly really enjoyed this. Michael Sugrue obviously loves ancient Greek philosophy, and he made me almost like it, too. He also allowed me to see connections and make inferences that I wouldn't have before.

I still have not enjoyed any Plato I've read so far (except for Timaeus and Critias). I've read quite a bit of Greek philosophy, and frankly don't enjoy it on a personal level. Although Sugrue's ending note to "go play with the Dialogues" has inspired me to finally get to and read them.

I do like the idea of basically accepting your role in life and playing it to perfection that the author mentioned at the end of the lectures. I think that's a good way to look at life, perhaps.

4 out of 5 ⭐️'s

[Jason · Rating 4 out of 5]

I found this to be a very enjoyable introduction to the dialogues. I'd read the Republic and Trial & Death of Socrates for a previous political philosophy class, but had no exposure to the other material.

The good: the professor has a deep knowledge and contagious love of the material. He helps bring the characters to life and illuminates layers of meaning and nuance that I never would've picked up on.

The bad: the dialogues are presented in a weird order and it made it more challenging to perceive a coherent narrative. There are some dialogues that are quite dense and I would've like to dive deeper into them. I just felt that a single lecture just scratched the surface.

[Joao Reis · Rating 5 out of 5]

Professor Sugrue is the real teacher, when you are so passionate about a subject learning becomes a pleasure and not a challenge.

He brings on many interesting perspectives and comparisons, the most striking ones with Hercules (from Homer) and Jesus Christ.

Socrates never wrote anything so this are potential tales created by Plato to use Socrates as a myth, almost a god like figure. Again something in common with Buddha, Confucius and Jesus!

Highly highly recommended if you are interested in Ancient Greek Philosophy!

[Maymoona · Rating 4 out of 5]

I found the dialogue in the book to be a mixed experience. Some parts were clever and engaging, while others seemed nonsensical, almost as if written under the influence. The misuse of argumentative techniques was apparent, reflecting a trend I've noticed in modern debates. While these linguistic acrobatics can win an argument, they don't necessarily make the position correct. Despite these issues, the book may be a valuable resource for those looking to study and analyze argumentation.

[Mark · Rating 4 out of 5]

Michael Sugrue asserts that Plato is not offering answers but offering a means to learn to think. I'm not sure Plato would agree with that. I believe he thought he was offering answers. However, Sugrue is editorializing on Plato to give him relevance. That's acceptable.

Important questions that remain for me to understand:
what is the dialectic method of learning? Why is it valuable? What does it produce? How do I implement it in my life?

[Daniel · Rating 3 out of 5]

An analysis of the dialogues. If you have never read them, I have, you probably should at least once before listening to this lecture. If you have read them however this is a really good analysis of them that gives you insights that you may not have gotten outside of a classroom.

This is not really a 101 lecture series like most of the rest of the great courses so that's why the lower score. Still very good if you have knowledge of the subject.

[Jen · Rating 3 out of 5]

3 stars for how much I personally got from this audiobook- I wasn’t accessing the 5 or 4 star experience other readers/reviewers mention. I spent two weeks with the audiobook which was more than usual for a 12 hour audiobook and tried listening at various times of day. Managed to finish it but no wish to revisit it as I do with my favourites in the Great Courses/Teaching Company series.

I mainly use my Goodreads reviews to remind myself why I have rated audiobooks the way I have.

[Luis Sanchez · Rating 5 out of 5]

I read this book year and years and many ago years, it was a special Harvard edition I had in my private collection. But I did get the book on impulse....without prior knowledge of the historical legacy congruent with The “vargang” (previous personality) of Eduard Meier. And so was a rather contemplating moment was it was realized.

[Sebastian Beltrán · Rating 5 out of 5]

Provides a very enjoyable introduction into Plato & his thoughts about Socrates and the world.
10/10

It should be mentioned that Michael Sugrue is an amazing presenter and never fails to his lecture worthwhile to listen to.

He recently got his own Youtube Channel which I can recommend you to check out, as this and others are available for free there.

[Selene Peck · Rating 5 out of 5]

Fascinating and brought to terms the layman can understand, this set of lectures is well worth the short time I spent listening. Michael Sugrue is interesting, articulate, funny, and knowledgable. I learned so much from this set of lectures and plan to pursue more study in Plato's own works as Sugrue urges in his down-to-earth and relatable lectures. I highly recommend!

[Charles Reed · Rating 4 out of 5]

86%

So I thought it was really great that we went through a deeper dive in the history of socrates, along with plato and see some of the historical background data that I've been missing.

So I found all this information really nice and valuable, a very interesting analysis that I think overstepped a little bit in the analysis of Socrates but overall it was really well done.